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+--- Thread: Freelancer!! (/showthread.php?tid=398)
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 6th March 2003
This game is the bee's knees! Everyone should get it, and we should all get online and blast each other and stuff. Come on!
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 6th March 2003
Hmmf. A space flight sim which uses the mouse and doesn't let you use joysticks, has no radar, doesn't have power management, and has no rolling? I strongly doubt its combat would come anywhere near as fun as TIE Fighter, XvT, X-Wing Alliance, Freespace, or the like...
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 6th March 2003
Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm a big space sim fan and nothing touches this game. It's got the freedom of Elite with the best flight combat I've ever come across. The lack of a radar works perfectly fine because of the way targeting works. Just read all of the reviews. Ign gave it a 9.2 and the guys at PC Gamer are all obsessed with it. Just d/l the demo and see for yourself. This is by far the best space combat game I have ever played.
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 6th March 2003
Here's what your boyfriend gamespot had to say about the controls:
Quote:One of the most distinctive features of Freelancer is its control scheme. Perhaps in order to appeal to a broader audience than die-hard simulation fans, the game eschews the use of a joystick altogether and instead offers a simplified mouse-and-keyboard interface. While other space sims have allowed the use of a mouse to emulate a joystick's functions, mouse control in such games was generally a poor alternative. Freelancer, on the other hand, was designed with the limitations and advantages of that input device in mind, and as a result its mouse control works efficiently and actually enhances the gameplay.
So you can take your TIE Fighter and SUCK IT!
BTW I never really cared too much for the X-Wing or Freespace games. I don't like linear space shooters. I want my freedom, damnit! Freelancer is like Morrowind in space. And PA called the multiplayer "Diablo II in space".
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 6th March 2003
Well then I disagree with Gamespot... while it could work, sure, it genericizes it... I imagine combat would end up more like Decent than Freespace, which for a space shooter is a bad thing... I LOVE space shooters. TIE Fighter is, IMO, one of the 5 best games ever made... and X-Wing Alliance and the two Freespace games are also really, really awesome titles. They are great... so so drastically changing (and genericizing) the genre can't do any good. Will it work? Maybe... but it makes it more like a FPS in space, not a unique genre... and that isn't good.
As for linearity, I have no problem at all with that.
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 6th March 2003
It doesn't control anything like a FPS. Just shut up and play the demo.
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 6th March 2003
I didn't say it was a awful combat scheme... it could work... but it will never be as good as a standard one. And its selling out to attempt to get better sales from the mass-market for a game in a admittedly niche genre -- space flightsims. I never consider that good... sure it could help sales for a title that could have ended up super hardcore like X or Battlecruiser... but its not a good thing for the genre. The last thing I'd want is for this to catch on and real space sims go even closer to extinction than they already are...
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 7th March 2003
You are hands-down the most stubborn person I have ever known. They changed the controls in order to make the combat more engaging, not to sell more copies. Why would a mouse game sell better than something that could use a joystick? That's the big appeal or space combat games! Great logic there, buddy! There's a reason why they chose to stick to mouse-only play. So just play the demo and stop bitching. You look like a really big idiot for criticizing the game before you've even played it.
Although I'm sure that even if you like the controls you won't admit it since you've already taken this stance. Far be it for ABF to admit he's wrong!
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 7th March 2003
Quote:Far be it for ABF to admit he's wrong!
Look who's talking...
Oh, and space combat games don't sell all that well. Same as flight sims... but probably worse. That's why there are so few of them... so making it more mainstream with mouse controls does definitely look like aiming for a lower common denominator.
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 7th March 2003
You're the King of stubborn, ABF. Just play the demo already. There's a very good reason why they chose to use the mouse and you'll for yourself why.
Freelancer!! - Great Rumbler - 7th March 2003
ABF -> :hammer: <- OB1
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 7th March 2003
This guy is insane. He's complaining about the controls and says that he disagrees with the reviewers (who have praised the controls) even though he hasn't played the game!
And when he finally does play the game I'm sure he'll stick to his stubborn viewpoint even if he loves the controls. He will never admit that he's wrong.
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 7th March 2003
OB1, that is hypocritical... you NEVER EVER change your mind on ANYTHING... so don't go acting like its so strange that there are other people here too who don't change their minds much...
Oh, and do you not read my posts? Its not about the quality of the controls themselves... its about dumbing down a great genre into something a lot more generic...
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 7th March 2003
Actually with the change to mouse controls things are actually pretty complex. Managing weapons, flight formations, and nanobots is key in battles. And with the new control scheme battles themselves are more strategic than the usual "run straight at guy, shoot, and turn around and repeat" combat in all of the other shooters.
