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The Pledge of Allegiance - Darunia - 16th March 2003
Seems as if whenever Christians and their faith is cornered and they can't prove or find a real way out, they say the same thing everytime, their default defense: "No one will ever understand God, or why he does things,"
Great Rumbler, all God would ever have to do to eternally lead everybody to eternal salvation is reveal himself to the masses. Yet there is no proof. Your proof of God is "if he didn't creat the Earth, where did it come from? You see, there must be a God." Yet when we ask where God comes from, "he's always been". Why can't the universe have always been? Christianity is double-standards and blind faith...a giant, international, 2,000 year-old cult.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Sacred Jellybean - 16th March 2003
Quote:Great Rumbler, all God would ever have to do to eternally lead everybody to eternal salvation is reveal himself to the masses.
The typical rebuttal of this would be: "Well, God works in mysterious ways... you see, he's doing this all to test us. To test our faith."
Why? What's the point of all this? Doesn't it disturb anyone else that God wants to "test" us to save the "strong" and kill off the "weak"? What kind of twisted being is at work here? Who decides to go "test" people to see if they believe in his word, and either rewards or punishes them based on beliefs that he chooses? Freedom of thought should be a fundamental that goes WITHOUT punishment or rewards based on how these thought agree with an authority. All of these arguments make God appear very human-like to me.
This whole "Not everyone should get in heaven" is rather disturbing as well. It's too much of an elitest, exclusive notion for me to embrace, no matter how tempting it would be to sell my soul for such salvation.
These are all the problems I have with religion. I'm not saying I believe their is no god, I'm saying that if there is a god, then I'd be disturbed to think that all this is his word and his plan.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Dark Jaguar - 16th March 2003
Sacred Jellybean, the thing is according to God no one is a good person, and no one is capable of being a good person. Wow did that sound offensive or what? But, it's basically a very blunt way of putting it. God's standards are very high indeed, he demands total perfection. As a human, it's easy to take that offensivly and be upset, but that's the case. One imperfection will build, until eventually all of heaven could be torn apart. That's why God can't allow imperfection into this perfect place. Seems harsh doesn't it? Think of it this way. Imagine you have done something so terrible you don't think anyone can forgive you for it, like, oh say, killing babies and feeding them to people, while at the same time running all the other soylent businesses to bankrupsy through immoral business practises, and then spitting on someone from a high place every night. Then, you are forgiven.
That's the idea here. AND READ THIS STATEMENT BECAUSE IT SUMS IT ALL UP. Everyone has earned eternal death, and yet, with NO earning on our part at all, we are given the gift. God however allows us to either accept the gift or not accept the gift. That's all there is to it. We can take a gift we never earned, or accept what we do deserve. That's the reality, and wow is it a sober and kinda depressing one, but also a very joyous one. That's the idea of Christianity.
The only conforming is that we should all buy our net from the same company essentially. It isn't believing as in "knowing" it, it's putting your faith INTO Jesus, as in trusting your fellow soldier that you wont' get shot. It's not knowing the tensile strength of the bridge is enough to support your weight, it's actually walking on the bridge.
Oh, N-Man, it's not just the four gospels, Jesus is mentioned many times in the rest of the new testament. "The lamb" in revelation seems to most accuratly descrive Jesus. You may say it can be interpreted many ways, but only one interpretation leaves no contradictions, and the most important part of interpretation is CONTEXT. I can't source you, so you'll have to look for it on your own, but there have been quite a few shows on Discovery with much evidence showing that Jesus at least was a real person (of course prooving that doesn't proove he was actually a part of God incarnate).
The Pledge of Allegiance - Dark Jaguar - 16th March 2003
Would revealing Himself really convince you? Think about it, when you are so convinced He can't possibly exist, then if He appeared, would you suddenly believe He actually appeared?
Sure, He could FORCE everyone to believe, but then we wouldn't actually BE would we? Free will is inseperable from a soul. It pretty much IS the soul. If He forced us, which of course He could, it would turn us into robots, well, our bodies anyway. Our souls would either die off completely or be placed elsewhere. The point is that he cares about us, the souls, the things that have free will.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Laser Link - 16th March 2003
Quote:Weltall and almost all Christians are raised to believe in God.
That is partially true in the West, but not true in Africa, Asia, and the rest of the world. That is where God is really doing incredible things, because in the west we are rich and bored and all we ever do is argue about things like this instead of living it. I wish I had never made that first post. I only wanted to explain who I am and why I live this why, not argue and fight. Those of you who are defending God, I think it's great that you are willing to take a stand for your beliefs. But you must remember that fighting will only disprove everything you are trying to say. The Bible teaches in many places about sharing Jesus with others, and in every single place it encourages you to do so, but stresses that you have to be kind, respectful, and loving. Not angry, condescending, arrogant, or judgemental. Look up Colossians 4:5-6 and 1 Peter 3:15-16 for more info.
I am not singling any of you out and I really haven't read much of what you've said, but I feel the whole conversation is headed that way. Just be sure your heart is right or you will do more harm than good, okay?
To everybody else
First of all, to answer N-Man:
No you can't prove that Jesus lived. But if this was all a hoax, how did it ever become so powerful and widespread? How did a made-up story about a man who just served and loved with his entire life and was tortured and killed gain such acceptance. If Jesus never lived, who would have ever believed this story? If you wrote a story about God coming to earth, wouldn't you make it about the hero who overthrew all the evil governments and ruled justly and brought peace to earth forever? That's exactly what the Jews thought would happen to, and that's why they are still waiting for the Messiah to come. But the story of Jesus completely defies human logic. It's NOT the Superman story we want to hear, and it could never have been accepted if there was no truth to it. Does that make sense or am I off?
