+- Tendo City (https://www.tendocity.net)
+-- Forum: Tendo City: Metropolitan District (https://www.tendocity.net/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Ramble City (https://www.tendocity.net/forumdisplay.php?fid=44)
+--- Thread: Obama's Hissy Fit (/showthread.php?tid=5816)
Obama's Hissy Fit - Darunia - 23rd June 2010
I don't need to link any articles here, I know you've all heard about Obama firing Gen. McCrystal for the remarks he made to Rolling Stone. My beef is... we're at war... this guy is in charge of the war front... and Obama fires him because of a personal qualm that has nothing to do with the war, or how it is going, or the General's qualifications... is that wise? I mean, if he fired him because he was personally responsible for some failure, ya... but to fire our top man in the pivotal Afghan front, because he told a few mildly colorful anecdotes to a journalist... isn't that a little PETTY for the Commander in Chief? Isn't the General entitled to a little leeway there, for freedom of speech? Anyone else think so?
Obama's Hissy Fit - Dark Jaguar - 23rd June 2010
To be clear, every single news station was calling for this guy's head, including Glenn Beck. At worst this means Obama was pandering to the crowd. I really don't think this was some "hissy fit" of his.
That said, I really didn't see that big a deal either. I recalled all that stuff about Patton. Then I found out about... the other stuff... This guy's been excused for a lot of stuff that directly interfered with the war effort, and I guess this was the last straw.
Meanwhile the news is going on about him appearing like an "angry black man". Note their special disguise. It's not a racist comment they're making, oh no! They're saying that's just what he LOOKS LIKE when he does that (how they don't see how racist that is is beyond me, but then again that's often the case with racists). This is the same bunch of stupid news heads that just a few weeks ago were saying Obama seemed too "calm cool and collected". How can you be TOO calm cool and collected? I want a frickin' Vulcan in the white house.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Sacred Jellybean - 23rd June 2010
Did you read the article? There's a lot of spin, but it's also very revealing. You can read it here: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/119236
It's more than just a few remarks, it's also a tense relationship between McChrystal and the US Ambassador Eikenberry and Special Envoy Holbrooke, and that a lot of the troops themselves are frustrated with him. As for the remarks themselves, he and his aides basically painted Obama to be out-of-touch and out of his league. The article also mentions that McChrystal also allegedly tried to cover up the accidental death of an American soldier at the hands of his fellow troops.
I'm really not surprised that he was fired. He wrote his letter of resignation before even meeting with Obama, so perhaps he wasn't surprised either (though it was probably just a formality, or he knew it was coming, etc). It's unprofessional to be so loose-lipped around the media, and comments such as the ones he and his aides made undermine the war effort.
On the other hand, I don't know that I'd agree with going so far as to firing him from the comments alone. It seems to me the bigger issue is that McChrystal is trying to take too much control over the war effort. I do commend him on his focus to minimize civilian casualties at all costs, though. It's a wise effort and a path we should continue down.
Any word on who's taking his place yet?
Obama's Hissy Fit - Sacred Jellybean - 23rd June 2010
Dark Jaguar Wrote:Meanwhile the news is going on about him appearing like an "angry black man". Note their special disguise.
:psyduck: Do you have any links to this, or has it been all TV news you've been catching?
Quote:This is the same bunch of stupid news heads that just a few weeks ago were saying Obama seemed too "calm cool and collected". How can you be TOO calm cool and collected? I want a frickin' Vulcan in the white house.
Agreed, I hated that he responded to this by making a remark about knowing "whose ass to kick." It was really a weak move, he should have retained his usual demeanor. But I did hear the quote out-of-context, so maybe he was being egged on a bit by the interviewer.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Great Rumbler - 24th June 2010
Obama pretty much had to fire him, specifically BECAUSE we're at war. You think the President of the United States can let some general go around bad mouthing him and the vice president to the press? No, he can't.
If you did that to your boss, you'd be out on the street just as fast. If not faster.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Darunia - 24th June 2010
"Some French minister," the aide tells me. "It's fucking gay."