The sad part about all of this is that you're arguing against the controls of a game you've never even played. If ignorance is bliss then you must be in heaven right now.
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 7th March 2003
I played it now... the control scheme seems like a cross between Descent and Homeworld... two good games, but not space shooters. It doesn't play like a space shooter... and combat is much simpler to do than in standard space shooters. Just point the mouse button at the ship and hold fire down... you'll kill them eventually (it takes a while... those guys have lots of health...). Ooh, deep.
Any space shooter with that control scheme is made easier... its a fact. Mouse aiming like that is clearly easier to do than joystick. Easier and simpler... but not more fun. Maybe it is for you, since you seem to not like standard joystick-based combat in spacesims, but for me, who loves that? No way.
Was the game fun, for the short time the demo lasts? Yeah... it felt a LOT like Wing Commander and Starlancer with a weird control scheme... which is expected given that its from the same developers. Those games have very simple combat, and that 'speed boost' thing to go between waypoints where you kill stuff. I always vastly preferred the more challenging and detailed combat system in the X-Wing / TIE Fighter series to Wing Commander's simple one... and Freelancer? It takes a very simple combat system (Wing Commander series) and makes it simpler with the mouse. Fun? Yeah... but it results in a game that plays more like Descent than Freespace... and that isn't exactly a good thing considering the genre its supposedly in.
Oh, and the behind the ship viewpoint is needed for the game to be fun... another huge departure from previous games. That is another hugely unrealistic thing... and not exactly welcome. It works in Rogue Squadron, but shouldn't be in hardcore flight games... but given that Freespace's combat is a lot more like Rogue Squadron than a mid/hardcore space sim, its not THAT bad.
As for the lack of a map, well, that isn't a huge problem because of how they have all those big arrows on the HUD pointing to other ships... it'd still be nice (I love the Star Wars sims' dual-circle radar system...), its not strictly necessary when combined with the behind the ship viewpoint and those big arrows.
As for power management... I really noticed its removal. Its probably the single biggest simplification in the game... I've never played a spacesim before where there are no consequences whatsoever for firing your main guns and with as few options you can mess with regarding ship systems. Great for newbies! But awful for someone who loves the depth power-management systems bring...
So, what we have is a game with extremely simple, originally Wing Commander-ish combat that has been given a big dose of Descent and resulted in a simple combat and control system that dumbs down that part of the game considerably.
However, it also has a very deep nonlinear aspect... with many paths to choose, lots of optional missions, etc. So that part of the game is interesting... but its still annoying that they changed the main gameplay so much. Its unique... and fun... but gets old. Too simple? Maybe... but that combined with the fact I never liked Wing Commander's style of gameplay (go to waypoint in hyperjets. Kill enemies. Go to next waypoint. Zzzz...) sure doesn't help... but still its a good game because of how it went back to the style of Elite or Privateer -- openended gameplay where you can do all kinds of stuff... which is cool. And helps a lot... if it was just action like Starlancer it'd be a dissapointing game like that one was because of all the issues with the game I've mentioned... but that mostly saves it.
Though I have absolutely no problem with linear games at all, its nice to play both kinds of games... and not many games are openended so when they are it makes them stand out more. Freelancer has gone back to that old style... which is cool.
Mind you -- its not the only openended space game... the Battlecruiser series is completely openended, but unlike this style (Privateer) it isn't a trading game... its actually on the other end of the scale -- the gameplay in that one is super hardcore. And I haven't played X or X2 but I heard those were also super-hardcore spacesims that might haveopenendedness too...
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 7th March 2003
Haha, what did I say. You'd stick to that viewpoint no matter what. That Rogue Leader comment proves just how far you're reaching. The game starts out easy with its combat, as all good games do. Once you get further along in the game it gets very tough--you will die. Many, many times. The controls themselves are simple but the combat can get very complex. You just can't get past the super-intuitive controls. You expect difficulty from the controls themselves, which is a very poor way of adding difficulty to a game. Once you really get into the combat you start to learn the most effective ways of strafing, thrust, and sliding, among other things. It becomes less about aiming and more about maneuvering and weapon managment, which is such a refreshing change after so many space shooters.
But hey, I know how you despise change even if it's for the better. You don't have to like Freelancer. Just live in your cold, dark little world where innovation and change is the devil.
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 7th March 2003
Why do you so love to misunderstand people? I'd love to heard how I disliked that game as a whole given how I said it was good...
As for innovation its only good when it actually improves things... it often doesn't. Like here.
Rogue Leader. Well the combat clearly isn't as arcadish as that game... but it IS arcadish, and you DO have a behind the vehicle viewpoint, so its not totally offbase...
