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+--- Thread: REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! (/showthread.php?tid=3200)
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - N_A - 17th September 2005
LOL, the fact of adapting or be left behind is something everyone knows, and its not what I find the shame to be about. The shame in copying in the world of oligarchic business competition like the console world is that you're a "rip off" of another system and can't for the life of you think of something better or perhaps something equally as good in a different type of innovation. Actually, that could probably be said of PC gaming too. Adapting doesn't mean you just copy people, it can also mean you think something else thats better or equally as good.
So... since MS and Sony haven't really done anything to make any special progress in between their consoles that wasn't previously stimulated by a Nintendo acheivement, except for maybe online gaming (although that was already a PC acheivement), I can jeer at them for ripping off Nintendo at every step, and even if they did rip off Nintendo and are more popular, they're still one step behind in the innovation game, and Nintendo still makes more profit than them.
So basically, when the next console comes out and Nintendo has done yet another thing with their control system while Sony and Microsoft catch on and develop a copy of the revolution controller, they get to be known as Nintendo rip offs. And with any luck, Nintendo will push the envelope during this generation to take advantage of this radical uniqueness and kill the competition.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Great Rumbler - 17th September 2005
Quote:That is NOT a solution! That is called "buying an add-on"!
It's not an add-on if it comes with the console, which it likely will.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - lazyfatbum - 17th September 2005
From now on, every controller will have true 3-D control, there's no denying that.
Designers now have a choice: Use the true 3-D and increase sales, or be cheap and use 2-D (by putting the Rev controller in a shell).
The result will be very easy to see, companies that use the Rev controller will have higher sales. Once people play RE5 with the Rev controller they wont want 2-D control. True 3-D control is a true revolution.
The question for me is, since the Rev has GC ports which I could use for NES, SNES, N64 and GC, do I want to buy a shell to play traditional 2-D games for Revolution? If a new third party game like RE5 comes out and it can only be played with the 2-D shell, I dont think I would run out to grab one, Why make me buy a shell when you could take an extra few weeks in the game's development to add full 3-D functionality?
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - EdenMaster - 17th September 2005
I think it's a bit early to think that this new controller will be responsible for crushing the competition. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Nintendo on the top of the heap again, but they still have a negative, "kiddy" reputation that a new controller isn't going to remove. Most people also don't care about who invented what first in this industry. If Sony and MS both come up with similar controllers, casual gamers won't care. It's all the same.
I'm just saying that Nintendo has a huge hurdle to climb, but then again, so did Sony way back when.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Dark Jaguar - 17th September 2005
I really don't think Nintendo is seen as "kiddy" any more. I mean, I haven't heard anyone say that in a long long time.
Anyway, if that "shell" is in fact included with the system, as well as extra controllers you can buy, then my issues are taken care of. I'd still like all buttons to be accessible on the "remote" style mode without having to switch your hold on it, but that's all really. They really could just make that one shaped more like the analog stick adapter. Anyway, they said they will do a few more things, and it seems like ergonomics is really all they are planning right now. Also, I do now realize that the controller's shape does have to allow it to be "slid" into certain things. And oh yes, lazy, I'm pretty sure even with a "standard controller" shell on, the controller's motion sensing abilities will remain intact so you could use both 2D and 3D style modes at once if a game should need it.
N_A, you seem to have forgotten that other companies that copied Nintendo's stuff HAVE added their own things. Sony for example didn't just steal the control stick as an exact copy. They added a click button to the stick design and put two on there for the purpose of having 4 axis. Unfortunatly, no one was really using the second stick so then Sony made a game designed completely around the two sticks, Ape Escape, to show it off. Then, everyone started using two sticks. Nintendo didn't feel the need for the buttons under the sticks though.
Also, Sega, Sony and MS all felt the need to provide online gameplay BEFORE Nintendo felt like doing anything. In fact, the Gamecube is almost totally offline because Nintendo, during the Gamecube's life span, didn't really seem to care.
