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+--- Thread: I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" (/showthread.php?tid=6759)
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - Dark Jaguar - 23rd July 2014
Are basically a hate group with a sorta-catchy name. I've seen a lot of people try to trip over themselves to make it clear that there really are some issues that affect men (and there are), and say that it's just a large number of members of that "movement" that ruin it.
I made a mistake and took the time to read some comments, and now I think it's a bit different. There was never any concern about "men's rights" from the start. They don't focus on any actual problems on their end, they just spend all their time saying that women's rights aren't an issue, that women's complaints don't matter. That's... basically it. To be clear, I'm saying every time they talk about a "men's right" issue it always includes something along the lines of "women's complaints are irrational and wrong".
So yeah, I don't think there actually IS a real "men's rights" movement. It's basically as though the KKK had named themselves the "White Defense Council for Change". So I'll just say it here, they're a hate group.
Sorry, the bile just reached a certain point and I had to vent a little.
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - A Black Falcon - 27th July 2014
Yeah, you're right, no question. I don't go to reddit much, where most of this seems to be centered, but from what I've read about it, there's no doubt that they really are a hate group, angry at women and surely also at how women have a larger role in society than they used to. Of course men still dominate, but things getting more equal makes some in the dominant group scared and angry at the changes, and that's what you see here, sadly enough. There's no doubt that the issue of gender rights is one which too many men on the internet are angry about and refuse to understand. It's sad that this is still the case now... I'd have hoped that we could improve more. More equality is a good thing for everyone!
You see a lot of this blowback in gaming too -- most gamers are still white men, of course (as am I), and on internet forums a lot of people get very angry at anyone who says that there is a problem with how women are treated in the gaming industry or portrayed in games, even though there are quite obvious huge problems in both fields.
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - Dark Jaguar - 27th July 2014
It's more than that. These particular men aren't JUST modern mysogeny, they are some sort of prehistoric breed, far FAR more terrible than the average. Put another way, there's the casual racism, and then there's the KKK. These people are the KKK.
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - A Black Falcon - 27th July 2014
Hmm, they're that bad? I admit, I have not looked at what they have to say in much depth...
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - alien space marine - 12th August 2014
You should listen to Karen straughan and the honey badgers first, before making sweeping generalizations, based upon a small sample of right wing tossers who latched onto the MRA label.
Remember there is a plethora of misandrist blogs on tumblr full of angry bitter women androphobes claiming to be feminists, every movements has it's own extremists and nut jobs.[COW][/COW]
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - Sacred Jellybean - 12th August 2014
But men aren't an oppressed minority. And the goals of feminism would end the real issues that plague men, such as a machismo culture that does not allow them vulnerability or emotional connection. And the idea that women are primary care-givers, better equipped to raise children than men.
I googled Karen Straughan and recognized her from a youtube link that a friend shared to me. I wasted 20 minutes watching a screed of nonsense and fictional male persecution. It demonized women who take advantage of so-called "Nice Guys". She asserted that women have the same visceral reaction towards these lilly-livered "Nice Guys" as they do spiders: repulsion. This explain why they date and fuck dominant men who are assholes and treat them like crap, yadda yadda yadda. Pretty much the same lunacy you hear from insecure guys who blame women for their loneliness.
Read any random article on Return of Kings, an MRA site that's outside the fringe, and tell me with a straight face that it's not despicable garbage.
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - alien space marine - 14th August 2014
Sacred Jellybean Wrote:But men aren't an oppressed minority. And the goals of feminism would end the real issues that plague men, such as a machismo culture that does not allow them vulnerability or emotional connection. And the idea that women are primary care-givers, better equipped to raise children than men.
I googled Karen Straughan and recognized her from a youtube link that a friend shared to me. I wasted 20 minutes watching a screed of nonsense and fictional male persecution. It demonized women who take advantage of so-called "Nice Guys". She asserted that women have the same visceral reaction towards these lilly-livered "Nice Guys" as they do spiders: repulsion. This explain why they date and fuck dominant men who are assholes and treat them like crap, yadda yadda yadda. Pretty much the same lunacy you hear from insecure guys who blame women for their loneliness.
Read any random article on Return of Kings, an MRA site that's outside the fringe, and tell me with a straight face that it's not despicable garbage.
I spent two hours writing a carefully written response to you, only for forum bugs to pop out and erase all my efforts in mere seconds...Rrrrrrrrrrr
let me respond by a simple question
how do you resolve sexual inequality by presuming one sex has a monopoly on "privilege" and the other on victimization?
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - A Black Falcon - 14th August 2014
alien space marine Wrote:how do you resolve sexual inequality by presuming one sex has a monopoly on "privilege" and the other on victimization?
Because that is reality.
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - alien space marine - 18th August 2014
A Black Falcon Wrote:Because that is reality.
What privilege do you or I have that our female peers do not, in the developed world?