I'll do the best I can to answer some of your questions as best as I can. Why do Christians believe Jesus is the only way to heaven? Why can't we just be good people? Why is there evil and pain in the world if God is good? Why does God punish us if he loves everyone?
The most important part to all of this is that God is, always has been, and always will be perfect and good. That's what God means. That is the basis, and if you disagree with that then the rest of this will have no foundation. Because God is perfect and good, nothing that is not perfect can be with him. He made us to have relationship with him, but none of us are perfect. No matter how good we are for the rest of our lives, we will never be perfect again. You can't undo the past no matter how hard you try. So we can't be good enough to be with God. All of us deserve separation from God because he is perfect and we are not.
But God knew this would happen, and that's why he planned all along that Jesus would come to earth and live with us. He would go through the same life we all experience. Except being God, he was able to live a perfect life. He was killed as a criminal despite never doing anything wrong. When he died he took all the wrong every person had ever done upon himself and paid the price for us. That's why Jesus is the only way to heaven, because only through his forgiveness can you be made perfect in God's sight. All you have to do is believe it and thank him for forgiving you. That's it.
God desperately wants everyone to be with him forever. He made us so he wouldn't be alone, so why would he then condemn us for not being God and punish us and himself by separating us from him. He knew we couldn't match up and that's why he had this plan from the beginning. The most amazing thing is that it doesn't matter who you are or what you've done. You have already been forgiven, all you have to do is accept forgiveness. God couldn't have made it any easier.
You ask why there is hell if God loves us? Shouldn't there be a place for the people who have done evil? People like Hitler? If they went to heaven, wouldn't they still do evil there? It wouldn't be heaven any more. If God gives someone the chance to have relationship with him, and they reject it, shouldn't there be a place where they can be seperated from God? It's what they wanted afterall. Hell is that place that is devoid of God's presence, and therefore devoid of all good. Without God, the evil will only increase beyond imagination. God doesn't want anyone to spend eternity in hell, which is why he left heaven and died for us. He did all the hard stuff, all you have to do is believe. And you will be set free. Not just in the afterlife, but in this life as well.
No other religion teaches that we can be made perfect again. They are based on works, on being good enough. If you do good enough, God will have pity on you and save you. Or if you do good enough, you can get a better reincarnation. Or if you torture yourself then you can pay the price for your sins and God will feel that you have been punished enough. But how do you ever know if you've been good enough? Shouldn't there be peace if you are doing the will of God? But the truth is that Muslims and Hindos and the rest all live in fear that they have not done enough to gain God's approval. That's why some Muslims are willing to kill themselves and "God's enemies" because they think that that will gain God's approval.
On the other hand, I have an incredible peace that I didn't have before I gave my life to God. I know some of you will say I'm just making things up in my mind to make myself feel good, but it's not that. I'm not worried about terrorist attacks or war or dying in a car crash. It's not that I want to die- not at all, there is so much that I still want to do and experience. But I know that if life on earth ended today, life would really only be beginning. I am 100% confident in that. Are you 100% confident that if you died tomorrow you would just cease to exist? I don't think you are, or you wouldn't even be reading this. :) Now I'm not patronizing you at all, please don't think that. I think you desperately want to believe in God, but you've seen so much pain that you can't imagine a God who cares. You see Christians who are judgemental and full of hate and who live exactly the same way (or worse) that you, except they tell you that you are going to hell because of it. Those people have forgotten that they too deserve to go to hell, and they never did anything to deserve God's love or forgiveness. The make up rules to glorify theirselves while condemning everyone else. The only rules Jesus ever gave us were "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength", and "Love your neighbor like you love yourself". These "Christians" aren't following either commandment. I'm not going to judge them either, because it's not my place to judge. The moment I think I'm better than they are is the moment I start becoming like that. But it's plain that they are not following their namesake, and it breaks my heart because God's name is being slandered. I just hope they will see what they are doing.
I know you are searching for truth and you know that there is more than what you've seen, or you wouldn't waste your time talking about this. And if I was unsure of this myself I wouldn't waste your time either (or my time, since I just spent 2 hours typing this). I can't even begin to explain the difference in my life since I made Jesus my Lord, and I want you guys to be free too.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Sacred Jellybean - 16th March 2003
Quote:Sacred Jellybean, the thing is according to God no one is a good person, and no one is capable of being a good person. Wow did that sound offensive or what? But, it's basically a very blunt way of putting it. God's standards are very high indeed, he demands total perfection. As a human, it's easy to take that offensivly and be upset, but that's the case. One imperfection will build, until eventually all of heaven could be torn apart. That's why God can't allow imperfection into this perfect place. Seems harsh doesn't it? Think of it this way. Imagine you have done something so terrible you don't think anyone can forgive you for it, like, oh say, killing babies and feeding them to people, while at the same time running all the other soylent businesses to bankrupsy through immoral business practises, and then spitting on someone from a high place every night. Then, you are forgiven.
That's the idea here. AND READ THIS STATEMENT BECAUSE IT SUMS IT ALL UP. Everyone has earned eternal death, and yet, with NO earning on our part at all, we are given the gift. God however allows us to either accept the gift or not accept the gift. That's all there is to it. We can take a gift we never earned, or accept what we do deserve. That's the reality, and wow is it a sober and kinda depressing one, but also a very joyous one. That's the idea of Christianity.
The only conforming is that we should all buy our net from the same company essentially. It isn't believing as in "knowing" it, it's putting your faith INTO Jesus, as in trusting your fellow soldier that you wont' get shot. It's not knowing the tensile strength of the bridge is enough to support your weight, it's actually walking on the bridge.