LOL
I don't know what form of eloquence one expects when they interview a rough necked US army general. This conjurs to mind images of Patton and MacArthur all right. And since I don't necessarily support Obama very much, I can sympathize with the general. It would have been wiser, however, for him not to have spoken so publicly about it in such a way. I suppose that when one is shackled to such a position, there is very little room for flexibility.
Obama's Hissy Fit - EdenMaster - 24th June 2010
If I went on television or wrote in the newspaper about what an idiot my bosses are, I'd probably expect to be fired too. It was a dumbass move on his part.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Dark Jaguar - 24th June 2010
It's basically the news shows I've been catching. The Daily Show summed it up pretty well last night actually.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Darunia - 24th June 2010
If I went on television or wrote in the newspaper about what an idiot my bosses are, I'd probably expect to be fired too. It was a dumbass move on his part.
We're not talking about a part-time mook pumping gas at the 7-11. This is an Americal general in charge of a combat theater. Give him some leeway.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Great Rumbler - 24th June 2010
If anything he should have LESS leeway, he's not pumping gas at the 7-11 he's in charge of thousands of troops in a combat theater.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Dark Jaguar - 24th June 2010
In the long run I think this whole episode is going to fade into obscurity. The decision Obama made was purely a political one, and history books really won't take much note of it.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Geno - 24th June 2010
It might seem pathetic that Obama got his widdle feewings hurt or whatever, but it's really not that uncommon. Like most everyone else here has been saying, like him or not, Obama is commander-in-chief of the armed forces; he is every soldier's boss. You don't go around publicly bad-mouthing your boss, not if you want to keep your job, anyway. And yeah, there may've been other reasons why Obama fired McChrystal and this was just an excuse, but whatever the case, it really isn't that uncommon for a president to fire a general who stupidly fires his mouth off about the commander-in-chief. As for McChrystal's right to freedom of speech, it's not as if he's being legally prosecuted for his remarks, nor did the government make any effort to censor the article containing his remarks. If I called my boss an asshole to his face, I wouldn't go to prison for it or anything, but you can bet your ass I'd be looking for work right now.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Darunia - 24th June 2010
I'm sure it'll be a footnote in the history books, known only by historians.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Geno - 24th June 2010
I don't think this will be forgotten anytime soon. I'm pretty sure it'll be used against Obama in 2012. Also note that to this day, Truman's firing of MacArthur has not been forgotten. MacArthur was also fired in the midst of a war and Truman, like Obama now, received a lot of flack for it. In Truman's defense, however, MacArthur was batshit crazy and would've taken us to war with China if he had his way.
Obama's Hissy Fit - A Black Falcon - 24th June 2010
Geno Wrote:I don't think this will be forgotten anytime soon. I'm pretty sure it'll be used against Obama in 2012. Also note that to this day, Truman's firing of MacArthur has not been forgotten. MacArthur was also fired in the midst of a war and Truman, like Obama now, received a lot of flack for it. In Truman's defense, however, MacArthur was batshit crazy and would've taken us to war with China if he had his way.
While Obama's additional defense could be that McChrystal's strategy is failing?
Really though, Obama had to fire him, it'd look very weak to do anything else...
I mean, of course he had to be fired for saying such stupid comments, but really he should have known better... either he'd gotten a way too high sense of his own importance, or he wanted to leave, I think. Probably the former, from what I've read. And also, why leave someone in such an important position who can't stand any of the civilian authorities who he is supposed to be working for and with? I think the problems there should be very obvious!
Obama's Hissy Fit - Weltall - 24th June 2010
Geno Wrote:I don't think this will be forgotten anytime soon. I'm pretty sure it'll be used against Obama in 2012. Also note that to this day, Truman's firing of MacArthur has not been forgotten. MacArthur was also fired in the midst of a war and Truman, like Obama now, received a lot of flack for it. In Truman's defense, however, MacArthur was batshit crazy and would've taken us to war with China if he had his way.
MacArthur was a tremendously famous war hero, though. When the Japanese invaded the Philippines, MacArthur retreated, but in doing so, he made the famous quote "BRB. Keep this motherfucker warm for me." And then he famously came back and killed every Japanese soldier on the island with his glance of stern disapproval.