I'n the U.S men are obligated to sign up for selective services, in the event they decide to call a draft and conscript young men 18 to 25 years of age onto the battlefield. While women can now serve voluntarily their still exempted from having to register.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Male_Power#Defining_male_power_and_powerlessness
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - Dark Jaguar - 19th August 2014
Those things are bad, yes, and biased. Those are problems, but if you want to know about privilege, we should be more specific.
Legally, women have essentially all the rights men do now. This is a step in the right direction, but culturally, and in actual practice, women are not equals. This is where the concept of "privilege" comes in. Privilege isn't a bad thing, in fact ideally all races and genders would be uplifted to the same level of it. However, it does result in some blinders.
Namely, ask some of the women you know about their day to day life. From what you've said, I'm fairly certain you'll be rather surprised. A lot of men walk around with some assumptions that cause women problems. Maybe you see a woman appear to overreact to someone "coming on" to them. What you didn't see were the dozens of comeons she already had to deal with that week, the constant barrage that happens practically from the moment she steps out the door to the moment she finally gets home. The reality that, say, she may not even make it home safely. Maybe she was running late, she might have to walk back late at night, and it's dangerous. Maybe she is thinking about asking someone she knows to escort her back home, but maybe not, because how well does she know the person she's asking?
There's a statistical fact that women get paid less than men for the same work. There are exceptions, but statistics don't lie. There's a significant number out there to prove there is a problem.
Beyond that, let's look at how the press reacts to women in power. A woman in power is an exception, they themselves have gained the privilege of power, but there's still an odd way the press will treat them. Any sign of emotional weakness is preyed upon.
Even in the sciences, statistics are showing a huge bias amongst a profession that should know better, with all sorts of harassment at that level.
I understand, your position may be that as women now have legal equality, it follows that all it takes is to drop the pretense and simply hold women as equal, and everything else goes away, and by that reasoning considering men "privileged" just adds to the problem. The unfortunate reality is that vast parts of our culture (and many others) are very far from such an enlightened outlook. It's been going on for decades since legal equality came about, and thus equality still hasn't been reached. As such, acting like everyone is equals only serves to hide the problems women go through every single day.
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - A Black Falcon - 19th August 2014
If all it took to get rid of a problem was to legalize equality, America wouldn't have a race problem, for example. But all you need to do is look at the shocking amount of racism the right has thrown Obama's way to know that America still has a very serious race problem, and a lot of people still can't really handle the idea that we have a black President and hate him for race-related issues more than anything else. Most of the Republicans' hate this presidency applies here, but one of the most obvious examples is the whole "he's actually a Kenyan" thing, followed by "secret Muslim!".
Legalizing equality is the first step towards equality. After you have done that, you still have a long, long way to go to try to change society and convince people that their biases are wrong.
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - Dark Jaguar - 19th August 2014
The president is nothing. Look at all the black kids getting shot on a daily basis.
Here's the thing. "Racism" is a bad word now, but a lot of people who are racist don't seem to realize that that's the word that describes them. "I'm not racist but black people are statistically more likely to commit crimes!" They don't seem to realize that everything after the "but" was completely racist. For these sorts of racists, we've done an excellent job convincing them that racism is bad, but we failed to define exactly what racism is at some point along the way.
Then there's the more subtle racism. Let's say that racism as a word evolves over time, and as the old horrors of it start to fade, there are always leftover bits, or even new bits coming along, and thus racism needs new definitions to expand into those new territories. So, you get the people who are confused when they are called racist for merely saying they don't see a problem (literally, they don't, they don't live the problem so they can't see it, and I'm certainly willing to bet they aren't actually the ones directly contributing to it in this example). Racism, as a word, has expanded to include those who passively enable a problem by being blind to it. That's why the concept of "privilege" is evoked instead, to avoid this confusion of terms.
However, it is important anyway. Yes, being unaware of the problem is itself a problem. Not that those who are unaware of it could help it a lot of the time, but sometimes they can. If someone is unaware, then a LOT of women, black people, or others come forward, time after time, to explain that they do in fact have a problem and it starts to becoming significant, and that person still refuses to acknowledge it, it is an unfortunate fact that this individual is starting to become responsible for their ignorance with each passing denial. Compare it with global warming deniers. Every single time a new piece of evidence demonstrates it's reality, and it is ignored, they become more and more culpable for their own ignorance.
That said, I am very willing to allow that most people outside a group are just genuinely ignorant of the problems that group faces. It's human nature, and very hard to correct. It's also a fact that while there is just one internet, no one person has been to every single activist cause ON that internet. Sure, a specific group may have already talked to death one specific topic to the point that it's just OLD, but there's just far too many who haven't even read the sites that link to the sites that link to THAT site to KNOW that they even HAVE such a gap in their knowledge. I'm really not sure what to do on that one, so I just post screeds on random forums when people ask questions.