I'm sorry, I just don't see how anyone can let such grandiose beliefs dictate their lives. You can believe what you want, I just don't understand it. It sounds like a very cruel organization of things, and I don't trust it enough to let it rule how I live.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Dark Jaguar - 16th March 2003
And with this, I step out now. I've explained the Christian faith as best I can, and made some defenses of it, but it's really starting to get into the "proove it" side of things. I'm a person who likes evidence for many things, but I also understand many things require faith, trusting in things you can't possibly be sure of. Being the kind of person who, although the RISK of trusting that enemy soldier that was kidnapped by a 3rd party along with you is quite apparent, is willing to do so out of faith as opposed to them doing anything to proove themselves. Faith is not something that needs to be "earned".
Anyway, I'm basically saying I'm going to stop being in this debate right now.
Edited to add: Well, I meant to post this right after my post, but apparently when typing it up two people managed to get some posts in. I guess I type slower than I thought... Well, LL apparently put my point for stopping this discussion a lot better than I.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Sacred Jellybean - 16th March 2003
I'll make this last post, but I really have to get on the ball with studying for my Physics final.
First off, Laser Link, thank you. That was a beautiful and heartwarming and elaborate way of putting, and I appreciate your input (though still disagree with it). A few rebuttals, as I'm an angry, immature teenager who always has to have the last word:
Quote:God couldn't have made it any easier.
I hate to be an ass, but technicially, he COULD have. He could have shown himself to us, or give us more signs of his existence. He could make a less obscure contact with us in our hearts (this is subjective, of course). I know that defies the concept of being strong and having faith, but I feel the doubt is too great for me to make such a life decision. I'm not whining, I'm just explaining my point-of-view, and why I'm too conservative to take that leap of faith.
Quote:You ask why there is hell if God loves us? Shouldn't there be a place for the people who have done evil? People like Hitler? If they went to heaven, wouldn't they still do evil there? It wouldn't be heaven any more. If God gives someone the chance to have relationship with him, and they reject it, shouldn't there be a place where they can be seperated from God? It's what they wanted afterall. Hell is that place that is devoid of God's presence, and therefore devoid of all good. Without God, the evil will only increase beyond imagination. God doesn't want anyone to spend eternity in hell, which is why he left heaven and died for us. He did all the hard stuff, all you have to do is believe. And you will be set free. Not just in the afterlife, but in this life as well.
Well, first, I don't believe in lumping everything into two categories. Good and evil? Surely there are lines in between. And what's stopping evil people from accepting God's forgiveness and getting into heaven? Why would God accept someone like Hitler into heaven, if he were to turn around and accept God's forgiveness, while a "relatively more innocent person" (I know no one's supposed to be guilt-free, but you get the idea) suffers for having REASONABLE doubt to this obscure god?
Quote:The only rules Jesus ever gave us were "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength", and "Love your neighbor like you love yourself".
These are values I would agree with if I believed 100% in God, but what about the 10 commandments? Where did they come from, where do they fit into the puzzle? If someone doesn't follow the 10 commandments, but follows the above two, what happens then? What about simply accepting God's gift? It's all a very confusing arrangement.
DJ/ I see your point, and yes, since religion requires so much faith, we're not going to get anywhere. We've already done all we can; explain our points of view in the most convincing way we can.
Whee?
The Pledge of Allegiance - Darunia - 16th March 2003
"---Africa, Asia, and the rest of the world. That is where God is really doing incredible things---"
So, giving North Korea nukes, having Democratic Chinese students run over by tanks, and having Ethiopians get aids and starve to death by the millions is what God's been up to the last few centuries?
The Pledge of Allegiance - Great Rumbler - 16th March 2003
Quote:Well, first, I don't believe in lumping everything into two categories. Good and evil? Surely there are lines in between. And what's stopping evil people from accepting God's forgiveness and getting into heaven? Why would God accept someone like Hitler into heaven, if he were to turn around and accept God's forgiveness, while a "relatively more innocent person" (I know no one's supposed to be guilt-free, but you get the idea) suffers for having REASONABLE doubt to this obscure god?
Hitler COULD have gone to heaven, but first he would have had to have been truely sorry for all the evil he did. You can't just say I accept God's forgiveness, you have to be truely sorry for the sins you comitted.
The Pledge of Allegiance - WhiteFleck - 16th March 2003
The only way any of us could ever make an informed decision on this is through research. I think it's clear we could go back and forth for hundreds of posts on the Semantics of God, but that would get us nowhere. It is possible for someone to know everything available for humans to know about God and still go to hell. It's accepting the gift that really defines who lives and who dies.
Here's a metaphor for it that I love, because it's simple and to the point:
Let's say I tell everyone here that I will give them $100. Does that mean everyone gets the money? No. Only the people who take it from me. You can say, "Oh, sure, I want the cash," but if you don't actually, physically take it from me, you can't have it.
Now, there's plenty of stipulations and other nits to pick in that, but it communicates the basic idea.
In all seriousness, though, if anyone actually wants to know how God works, check out theology. An actual theological study, though. There are people who publish books and papers on God of the same caliber as those published about science. If I wanted to know about the big bang, I wouldn't be doing the theory justice to read what some unpublished noname has to say on some crappy videogame website. :) These are issues that could potentially effect your soul, so maybe it's not something that should just be written off.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Dark Jaguar - 16th March 2003
Well, I gotta say LL once again bests me in explaining my point (WhiteFleck had a nice analogy). I won't argue this any more, like I already said (apparently after LL, that whole posting behind one's back thing gets me every time, and wow again he says what I wanted to say like 10 times better, and he says he's not good with words...), I just wanted to say "good job" and give a thumbs up.
The Pledge of Allegiance - A Black Falcon - 16th March 2003
Well. Several dozen new posts (while I was gone on vacation from Friday evening until Sunday evening)... given the subject maybe it is better I wasn't here... and I sure won't read it all. So much defense of the indefensible and/or wrong mixed in the posts...