MS decided to add a hard drive in the hard drive right from the start. Sony copied them there. But, more than that, the idea of a massive storage space for storing data you simply couldn't store before was a very nice one. Nintendo came up with it back during the N64, but didn't really carry through with it. MS was the one to actually make it happen, and as any patent office will tell you, they don't hand out patents to people who are too lazy to actually do anything with their invention. Basically, if you think of an invention, you can't just patent it to keep other people from making it so you can sit back and smile about depriving the world of something. Now in this case Nintendo was hardly lazy, they released it in Japan and all, but it was hardly a success and they never even bothered to release it here.
Lastly, Sony did come up with an interesting interface in the form of the eye-toy. That little thingy seems to be doing pretty well in games designed for it.
So, yes, Sony and MS HAVE been innovating.
As for the PC world, they did pretty much all the stuff the consoles are doing, FIRST. They had the massive storage space, the mouse, the joystick, the keyboard, online gaming, all that jazz, before the consoles ever did. Now, I'm not sure if anyone made any eye-toy style games for the PC and a web cam though...
Also, I'm pretty sure that, though the PC world has tried stuff like this motion controller in the past, Nintendo will actually make it popular enough that this interface is going to actually become very popular on the PC too.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Great Rumbler - 17th September 2005
Quote:I really don't think Nintendo is seen as "kiddy" any more. I mean, I haven't heard anyone say that in a long long time.
You obviously haven't read the Revolution controller thread at Fark.
Quote:As for the PC world, they did pretty much all the stuff the consoles are doing, FIRST. They had the massive storage space, the mouse, the joystick, the keyboard, online gaming, all that jazz, before the consoles ever did.
Except for the D-pad. Nintendo did that before anyone.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Weltall - 17th September 2005
Great Rumbler Wrote:Except for the D-pad. Nintendo did that before anyone.
The Intellivision had it years before the NES came out.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Dark Jaguar - 17th September 2005
*looks at keyboard*
Well, there are arrow keys, but they are hardly a substitute for the d-pad. They do a pretty good job in their own way though.
Actually, no I haven't read anything at Fark... ever actually. So, there are still idiots like that eh? I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but that image seems to be fading.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - The Former DMiller - 17th September 2005
Ryan Wrote:The Intellivision had it years before the NES came out.
Not sure what you're talking about. If this is the Intellivision controller I remember I don't see a d-pad anywhere:
![[Image: mattel_intellivision.jpg]](http://www.ntrautanen.fi/computers/other/images/mattel_intellivision.jpg)
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Dark Jaguar - 17th September 2005
Yeah, d-pads are a nice ergonomic design for direction buttons. Did Nintendo come up with it first? I'm pretty sure that is a console first actually.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Great Rumbler - 17th September 2005
Quote: The Intellivision had it years before the NES came out.
Who said anything about the NES?
![[Image: game-n-watch.jpg]](http://weblogs.jupiterresearch.com/analysts/laszlo/archives/game-n-watch.jpg)
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - N_A - 17th September 2005
Yeah, well theres no award for plagarism and ripping off people and rehashing it. Nintendo still was the first to make it happen, and they'll hold that fame. No matter how much Sony or MS change it for their next consoles, they still ripped off Nintendo because their think tanks just aren't creative enough to figure it out and make it happen first. The core original concept was not theirs, and they are just offshoots. Its the people who make the breakthroughs who are the creative ones and deserve applaud. Unless they can come up with something completely different and awesome, then they can get some credit for true innovation. They have yet to do that. And don't forget, this is a competition business. Even if Nintendo doesn't say they're competing with the other companies directly, they are, and they're quite obviously out to take down the other companies and attempt to isolate the other companies with a radically different gaming system that can basically play all of their games, but not the other way around. And Nintendo fans will root for them and take Nintendo's side just like any sports fan roots for their favorite team.
Online game is no real innovation on the consoles. While Nintendo was aware of it, I think they just kind of decided to go to sleep during that time. My guess is the overall strategy was to save money for the Revolution, then go all out with everything to make a comeback in the long run rather than engage their resources in an ineffective piecemeal fashion. Besides, online gaming is an innovation is collectively that of the PC gaming community, not console companies. MS, Sony, Sega, and Nintendo can't take much credit for it, at the very least, MS might for bringing along the computer revolution on the software side for it to all happen. Nintendo, Sony, and Sega aren't getting any credit for innovating online gaming communities.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Weltall - 17th September 2005
That Game & Watch came out in 1982, three years after the Intellivision.
