A Black Falcon Wrote:It's a disc, not a dpad. As I said, form matters as well as function, and they are not the same. Nintendo invented the D-Pad. Intellivision invented the disc. And as I said before, the disc isn't much more innnovative than the dpad was, given how it's just a joystick without the stick...

Quote: For the same reason that the N64 and NGC analog sticks are so much better than the PSX one, having some idea of direction (such as the eight-cornered joystick edge versus Sony's circle) is good...

Quote:That is completely irrelevant. The disc IS a D-Pad. It is a device in which pads contact electrodes, which controls the movement of onscreen objects. Since Nintendo's D-Pad is in no way different in fuction whatsoever, it is not an innovation or an invention by the very definition of the word. It is an improvement. If you want to tell me how much more useful Nintendo's D-Pad is, I won't argue. If you try to tell me they invented the technology, I will, because it's simply not true. There is nothing about Nintendo's D-Pad technologically that in any form or fashion deserves to be considered an innovation. It was an aesthetic improvement. Nothing more.

Quote: There is nothing about Nintendo's D-Pad technologically that in any form or fashion deserves to be considered an innovation. It was an aesthetic improvement. Nothing more.

Quote:I stress again, I mastered it while in preschool. Either that makes me a prodigy, or you're nitpicking just for the sheer sake of it.

Quote:How can you realistically use that in a game...?

Ryan Wrote:I don't understand how replacing a joystick with a pad that can be manipulated with just a thumb is a mere improvement, yet if you take that same exact pad and make it cross-shaped, it's the Jesus Christ of videogame technology. The Intellivision was the first console to use a pad. It made many games much easier to play. It changed the way videogames are played. Just because everyone credits Nintendo for 'creating' a technology that existed years before they came up with it doesn't mean a thing, except that most people are ignorant.

It's a shame all of you say so many things without ever even touching one of them.

Regardless of what you all choose to believe, the technology is the same. The shape is different. The cross-shaped D-Pad was an improvement, but by no means at all was it a major catalyst that forever changed video games. The NES was such a catalyst, but the shape of the D-Pad had nothing to do with it. As someone who has actually used both extensively, I know better than all of you the differences and similarities. The NES D-pad is more responsive and comfortable to use over extended periods of use, but it doesn't operate any differently. It doesn't make games any different, nor did the changes in design that appeared on the Genesis or Playstation. They all look and feel slightly different, but they do the same thing the Intellivision's pad did. Nothing more, and just a little less.

So please, actually use one before you try saying anything about it.

lazyfatbum Wrote:1.) You're arguing your points by agreeing with mine and others.

2.) As I told you before, I played Intellivision many times growing up and found it to be 'another Atari' which I quickly got bored with. Let's recap: It's a disk... with a TELEPHONE PAD. it is not a good controller for any type of video game from any era unless you have to dial a phone in the video game. It is uncomfortable, it is useless, it is a bad design, it is not used in any video games today or since, it is a failure.

Quote:3.) If it was not a major catalyst to the improvment of all video games then why do all 8-bit, 16 bit, 32 bit, 64 bit and all current gen and all NEXT gen controllers have a directional pad that is based off of Nintendo's and not Intellivision's disk? To offer a radically different design that renders other designs of the same function obsolete and creates a new tier or industry standard is innovation; That is a fact.

Quote:No one here is being a blind fan-boy except for you (and with Intellivision no less...).

Quote:It's obvious that Sony innovated the idea of controllers with dual analog sticks which is now in use on all current gen systems and most next gen. Nintendo opted for 'C-buttons' instead of a stick and the idea failed, as you can see no other company used that idea again. Sony's dual sticks set the standard. They innovated the standard. The same can be said about Nintendo's d-pad. They took an idea, and made it better. So much better, that it caused a major change in the industry.

Quote:4.) You have already proven your own ignorance in this thread (which is really, really confusing me) by arguing something that makes no sense. You are doing more of a job trying to convince yourself of your opinion and doing a bad job at that. The facts are in front of you, but you choose not to see them in the hopes that your OPINION will be seen as fact.

Quote:*We all agree that the Intellivision disk was a step in the right direction.