Religion really isn't a subject that people who disagree on the issue can discuss. Why? Intractability. I can not see any possible way that people can believe in such a odd idea as god, or heaven, or whatever, in a serious way... do I see the appeal? Sure! Everyone wishes they could live forever! But is it even remotely sensible, or does it show up in the realm of the possible? Not even remotely close... and how people think otherwise honesly mystifies me.
Oh... and as for Jesus, did he live? Probably. Did he have a good message? Yeah... but no one has actually followed that message (well, a few people, but the number of people who actually do as Jesus wanted people to do is so small that its essentially no one...), so like most any reformer or 'prophet' who showed a better (if often less practical) way to live he should be listened to... especially when he has so many "followers" whose beliefs have almost nothing in common with his...
Oh, and LL, how does stuff like the Catholic practice of being able to pay the church to absolve yourself of sins work, exactly? :)
The Pledge of Allegiance - Dark Jaguar - 17th March 2003
Hey ABF, I'm no longer in the debate for the reasons LL stated above (he did a better job than me of saying it). However, I SO recommend reading each and every post above it hurts. The questions you asked were either answered OR don't apply to Christianity.
The Pledge of Allegiance - A Black Falcon - 17th March 2003
Questions? Where? I see me making some statements, a remark, and then one semi-question... :)
Oh, and I read most of LL's post, but there is only so much "I believe fully in a loving god and he loves you and jesus died for our sins etc etc" before I can't take it any more... and that's not much...
Oh, and DJ, I can see why religious people would leave when it goes to "prove". After all, religion requires faith with no proof outside of what the believers see and call "proof"... I mean, there is lots of "proof" of a deity. Miracles, "amazing" things happening, etc. What is most of it? 1) Made up. Very likely. 2) A amazing cooincidence or lucky event. Also common. 3) Nothing special, until made as such by believers. I bet that happens a lot too...
Religion requires blind faith in the impossible. That is a fact. You can try to "deny" it, but you can't... except maybe to you own minds which would be quick to accept things that have better explanations as "proof" of deities... And that (belief in the impossible) isn't something that I can even begin to do or understand why people so readily follow so utterly... I just don't get it...
The Pledge of Allegiance - Weltall - 17th March 2003
The Catholic church is it's own entity, outside of Christianity in many ways, in my opinion. The Church, in it's history, has been a nation, an empire, a vast beast with many arms that has always functioned more as a political body than a spiritual. The Church has a dark history of abuse, bloodshed, power struggles and control that spans many centuries. Don't judge all Christians by that lowest denominator. And just to clarify, I speak of the Church, and not of any who follow it.
I just have to wonder why all the atheists here are so militant. Don't you realize you follow your own religion? You choose to think that there is no higher power, but you still worship two things: Science, and yourselves. I've made the analogy at least once already, but you are all acting like missionaries, converting 'ignorant' people to your own beliefs. The only thing that really separates religion from atheism is God. Therefore, it is our faith, and not the religion, that you attack.
I also think there really isn't anything that hasn't been said yet, except that judging by the ignorance of the atheists in this thread towards Christianity and faith in general, I submit that you do not knock it until you try it.
I'm out.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Dark Jaguar - 17th March 2003
Well, actually I was pointing to answers to your questions in that last paragraph, well only one question :D.
Just to clarify, and I won't go beyond that (I really kinda feel guilty about just this much), above I made a distinct seperation between Catholosism and Christianity. Essentially I made that seperation due to the core beliefs of Christianity being essentially destroyed in that religion. My point being that your question about the Catholic stuff about playing to get into Heaven (and every other thing said about Catholosism) is about as topical as asking about Hinduism.
And to make it clear, many followers don't follow his teachings, because we all are lacking. The idea is that all we are doing is following Him, wanting to emulate Him, though we will of course fail. After all, if we were perfect, we wouldn't need to have a savior.
That's all I'll say. I think I cleared up any confusion you may have had. Any debating or anything beyond that I think would be kinda an insult to us both, as LL said. I make my point, you can choose to believe it or not, and as LL said (though you may not have gotten that far into his post), we don't mean to insult you. You and I are EXACTLY THE SAME, and I am no better than you at all.
The Pledge of Allegiance - A Black Falcon - 17th March 2003
I'm not trying to convert anyone... (very) religious people by their very nature are unconvertable...
Oh, and I'd say that Catholicism is a very major part of Christianity. Along with Protestantism and Orthodoxy... all different, but all part of the same broad religious family... and if you add Judaisim and Islam (because those two also believe in the exact same god and have many of the exact same religious texts at their base... things that I'd say make them very closely related in many ways...), its a huge percentage of the world's population... and Catholicism is the single biggest branch of Christianity. While it is certainly true that the Catholic church has at many times been a lot more than only a religious institution, that doesn't mean that as a religious group it changes their status at all... does it have its own, strange beliefs? Yes. But so do many Protestant sects... and Orthodox Christianity...
Weltall... religion = science? Hardly! Science has concrete laws that have been proven. Its basis does not operate on any theories. Theoretical science does... but that isn't the main part of science. Its facts. Proven, repeatable or concretely provable scientific facts. Does it have all the answers? Absolutely not. There is a lot of stuff we have no idea about... and science freely admits that it doesn't know that stuff. Scientists are working on some of those issues, but it will never solve all the truths... by its nature it can't... its always searching for the truth. The fact that that truth regularly upsets people often retards scientific progress, but never stops it completely... and I am sure that that cycle will continue.
Religion is not like that at all. It has all the answers ready for you... no individual thought is really required... and there is no theory, or things that it doesn't know... on the level of 'something you believe' I can see a connection, but beyond that extremely shallow level? Nope. Religion is simpler... safer... easier to understand... and a lot more comforting to people... not much like science at all.
Oh, and plenty of scientists are religious people...
Oh, and I went through most of LL's post on the skim level... because I just can't take anywhere near that much of that...