McChrystal? I doubt half of America ever heard of him before last week.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Dark Jaguar - 24th June 2010
I'd comment that they couldn't use this against him considering everyone on the Republican side was calling for this, but then I remember that completely contradicting yourself is a major regulation in modern republican strategy.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Darunia - 24th June 2010
STFU DJ.
Bring your tired old dogmatic anti-conservatism elsewhere.
Obama's Hissy Fit - A Black Falcon - 26th June 2010
Dark Jaguar Wrote:I'd comment that they couldn't use this against him considering everyone on the Republican side was calling for this, but then I remember that completely contradicting yourself is a major regulation in modern republican strategy.
Just completely contradicting yourself? Completely contradicting yourself and then serially lying about it seems more likely... and then getting away with it the majority of the time because the American people are complete idiots.
I mean, what other explanation is there for why Republicans are doing well in the polls this year, despite the fact that it is Republican filibusters in the Senate that are so centrally responsible for the relatively slow economic recovery (yes, filibustering every single jobs bill this year has major consequences for the economy!) and the struggles the Democrats have had in passing their legislation?
Any sane electorate would say "Well, we tried to elect the Democrats in '06 and '08, but the Republicans keep blocking almost everything they want to do, so we should vote even more of them in so the Republican blocking gets broken down." I mean obviously, how else is anything going to happen?
But no, people seem ready to vote in the party of filibuster and blocking everything they can, because they blame the Democrats for the fact that the Republicans are blocking or limiting too much most of the good things they want to get done, evidently.
Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
(And no, it's not "The American People Turing on the Democratic Party". That Republican myth simply is not true.)
Obama's Hissy Fit - Darunia - 26th June 2010
I KNOW, YOU GUYS!
I hate it when lousy democratic republics have two opposing political parties! IT DRIVES ME NUTS! Why can't we just have a ONE-PARTY SYSTEM? The way we have it, one party goes into power, the other comes out... blah blah blah... checks and balances, checks and balances, checks and balances! It's so frustrating when stupid people try and balance the democratic process! Why can't we have ONE PARTY like Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union? Enough with this RIDICULOUS republic crap... that way, our beautiful and gloriously homogenous Democratic legislature could unanymously pass every single piece of liberal dogma they desire? Just think--without those aggravating Republicans, we could have so much more Welfare... higher taxes--ESPECIALLY ON THOSE WORTHLESS CORPORATIONS!!--we could have universal Affirmative Action---more powerful unions (teachers' unions aren't powerful enough, says I!)... we could finally decrease the strength of the US military, unilaterally surrender our foreign interests, sue for peace from Al Qaeda and Iraq, ban domestic oil drilling... if only, if ONLY we had a one-party state, with one agenda driving our policies, foreign and domestic! But NO! These naive, bible-humping, gun-toting rednecks INSIST on having checks and balances in government! Argh--it's enough to make me scream!
Obama's Hissy Fit - Weltall - 26th June 2010
Now, now, Darunia. We all know that ABF lacks an objective, rational political viewpoint.
He does have a point, though. The things you (ABF) say make it seem very much like you would prefer the level of democracy found in nations which preface their names with "People's Democratic Republic", enough so that there is the appearance of a choice for the electorate, far too little for that choice to make any difference.
It doesn't matter how good one's intentions are, that's a god-awful way to run a country.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Darunia - 26th June 2010
Weltall, I fear you may have missed the tongue-in-cheek nature of my diatribe.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Weltall - 26th June 2010
I definitely did not.
Obama's Hissy Fit - A Black Falcon - 26th June 2010
Weltall Wrote:Now, now, Darunia. We all know that ABF lacks an objective, rational political viewpoint.
He does have a point, though. The things you (ABF) say make it seem very much like you would prefer the level of democracy found in nations which preface their names with "People's Democratic Republic", enough so that there is the appearance of a choice for the electorate, far too little for that choice to make any difference.
It doesn't matter how good one's intentions are, that's a god-awful way to run a country.
... Even as a joke I fail to see any connection between that and what I said, which is that the people are complete idiots for complaining that nothing is getting done and then voting (if they do indeed vote that way this November) for the very people making sure that nothing gets done. That's the point.
Obama's Hissy Fit - A Black Falcon - 26th June 2010
Darunia Wrote:I KNOW, YOU GUYS!