*We all agree that Nintendo's directional-pad is better.

Quote:*We all agree that no matter how much you or anyone wants to believe that the Intellivision beats Nintendo hands-down in the area of innovation in the creation of how we interact with games, it will always be a failed system that is quickly being erased from the history of video games due its lack of cohesive content and inability to withstand time (ie: sales of retro-Gaming packages including Intellivision games do not sell while Nintendio releases a 20 year old game for full price and makes money). if the disk was true innovation, THEN IT WOULD BE IN USE TODAY. But it's not, the D-Pad is. Long live the King.

Quote:*We all agree that this is a DUMB ARGUMENT.

Quote:*The tomato is possibly a fruit.

Quote: using that logic makes every controller on the market a rip off of the arcade stick and the roller ball.

Quote:Okay, so as a toy it was a success, but if you compare it to any video game system in history it was a complete failure. Except maybe if you compared it to the Virtual Boy. I'm sorry Ryan but that logic is absurd, it is a video game system and it is a part of the video game market and in that market it is a failure. I agree that it was still made for years, shit you can buy those plug and play systems now for 20 bucks that have Atari, Intellivision, etc. People would buy them for nostalgia or what have you, but in this industry the Intellivision was not a success as a home video game console.

Quote:You yourself said that the d-pad was an necessary evolution. If Nintendo made the NES with a disk instead, and Sega made the d-pad - We would be having a Sega Vs. Intellivision debate. That OMG CROSS design, is what makes a d-pad a d-pad, and it what makes it so innovative over the disk design. It was an evolution, and Nintendo founded it. In evolutionary terms, the disk on the intellivision is the is a mutant gene, the d-pad is the refined gene found in all DNA

Quote:I agree for the most part and I happen to like the c-buttons alot more than a second stick (PD ) but games like Pikmin and Luigi's Mansion could not have been done without two sticks. I think Sony wanted to make their controller seem better saying "we have two instead of one!" while most developers use the second stick for changing camera and little else, most of the time the same functions could have been applied to 4 c-buttons (which is basically a d-pad) anyway.

Quote:Hey lazy, does the analog stick part have a motion sensor though? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't matter where you held the analog stick part, as the machine would not be able to detect it.

Quote:As for this argument, all you two are showing each other is you have two different definitions for what constitutes innovation. Weltall sees it from a more technical standpoint, and lazy sees it more from the view of what effect it has in the industry. By the latter, it's hard to call any invention that fails an innovation because it failed. By the former, every invention that is original enough in it's functionality is an innovation, even if it never even makes it off the drawing board.

Neither one is wrong. I tend to go with the former myself simply because I'm a technically minded person, but the latter is just as valid and appropriate a definition.

Quote:I agree with your assessment of the argument but Ryan is seriously just trying to piss off Nintendo fans on a Nintendo forum with rediculous claims because he's bored. It pains him to say nice things about Nintendo and he's purposefully looking for things he can use to lower his own opinion of Nintendo further. It's the same reason parents beat up their kids, it makes him feel like a big man.

lazyfatbum Wrote:Ryan/ You must have been on your period or something because this argument started because someone said that Nintendo innovated with the d-pad and you said they didn't and now you say they did. Nintendo did invent the d-pad, like it or not.

Quote:Okay, so as a toy it was a success, but if you compare it to any video game system in history it was a complete failure. Except maybe if you compared it to the Virtual Boy. I'm sorry Ryan but that logic is absurd, it is a video game system and it is a part of the video game market and in that market it is a failure. I agree that it was still made for years, shit you can buy those plug and play systems now for 20 bucks that have Atari, Intellivision, etc. People would buy them for nostalgia or what have you, but in this industry the Intellivision was not a success as a home video game console.

Quote: 1.) it wasn't already done, because the Intellivision used an unmarked disk. Not a d-pad. The d-pad was better because it's easier to use, more comfortable, easier to pick up and play and, regardless of your opinion, was a revolution for the industry. Everyone and their dog adopted Nintendo's d-pad.