Also, I said from the beginning that religion wasn't exactly a topic that people which disagree strongly on should discuss much... it gets nowhere except anger and longer arguments...
The Pledge of Allegiance - Weltall - 17th March 2003
Quote: Weltall... religion = science? Hardly! Science has concrete laws that have been proven. Its basis does not operate on any theories. Theoretical science does... but that isn't the main part of science. Its facts. Proven, repeatable or concretely provable scientific facts. Does it have all the answers? Absolutely not. There is a lot of stuff we have no idea about... and science freely admits that it doesn't know that stuff. Scientists are working on some of those issues, but it will never solve all the truths... by its nature it can't... its always searching for the truth. The fact that that truth regularly upsets people often retards scientific progress, but never stops it completely... and I am sure that that cycle will continue.
Religion is not like that at all. It has all the answers ready for you... no individual thought is really required... and there is no theory, or things that it doesn't know... on the level of 'something you believe' I can see a connection, but beyond that extremely shallow level? Nope. Religion is simpler... safer... easier to understand... and a lot more comforting to people... not much like science at all.
Science is absolutely LOADED with theories. Anyone can tell you what E=MC^2 means, it's the theory of relativity. Albert Einstein is considered one of the greatest scientists in history because of this theory. I personally do not believe it, as it takes into account that time is tangible, and I firmly believe it is not. Science is also like religion in that a lot of belief in Science is based on faith, particularly about what we can do with it. How many times have scientists come up with so-called 'miracle cures', how many times do they hypothesize about what technology we might have in a hundred years? And science gave birth to science fiction, of course.
Religion hardly has all the answers for anyone, if it did, it would not be so widely and variably interpreted, since if it did have all the answers, there would be no way it could be open for interpretation. There would not be endless denominations of Christianity, who all differ in how they interpret the teachings of Christ. Again, you display your ignorance of the subject matter. I made the parallels between faith and science in that you worship science while we worship God. You believe Science, with enough time, can explain all the mysteries of the universe. That is faith just as much as someone who believes God created the universe is a demonstration of faith.
The Pledge of Allegiance - alien space marine - 17th March 2003
Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
Seems as if whenever Christians and their faith is cornered and they can't prove or find a real way out, they say the same thing everytime, their default defense: "No one will ever understand God, or why he does things,"
Great Rumbler, all God would ever have to do to eternally lead everybody to eternal salvation is reveal himself to the masses. Yet there is no proof. Your proof of God is "if he didn't creat the Earth, where did it come from? You see, there must be a God." Yet when we ask where God comes from, "he's always been". Why can't the universe have always been? Christianity is double-standards and blind faith...a giant, international, 2,000 year-old cult.
Your Total biggotry agiast christians is well known darunia , Most Atheist I know respect others belief and dont scrutinize it.
There are just as many scientific "theories regarding the origin of life and the universe but none have any strong proof of it".
Just the same as the destructon of the dinosuars is conflicted.
Your view of proof seems to be solid objects , all you have to do is look at a simple flower and you will see it has very inteligent design which has worked for thousands of years.
Many atheist begain to believe in god after one simple Biology class seeing the true complixity and organization of the human body. Better yet even just the brain in itself is impressive.
The book of Isiah is the oldest still existing scripture carbon dated well over 350(estimate) years before christ , Isiah predicted the rise and fall of Greece and the coming of rome and the future of Isreal well before any of these nations were anything significant. Ever seen the one horned Goat and the Ram ilustration , how the one horn defeated the ram but then was cut down and replaced by four horns?An angel later revealed the indentityof these forces greece and Medo-persia.
The Pledge of Allegiance - WhiteFleck - 17th March 2003
There's really nothing left to say by either side, as most every major issue has been beat to death. I would say debate on this is moot, but not because religious people are hardhearted, but because atheists are.
For some reason, atheists seem to think religion and science are incompatible. Why is it, then, that so many people who live by faith also thoroughly enjoy science? (That's not an imcomplete thought, it's an actual question)
The Pledge of Allegiance - Darunia - 17th March 2003
Why is it, then, that so many people who live by faith also thoroughly enjoy science?
And Hitler enjoyed painting; I suppose he was just a misunderstood starving artist. Science and religion don't go hand in hand because atheists said so, they dont go hand in hand because they blatantly clash. Religion says this, science says that---interpret it however you want to.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Weltall - 17th March 2003
Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
Why is it, then, that so many people who live by faith also thoroughly enjoy science?
And Hitler enjoyed painting; I suppose he was just a misunderstood starving artist. Science and religion don't go hand in hand because atheists said so, they dont go hand in hand because they blatantly clash. Religion says this, science says that---interpret it however you want to.
Many branches of science have no clash or interaction whatsoever with Religion.
The Pledge of Allegiance - WhiteFleck - 17th March 2003
The only real issue between science and faith is in origin theories. That's a very small part of science. Any one person who thinks that all people who use faith are ignorant fools is only proving themselves the fool. Don't be so foolish, people.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Laser Link - 17th March 2003
Quote:How does stuff like the Catholic practice of being able to pay the church to absolve yourself of sins work, exactly?
It doesn't! That's my point exactly! :) That was one of the many ways that the religious leaders used God to suppress and essentially steal from everyone else. (Crusaders, Conquistadors, etc... )They deliberately never translated the Bible into languages the common people could read (if they could read at all) so they could continue this practice and many others. History is full of examples of people using God's name for evil. That's why I stress that you don't follow people- we mess everything up even with the best intentions. God gave us his word, the Bible, to be the measuring stick. It's the only way we can stay on the right track. I don't think Catholics still do this, but I don't know a lot about it. There are some issues about Catholocism that I disagree with and I think are man-made rules that are not in line with the Bible, but for the most part those are external things that don't change the core values of the Gospel. That's what's important. I don't want to comment anymore on it because I am very ignorant on the ceremony and practices of the Catholic church and it wouldn't be right to say things I don't know.
