Quote:B. Abortion is wrong because it takes life.

Darunia Wrote:Abortion is wrong because is impedes, prevents, and kills, a human-in-the-making that would otherwise one day grow to adulthood.

Darunia Wrote:The fault of the rapist my good sir.


Allow me to explain it to you in means with which I can better illustrate.

CHUCK RAPES SUE.

SUE IS IMPREGNATED.

(Enter Little Chuck)

CHUCK GOES TO JAIL.

SUE: Eegads! Get this thing out of me!

(Sue goes to abortion clinic)

SUE: Take those forceps doc and remove this living, breathing organism, a human being in waiting, of my own flesh and blood, a human being with half my DNA, one that in all likelihood would live to enjoy a full, happy life regardless of the origins of his father, one that will in turn marry and have children, and one that over time will be the progenitor of until thousands more offspring! GET IT OUT OF ME!

(Doctor proceeds to remove unborn fetus with triceps (an actual procedure).)

DOC: There you go, ma'am. The unborn child is now defunct. Yes, I agree, if the poor child had known that his father was a rapist, he certainly would have wanted to be aborted. The child had no future and no right to live, given that his father attacked you. That'll be 99.95, cash or charge? Thanks! Have a nice day.


And when I say "convenience," I mean it.

Putting issues of rape aside, the vast VAST majority of abortions are done, no questions asked. Let's forget, this is a totally legal process. Life isn't sacred, it can be quantified, numericall added and subtracted, and it fits quite conveniently on one's health care bill... (if the Dems get their way.)

Darunia Wrote:To argue this is the claim that US soliders in Afghanistan are wrong when they kill Taliban insurgents, and poultry farmers are wrong when they provide us with chicken.

This argument is not about all life. It's about abortion.

Abortion is wrong because is impedes, prevents, and kills, a human-in-the-making that would otherwise one day grow to adulthood.

Quote:Why should she be punished by carrying a child

Quote:What's the most interesting, though, is how abortion opponents "justify" opposing life and health of the mother exemptions... they seem to believe that it's better for someone to die or be badly hurt (perhaps irreprably) than be saved, because the only way to save them is to give them an abortion.

Quote:But it's not like most abortion opponents really care about that, it's only women dying after all and being anti-abortion is nothing if not extremely sexist (yes, some women are anti-abortion. But ever notice how the percentage is dramatically, dramatically lower than it is of men? It's harder for people directly affected by it to be anti-abortion... but it's not like a lot of men care).

Quote: Obviously religious reasons play a huge part, but even there I'd think there might be room for at least strong "life and health" exceptions in their horrible anti-abortion laws they keep trying to pass... but no, often not.

Quote:And of course, that's not even addressing the fact that if abortion was banned all that happens is it moves to the back alleys again, where the deathrates go way, way up. Considering what I said above about abortion opponents and women, though, obviously they do not care one bit about that.

Quote:because abortion is never justified even if the mother's life is threatened

Darunia Wrote:Rephrase that. I don't understand what you're saying.

Quote:Ok up until here this has been a civil argument but if you're going to start making disgusting, untruthful accusations at me I'm going to have to tell you to go fuck yourself.

Quote:Horrible anti-abortion laws. Because any law that prevents women from putting fucking forceps in their vaginas and forcibly removing unborn fetuses is horrible. Who could fucking see anything objectionable to that? Who would ever find anything wrong with pulling a squirming bloody dying fetus from between a woman's legs? What's wrong that that? Only a fool would look at that and find objection to it!

Quote:Open your fucking eyes. I've said that is the one instance where I would allow it.

DARUNIA Wrote:Well, you just hug and kiss your mother the next time you see her for HAVING MORE RESPECT FOR LIFE THAN YOU DO AND NOT ABORTING YOU.

Quote:This argument will go nowhere except to cause continued anger so I don't know how much point there is to continue it for too long, but I will for a little longer at least.

Quote:Abortion foes claim to care about life, and then oppose "life and health" exemptions, proving their hypocrisy.

Quote:Geno's point that abortion opponents are usually also national health care opponents is also a very good one, and another case of massive hypocrisy. If they care so much about the health and welfare of the American people, they should be advocates for welfare reform... for single-payer, preferably, because that would actually work.

Quote:But no, they're somehow opposed to actually giving poor people actual competent health care. They only oppose abortion because of religious missionary zeal ("It's murder!"), not because of much actual real concern for people's welfare.

Quote:They only oppose abortion because of religious missionary zeal ("It's murder!"), not because of much actual real concern for people's welfare.

Quote:On that note, yes, the Catholic church does consider birth control murder too, because it ends a potential life, and because they believe that sex should never be for fun but should only ever be done for making children -- because humans are corrupt and evil (the Original Sin, remember), so we cannot be allowed to enjoy it, oh no...

Quote:Anyway, that is why the Catholic Church opposes birth control and abortion, and is why we have an anti-abortion movement today. You're not religious, yet it is religion that is behind your entire side's argument pretty much...

Quote:Oh yeah, and that opposition to birth control has played a key role in the spreading of AIDS and other diseases in Catholic countries, and of the massive, dangerous population explosions in some third world countries, because those attitudes are the exact opposite of what the people in those countries so desperately need... These are not separate issues.

Quote:It's not disgusting or untruthful, it's fact. Sexism is a major point behind the pro-choice side, it's very real, and it's one of the most important, most central factors in the debate.