Quote:2.) Companies do not think that way, they do their best to create something original that sets them apart while still retaining functionality. Sega's d-pads always looked different, in fact they look like a cross between a disk and a d-pad, sony opted for d-pad that is a collection of four individual buttons, the worst design of the d-pad i've ever seen. Second only to the GC's ultra tiny pad which you cant really use as a full d-pad.. more like extra buttons (for my giant hands anyway). But the point is, as you said, they chose the d-pad design because it's better, not because they wanted to associate their system with Nintendo's. That logic is completely destroyed when looking at current or next gen consoles. Nintendo isn't king, and yet everyone is still using a d-pad.

Quote: Hahaha :D come on, using that logic makes every controller on the market a rip off of the arcade stick and the roller ball.

Quote:It's not just the tech inside the controller, it's how the player interacts with it, that's where leaps and innovation is made. The technology to give us that level of interaction is a reaction. It starts on a drawing board with ideas of how it should look for comfort and interactivity, once that's settled on it's sent to a different group to figure out how to build the actual controller using existing technology and sometimes inventing new technology. In this case, Nintendo went through R&D and decided that a directional pad would be best, and the entire world agreed.

Quote: You yourself said that the d-pad was an necessary evolution. If Nintendo made the NES with a disk instead, and Sega made the d-pad - We would be having a Sega Vs. Intellivision debate. That OMG CROSS design, is what makes a d-pad a d-pad, and it what makes it so innovative over the disk design. It was an evolution, and Nintendo founded it. In evolutionary terms, the disk on the intellivision is the is a mutant gene, the d-pad is the refined gene found in all DNA. *makes lab coat sounds and points at chalk boards*

Quote:A D-pad is the directional pad found on nearly all modern video game console gamepads and game controllers. Like early video game joysticks, D-pads are digital: they allow input of exactly 8 directions (the points of the compass), with no intermediate values. Although they provide less nuance than analog controls, they can easily be manipulated with very high accuracy using only a single thumb.

Quote:Again, with your logic, every car would be a rip off of the first car ever made. What you're saying is that the Model T is the same as a 57 Chevy and ignoring the fact that it's much improved vehicle.

Quote: I agree for the most part and I happen to like the c-buttons alot more than a second stick (PD :D) but games like Pikmin and Luigi's Mansion could not have been done without two sticks. I think Sony wanted to make their controller seem better saying "we have two instead of one!" while most developers use the second stick for changing camera and little else, most of the time the same functions could have been applied to 4 c-buttons (which is basically a d-pad) anyway.

Quote: Intellivision disk:

A round unmarked disk with no tactile impression of direction. Controller could be held 4 different ways depending on the game with no idea of what is "up" until you pressed the correct corresponding direction on the pad to cause the appropriate movement. Lack of any marks or tactile feedback to the user meant that you didn't know where down was until you character moved down or you had to look at the controller.

Quote: Bullshit, you knew exactly what you were doing and now you're getting your ass handed to you. :D

Quote: And what might that be? Using your thumbs? No, that was done before Intellivision. Having a phone pad? Nope, before Intellivision too... what could you mean? Oh! Creating another failed input device for video games, yes! oh, but it wasn't the first at that either. :D

Quote:No, because according to Nintendo the N64 sold more consoles in the same amount of time. To date, the NES wins... over every console in existence, but in a 5 year span, the N64 outsells the NES. This is because more people play video games now in America than in 1984.

Quote:Okay, if we remove the Intellivision from the video game industry and put in the toy industry, it's a success. put it in the video games market, and it's a total failure. Understood.

Quote:Nothing will ever change the fact that Nintendo owns the patent on the cross shaped 8 direction d-Pad. Which is factually an innovative design that has set itself as an industry standard making all other forms of digital input devices for movement in video games obsolete unless the game called specifically for a radical design, such as a light gun. Look up innovative in the dictionary, that's what Nintendo did. They were the first company to design a d-pad. The Intellivision is not a d-pad because it doesn't even have directions on it; it's a blank disk with 16 points of reference. The definition of directional pad is a pad with directions on it with 8 points of reference. Which Nintendo owns the patent on. Intellivision does not.

The d-pad is a not a modernization, it is a radically different design that, as you said, is 'different under neath'. It performs the same task, but it's easier for the player, easier for the developer, cheaper to make and just plain better.