About the 10 commandments. God gave the 10 commandments to the Israelites as their Law because at that time Jesus had not come. This was thousands of years before Jesus. The 10 Commandments were really just the big ones, as there were also hundreds of other rules that they were supposed to follow- good parts of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are devoted just to this. And they had to continually offer sacrifices as repentance for their sins. The thing was, the Law didn't change their hearts. People generally don't like to obey rules, in fact they usually have a strong urge to break them. :) And they were no different. Jesus talked about being a slave to the law, meaning that you were under continual pressure to be perfect. It was the good works system just like we talked about before. Jesus set us free from always following laws by changing our hearts so you want to do the right thing and giving you the power to change. And really, the 10 Commandments are just subsets of what Jesus gave us: love God first, then love everyone else.
You were also saying that God could just show himself to us, and that would be proof enough. But he did! Just not when any of us were alive. Jesus came to earth, did incredible things, and changed the world. It was recorded and is passed down even now. But because time has passed and none of us saw it actually happen, we don't believe any of it. If God came today and showed himself, I have no doubt that many people would now believe. But then a hundred years from now, or a thousand it would be "myth" again. Whatever proof we had of these events would be discarded by the modern, more sophisticated people as crude hoaxes we created to satisfy our simple minds. "Oh, that footage of God walking on water- just CG. Look, you can even see the Photoshop sun-flares. And those water reflections are so fake." God would have to prove himself every generation.
I know you wanted the last word, but I didn't want to leave your questions unanswered. You can still have the last word if you like, you just better not ask anymore questions. :) Oh DJ, don't feel like you have to stop. I only wanted to mention something that I used to fail at a lot so hopefully you guys would avoid it. I would get so angry and insulted and just attack people, and that's not good at all.
Darunia- I won't bite into your flame bait. I was talking about the churches of over 200,000 people in Africa. Or the rapid growth of Christianity in places like China or Muslim countries where Christians are killed immediately if the government discovers them. You'd think the threat of death would completely quell it, but instead the church grows like a wildfire. Because life is worth dying for.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Dark Jaguar - 18th March 2003
I won't say I'm a huge theologen either, but I do know from my mom telling me about Catholosism when she snuck out to them as a kid.
ABF, I must say that though you make the point about various religions worshipping the same God, that's hardly enough. Just because one link is there doesn't mean the religion is the same. It's the core of the faith that matters, and the core of Christianity lies in the idea that we can't earn our way to Heaven. From what I understand of what my mom and a few Catholic friends have told me, Catholosism has a system of works to earn your way into heaven, things added onto the Christ thing. The second you have a system of works that MUST be done to earn your way into Heaven, it stops being Christianity. I hope you understand that the difference is at the very core of the two faiths. The core is more important than ANY external similarities or differences. So long as the core is the same, it's the same faith. That having been said, most other denominations are just denominations. They are still Christians at the core of the faith, it's just external stuff they disagree on (I am non-denominational, purely because I don't think Christians should be fighting with each other on such non-issues). I hope you understand why the core being different is enough to completely seperate the religions. It seems you are kinda stuck on the "but you all worship the God from the bible" thing and don't see that that's not quite the core of the faith. I mean, if you replaced the core of a nuclear reactor plant with delicious Purina 1 cat food you wouldn't have a nuclear power plant would you?
I just will end with saying I don't see why science has to be so seperate from religion either. There is a key seperation of course, faith vs the whole concept of science, tangible proof (and yep, that's a biggy), but the thing is there's something wrong with going completely in either direction. Needing tangible proof for everything in life means you can't ever love anyone, or trust them, or really just live in happyness. You do have to just trust lots of things blindly, mainly in people. Going too far into the "faith" side however means you can really end up deep into a state of weirdness. You end up like I was, believing EVERYTHING that comes your way, no matter the proof, and as was the case with me, going way off mark in how to live my life. The key is to use "dicernment" and just make up your mind on what you need proof on and what you just will have to believe in. Myself, I require proof for scientific studies and news, but when it comes to people, and God, it's trickier. I just have decided to place all my faith into one thing, and ignore all other religions. That's what faith is, ignoring the other options in choice of the one you now know is right. They can live in harmony just fine, when you find a balance.
Oh, and Weltall, don't mean to rain on your parade at all, since I agree with most of what you say, but "theories" are actually what science works towards. What most people think theory means is what a hypothesis is. People think theories eventually become laws, but only certain things can become scientific "laws" and every law is still considered a theory. All a theory is is a set of explanations that accuratly describe given phenomenon that it's scope is supposed to define. If it doesn't accuratly describe all phenomenon in it's scope, it's a failed hypothesis. It's all semantics really, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Regarding e=mc^2, that particular formula has in fact very well been proven, as many people in two unfortunate places in Japan will tell you, since it was in fact the entire basis of nuclear weaponry. Now that's got direct applied proof, or something more complecated explains why those bombs actually worked, but in science there's something called Occam's Razor, which essentially is a tool that says "Given multiple explanations, always choose the simplest explanation for phenomenon that perfectly describes said phenomenon". Remember, this is a tool for science, not for faith, so no need to worry about it when going through deciding where to put your blind faith (oh, and faith by it's very nature is blind, it's kinda redundant to say blind faith). Again, just giving a stupid little mini-lecture on scientific methodology. Nothing important regarding the debate at hand in the lot of it, and your point is quite good. One must have faith when going forward that your science books you have studied are accurate (in a number of cases, they in fact are not) when studying any scientific field, so yes even in scientific pursuit, there's faith, which I do belive was your point.