Oh, and how exactly do spaceships strafe? I'd think its kind of impossible... they sure can't strafe in any other spacebased game I've ever played (except for maybe 2d sidescrolling shooters but those don't really count)...
Oh, and as for difficult controls, that isn't a bad thing... making the controls complex adds a lot of depth. I know that learning TIE Fighter takes time... there's the joystick (it only needs a 2-button joystick with a throttle, really) and then there are several dozen keyboard keys that are useful to necessary... like any good space shooter. You get a bunch of targetting keys, power-management keys (to change power levels, switch power between systems, etc...), weapons control keys, and others... Freelancer replaces almost all of that (it has some targetting and weapons keys of course). Is that inherently bad? No... its actually a quite unique battle system. Very easy to learn... anyone who's played a FPS (especially 3d ones like Descent or the like) can understand it... and the combat? Hold right button on enemy and manage your missiles (the weapon system where you have to pay for every missile, bomb, and countermeasure you shoot is pretty cool... adds some realism and complexity...), while using the left button and keyboard to keep behind them... simple. It felt like, as I said before, Wing Commander using a Descentish control scheme influenced by Homeworld... and some additions mostly its own like using left mouse to control your exact movement.
And I've never liked Wing Commander all that much.
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 7th March 2003
How do spaceships strafe? Rockets on the sides of them! Who cares? It makes for great gameplay. Once you learn how to slide it gets even better.
And do you actually think those games you play are realistic? If they were realistic it would take months to figure out how to control the ships. And then there would be no lasers, no sound effects (no sound in space), and it would be extremely boring.
If you like that cheap way of making games tough by making the controls unintiuitive, by all means have your fun. I'd much rather have more complex dog fights than crappy controls.
Quote:As for innovation its only good when it actually improves things... it often doesn't. Like here.
Oh really? So what, you're the authority of the universe now? Just about every single PC game reviewer would disagree with you right there.
But it's ok, ABF. You made up your mind about hating the controls before you even played it so now you can't go back and change your mind because that would be admitting you're wrong. God forbid.
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 7th March 2003
Quote:How do spaceships strafe? Rockets on the sides of them! Who cares? It makes for great gameplay. Once you learn how to slide it gets even better.
But it makes them so much like FPS controls... and spaceships circle-strafeing isn't exactly something I like to see...
Quote:And do you actually think those games you play are realistic? If they were realistic it would take months to figure out how to control the ships. And then there would be no lasers, no sound effects (no sound in space), and it would be extremely boring.
Of course they aren't realistic... but they are a lot more realistic (in their own laws of physics) than Freelancer...
On one end of realism, you've got Freelancer. Then comes the very similar (physics/style of battles excluding controls) Wing Commander. Then I'd say the Star Wars ones and Freespace... followed on the realistic end with Star Trek Bridge Commander, I-War, X, and Battlecruiser in increasing levels of depth and complexity...
Quote:If you like that cheap way of making games tough by making the controls unintiuitive, by all means have your fun. I'd much rather have more complex dog fights than crappy controls.
I happen to love classic-style controls... they're great! They are NOT unintuitive... they are complex, sure, but not unintuitive... you calling them bad is your opinion. Mine is that they're great.
Quote:Oh really? So what, you're the authority of the universe now? Just about every single PC game reviewer would disagree with you right there.
But it's ok, ABF. You made up your mind about hating the controls before you even played it so now you can't go back and change your mind because that would be admitting you're wrong. God forbid.
Its called an "opinion", OB1. You really need to learn to accept that other opinions can be as correct for other people as yours is for you... the way you seem to always assume that yours is the only remotely possible correct opinion on everything is infuriating!
I never said "This Is Fact". I said "This is what I think". There's a pretty big difference there that you never seem to be able to see...
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 7th March 2003
Quote:But it makes them so much like FPS controls... and spaceships circle-strafeing isn't exactly something I like to see...
It controls nothing like a FPS. The strafing is very limiting.
Quote:Of course they aren't realistic... but they are a lot more realistic (in their own laws of physics) than Freelancer...
Who cares? You sacrifice a tiny bit of quasi-realism for better gameplay.
Quote:I happen to love classic-style controls... they're great! They are NOT unintuitive... they are complex, sure, but not unintuitive... you calling them bad is your opinion. Mine is that they're great.
You can like them all you want, but they are most certainly unintuitive.
Quote:Its called an "opinion", OB1. You really need to learn to accept that other opinions can be as correct for other people as yours is for you... the way you seem to always assume that yours is the only remotely possible correct opinion on everything is infuriating!
I never said "This Is Fact". I said "This is what I think". There's a pretty big difference there that you never seem to be able to see...
Ha! This coming from the man who proclaimed that Wind Waker's look is flat-out wrong rather that "I don't like it". You have every right to your own opinion, but don't talk as if your opinion is the "right" one.
