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+--- Thread: Breath of the Wild super thread (/showthread.php?tid=7043)
Breath of the Wild super thread - Dark Jaguar - 2nd May 2017
Well, here's my main thread about this game. I'll put up a detailed review when I'm finally done, but well, I take my sweet time with these things. I still haven't grown sick of it.
They did just recently do some patching to optimize frame rates better and just yesterday added a "voice acting language" option to the game itself. That's two issues resolved.
Breath of the Wild super thread - Great Rumbler - 3rd May 2017
It's pretty good.
Breath of the Wild super thread - Dark Jaguar - 3rd May 2017
Alright, I think we're done here.
Breath of the Wild super thread - Sacred Jellybean - 6th May 2017
Does Link speak in this one, or is he silent, like tradition?
Breath of the Wild super thread - Great Rumbler - 6th May 2017
Link is mute, but everybody else talks.
Breath of the Wild super thread - Dark Jaguar - 7th May 2017
Yep.
Lots of people are saying "it's about time Link finally started getting dialog", but these people don't seem to have a very long memory... I mean, do you REALLY want to see what Nintendo thinks Link's personality is like? Do you really? You might not liiiiike it.
Other M, is the end of that joke.
So yeah, I'm perfectly fine with the Link I project my own reactions onto. I've got my own ideas on what he's thinking, and I'd rather not have Nintendo spoil all that. Well, that said, he's pretty much expressionless throughout this particular adventure. He had a lot more emotions in Wind Waker, for example. Maybe they should at least put in a few more reactions?
Breath of the Wild super thread - A Black Falcon - 7th May 2017
Having Link be mute but everyone else talks is a good solution to the 'you should have voice acting' issue, yes.
Breath of the Wild super thread - Dark Jaguar - 8th May 2017
Well, that's not entirely accurate.
Most characters still talk in the "makes general conversationy noises while text appears" style of previous Zelda games. In fact, even the main characters that do have voices generally still use that method of talking. During the few cut scenes in the game, you can expect voice acting. Otherwise, MAYBE a major character will talk for two lines, then cut to text. It's a bit distracting, honestly, more so than if they'd just gone with text only. This game is voice acted more like Kingdom Hearts than Metal Gear Solid.
Breath of the Wild super thread - Dark Jaguar - 14th June 2017
This game really is about very careful design, ya know.
Breath of the Wild super thread - Dark Jaguar - 30th June 2017
Breath of the Wild super thread - A Black Falcon - 2nd August 2017
So I got the game for Wii U a good week and a half ago, though I'm still quite early in it as I've only played it for parts of a few days -- I was busy with vacation, Splatoon, etc. I did spend a few hours playing the game today, though, so I should say a few things. (Sorry, this is very ramble-ey, but... oh well.)
So far, I got off of the plateau the first day, went south towards the tower south of the start point, then stopped playing partway there after dying a bunch. Today I got to that tower, found a stables and a horse, found and did a few shrines, then started heading towards the next story point, to find Impa. I got up the tower in that area and did a few shrines there along the way and then stopped. So yeah, I'm early but kind of get the idea of the game.
So what do I think? Well, the game has great graphics for sure, and it's easy to play though some of the controls are a bit annoying. I've always hated dual shoulder buttons on controllers, and keep hitting the wrong ones when trying to do the thing for the other button... bah. Also of course it's quite disappointing that they removed all Wii U gamepad integration; seriously, just putting the map on the bottom screen would have been fantastic and there is NO excuse not to do it! "We must make the two versions identical" makes no sense when they are not the same console. At least the motion control elements remain, though I wish that there was an option to look around with the tilt controls all of the time (as in Splatoon), I'd use it! For looking up and down particularly, motion works a lot better than an analog stick. Instead, much like the Wii U version of Wind Waker, you need to use the first-person view to use motion, or the items (bombs, icemaking item, magnet, and such). Why limit motion to only certain items and not just let people use it? It doesn't make much sense, and you'd think that given that this is the third Wii U main Zelda game like this (I presume, if TP HD is the same) they'd have improved on the aiming. Ah well.
