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+--- Thread: "hero" shot trying to save someone (/showthread.php?tid=4399)
"hero" shot trying to save someone - Dark Jaguar - 29th May 2007
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007240298,00.html
This is an interesting story and everyone's quick to call the guy a hero for trying to save the day and catching a bullet, but in all likelyhood if the guy had called the cops instead, no one would have been hurt. I mean the muggers still got away so he really didn't accomplish anything. Generally speaking police frown on this sort of behavior unless there is a clear and present danger to someone else at the time. Money's not worth getting shot over.
"hero" shot trying to save someone - alien space marine - 30th May 2007
Next time I hear " a gun control advocate" in the news I hope it was due to being crushed by a bus.
"hero" shot trying to save someone - Dark Jaguar - 30th May 2007
Perhaps you could rephrase that? I'm not sure what you meant.
"hero" shot trying to save someone - alien space marine - 30th May 2007
Dark Jaguar Wrote:Perhaps you could rephrase that? I'm not sure what you meant.
If I should hear about a gun control advocate in a news headline , I hope it is because such a advocate has been crushed on the road by a crazed homicidal killer driving at the wheel of a pick up truck.
"hero" shot trying to save someone - alien space marine - 30th May 2007
![[Image: twoways_s.jpg]](http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/twoways_s.jpg)
"hero" shot trying to save someone - Dark Jaguar - 30th May 2007
I'm sorry but your point as it relates to this is still not clear. Could you please rephrase?
"hero" shot trying to save someone - EdenMaster - 30th May 2007
I believe what ASM is trying to say is that if the intended victim here had a gun, they could have defended themselves rather than rely on another. Or, perhaps if the "hero" had a gun.
Oh when ASM hears about a gun control advocate, he thinks of situations like this where gun control <i>hurts</i> people.
And thus, wants to see gun control advocates die :D.
"hero" shot trying to save someone - Dark Jaguar - 30th May 2007
What does this have to do with gun control?
Lots of people just don't buy guns for themselves as they have no reason to get them.
At any rate, it is just as possible the guy would have been shot in spite of having a gun. Guns aren't perfect defense and can cause harm sometimes. I'd rather have borg style personal shielding myself.
"hero" shot trying to save someone - A Black Falcon - 30th May 2007
Far, FAR more people would die (or do die) from accidents or from someone getting their hands on a gun "for protection" than are ever saved by someone having a gun on them when they are attacked. This is said every time there is a shooting, and it's completely crazy. Innumerable accidents, misfires, and people taking a gun they know is there and doing something violent with it compared to a relative handful of cases where someone was actually protected by having a gun on them? It's obvious which is the better way.
"hero" shot trying to save someone - Dark Jaguar - 30th May 2007
There's plenty of room for debate I'm not about to get into about having self defense in the event of being attacked, but in this case, it was a mugging.
We all know how these things go down. Give them your money and nobody gets hurt. If they demand you go with them, THEN you fight back because your chances of survival are close nill if you go with them. In this case, acting the hero will just get you hurt, as this guy found out empirically. This guy had no reason to actually attack them at the moment he did and he wasn't just endangering himself. Escalating these situations is unwise, as any police officer will tell you.
That said, if an actual police officer was there, they have the training to escalate the situation in a way that is on average much safer for everyone involved, except maybe the muggers.
Had the person clearly shown intent to kill or seemed unstable enough to just lash out in violence at any moment, then I'd be all for this guy doing what he did. Anyway, that said, in these situations the guy probably didn't have much time to think about the nature of the situation. It happened, I'd say it was a mistake, but let's move on and learn from it.
I will say that in the case where a clear intent to kill is shown, having a weapon is clearly the best defense. However, many carrying them around are likely to use it in situations like this instead because they are scared, and thus escalate non-lethal encounters far too often.
"hero" shot trying to save someone - alien space marine - 30th May 2007
Dark Jaguar Wrote:There's plenty of room for debate I'm not about to get into about having self defense in the event of being attacked, but in this case, it was a mugging.
We all know how these things go down. Give them your money and nobody gets hurt. If they demand you go with them, THEN you fight back because your chances of survival are close nill if you go with them. In this case, acting the hero will just get you hurt, as this guy found out empirically. This guy had no reason to actually attack them at the moment he did and he wasn't just endangering himself. Escalating these situations is unwise, as any police officer will tell you.
That said, if an actual police officer was there, they have the training to escalate the situation in a way that is on average much safer for everyone involved, except maybe the muggers.
Had the person clearly shown intent to kill or seemed unstable enough to just lash out in violence at any moment, then I'd be all for this guy doing what he did. Anyway, that said, in these situations the guy probably didn't have much time to think about the nature of the situation. It happened, I'd say it was a mistake, but let's move on and learn from it.
I will say that in the case where a clear intent to kill is shown, having a weapon is clearly the best defense. However, many carrying them around are likely to use it in situations like this instead because they are scared, and thus escalate non-lethal encounters far too often.
