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Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - Weltall - 20th July 2010
<object width="400" height="225"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=13457383&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=13457383&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="225"></embed></object><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/13457383">Lagoa Multiphysics 1.0 - Teaser</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/thiagocosta">Thiago Costa</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
Okay, Toven: reverse-engineer it by the end of the week.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - lazyfatbum - 20th July 2010
When I saw the tearing physics my jaw dropped. I remember the creators on street fighter 3-D talking about in the future how you'd be able to grab someone by their clothing and toss them or perform certain moves which may tear their clothing or even their hair but the technology just wasn't available.
I hope this engine gets bought up quick, I want extreme rabbit deformity in my next gen video games
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - EdenMaster - 20th July 2010
Wow, that's incredible...
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - Dark Jaguar - 3rd August 2010
Woah... Individual dust particle rendering? Amazing stuff. I wonder if they can simulate brownian motion with it?
It's times like these when I think maybe the day when we can simulate the complex chemical reactions in a single cell may not be so far away... It's still a long way from this, which while there's a LOT going on, it's all still relatively simple and basic interactions. Heck even the math used to describe chemical interactions doesn't seem to cut it when it comes to cells, too much interdependent interactions going on. Something new may need to come along, like how calculus was invented as a tool to help with physics.
This however shows promise in that direction... some day... Imagine FLoW made on THAT sort of engine.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - lazyfatbum - 5th August 2010
meh i'd be more impressed if they can just clothes and hair to work right. Besides that there's the whole issue of getting the physics to understand things like you are up against a wall so your body position should change, not re-pose. You can throw a punch up against a wall, you cant stand straight up while standing over a body or object without manipulating your hips. That kinda krap always gets me, I think its really advanced stuff but it seems so logical.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - Dark Jaguar - 5th August 2010
Not as advanced as a single cell fortunately. There's a number of PC games that have used today's physics engines to do a lot of really nice cloth rendering. Unfortunately it's lost completely in the console versions, since no current console has specialized physics processing to make it work fast. Mirror's Edge in particular does some really nice cloth rendering, but only on PC. I think what you're looking for with those body movements is "procedural animation" in the style of Spore. The current method of writing individual "animations" for characters in games will never be realistic enough. I've seen some great demos of more procedural movement online though. It's certainly something that's doable, but again it'll take a new generation of consoles or modern PCs to pull it off right.
Nintendo's next handheld is going to be cutting-edge for handhelds. It's not just a tiny incremental step, it looks like a Gamecube game, and better than anything you can get out of, say, an iPad. I hope this means Nintendo is seriously considering that the "3DWii" should have a lot more power behind it. Most notably, I'm not expecting completely overwhelming graphics power, perhaps just something on the level of the 360 plus physics processing.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - lazyfatbum - 6th August 2010
I dunno, i've seen some high end pc games where, as an example, when you walk up to a wall you are still in a walking/running animation. Or when up against a wall or object, you aim your gun and it goes through the wall or even more obtrusively pushes the character back to allow him to aim the weapon. As far as cloth, have you seen a PC game where cloth can be torn/burned or otherwise interactive? I haven't seen such a thing, that would be fun.
As far as the new wii I bet you're right. The more realistic the physics the more immersivem even if you are playing Wii Sports 5 with eggheaded avatars, if the physics are ultra real it instantly becomes half the fun of the game.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - Great Rumbler - 6th August 2010
In Mirror's Edge, the character does some of the things that you're talking about. It also does cloth tearing pretty well.
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Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - Dark Jaguar - 6th August 2010
Not all high end PC games are using physics engines, but they're there, like Mirror's Edge up there. It's not at the level that the big demo above is, but it's still what you're talking about.
I don't even need the physics to be "realistic" in a cartoony game. I guess what I'm saying is they should be consistent. Remember how Tiny Toons tried to codefy all the cartoony physics tropes? That's the sort of thing I'd like to see. So Mario should still bounce around like rubber, but it'll look much more convincing because he'll actually look like he's interacting with his environment.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - Weltall - 6th August 2010
Great Rumbler Wrote:In Mirror's Edge, the character does some of the things that you're talking about. It also does cloth tearing pretty well.
It gets the cloth-tearing physics right, but completely fucks up when it comes to gravity.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - Great Rumbler - 6th August 2010
With a perfect physics engine, his right leg would drop away and he'd fall in a humorous way, but you can't have everything.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - Weltall - 6th August 2010
Okay, because I would assume a physics engine capable of realistic fabric motion could handle something as fundamentally amateur as not letting a character go from a crouch to being upright while standing mostly on thin air.
My impression is that the designers fell in love with part of their engine so much that they neglected something really basic, and I'm too busy laughing to be impressed.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - Great Rumbler - 6th August 2010
Well, presumably the engine isn't built to take into account the fact half his body is resting on the platform and half is not. It make also be that because he's pressed up against the fabric, without enough force to break it, that it's actually helping to hold him in place.
I can't really think of a game that actually handles this accurately.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - Dark Jaguar - 6th August 2010
I think what you're wanting is a consistent single system of code for ALL objects, like our universe. Unfortunately games aren't that clean, they can't be right now. To simulate EVERYTHING physically is just too much for what the Mirror's Edge engine is trying to accomplish. Right now, it's not going to use physics processing everything. That's one thing to keep in mind.