Anyway, yeah I see your point LL. I guess I was afraid I wasn't seeing myself doing something and you were pointing it out. I certainly do not wish to get into some sort of name calling thing here, or the whole prooving God exists thing (though, to be honest, a God kinda follows the simplest explanation rule of Occam's Razor, multiple gods isn't as simple, and springing from nothingness certainly won't be a simple explanation).
One last thing, regarding something ABF said. You mention miracles and the explanations for why they could all be false as why we wouldn't get into prooving God exists. You nailed it right on the head there. All miracles can be explained away. Going forward from there, even if God did proove Himself constantly to all people all the time (that's obviously well within His power, and He could even beat Buu), would people actually believe it? Some might, but I'm pretty much positive that people would ignore the razor and go for all sorts of other explanations, like mass hallucination, or perhaps a strange effect of the sun, or maybe a part of the human psyche constantly revealing itself (psychologists would have no trouble here, after all if God is appearing all the time, the argument that it's humanity-wide genetic defect that we are all seeing (maybe they would even say animals see it, and in fact if God chose to let house pets see Him, it would only help that claim).
The Pledge of Allegiance - alien space marine - 18th March 2003
Many people dont belive we went to the moon ! despite the evidence.
God himself could be speak to the hole world and you would probaily dissmiss it. interesting enough many people dismissed Jesus miracles even as they were done right in front of them , God even said in a loud voice this is my son for all to hear . The jewish scribes and priest still dismissed it.
The apostle Paul then known as saul was a skeptic , it waisnt untill The angelic form of Jesus confronted him and prevented him from killing a gathering of his followers.Did he realize this was the truth and he was wrong.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Dark Jaguar - 18th March 2003
Just to point something out, the 12 apostles were hardly upstanding citizens. I mean, one was even a tax collector! Still, they were chosen because they best represent humanity it seems.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Darunia - 18th March 2003
God himself could be speak to the hole world and you would probaily dissmiss it. [/B[
Trust me---if I were outside, and an enormous face appeared in the clouds and talked to me, I'd do anything it said...God or no God.
[B]interesting enough many people dismissed Jesus miracles even as they were done right in front of them
When "Jesus Miracles" are things that would happen anyway on Earth (nonchalant changes in a unnoticable ways people would like to attribute to higher authority), I can see why they'd be ignored. When he does something REALLY amazing, he'll win me over.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Dark Jaguar - 18th March 2003
It seems you want to order God around, make things on your terms instead of His. Eh, I won't get into that. I'll just reiterate my point, which is "what is REALLY amazing to you?". I mean, what would He have to do to convince you? Big head in the clouds Mufasa style? Would that convince you? I don't think it would, but this particular mini-discussion is getting nowhere so eh.
The Pledge of Allegiance - WhiteFleck - 18th March 2003
What "Jesus Miracles" are you referring to, anyways? The ones like people getting better after a bout with cancer, or the biblical ones?
The Pledge of Allegiance - alien space marine - 18th March 2003
if you people would get past , is there or isnt stage....
you would see what the bible is really all about , People and their relations with each other.
If you could see logic and wisdom in the knowledge itself you wouldnt need miracles or physical proof.
All of you are closed minded and will miss out for it. If everyone in the world even attempted to follow gods way the world would be a better place.
"Does god not say be slow to wraith but quick to forgive", "Do on to others as you would want for yourself". Humans beings need godly fear and a high authority otherwise humans will continue to go on there own simplistic imperfect self indulgent empty meanlingless lives.
The main reason many people are atheist isnt becuase they dont have enough evidence but they dont have much conviction.
Religion does not cause violence , Hate and imperfection do.
Osama Bin ladin and all those other religous fanatical shit heads will be punnished for there sins agaist god , Vegence is to god not to man.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Dark Jaguar - 18th March 2003
Beware, or God will send His robots after you!
![[Image: god-jesus.jpg]](http://www.engrish.com/toys/image/god-jesus.jpg)
The Pledge of Allegiance - Darunia - 20th March 2003
The main reason many people are atheist isnt because they dont have enough evidence
No, actually I am pretty sure thats the reason. You're just speculating here.
And whats with this capitalizing he when referring to God? 'He' is a pronoun, not a proper name. Unless God is really vain, I dont see why he'd demand pronouns be capitalized in his presence.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Weltall - 20th March 2003
He is vain. He makes it quite clear that he's a jealous God. Read your Ten Commandments sometime.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Dark Jaguar - 20th March 2003
Yeah, He thinks very highly of Himself, but of course in His case, it's totally deserved.
Oh, and grammatically speaking, when reffering to God, you always capitalize the first letter of the pronouns. Actually, technically that also applies to Satan, but for some reason I'd rather not.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Darunia - 21st March 2003
He is vain. He makes it quite clear that he's a jealous God. Read your Ten Commandments sometime.
He IS vain and jealous...doesn't sound like a perfect being to me at all. What does he have to be jealous of...? If he's the only god, he has no competition; he's not all-understanding if he pouts when I don't capitalize god.
And they're not my ten commandments, their yours.
The Pledge of Allegiance - A Black Falcon - 21st March 2003
I see no reason at all to continue this when there is absolutely no way that it'll go anywhere and any point I make you will either explain away with faulty logic or ignore... so I see no point in it...
The Pledge of Allegiance - Darunia - 22nd March 2003
and any point I make you will either explain away with faulty logic or ignore... so I see no point in it...
Diddo.
*Goron troops raise flag of victory over the smolten remnants of the atheist thread*
The Pledge of Allegiance - Sacred Jellybean - 22nd March 2003
Haven't any of you ever watched Dogma? It's SHE. Put faith in Her and She'll be all you'll ever need. :p
Perfection is relative to each person's idea of it. I say that if god has so many adverse human qualities, I'd rather not bow before her as the "perfect, supreme being". She can kiss my rosy, barbequed ass as I burn for all eternity. :shake:
You gotta love the free thought she gave us all. Silly, silly god.