Quote:To be short, again, the percentage of men that oppose abortion is much, much, MUCH higher than that of women.

Quote:As I said, there's a very good reason for that -- women actually know somethign about it because they can have children, so they realize what "abortion is illegal" actually means. Men, however, who don't have to think about it, only think about it in the theoretical way, and don't even pause to consider for a second the actual facts such as I presented there.

Quote:That may sound like a different reason from what I said there, but it's actually not. The reason why they're not stopping to consider it is partially because they don't have to, but partially because of sexism that causes them (consciously or not) to think less of women than men. It's not exactly saying anything to say that our society is still pretty sexist, it's an obvious fact. That so many men oppose abortion is just another point on the long list.

Quote:... Ever notice how most of the Republican women in the House and Senate support abortion rights of some kind, while almost virtually all (or perhaps all) of the Republican men are opposed? Yeah, there's a reason for that. If those men were women, they wouldn't all be opposed, that's for sure. They'd support women's rights, as many women and liberals do, instead of opposing them, as many conservatives do. But they are not, so oppression continues.

Quote:Women are a majority of the American population, hopefully eventually these attitudes will come back to bite the Republicans... here's hoping, anyway. Their anti-minority attitudes sure are, at any rate! Good luck winning Texas in a few decades as its Hispanic population increases if Republicans continue to hyperventilate about how evil Mexicans are...

Quote:The problem is, you're trying to conduct a theological debate here, as of course has been said... the issue of when a life is not an absolute.

Quote:Oh yeah, and as always, abortion opponents have absolutely no answer for the point that women are going to ignore anti-abortion law anyway, get them done in secret, and then sometimes die of it. People our age today don't remember what those days were like, but my mom for instance does...

Quote:So people like you think that it would be better if women were dying back alleys with no medical care instead of getting the help they need to end their pregnancies.

Quote:Utterly despicable. I guess the "response" is "well, fewer 'people' overall would die", but you're putting a priority on early fetuses over actual humans, and that's just not right.

Quote:Those self-righteous anti-abortion people, you are supporting murder too... you just won't admit it.

Quote: restrict choice. Call it "protecting the innocent" instead of "trying to hold back the advancement of women's rights". I however totally disagree.

Honestly though, overall, because of the whole "MURDER" thing, I can understand why it is such a tough issue... gay marriage I can see going away as a major issue, but abortion... that one won't be so easy, and might never go away as an issue. The whole is it murder/isn't it/when is a fetus a human question is so difficult in so many moral, religious, and social grounds that I'm sure it will be a very difficult question for a long time to come, and for good reasons.

Quote: And it is a matter of choice; it is not your (or my) body.

Quote:On that note, I almost didn't notice it because I wasn't reading every post in the thread, but I did now... your defense of opposing abortion in cases of rape is utterly despicable.

Quote:My point there was that anti-abortion laws often do not have such exceptions, and when they are put in it is usually only because they think that there is a slightly higher chance of the thing somehow getting through with the exemption, not because they actually care about saving lives.

Quote:Sounds like your mother is a whore. So, to recap your logic: If something is illegal and dangerous, but people do it anyway, then it should not be illegal. So, cocaine should be legal, because people do it in back alleys and die from it occasionally.

Quote:Sounds like your mother is a whore.

Quote:The fact of the matter is that pro-choice people don't like abortion either; they just see it as a necessary right to protect women. At the same time, I don't think sexism has very much to do with why others are pro-life; I believe it has more to do with concern for the fetus and its right to live, and that fetus just so happens to be a parasite on the woman's body.

Geno Wrote:Dude. ASM. Seriously. Gross.

Fittisize Wrote:Good God, so now a woman who gets an abortion is a "whore"? Why do you hate women so much?

Geno Wrote:Much of our arguments aren't directed at you, Darunia, but rather at the anti-abortion crowd in general. We know you're not religious, but the average pro-lifer is. In my opinion, most pro-life people I've known were against abortion for the same reason as you, because it's horrible and disgusting and it involves taking the life of a potential human being. Some will often bring God into the argument, but for the most part, they oppose abortion because they care about the fetus's right to live.

Quote:Let's put it this way: I don't think anyone who's pro-life is being consciously sexist (and again, I've known some very hardcore pro-life women).

Quote:I will definitely agree with you about the abstinence-only movement. This movement is religiously driven and does not help the situation at all. Pregnancy prevention is by far the best answer to the abortion debate if people will get over the whole idea that cumming outside of a vagina is a sin. You can use all the scare tactics about pregnancy and STDs you want, but when two people are horny and attracted to one another, they're going to do it, and so condom and birth control awareness is the best way to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, and by extension, an abortion.

Fittisize Wrote:I think you're right that nobody likes abortion, pro-lifers or pro-choicers (and in fact the pro-choice movement are doing things to raise awareness for safe sex behavior which would prevent the number of unwanted pregnancies, opposite from the pro-life abstinence-only approach which prevents jack shit), but it is indeed very sexist. It's evocative of the gendered idea that women are natural care-givers and mothers, baby-making machines and so on and so forth, and really nothing else. Wanting to do something as shocking as to not want to be a mother is a serious deviation from their natural and expected behaviour as women. Restricting their right to have an abortion is saying that women don't have the capacity to make proper decisions regarding their own bodies. It's just another form of subjugation.

alien space marine Wrote:Its fake , It makes fun of myths about the Chinese.