Anyway, as for the game itself, this is an open-world game, all right. I've never liked this genre as I'm sure you all know, and I don't love this game either; they're too open-ended to hold my interest. Open-world games feel unfocused and usually lose me very quickly. I don't like having to make choices and these games are all about choice, first. And second, the concept often seems to be "more space" instead of "better gameplay"; just letting you climb all the hills doesn't make the whole game better, it just means you can do the same three things in more places... except really often open-world games are more limited than a more focused experience, since when you are making such a huge world something has to give and it's usually a better story, better and more carefully designed areas (because when you need to make a huge world less attention goes into each bit of it), fewer puzzle elements in the game beyond "how do I get there", and more.
So how does BotW do on that score? In most ways it's a traditional open-world game, just with a fantasy setting, some light Zelda elements here and there that mostly are just namedrops, and a nice map system that lets you put markers on the map where you want, instead of just filling a map with far too many icons. The world is huge, but empty; it takes forever to get from point to point! Fortunately the game does have a pretty good quick-travel system, as you can instantly travel to any tower or shrine that you have reached, but even so getting from place to place takes a long time. While some elements of the controls are similar, the core gameplay of BotW is totally different from any Zelda before. I knew it would be of course, and I am having some fun wandering around, finding shrines, and fighting the badguys, but it's hard to not compare this to other Zelda games and find it wanting.
The game has a large and open world and, unlike past 3d Zelda games, doesn't have a helper character constantly telling you what to do and where to go. Some people love this about the game, but I'm fine with those characters myself and think that they are usually helpful; you need something to help you navigate a game! This game has some things to help you do that, but not a dedicated helper character. But because of that design, people have compared BotW to the original Zelda for the NES. There is some truth to that. However, while I like the original Zelda game, between its high difficulty and too-open design, it is far from my favorite Zelda game. It isn't even my favorite Zelda-ish game on the NES, in fact; StarTropics is, because I prefer its linear style and absence of annoying randomly hidden stuff you need to find like Zelda does. BotW does have far more there to help you than NES games do, fortunately. You have an indicator which helps you find nearby shrines and shrines are often put in not-too-hard-to-find places, quest markers telling you where to go for quests, you can place indicators when in the first-person view that add a marker on your map at the point that you mark, towers (that you go up to reveal the map) are large and easy to find, and more. I know it's early, but I haven't gotten lost yet.
However, about that map... I really wish you could change the colors of the markers you leave, because it'd be nice to be able to mark, like, 'this is a thing to return to' versus 'I got this but it was here'. Or maybe you aren't supposed to mark that latter type? I'd rather do that if I can though...
That's good, but still, the sheer size of the world already has gotten me kind of bored sometimes because of how spread out everything is. Another issue is that from what I've seen and read about the game, BotW has a relatively limited number of enemy types; you see the same few enemies a lot. I referenced this earlier, with how a more linear game -- like all past 3d Zelda games -- has a constantly changing set of enemies and experiences to see as you progress through the game. This game, however, has a huge world, but in some ways less variety than a traditional 3d Zelda game. Combat is simplified versus TP; basically you seem to be able to swing around weapons and that's about it. The game has fewer items and fewer combat moves. The big addition is a physics engine. Now you can roll rocks down hills, start small fires, blow things up, and more. I've only seen a little of this myself, but having seen more online, yes, you can do some cool things... but still, like always with open-world games, it's just a lot of scenarios drawing from that same limited playbook! I'd much rather have fewer but more carefully designed encounters that are each more interesting and fun, versus more things that all blend together because there are so many of them and many are not as special. The different environments do change things up, I'm not far enough in for combat encounters to feel repetitive yet, and I know that there are some monsters which require different strategies such as the Guardians, giant rock monsters, etc... but still, while this game is good, it's not a design style I'll ever like as much as a conventional Zelda game like OoT or TP.
On that note, while there are a lot of reasons why Zelda is one of my favorite videogame franchises, including the action, puzzles, exploration, and more, I need to talk about the "puzzle" element of BotW. Where previous Zelda games have a series of puzzle-heavy dungeons to play through, BotW has a large open world. The puzzle elements come in the aforementioned shrines and in the games' four dungeons, which I haven't seen but kind of sound like expanded shrines conceptually. Each of the 100-plus shrines is very small, and gives you one or two puzzles to solve, or one enemy encounter to defeat. I like the shrines, and if I actually stick with the game for a long time (which is unlikely?) could see wanting to find a lot of them; these are the part of the game that feels the most Zelda-like in the ways that I like Zelda games. But then they end after a couple of minutes and it's back to the too-big-for-its-own-good overworld... ah well. Traditional Zelda dungeons are definitely better, they usually don't leave me wanting more like BotW shrines do. They also don't usually have much in the way of combat in them, which works with how short they are, but hurts them compared to past 3d Zeldas -- the nine shrines I've gone through so far, all combined, would not be as great as the first dungeon of a traditional 3d Zelda, I think, though the puzzles (or fight, in one) in them are often pretty cool stuff.