The Pledge of Allegiance - alien space marine - 22nd March 2003
Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
[B]He is vain. He makes it quite clear that he's a jealous God. Read your Ten Commandments sometime.
He IS vain and jealous...doesn't sound like a perfect being to me at all. What does he have to be jealous of...? If he's the only god, he has no competition; he's not all-understanding if he pouts when I don't capitalize god.
And they're not my ten commandments, their yours. [/B]
Gods Rivals are Materialism , Greed , Imorality ect...
God is not a Wraithful creature as you seem to claim in slander, Darunia.
"God" is a Title just like "Lord" or "President" and "King",Its not a law in the Ten comandments but infact a law in the English Language.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Darunia - 23rd March 2003
Gods Rivals are Materialism , Greed , Imorality ect...
Being that God created the universe, didn't he also create these...?
god is not a Wraithful creature as you seem to claim in slander, Darunia.
I'm pretty sure the he is referred to as a "jealous", and yes, "wrathful" god somewhere in there.
"God" is a Title just like "Lord" or "President" and "King",Its not a law in the Ten comandments but infact a law in the English Language.
It's just a title? So...could I give myself it...being that 'god-hood' is just a title?
*Darunia fails to capitalize god; is arrest by agents of the English Language...incarcerated for 15 minutes, pays a fine of $.50*
The Pledge of Allegiance - alien space marine - 23rd March 2003
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Darunia
[B]Gods Rivals are Materialism , Greed , Imorality ect...
Being that God created the universe, didn't he also create these...? ]
God created the pontential for free will.
Why waste my breath on you Darunia , Your completely closed minded and set in your ways.
watches a burning bush , Light Darunia's house on fire.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Darunia - 23rd March 2003
Alien Space Marine, I'm the one supporting the facts here...your information is rooted in highly iffy biblical writing. I'm not closed minded...it's you. You're so mindest that you're right that you would never consider that maybe there isn't a god. I from time to time have pondered it--I ASSURE YOU---but I just can't be convinced.
The Pledge of Allegiance - A Black Falcon - 23rd March 2003
Yeah... the most amazing thing about religous zealots (or even just ardent believers) is how they manage to convince themselves that their strongly biased and completely impossible to even begin to prove beliefs are fact... it makes discussion impossible.
You cannot argue with people who are that certain that they are absolutely correct.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Dark Jaguar - 23rd March 2003
yeah really... *irony detector explodes*
The Pledge of Allegiance - A Black Falcon - 23rd March 2003
There is a HUGE difference between things backed up by scientific facts that are able to be proven beyond question (to any reasonable person anyway...) and religous beliefs based on some books and blind faith... and the fact that you can't see that difference just highlights why this debate is so pointless...
The Pledge of Allegiance - alien space marine - 24th March 2003
Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
Alien Space Marine, I'm the one supporting the facts here...your information is rooted in highly iffy biblical writing. I'm not closed minded...it's you. You're so mindest that you're right that you would never consider that maybe there isn't a god. I from time to time have pondered it--I ASSURE YOU---but I just can't be convinced.
Its my personal choice to belive in god it is also my personal conviction, Just the same as I belive my parents love me I would never even think that they dont.
[here...your information is rooted in highly iffy biblical writing. ]
your comment there prooves your biased biggotry right there,Its as bad as me saying your parents are Liars.
The Bible is not a scientific book as it was not written for that purpose , though they are some scientific facts in it , such as the Earth is circular and hangs on nothing as qouted by Isiah.
There is absolutely nothing today to prove that Gods does not exist , I dont go for blind faith I have to believe in what I am dedicated too I dont just beliveve any old bullshit like you seem to stereotype people of faith with.
Darunia Ive have met some pretty open minded atheist before that didnt scrutinize what I belived in and thuss got the same respect in return.
I am not trying to change your beliefs I am trying to defend mine,
Due to your tactless comments.
The Pledge of Allegiance - Darunia - 24th March 2003
your comment there prooves your biased biggotry right there,Its as bad as me saying your parents are Liars.
Biggotry? I'm not insulting your parents, expect in as much as they're indoctrinated from birth to believe in religion. I can call a retard retarded and a chinese person oriental, but I can't call a religious person indoctrinated from birth...?
There is absolutely nothing today to prove that Gods does not exist , ...theres also nothing prove that dragons and unicorns don't exist...but some of us know better. I dont go for blind faith I have to believe in what I am dedicated too If only that were true.
Darunia Ive have met some pretty open minded atheist before that didnt scrutinize what I belived in and thuss got the same respect in return.
Whoa, buddy; I'm not gonna lynch you...and perhaps I'm not the most open-minded person...such is a fault of my character...just like sometimes I stutter on words...are you gonna kill me for that?
The Pledge of Allegiance - alien space marine - 24th March 2003
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Darunia
[B]your comment there prooves your biased biggotry right there,Its as bad as me saying your parents are Liars.
Biggotry? I'm not insulting your parents, expect in as much as they're indoctrinated from birth to believe in religion. I can call a retard retarded and a chinese person oriental, but I can't call a religious person indoctrinated from birth...?
There is absolutely nothing today to prove that Gods does not exist , ...theres also nothing prove that dragons and unicorns don't exist...but some of us know better. I dont go for blind faith I have to believe in what I am dedicated too If only that were true.
[B]
I dont see why many Atheist can believe in Big foot and the Lochness monster without a any physical proof other then a few sightings and a few minor uncredible clues.Oh yes what about
UFO's?Alot of people beliveve they exist , Some under pure faith whos only evidence is... "its a really big universe out there".
( actually I do accept the posibility of Extra terrestials as you probaily do as well)
Yet you call us fools for believing in God or higher beings..
As for your last statement , I dont kill and I dont plan on ever doing it.