Derek, if you ever used an Intellivision, you'd know that the disc operates exactly like a D-Pad. The only thing Nintendo innovated in regards to the D-Pad was the cross shape. The NES D-Pad is more intuitive and easier to use because of its size and shape, which I will grant is definitely an improvement, but hardly an innovation.
What made the D-Pad unique was that you could use your thumbs instead of wielding a joystick, which makes some games rather difficult. The Intellivision was the first (to my knowledge) that removed the stick and instead implemented a control device used with the thumb, and did so in 1979, several years before any console Nintendo created.
I have no idea why this misconception is still so widespread.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Dark Jaguar - 17th September 2005
Well that settles it then!
Just to make it clear N_A, I'm not trying to say that Nintendo doesn't deserve the credit here. I'm also not saying copying is a sign of innovation (um...). I'm merely pointing out the reality that copying hardware is a needed step and shouldn't be looked down upon. This isn't an either/or moral thing here, it's merely reality.
And yeah, when it comes down to it the HD and the online stuff is PC original.
I will say this. If the idea of two sticks, both of which also function as a buttons, can only be considered an off-shoot of Nintendo's idea and not a single bit of that amounts to creativity in any sense in your mind, then by the same token, how can the analog stick of the N64 really be considered creative? Joystick for the thumb, that's all.
No matter though, I do consider that an innovation for comfort's sake, and I do consider two sticks an innovation for what they have proven useful for.
I won't go into some muddy emotional definition of "the difference between a mere evolution and true innovation". People can decide that for themselves. If you ask me, it's all evolution from previous things but to different degrees.
In the end, all I'm saying is there is no reason to make some moral fuss over them. It's as though you actually take their decisions like this personally. I believe it would be best if you simply took a much more pragmatic view of this whole thing.
Well, no matter, what I can say is this really seems like a great addition that will help gameplay. But, yeah I really do think that making that B button on the bottom pressure sensitive, as well as those buttons under the analog stick part, would only help.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Great Rumbler - 17th September 2005
The first Game and Watch came out just a few months after the Intellivision. Nintendo has, or had, the patent on that particularly style of cross pad seen on the Game and Watch and most consoles since copied that style rather than the flat circle pad [which worked similarly to the cross pad] of the Intellivision. So I suppose it would be more accurate to say that Nintendo invented the MODERN D-pad.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Weltall - 17th September 2005
Most older Game & Watch units didn't have the D-Pad. I think DK was the first. Intellivision was certainly the first console to feature the pad.
I also dispute that Nintendo created the 'modern' D-pad, because the only thing different about it from the INTV's disc was the shape. In actuality, the Intellivision's D-Pad is more advanced than any since, as it had 16 distinct directional inputs, as opposed to the 8 that has been on every one since (and a fair number of games utilized that). If anything, the only company to really change anything about the D-Pad since its conception almost 30 years ago is Sony, who added pressure-sensitive analog functions to the PS2's D-Pad.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - A Black Falcon - 17th September 2005
Pressure sensitive buttons/dpad? Did Sony really invent the idea? I quite definitely doubt it... and did it really make much of a difference anyway? Seems like it causes as many problems as good effects...
As for the D-Pad, the Gravis Gamepad (or was it the GRiP?) controller showed what it is... a joystick without the stick (that was a gamepad with a center hole thing in the dpad where you could screw in a mini joystick). So maybe Intellivision had it "first", but was that really so different from arcade games with standard eight-way or sixteen-way or whatever joysticks that in effect are just as set (on or off for each direction, not true 2-axis movement)? No, not really. It just gets rid of the stick. :)
Quote:I also dispute that Nintendo created the 'modern' D-pad, because the only thing different about it from the INTV's disc was the shape.