I hate it when lousy democratic republics have two opposing political parties! IT DRIVES ME NUTS! Why can't we just have a ONE-PARTY SYSTEM? The way we have it, one party goes into power, the other comes out... blah blah blah... checks and balances, checks and balances, checks and balances! It's so frustrating when stupid people try and balance the democratic process! Why can't we have ONE PARTY like Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union? Enough with this RIDICULOUS republic crap... that way, our beautiful and gloriously homogenous Democratic legislature could unanymously pass every single piece of liberal dogma they desire? Just think--without those aggravating Republicans, we could have so much more Welfare... higher taxes--ESPECIALLY ON THOSE WORTHLESS CORPORATIONS!!--we could have universal Affirmative Action---more powerful unions (teachers' unions aren't powerful enough, says I!)... we could finally decrease the strength of the US military, unilaterally surrender our foreign interests, sue for peace from Al Qaeda and Iraq, ban domestic oil drilling... if only, if ONLY we had a one-party state, with one agenda driving our policies, foreign and domestic! But NO! These naive, bible-humping, gun-toting rednecks INSIST on having checks and balances in government! Argh--it's enough to make me scream!
I'm sorry, but "We're going to filibuster every single bill of yours that we can" is NOT normal American congragessional procedure...
Obama's Hissy Fit - Weltall - 27th June 2010
A Black Falcon Wrote:... Even as a joke I fail to see any connection between that and what I said, which is that the people are complete idiots for complaining that nothing is getting done and then voting (if they do indeed vote that way this November) for the very people making sure that nothing gets done. That's the point.
The people were complete idiots for electing as president the first guy who promised that he would do everything differently from the last guy.
And, then, proceeds to pretty much do the same things, such as bailing out failing corporations, pandering to corporate interests by letting health insurance companies dictate the future of American health care, installing corrupt cabinet members, continuing both overseas wars, completely mishandling major disasters in the Gulf of Mexico, appearing lost at sea without a working teleprompter and placating his supporters with just the right amount of insincere kick-ass jingoism.
And his promise of transparent government apparently doesn't apply to his own birth certificate or college transcripts.
Obama will lose his re-election campaign in 2012 to a Republican who will mostly do the same things and be opposed by Democrats who will be as vindictive as the Republicans are being right now--behavior which ABF will no doubt view as heroic.
The Democrats and Republicans are equal-opportunity fuck-ups.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Sacred Jellybean - 27th June 2010
Weltall Wrote:The people were complete idiots for electing as president the first guy who promised that he would do everything differently from the last guy.
You mean we should have contacted our psychic friends to learn that he'd renege on many of his campaign promises? I fail to see how it's stupid to vote for what could potentially be another steaming bowl of shit oatmeal as opposed to what surely would have been another.
I still don't regret my vote.
Quote:And, then, proceeds to pretty much do the same things, such as bailing out failing corporations,
I'm still unsure whether this was the right thing to do. A report I heard on the radio recently indicated that GM seems to be on the right track again, so letting them fail and allowing Detroit to spiral even further down the sink hole looks even more like the wrong decision so far.
Quote:pandering to corporate interests by letting health insurance companies dictate the future of American health care,
I don't like this either, though if they had their way there wouldn't have been any reform at all. At least more people will be insured and insurance companies can't reject people for pre-conditions. You have to remember that the health insurance companies have enough influnce over congress that we would have had to work with them in some fashion anyway.
The health reform bill doesn't nearly go far enough, but at least it's something.
Quote:continuing both overseas wars,
Removing ourselves from both wars won't be easy or immediate. It's dissatisfying that it's taking longer, but I think you and I could both agree that it'd be a terrible idea to pull out immediately and let them descend into even further chaos.
Quote:completely mishandling major disasters in the Gulf of Mexico,
How so?
Quote:placating his supporters with just the right amount of insincere kick-ass jingoism.
Which you would think make conservatives warm up to him. He's nowhere near the ultraliberal everyone painted him to be, so what's the beef? Obama's biggest downfall in my eyes, he's too willing to try to please everyone. Certainly you have to work with the opposing side to get things done, but he takes it too far.