None of us where there . We can be free to criticize but either way Id much rather live in a society of "heroes" , were strangers in distress will be given assistance. Then one were nobody is willing to take a risk to help another or even bother to inconvenience themselves for valor.
Even If his choice in actions were far from prudent, His intent was still in the right place unlike another certain group. I hope he doesn't die and fully recovers, Not mention his attackers should be brought in to justice and charged with attempted murder and not just theft and illegal gun use.
Some forget that it was the subway Vigilante that forced NYC to get serious about its failure to protect the public.
"hero" shot trying to save someone - DMiller - 30th May 2007
I would much rather have a world where people aren't allowed to have guns and there is a rare chance I will run into a criminal with one than a world where almost everyone can carry a gun. If everyone is walking around with a gun stupid arguments that would normally lead to a fist fight could turn into stupid arguments that could lead to someone getting shot. The fact is that people are going to become violent at times, and if they have easy access to a gun it can lead to a lot of problems. It is true that guns in the hands of normal could people help in situations like the VTech shootings, but for every situation that guns would help there are countless more that would crop up. It just isn't worth it to allow guns on the streets.
"hero" shot trying to save someone - Fittisize - 30th May 2007
Funny, I would have figured that stricter gun control laws would have done more to prevent the V-Tech shootings.
"hero" shot trying to save someone - A Black Falcon - 30th May 2007
They almost certainly would have.
"hero" shot trying to save someone - Dark Jaguar - 31st May 2007
Wasn't it already illegal for that guy to have the guns he had?
Anyway, back to this topic and those who would rather people randomly flail around in an attempt to be heroic, haven't you heard the expression "discretion is the better part of valor"?
"hero" shot trying to save someone - DMiller - 31st May 2007
He technically got the guns legally, but a better system would have shown the mental health problems from his past and he wouldn't have been able to get a hold of them. If someone at the school had a gun it may have stopped his rampage short, but that's not what I'm advocating. We don't need to get rid of guns altogether, but there is no reason ordinary citizens need to carry around handguns or any gun that can be easily concealed.
"hero" shot trying to save someone - Dark Jaguar - 31st May 2007
Are you honestly suggesting everyone carry a shoulder mounted gatling gun instead?
"hero" shot trying to save someone - DMiller - 31st May 2007
Haha, no. I am saying that people shouldn't carry guns in public places at all, but I said it in a pretty convoluted way. I do agree that people should be allowed to own weapons to hunt with because some people enjoy that, but the standards to get a gun for hunting should be incredibly strict.
"hero" shot trying to save someone - Dark Jaguar - 31st May 2007
:D Actually I was making fun of that odd mindset I've come across that, more than people having the right to own guns, people have the DUTY to own them. To put it bluntly, some seem to suggest that if I don't actively purchase a gun myself, I must be against the whole thing. I simply have no desire to bother with it. I had a BB gun as a kid, and my dad taught me (as well as my siblings) basic safety and all that (to the extreme, I'd never seen him as angry as when he saw someone violating a gun safety protocol, and he wasn't the sort to not share this with strangers he observed). However, I've never been very outdoorsy (though I do find his series of comedy books ABOUT being outdoorsy very funny), so after time deleted that BB gun (as well as a greater loss to me, a pretty decent telescope, and some chemistry set, and a microscope, wait I still have that last one actually, somewhere) I never wanted to get another. My current self defense strategy is to avoid dangerous situations, and it's worked pretty fine. (Incidentally, my mother's idea for the best strategy to cleaning up a ruined urban gang war zone is military occupation. I forsee major political fallout from such a practice, not the least of which would be major riots involving both the innocent and guilty alike in those areas.)
I think that basically there's too much emotional knee jerk reactions to this issue. On the one hand you have the bunch that feels like their only means of protecting themselves is being forcibly removed by "the man" and they'll be defenseless from that point on. On the other hand you have the those that are convinced a gun in anyone's hand is just a death waiting to happen and that everything must be done to reduce the number of armaments in favor of saving human lives. There's a point to be had by both. Now I've said before that the "we need to be equipped so that we can rebel against the government" argument is rendered void by the fact that even if you give people fully automatic weapons, the government has tomahawk missiles, stealth bombers, frickin' tanks, and oh yes, the NUKE. We aren't overthrowing JACK unless we get THAT sort of fire power, and no, I'm pretty sure even the most extreme gun rights advocates don't want the average person to be able to go down to the local tank dealership and take out a loan on one of those puppies, perhaps fit it with an audio jack for their iPod, rig up a mini-fridge for drinks, pimp it out with underlighting and lights all up along the treads, maybe a liscense plate saying "My other tank is Galactus". That just leaves the other arguments for owning a gun, basically self defense, hunting and keeping the king of england out of your face, if he showed up... and existed.
Those aren't necesarily laughable things (except the kingy ding one, we're allies now and our country is pretty much impregnable against foreign invasion. Cannot. Be. Pregnated. Also terrorist attacks are of the sort you don't really shoot at to stop). So, really, it's (and this should be obvious) a complicated issue.