The shape was an important advance. So was getting rid of the numpad... what an awful thing to have on a game controller... (Atari never learned this lesson, obviously, when you look at the Jaguar controller...) And as I said, they're all based off arcade sticks anyway... each system was a new step. Of course the NES didn't come out of a void. But it was also quite noticably different from what had come before (controller-wise), and that mattered a lot... the dpad made more sense than the Intellivision disc. :) The NES controller just looks so much cooler than the Intellivision one that it's absolutely no comparison... things like that matter a lot more to most people than things like 'but functionally it's a lot like the Intellivision disc'. :)
Anyway, the Nintendo D-Pad was a big change from what came before, just like how discs or wheels or whatever are big changes from 2600-style "joysticks" that aren't really 2-axis, modern-meaning-of-the-word-joystick things. Intellivision is an atari stick... without the stick. Nintendo Dpad is like that... with a major redesign and directional-focused layout. Change. :)
Similarly, Genesis/Sidewinder/etc circular directional pads with raised parts or whatever to mark the four cardinal directions, as well as PSX-style four-button setups, aren't really true dpads either...
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Weltall - 17th September 2005
A Black Falcon Wrote:Pressure sensitive buttons/dpad? Did Sony really invent the idea? I quite definitely doubt it... and did it really make much of a difference anyway? Seems like it causes as many problems as good effects...
Can't think of anyone who did it sooner. And in some games, it works very well (MGS2, for example).
Quote:As for the D-Pad, the Gravis Gamepad (or was it the GRiP?) controller showed what it is... a joystick without the stick (that was a gamepad with a center hole thing in the dpad where you could screw in a mini joystick). So maybe Intellivision had it "first", but was that really so different from arcade games with standard eight-way or sixteen-way or whatever joysticks that in effect are just as set (on or off for each direction, not true 2-axis movement)? No, not really. It just gets rid of the stick. :)
I agree, and that's why I don't view the D-Pad as a huge advancement, regardless of who made it first. It was an improvement over the joystick, but it wasn't a groundbreaking innovation.
And the entire point of my post wasn't how great the advancement was, but that Nintendo did not innovate in the slightest by placing one on the NES controller.
Quote:The shape was an important advance. So was getting rid of the numpad... what an awful thing to have on a game controller... (Atari never learned this lesson, obviously, when you look at the Jaguar controller...) And as I said, they're all based off arcade sticks anyway... each system was a new step. Of course the NES didn't come out of a void. But it was also quite noticably different from what had come before (controller-wise), and that mattered a lot... the dpad made more sense than the Intellivision disc. :) The NES controller just looks so much cooler than the Intellivision one that it's absolutely no comparison... things like that matter a lot more to most people than things like 'but functionally it's a lot like the Intellivision disc'. :)
I grew up playing the Intellivision, and while I'd hardly call the keypad intuitive, it wasn't awful, and I mastered it by the age of two. Some of my favorite games would have been unplayable without it.
And just because a control looks 'cool' doesn't make it innovative, or even superior. As I stated, the D-pad of the Intellivision is more advanced than the NES's. There isn't one single aspect about the NES's D-Pad, besides it's look, that was any different in any way from what came before it.
Quote:Anyway, the Nintendo D-Pad was a big change from what came before, just like how discs or wheels or whatever are big changes from 2600-style "joysticks" that aren't really 2-axis, modern-meaning-of-the-word-joystick things. Intellivision is an atari stick... without the stick. Nintendo Dpad is like that... with a major redesign and directional-focused layout. Change. :)
How is it really change? It doesn't function any better. The only change is cosmetic.
Quote:Similarly, Genesis/Sidewinder/etc circular directional pads with raised parts or whatever to mark the four cardinal directions, as well as PSX-style four-button setups, aren't really true dpads either...
Okay, now I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. They're all the same exact concept with different physical aesthetics. They all function exactly the same way. The PSX's D-Pad isn't a four-button deal, either. It's just designed to look that way.
If I had to go by this post, you've never even touched half of the controllers you described.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - A Black Falcon - 18th September 2005
Quote:Can't think of anyone who did it sooner. And in some games, it works very well (MGS2, for example).
The common problem with analog buttons is that when games make you press them down all the way often, it gets tiring and irritating... this is certainly true with the GC's shoulder buttons, and I've heard that it's just as true on the PS2.
Quote:I grew up playing the Intellivision, and while I'd hardly call the keypad intuitive, it wasn't awful, and I mastered it by the age of two. Some of my favorite games would have been unplayable without it.