Quote:And his promise of transparent government apparently doesn't apply to his own birth certificate or college transcripts.
Only the lunatic fringe cares about these things. They're chickenshit compared to legitimate Obama complaints. You're right that he hasn't been anywhere near transparent enough as he should be or promised to be (holding meetings behind closed doors, for instance).Quote:Obama will lose his re-election campaign in 2012 to a Republican
I see you've already contacted your psychic friend!
Quote:The Democrats and Republicans are equal-opportunity fuck-ups.
No argument here.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Weltall - 28th June 2010
My point is, I don't think John McCain would have done very much differently from that little laundry list. Definitely not the health care reform. His kick-ass jingoism would probably sound a bit more authentic. Almost certainly, he'd be opposed by Democrats with the same zeal Obama faces from the two-headed Republican/Tea Party monster. The bailouts would have certainly happened and the wars would have continued as expected. And, he'd almost certainly lose in 2012.
Also, I don't care one iota about the birth certificate and such. I'm just wondering why he allows the controversy to continue. It only fuels his detractors.
Obama's Hissy Fit - A Black Falcon - 28th June 2010
Weltall Wrote:My point is, I don't think John McCain would have done very much differently from that little laundry list. Definitely not the health care reform. His kick-ass jingoism would probably sound a bit more authentic. Almost certainly, he'd be opposed by Democrats with the same zeal Obama faces from the two-headed Republican/Tea Party monster. The bailouts would have certainly happened and the wars would have continued as expected. And, he'd almost certainly lose in 2012.
Also, I don't care one iota about the birth certificate and such. I'm just wondering why he allows the controversy to continue. It only fuels his detractors.
Huh... wha? Had McCain through some miracle won, we would not have health care reform as we have it now. There's no question about that. We also would not have had a financial rescue bill last year, real Wall Street reform, and more. Despite themselves, and despite the insane Republican stalling, the Democrats have managed to accomplish some things, which is a huge accomplishment. If the Republicans had won the last election things would be very different in some important ways.
There are of course ways that things would be much less different than I would have wished, and Obama has somewhat disappointed me, but the Democrats have also accomplished some very important things, and that is a great thing that I try not to forget.
I know that the "Obama is the same" thing is tempting, and I've thought it sometimes too, but when you look at the actual records of what the Democrats have done versus what the Republicans have proposed, on the key bills the Democrats have passed or are trying to pass (in the case of a second jobs bill, which is very desperately badly needed but won't happen; say thanks to the Republicans,m 700,000 to 900,000 (minimum) people who will lose their jobs because of the Republican filibuster of the second jobs bill!) such as health care, bank reform, jobs bills, the economic stimulus package (one of the few things that has saved us from this terrible economy getting even worse, which is of course why the Republicans are opposed -- they have not changed as much from the positions of Herbert Hoover as people would have thought they should have...), etc.
Quote:and be opposed by Democrats who will be as vindictive as the Republicans are being right now--behavior which ABF will no doubt view as heroic.
Sorry, but the Democrats are not nearly as shameless and unified in their reversals as Republicans. Democrats would actually have moral qualms about flipping 180 degrees on their position on an issue in the space of a couple of years, while for Republicans it's par for the course and not even something to remark upon...
(See: Should we get rid of the filibuster, positions in 2005 and now...)
Quote:his own birth certificate
So you're a birther too? I'm disappointed, that whole insanely stupid idiocy is unbelievable, 100% based on racism and hatred (the same kind of inexplicable hatred that Clinton got, I guess, but perhaps worse because of his color), and completely ridiculous. I mean, his mother was an American who was living in Hawaii. The father had left her (and left the country, too), and wouldn't return for many years. What more needs be said?
It is an ironic issue for the Republicans to have raised, though, given that John McCain actually was born outside the US (in the Panama Canal area, because his father was in the military and had been stationed there), and thus was the one with the real "can he actually legally be president" issue...
I mean, of course I think he should have been allowed to be president had he won, but still, it is a little ironic.