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 7th March 2003
First, a question. Have you played Descent?
Quote:It controls nothing like a FPS. The strafing is very limiting.
Close enough...
Quote:Who cares? You sacrifice a tiny bit of quasi-realism for better gameplay.
Not better in my opinion...
Quote:You can like them all you want, but they are most certainly unintuitive.
Complexity isn't inherently unintuitive... most of these games are fairly simple at first but as you get better you start to use more and more of the controls offered to you as you realize their usefulness...
Quote:Ha! This coming from the man who proclaimed that Wind Waker's look is flat-out wrong rather that "I don't like it". You have every right to your own opinion, but don't talk as if your opinion is the "right" one.
To me its wrong... and hearing YOU of all people talking about this is absurd and is complete hypocricy... the only person it'd be more absurd to hear coming from would be N_A...
Freelancer!! - Dark Jaguar - 7th March 2003
Pot to kettle: You are black
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 7th March 2003
Quote:Pot to kettle: You are black
Pretty much, yeah.
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 7th March 2003
Quote:To me its wrong... and hearing YOU of all people talking about this is absurd and is complete hypocricy... the only person it'd be more absurd to hear coming from would be N_A...
Good Lord, you always do this. You point a finger at people for doing the exact same thing that you are doing. You are the biggest hypocrite in all of internet land. You talk about your opinions as if they're objective fact and then accuse people of doing the very same thing. It's sickening.
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 7th March 2003
I don't say that any opinion that disagrees with mine is wrong. I say my opinion sure, but in most cases (ie not more serious debates like politics or something, but in most game debates) I at least admit that it IS my opinion that I'm stating... have you ever done that?
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 7th March 2003
Whenever anyone says "Metroid is the best game ever" it's a given that they mean to follow with "... in my opinion". I do that. But when you say "blah blah sucks and anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid", that's wrong. You do that with WC3 all of the time.
Freelancer!! - Dark Jaguar - 7th March 2003
You know, the whole point of what I said was.... never mind...
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 7th March 2003
Well I don't feel like I have to say 'thats an opinion' every time I say one...
Freelancer!! - Dark Jaguar - 7th March 2003
It's fun watching you two argue about something you both agree completely on.
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 7th March 2003
Shut up... stupid face.
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 7th March 2003
Hey, one more thing... only you could read Gamespot's review and see it as some kind of great positive review... for every good quote like the one you've got there there are several that show how not-great the game is...
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 7th March 2003
Are you blind? It got an 8.something. That's good for gamespot's screwed up review system. They gave Metroid Fusion a similar score. But everyone else gave Freelancer 9's.
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 7th March 2003
Oh, the score is decent (8.3)... I'm talking about the review itsself. They find the voices not that good, the action simplified and repetitive, the mission objectives not varied at all (kill stuff. No escort or defend ones where defending or escorting is actually important.), lack of strategic options in most of the classic ways spacesims have them (one more other than the ones I've already said is how they mention is parts of ships -- targetting specific ship systems is possible, but not relevant or useful... unlike most spacesims where its vital...), and complain that it isn't nearly as ambitious or deep as it was originally planned to be.
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 7th March 2003
It's true that it's not as ambitious as it originally was meant to be, but everything else is way off. Did those idiots play a completely different game or what?
Well this isn't surprising from the people that gave Serious Sam the GOTY award.
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 8th March 2003
Go read their whole review then come back and comment...
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 8th March 2003
Why? Those reviewers have proven themselves over and over that they're completely brainless. I respect PC Gamer's reviewers a hell of a lot more.
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 8th March 2003
Well, yeah... PCG is the best PC review magazine/site... but Gamespot is good and they wrote a quite good Freelancer review, pointing out both good and bad things about it...
What are my problems with the game? Two things.
1) Wing Commander-style. I never liked that action-first style (hyperspeed to next encounter. Blow them up. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.) anywhere near as much as the Star Wars sims' style... or Freespace or Tachyon to lesser degrees for that matter...
2) that control scheme, which I've already gone into great depth about.
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 8th March 2003
That's because you're insane.
Edit: In case you didn't get it, I'm only kidding.
Freelancer!! - A Black Falcon - 9th March 2003
Well I sure hope so... :)
What, nothing to refute my points? Too bad...
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 9th March 2003
What's there to refute? You're voicing your opinion. Congrats.
Freelancer!! - Smoke - 31st March 2003
Damn, you two finally agree to disagree? :p
Anyways, check this thread out about Freelancer over at Gaming-Age: No Black People in Space
Freelancer!! - OB1 - 31st March 2003
Yeah, I noticed that. It's not very realistic, is it?