And just because a control looks 'cool' doesn't make it innovative, or even superior. As I stated, the D-pad of the Intellivision is more advanced than the NES's. There isn't one single aspect about the NES's D-Pad, besides it's look, that was any different in any way from what came before it.
You can't possibly call a numpad intuitive, easy to use, etc, etc, etc... there's a reason they went away, and it wasn't just the NES. They are clumsy and not well suited for a gamepad, where you want the players to be able to easily access the buttons at any time... that's always been Nintendo's philosophy, and it's the right one for consoles.
...
And as a Nintendo person I guess I have to say it, "are more buttons better?" :D (sometimes yes, sometimes no)
Quote: How is it really change? It doesn't function any better. The only change is cosmetic.
My point was that cosmetic changes are changes too... things that look differently but act the same are not always called the same thing. Maybe 'crosspad' would have been better there, but whatever... it's a decent point. The dpad is the crosspad... the variations you see on everything else are just imitations. :)
Quote:The PSX's D-Pad isn't a four-button deal, either. It's just designed to look that way.
Yes it is four buttons... what's the difference between a dpad and four buttons, after all? Yeah, the shape of the piece of plastic on top of them. And since it is seperated, the psx has four buttons as its dpad, with a hole in the middle... not the greatest design (I prefer circle ones, if you are trying to avoid crosspads because of Nintendo lawyers) either, by the way. :)
Quote:And the entire point of my post wasn't how great the advancement was, but that Nintendo did not innovate in the slightest by placing one on the NES controller.
Yes, but it sounded like you were implying that Intellivision did to a much greater degree...
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Dark Jaguar - 18th September 2005
Okay about the PS d-pad. I know it looks like the 4 buttons are seperated like any other button, but they are actually connected UNDER that middle part. The whole thing is just like a d-pad only the middle part that connects them actually dives UNDER the controller's face plate. It's weird, and I don't see the point, but in the end it means you can't press up and down or left and right at the same time, just like any other d-pad. Yeah it's four buttons, I just think Weltall was trying to say they aren't 4 seperate unconnected buttons as they appear to be at first glance.
And really, I agree with Weltall a lot here. Issues of cosmetics and ergonomics (mainly the latter, most of the different d-pad shapes I've seen are made as such for reasons of comfort) don't really make something drastically different.
As for pressure sensitive buttons, I've never had that issue. I mean, in most of the games I've played, on Gamecube for example, I've never actually had to fully depress the analog triggers for long periods of time. If the analog feature won't add anything, they tend to design the triggers so only a little depression is needed to do the function of the trigger. And, that's how I hold it. I've never become tired doing it that way. As for the PS2, I really don't see many games making use of the pressure sensitivity, but in general I've found that, in MGS games for example, it really isn't too big a deal to need to hold the button in for a while as I take my aim. You really don't need to press the button THAT hard.
Also, he specifically said the number pad was NOT intuitive. How did you get the opposite of that from that?
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - A Black Falcon - 18th September 2005
Quote:Okay about the PS d-pad. I know it looks like the 4 buttons are seperated like any other button, but they are actually connected UNDER that middle part. The whole thing is just like a d-pad only the middle part that connects them actually dives UNDER the controller's face plate. It's weird, and I don't see the point, but in the end it means you can't press up and down or left and right at the same time, just like any other d-pad. Yeah it's four buttons, I just think Weltall was trying to say they aren't 4 seperate unconnected buttons as they appear to be at first glance.
Okay, but that doesn't make it any better an idea...
Quote:And really, I agree with Weltall a lot here. Issues of cosmetics and ergonomics (mainly the latter, most of the different d-pad shapes I've seen are made as such for reasons of comfort) don't really make something drastically different.
I know, they're all just different ways of doing the same thing...
Quote:As for pressure sensitive buttons, I've never had that issue. I mean, in most of the games I've played, on Gamecube for example, I've never actually had to fully depress the analog triggers for long periods of time. If the analog feature won't add anything, they tend to design the triggers so only a little depression is needed to do the function of the trigger. And, that's how I hold it. I've never become tired doing it that way. As for the PS2, I really don't see many games making use of the pressure sensitivity, but in general I've found that, in MGS games for example, it really isn't too big a deal to need to hold the button in for a while as I take my aim. You really don't need to press the button THAT hard.