Quote:The d-pad is a not a modernization, it is a radically different design that, as you said, is 'different under neath'. It performs the same task, but it's easier for the player, easier for the developer, cheaper to make and just plain better.

Quote:What controller had you use your thumbs? I'm so glad you walked in to this one. Every single controller ever made for home or arcade, some even used arrow keys on the number pad for controlling your character while the stick was used for aiming. All the way back to Asteroids and Pong, you used your thumbs and fingers to control the game through dials and push buttons. Using a thumb JUST for directions, was done on multiple games on multiple systems usually through the keypad before Intellivision, the first that did it was the first home console ever designed, the Channel F which had large thumb sticks that could also be rotated. The Arcadia 2001 also used thumb sticks, but i'm unsure of it's release on the market.

One of the other systems that let you control with your thumbs (on a keypad) was the Nintendo 6 in 1 which came out before Intellivision I might add. But the biggest contender for thumb-control was the Odyssey and Odyssey II which used tiny sticks that you controlled with your thumb, it came out years before the Intellivision. They are the grandfather's of the d-pad, not the Intellivision.

Again: The Intellivision control disk had no actual directions on it and 16 points of reference, not 8 as you would find on a d-pad from Nintendo, Sega, Sony, Microsoft, etc. The Intellivision control disk is not a d-pad, it is a failed input device. Nintendo created the D-Pad. Intellivision did not create the d-pad. They were close, but no where near the real deal.

Quote:Just so you know, the patent office tends to patent things that can't even work, all too often.

It turns out that they get so many quack devices they just end up more or less shoving them through the door rather than deal with all the research they would all require if they actually checked to see what can and can't actually work. They can draw an estcher (sp?) painting and get it patented at this point...

lazyfatbum Wrote:"The Playstation is better!"

Oh yeah, a system from a company that makes disposable walkmans, blenders, TV's, vibrating chairs, headphones and moist wipes releases a home console for 400 bucks that is basically a SNES with a SFX chip capable of a higher polygon count that, not unlike their other devices, fails to continue working after 6 months of use. All because people like YOU, played FF7 and thought "TEE HEE they put the word "shit" in a video game! that means they're better! *SMALL DICK*" But no matter what you think, or say, or do, and no matter how hard you try, Nintendo will always be the best because of the fact that they are the only company that actually cares about the video game industry because that's ALL they DO and long after Sony stops making video game systems i'll be playing on my Nintendo while I watch you wait your turn to play, jackass.

lazyfatbum Wrote:Ryan's doing exactly what OB1 did, ignore valid points, look for ways to stretch and bend the truth and push his own opinions as fact.

Quote: The facts are here and again, reagrdless of your opinion Ryan, everyone on Earth knows that Nintendo invented the successful d-pad and Intellivision invented the failed disk.

Quote:All you're doing is saying the Intellivision is better because you owned that system first. I owned a Commodore 64 first, then I had an Atari 2600 and an Intellivision, then I had NES. I was playing video games months after I learned to walk and even though I owned multiple systems before NES I understood that there is a clear winner when I first hooked up my NES.

Quote: Nothing will ever change the fact that Nintendo owns the patent on the cross shaped 8 direction d-Pad.

Quote:Which is factually an innovative design that has set itself as an industry standard making all other forms of digital input devices for movement in video games obsolete unless the game called specifically for a radical design, such as a light gun. Look up innovative in the dictionary, that's what Nintendo did. They were the first company to design a d-pad. The Intellivision is not a d-pad because it doesn't even have directions on it; it's a blank disk with 16 points of reference. The definition of directional pad is a pad with directions on it with 8 points of reference. Which Nintendo owns the patent on. Intellivision does not.

Quote:The d-pad is a not a modernization, it is a radically different design that, as you said, is 'different under neath'. It performs the same task, but it's easier for the player, easier for the developer, cheaper to make and just plain better.