Another way this game is very different from past Zelda games is how it handles items. You get all of the key items right at the beginning of the game, which I really dislike in a Zelda game; you should get things as you progress through a game, not just be given everything right at the start! Yes, this is also something I don't like about A Link Between Worlds, that you can just get the items in any order. Good game design is about having a steady increase of challenge and area design as you move through a game, not just a flat line! No, I don't like scaled difficulty. This game isn't scaled, fortunately, it just lets you go anywhere while only lightly guiding you, so BotW has that over stuff like the TES games (Oblivion and on), at least. However, there are only four of those key items, which is way too few. Now, some weapons are usable in interesting ways, to light things on fire, blow things around with bursts of air, and that's great, but isn't a full replacement. You also have a VERY limited inventory at the start; if there's a way to expand that I badly need to do it, because the weapon inventory particularly is way too small. When you combine the tiny inventory with the constant need for new weapons because of the annoying weapon-durability system that requires you to constantly switch weapons while fighting because of how fragile everything is, it gets annoying fast.
The other thing the game does is it lets you collect a lot of types of foods and monster parts... and fortunately they use their own separate inventory section, and you seem to be able to hold a lot of the stuff right from the start, unlike weapons. That is good. You can then cook at certain points to make food or potions. It's an okay idea, though I've always greatly disliked crafting. At least this crafting system is fairly simple and isn't the main focus of the game... thank goodness. The issue here is, there is no ingame recipe list at all, so either I've got to just not care much about what I make, try to memorize it all, or look up a list online. This is really bad game design with no excuse, you need an ingame recipe book in anything like this.
Finally, graphics and sound. As I said, the game looks great. For overall art style I do think that TP has the best art design ever in the franchise, but this game builds on the "cartoony but with a bit of realism" style of Skyward Sword, but probably because of the better hardware it looks even better than that game does. This is a really nice looking game. Aurally, however, the game seriously lacks, as most of your adventure is done to just sound effects! Previously the Zelda series always had some of the best soundtracks ever in gaming, but this one ditches that in favor of a very understated, minimalist soundtrack. It works I guess, but it's completely forgettable and average in ways Zelda music never has been before and that is very disappointing.
So overall, a few hours in, Breath of the Wild is a good but flawed game that takes the Zelda series in a direction I wish it hadn't. It was probably inevitable that Zelda would eventually succumb to the open-world tide, but while there definitely are things I like about this game and I will keep playing it, I, at least, wish that Nintendo had made another traditional 3d Zelda game. But with the rapturous reception this game received, will we ever see one of those again? That's sad to think about... but we'll see, I guess.
With this game, here's the question I am thinking about above all others: if this was some other game, nearly identical to this one but not Zelda, would I be playing it? And if I was, would I stick with it? I'm leaning towards "maybe" and "probably not" as the answers to those questions. However, is that because of my just not giving it enough of a chance, because of my very longstanding bias against open-world games? ... Maybe? Right now I don't know.
Breath of the Wild super thread - Dark Jaguar - 3rd August 2017
"Some other game nearly identical to this one but not Zelda" is Horizon Zero Dawn, and I understand it's pretty good. What do you think of how this game handles finding new things to explore? I much prefer how it uses the landscape itself to guide you instead of a bunch of markers in a UI. As you already know I really loved this game and would love to see them improve on this formula next time. Oh, and may all helper characters be mute.
As far as markers, the game gives you all sorts of icons to use. Just pick ones to represent certain things and be consistent. I use skulls to mark the various giant "world boss" enemies all over the map. I use a gem icon to indicate I need to come back later.