There's also the matter of handling how a character actually reacts while falling. We're still mostly stuck with scripting for the most part, except for "rag dolls" when dying. To really work, that needs some serious additions like total procedurally generated animation. That's another thing entirely from physics processing, because now we're dealing with animate people instead of just inanimate windows and cloth. Even modern "ragdoll" deaths still look really silly.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - lazyfatbum - 7th August 2010
That's neat that it got the tearing of a surface but I was talking about cloth on a person, morphing to their body and objects like in the demo above.
His feet are exactly what I was talking about. In Zelda OoT you probably noticed a neat mechanic: When link is at an angle he'll bend his knee so that he's standing properly. This works on stairs, sloped ground, anything. That simple trick should work with the whole body. If you have your sword out and run up against a wall, it should scrape on the wall. Now based on what I understand of coding that kinda stuff gets insane to program but really, if one game did it right, the rest of developers would follow suit.
Ragdoll should be 'always on' just with the modifications of being under its own (of the character) power vs. gravity and force of outside stimulus (punches, explosions etc). The gun the enemy is holding would cause his model to be manipulated. Bigger gun, more manipulation of his model. Instead of relaying model animations. If he's shot in the stomach his body could react to it, throwing him off balance, making him bend and ruining his aiming even though he continues to fire to try and get you.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - Weltall - 7th August 2010
Dark Jaguar Wrote:I think what you're wanting is a consistent single system of code for ALL objects, like our universe.
Ideally, yes. But, in this particular instance, I simply want a bit of consistency. The demo is intended to convey realism through the display of flapping fabric which reacts to wind, gunfire, and impact from large objects. I understand that this is a very advanced trick and requires very complex programming.
My point is that the effect is entirely nullified by the mook acting in complete defiance of gravity. Now, I'm no programmer, but it seems intuitive to me that it is easier to code a single object's positioning and tie it to "stay upright" or "fall" than it is to simulate something as complex as fabric physics which can react to real-time stimuli. I don't care how he falls, or whether his particular falling animation is tied to his specific positioning/balance/force of movement. I just don't want him standing on thin air. It ruins the entire effect, and it's not a shortcoming of the engine. It's a programming mistake, and the kind one expects out of amateurs.
The effect here is like including me, and my near-total lack of musical talent, in the London Symphony Orchestra to perform a concert.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - Great Rumbler - 7th August 2010
-He's standing partially on the platform
-His back is pressed up against the fabric
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - lazyfatbum - 7th August 2010
He's standing partially on the platform as if the platform extends. If you've ever laid in a net you would know his leg that should be suspended in the plastic would not be perfectly flat against an invisible outcrop of building. It looks horrible. Stop arguing.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - Weltall - 7th August 2010
He is standing on the platform with the tip of one foot. His center of gravity is obviously not where it should be for him to maintain balance. The fabric is clearly not strong enough to withstand the weight or force of his body, and he's not leaning on it because you can see it flowing around his back foot, which it would not do if any weight were pressing on it. He is standing up from a crouch as if on a completely solid surface.
Why do you people insist on arguing with me on this?
If you disagree, I invite you to try recreating his positioning in real life and see what happens. ;D
I mean, you can see the same mook in other variations of this scene being thrown through the plastic and falling, even though a portion of his body remains suspended over the platform, so it's definitely not an issue of the engine being unable to handle what I've observed 3D engines handling easily since I've been observing 3D engines.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - Great Rumbler - 7th August 2010
Man, you guys can ruin anything.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - lazyfatbum - 7th August 2010
xD its just something that can easily pull you out of the experience and should have been taken care of, I bet what happened is that he had started his animation while on solid ground, was then pushed and continued his animation without the 'you're on a ledge stupid' switches hitting until he finished the animation.
And thats what i'm talking about, lets get rid of scripted animations and offer 'goals' so that a goal would be a pose for a particular attack, such as shooting. So when the AI fancies the conditions, it attempts to enter its pose for shooting which can be broken by the player. If you punched/kicked his arm, he would still fire the weapon, but it would fire off to the side just like in movies. Instead of him starting all new animations or worse, continuing the animation even though he's being shot or attacked.
Physics Engine Makes Dirt Sexy - Dark Jaguar - 7th August 2010
That's actually something close to what they're working towards, transformations from one animation to another.
Weltall, I get what you're saying but the problem is if a part of the enemy's hit box is on land, it's considered on land. The game just doesn't DO "center of gravity". Ideally, it would, but that's another step from the fabrics. While it may seem like that's incredibly complex stuff, most of it is handled by the physx engine automatically. Someone else did the work for them before they got there. Since the physics processing on things like breaking boxes and shredding fabrics has NO effect on gameplay, it was easier to add. Very little bug testing if it doesn't really DO anything.
You're probably already thinking this, so I'll say it here. The real disappointing thing is that MOST physics processing in modern PC games is entirely done to inconsequential "background art" animations. There are exceptions, yes, but look at the PC version of Batman and you'll see what I mean. Batman's cape is done in physx, and so is processing on some things like breaking wood or where a grate ripped off a duct should go, but actual fighting? Still preprogrammed animations. Yes, I would love to see them do better. However, PC games like Batman and Mirror's Edge are basically ported versions of the console games, wherein the consoles don't support physics acceleration. To do the port well, they may add some "purely visual" physics to it, but they won't add anything that changes the gameplay significantly so they need to go in and do a huge round of bug testing. When the next generation of consoles includes built-in physics processing, it'll become a lot more important.
Actually a lot of console games do tend to use Havok for physics, but as I'm sure you're aware that's kid's stuff compared to real physics acceleration, like comparing Super FX to N64.