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - A Black Falcon - 17th September 2014
So yeah, over the past month this has become a huge, huge issue, and a lot of gamers have been revealed to be incredibly, and depressingly, sexist. I honestly don't think I'd have guessed that so many people would be so incredibly stupid and hateful... it's sad stuff. Fortunately, for all their idiotic death threats and insults, they WILL lose this in the end.
For anyone who doesn't know, this is the kind of stuff that's been going on. http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-i-learned-as-internets-most-hated-person/
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - Dark Jaguar - 18th September 2014
Hey you read cracked?
Yeah, I've read about that from other places. What is even the hell? Want to be more depressed? Those hateful people are posting ON THAT VERY ARTICLE. Also, like half a dozen other articles more or less also about this thing.
In all the nonsense about no proof behind these allegations, I have just one thing to add. Who the hell cares whether some random woman cheated on her boyfriend? Assuming it was even true, why is that something total strangers care so much about?
Anyway ABF, now perhaps you see just a glimpse of the sort of hate I was talking about above. It's enough to make someone not ever want to reveal their identity online and go to great lengths to confuse people about it or something. This time, it's from "gamers". Unfortunately, now when I say "yeah I'm a gamer", I get grouped up with these fools, who ask me why I'm not doing anything to stop them. I understand, except "gaming" isn't a single monolithic thing. I've never MET these people before, never even been to the same forums as these people. I've got basically no chance whatsoever to even encounter them, so how am I supposed to actually stand up for anyone? I'm part of a different culture entirely it seems, one that grew up trying to be nice to people and who liked hearing that, say, Sierra employed a lot of female game designers (by "a lot" I unfortunately still mean "less than half"). But, with these fools, plus the fighting tournament "scene", plus a few other ugly things that have been happening lately, the word "gamer" has been tarnished. I feel that it's time to label myself something else. Maybe just "game player"... I'm DJ. I play games but I'm not part of the hateful "gamer culture". I post on Miiverse! We're nice!
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - A Black Falcon - 18th September 2014
On the note about "gamers"... http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/224400/Gamers_dont_have_to_be_your_audience_Gamers_are_over.php The vile waves of hate this article received are also shocking... sure, I knew that most gamers are male, and that "gamers" have often been a fairly insular and males-only culture, but there'd never been anything like this, a time with so many retrograde idiots throwing around a mixture of hatred, death threats, concern trolling, and "it's all about game journalism ethics!" lies.
I don't know if I'd agree that the term "gamers" has been ruined, though; only some gamers agree with that stuff, not all of them! Have the vocal few ruined the term for everyone? Maybe, but maybe not... I think that absolutely a problem has been exposed, and these sexist beliefs those people have need to be fought back against, but abandoning the term "gamers" just because of them... I'd rather not. Isn't that kind of letting them win? And I of course don't give up ground easily in a debate. :)
Quote:Anyway ABF, now perhaps you see just a glimpse of the sort of hate I was talking about above.For sure. The number of people espousing support for some degree of the hate really does surprise me, though. I'd have thought that most people would be beyond such obviously backwards hatred and conspiracy theories, but clearly not. It's sad stuff. :( Outside of one Sega-16 thread I've rarely said much about this during this controversy myself, but that's mostly because it's hard to think of anything to say that isn't just "you people are all horrible retrograde sexists and often bigots, grow up and join the modern world and stop discriminating against women or go back to the 1950s where you below, you idiots' and such, and that's not exactly going to go anywhere useful. :p I like debate, but not necessarily pointless argument... and I can't even begin to understand why someone would think that way. How can people be so shortsighted as to not care about any group which isn't their own?
Quote: It's enough to make someone not ever want to reveal their identity online and go to great lengths to confuse people about it or something.Indeed, that is a reasonable response. I don't know that it'd be my response, but even if I'm different in some ways I am a white male, so who knows if I wasn't.
Quote: Unfortunately, now when I say "yeah I'm a gamer", I get grouped up with these fools, who ask me why I'm not doing anything to stop them.Have people who aren't gamers themselves actually heard of any of this? I kind of thought that it was mostly pretty localized within the "gaming community", unless someone had randomly ran across tweets or something.
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - Dark Jaguar - 19th September 2014
No it's getting wider press now, especially among progressive forums.
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - A Black Falcon - 23rd October 2014
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=134839993#post134839993
Here's a nice summary of a lot of what's gone on with this. It's crazy how devoted the idiot sexist bigots are being to their awful cause...
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - Dark Jaguar - 24th October 2014
Some have taken to calling these people "gaters", which frankly sounds as good as anything. If nothing else, I hope that this thing gets so big and garners such negative opinion that no news organisation will ever be able to use the "-gate" suffix again.
I have concluded that "Men's Right Activists" - Dark Jaguar - 31st January 2016
Well, it's nice to see things like this now and again.