Obama's Hissy Fit - Weltall - 30th June 2010
A Black Falcon Wrote:Huh... wha? Had McCain through some miracle won, we would not have health care reform as we have it now. There's no question about that. We also would not have had a financial rescue bill last year, real Wall Street reform, and more. Despite themselves, and despite the insane Republican stalling, the Democrats have managed to accomplish some things, which is a huge accomplishment. If the Republicans had won the last election things would be very different in some important ways.
We've had 'real' Wall Street reform? I mean, there's a few extra regulations now that didn't exist two years ago, but nobody doesn't think that the corporations still pull the strings, and if some sector of the financial market teeters on the edge of collapse, we'll rush in and save them with our taxes yet again.
Quote:I know that the "Obama is the same" thing is tempting, and I've thought it sometimes too, but when you look at the actual records of what the Democrats have done versus what the Republicans have proposed, on the key bills the Democrats have passed or are trying to pass (in the case of a second jobs bill, which is very desperately badly needed but won't happen; say thanks to the Republicans,m 700,000 to 900,000 (minimum) people who will lose their jobs because of the Republican filibuster of the second jobs bill!) such as health care, bank reform, jobs bills, the economic stimulus package (one of the few things that has saved us from this terrible economy getting even worse, which is of course why the Republicans are opposed -- they have not changed as much from the positions of Herbert Hoover as people would have thought they should have...), etc.
The idea of a 'jobs bill' is really a total fallacy. You can't snap your fingers and say LET THERE BE JOBS FOR THE UNEMPLOYED SLOBS. Job creation and deletion is a natural part of the economic cycle. Jobs won't be created until the economy as a whole grows healthier. There isn't one single part of it that can magically be fixed and the whole thing runs smoothly. I mean, unless you create a million new positions in the government, but that's a really awful idea.
I still dream of the idea that there will exist a comprehensive army of accountants which can exercise bloodletting on all aspects of government spending, and contrive ways to maximize efficiency. I sincerely believe that we can operate at least at the levels we're used to with vastly-reduced expenditures if we eliminate most of the secrecy and dirty-dealing. I think the beginning of this most needed reform is to eliminate the concept of politics as a career and institute term limits upon every elected position in the United States. There's far less incentive to create personal power bases and nest-feathering when your tenure has a pre-determined expiration date.
Quote:Sorry, but the Democrats are not nearly as shameless and unified in their reversals as Republicans. Democrats would actually have moral qualms about flipping 180 degrees on their position on an issue in the space of a couple of years, while for Republicans it's par for the course and not even something to remark upon...
(See: Should we get rid of the filibuster, positions in 2005 and now...)
See: All the Democrats who supported and funded the Iraq War until such support became a liability to them.
Quote:So you're a birther too?
Weltall Wrote:I don't care one iota about the birth certificate
. . . but, I do wonder why Obama hasn't simply shown it already. He could silence all of the noise in five seconds. One could argue that it makes the birthers look vindictive (certainly it does), but vindictiveness is precisely what the disaffected right in this country want right now.
I believe that, if he showed the proper documents, everything would hash out and most of the critics would shut up. What I don't understand is why he hasn't. Machiavelli, he's not.
Obama's Hissy Fit - EdenMaster - 30th June 2010
Weltall Wrote:I do wonder why Obama hasn't simply shown it already. He could silence all of the noise in five seconds. One could argue that it makes the birthers look vindictive (certainly it does), but vindictiveness is precisely what the disaffected right in this country want right now.
I believe that, if he showed the proper documents, everything would hash out and most of the critics would shut up. What I don't understand is why he hasn't. Machiavelli, he's not.
You don't honestly think that will really shut them up, do you? All it will do is end the current debate, and begin the "he forged the document" debate. The lunatics who believe that nonsense are so stuck in the belief that they will never be swayed. You can take them back in time to watch his mother give birth to him in Hawaii and they still would call foul.
Everyone knows actual evidence has no place in a conspiracy theory (see: Moon Landing, JFK Assassination).
Obama's Hissy Fit - Weltall - 30th June 2010
There's a difference, though.
It's one thing to say "he won't prove he was born here", because presenting a birth certificate would prove it, and probably would satisfy most people who harbor at least some doubt on the matter. The people who would not be satisfied are, of course, predispositioned to that mindset--but it's a much harder sell to go with "but it's forged!!" because then the burden of proof shifts to you.