Quote:What controller had you use your thumbs? I'm so glad you walked in to this one. Every single controller ever made for home or arcade, some even used arrow keys on the number pad for controlling your character while the stick was used for aiming. All the way back to Asteroids and Pong, you used your thumbs and fingers to control the game through dials and push buttons. Using a thumb JUST for directions, was done on multiple games on multiple systems usually through the keypad before Intellivision, the first that did it was the first home console ever designed, the Channel F which had large thumb sticks that could also be rotated. The Arcadia 2001 also used thumb sticks, but i'm unsure of it's release on the market.

One of the other systems that let you control with your thumbs (on a keypad) was the Nintendo 6 in 1 which came out before Intellivision I might add. But the biggest contender for thumb-control was the Odyssey and Odyssey II which used tiny sticks that you controlled with your thumb, it came out years before the Intellivision. They are the grandfather's of the d-pad, not the Intellivision.

Quote: Again: The Intellivision control disk had no actual directions on it and 16 points of reference, not 8 as you would find on a d-pad from Nintendo, Sega, Sony, Microsoft, etc.

Quote:The Intellivision control disk is not a d-pad, it is a failed input device. Nintendo created the D-Pad. Intellivision did not create the d-pad. They were close, but no where near the real deal.

Quote:Since you already made a claim that all controllers are spin-offs and modernizations of the original joysticks and rollerballs, then you have successfully made it a point to destroy both our arguments. I know you dont beleive that all controllers are remakes of joysticks and rollerballs, but I just wanted to point out how rediculous you're sounding.

Quote:You thought the Intellivision was the first console to use a controller with an input that you controlled with your thumb. But there are atleast 3 systems that did it before Intellivision, most note worthy being the Odyssey.

Quote: With it's 8 direction D-Pad.

That it has a patent for.

Quote:Oh yeah, a system from a company that makes disposable walkmans, blenders, TV's, vibrating chairs, headphones and moist wipes releases a home console for 400 bucks that is basically a SNES with a SFX chip capable of a higher polygon count that, not unlike their other devices, fails to continue working after 6 months of use. All because people like YOU, played FF7 and thought "TEE HEE they put the word "shit" in a video game! that means they're better! *SMALL DICK*" But no matter what you think, or say, or do, and no matter how hard you try, Nintendo will always be the best because of the fact that they are the only company that actually cares about the video game industry because that's ALL they DO and long after Sony stops making video game systems i'll be playing on my Nintendo while I watch you wait your turn to play, jackass.

:D

Quote:At E3, you said that the Revolution would include ports for GameCube controllers. However, we've now heard that Nintendo intends to deliver a controller cradle housing the new input device for certain games. Is this true and does it mean you've done away with those GameCube ports since we last saw the console?

Jim Merrick: We'll go both ways. The four ports for the GameCube controllers are still on the top, you can use your Wavebirds controllers and existing wired controllers - and that's great because if you've got GameCube games, you've probably got GameCube controllers too so there's no reason not to use them. Not only for GameCube games either - we have something called the Virtual Console which allows you to download N64 games, Super Famicom games - what am I going to do with those? NES games are obviously easy - you just flip the controller on its side and you're there. For other games, and even for today's games, we're not trying to say that the existing controller designs are not useful, there are many great games that play very well with existing controllers.

We will offer what we call the Classic-style controller which is based on the more traditional controller - or at least as traditional as you can get in an industry that's only twenty years old. Basically, it has a hole that you slot in the free-hand controller so that brings wireless communications, rumble pack and other features and you just slot it right in there. It's an easy and presumably - I don't have any pricing yet - inexpensive way to give you another controller option. So we're really excited about having this expansion port on the controller - you start realizing there's all kinds of things we can do. One of the reasons we didn't show it at TGS though was we haven't completed the design yet - it's not completely signed off.

There's been a lot discussions about what kind of features does it have to have to support N64 games and GameCube games and NES games, and what a third party might expect on a cross-platform controller because, let's face it, every hardware manufacturer wants third parties to write games exclusively for them and take one hundred percent advantage of what's unique on their platform - but, in reality, third parties have to write cross-platform - and there has to be some commonality between them, or at least they'd like it to make their job easier. That said, there are good examples, such as the Sims 2, which really uses the DS' unique features and it certainly is a cross-platform game.