Breath of the Wild super thread - A Black Falcon - 3rd August 2017
In the collection thread you mentioned 'don't follow the main plotline', but that, of course, is like the opposite of how I usually do things. There are a lot of things to see on the map, though I imagine most are just the usual slight rehashes of the same stuff, and if you mean 'and you'll need to go off the main paths to find them' that is probably true. But even if a lot is the same stuff I won't say that there's nothing to that, because seeing interesting places in games can be pretty cool.
I just would not want to randomly wander in order to find those places, that is not how I do things. I of course don't just randomly wander! It's pointless, or worse, boring -- think of grinding in RPGs, which is similar in that your only objective is "level up" and not "get to a specific place". Either in games or in real life, if I'm going somewhere (in a game, for a walk, what have you) I want to know where I'm going before I start out. If you had to explore to reveal the map that'd be a pretty big thing pushing me to explore (and yes I wish this game did that, video above or no), but since it gives you each area's map all at once all, what I have done so far after getting off the plateau are going towards either a tower or the next quest marker, while following shrine-sensor pings along the way when it goes off since those can be fun. That works. Maybe at some point I'll try going to other map points though. As for on the plateau, there I just had to explore it, but it's small enough that that's quite reasonable.
I will say though, they really don't give you any help with how to figure out how to survive in the cold area... like, you need to figure out how to cook those cold-resistant herbs into something which gives you longer-term cold resistance pretty much, just eating them one at a time won't last long. And then if you happen to go to the right place (as I fortunately did) you get that cold-resistant outfit at the top of a mountain there, making that whole effort kind of pointless... hmm, it was nice, but from a design standpoint I'm not sure what I think of that.
Dark Jaguar Wrote:"Some other game nearly identical to this one but not Zelda" is Horizon Zero Dawn, and I understand it's pretty good. What do you think of how this game handles finding new things to explore? I much prefer how it uses the landscape itself to guide you instead of a bunch of markers in a UI. As you already know I really loved this game and would love to see them improve on this formula next time.While I've seen videos of them and such, I don't think I've played a lot of any of the many open-world games that have a map filled with icons, so I'm not sure which style I prefer... though this is probably better, since I like being able to put the markers on the map myself.
Quote: Oh, and may all helper characters be mute.Do you mean the actual sounds? Navi's voice was annoying sometimes, sure, but the things they say are almost always very helpful.
Quote:As far as markers, the game gives you all sorts of icons to use. Just pick ones to represent certain things and be consistent. I use skulls to mark the various giant "world boss" enemies all over the map. I use a gem icon to indicate I need to come back later.Beyond the color issue (which is a problem), the bigger issue is that apparently you only have 100 icons for this whole huge map, which isn't nearly enough! You need way more than that to cover it all... but yeah, the suggestion to use other icons is a good one, that would help -- marking weapon chests with the sword icon, etc. You need to do things like that in the Etrian Odyssey games as well, and yeah, the most important thing is to choose a system and stick with it.
... Maybe I should buy the DLC, having a line on the map showing where you've been for what is it, the last 200 hours, would be pretty nice...
Breath of the Wild super thread - A Black Falcon - 6th August 2017
https://www.destructoid.com/breaking-down-why-breath-of-the-wild-is-highly-overrated-452329.phtml?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
This is a lengthy article which is getting attention by a guy who finds BotW disappointing for a bunch of reasons. Some of those I agree with, most notably the criticism of the flat difficulty of the game (a difficulty curve is far better design!). That "flat" design carries over into a lot of other things, and causes other things he criticizes at length, including that there is basically no progression in the game because you have all the key items at the beginning and the only things you have to find are shrines (which are all very similar) or korok seeds, and the story presentation of the game and how all of the interesting events happen in flashbacks and not in the present. I don't know if I mind that latter one as much as the author does, a story told in flashback can work, but I'll need to play more of the game to know. Also, when talking about how poorly BotW does at having your actions feel like they matter in the world he keeps mentioning Majora's Mask without admitting that that game is very much an outlier within the Zelda franchise as far as having your actions directly affect the world goes, but still there are some pretty good points there. The criticism of how everything in the world is all the same -- how all stables look like Mongolian yurts no matter where they are in the world, that all shrines look and play about the same, that there are so few different types of enemies and you see them over and over, and such -- is particularly good, because this is definitely a problem with the game.
There's more; it's a good article. I don't agree with all of it for sure (there's no criticism of the simplified combat for example, or praise for the graphics), but the core complaint that open-world design is not necessarily good is obviously one I agree with.