It would depend on the game, I expect... like on GC, the analog triggers work okay for Rogue Squadron, but for, say, Capcom vs SNK 2, having to press those things to do two of the moves is pretty annoying... that's why I moved the heavy attacks to the face buttons and light, which I never use anyway, to the shoulders.
Quote:Also, he specifically said the number pad was NOT intuitive. How did you get the opposite of that from that?
Because of what he said next...
Quote:I grew up playing the Intellivision, and while I'd hardly call the keypad intuitive, it wasn't awful, and I mastered it by the age of two. Some of my favorite games would have been unplayable without it.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Weltall - 18th September 2005
A Black Falcon Wrote:Okay, but that doesn't make it any better an idea...
Which was never in question.
Quote:It would depend on the game, I expect... like on GC, the analog triggers work okay for Rogue Squadron, but for, say, Capcom vs SNK 2, having to press those things to do two of the moves is pretty annoying... that's why I moved the heavy attacks to the face buttons and light, which I never use anyway, to the shoulders.
The PS2's analog buttons don't work the same way the GC's triggers do, because every button on the control (save for Start/Select) is analog. Using the analog function requires some subtle pressure, but I don't mind, because it doesn't get in the way for games that have no use for the analog.
Quote:Because of what he said next...
I said it wasn't intuitive. Then I said it worked well enough for the games that needed it. My favorite INTV game, Treasure of Tarmin, would be an absolute nightmare to play without the extra buttons, because each one did something useful. Some games used the keypad to get away with sloppy programming (Night Stalker and AD&D, for instance. You had to use 2, 4, 6 and 8 to fire in specific directions instead of just being able to fire forward of your position), and many games didn't use them at all, except for options selection.
I mean, if a two year old can grasp it, I don't see why anybody can't.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - A Black Falcon - 18th September 2005
Quote:I mean, if a two year old can grasp it, I don't see why anybody can't.
My point was that it's not a convenient, comfortable button layout... I know the NES has issues (sharp corners on the controller), but at least the button layout is easy to use. Yes, it provides more buttons, which lets you have more options in your game. Which is sometimes good, and sometimes not. But... GC has eight buttons, PS2/Xbox 12. Nothing significant is lost, and an in some ways better layout is gained.
Oh, and one reason that keyboards (pc keyboards) aren't as good for some genres is because of the way the buttons are laid out... a setup designed for easy access to all the buttons is better for a videogame controller.
Oh yeah, and overlays are good in theory, but wouldn't changing them all the time get old quickly? Not to mention how easy it is to lose things like that...
Quote: Which was never in question.
Good. :)
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - N_A - 18th September 2005
Theres nothing morally wrong about copying and rehashing a creative idea. I'm just saying those other companies suck at creativity if all they can do is wait for Nintendo to come up with something quite consistently. In essence, the Xbox 360 controller is essentially a wireless Xbox controller which is a highly ergonomic controller, but reminiscent of PC controllers that existed ahead of it. And the PS3 controller is a PS2 controller, which is a dual shock PSX controller, which was somewhat of a N64/SNES hybrid rip. I fail to see their creativity. The Gamecube controller wasn't anything special either, but at least it was based off of Nintendo's own property.
I wouldn't be too worried about the Revolution's remote's face layout at this point. It still has to undergo some change, and I'm sure that developers will ask for more buttons, and Nintendo will eventually see that they will reposition and add buttons to make it better.
Additionally, the conventional controller cradle that Nintendo has spoken will definitely have alot of face buttons to deal with old Nintendo games, and multiconsole games.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Weltall - 18th September 2005
A Black Falcon Wrote:Oh yeah, and overlays are good in theory, but wouldn't changing them all the time get old quickly? Not to mention how easy it is to lose things like that...
Yeah, I lost most of mine in a hurry. But once I was comfortable with the controls for a game, I didn't need them anyway.
Plus, as I said, many games were pretty simplistic and didn't use the keypad at all.
Also worth noting is that the INTV could technically be said to have had the first shoulder buttons... there were two on each side of the controller.
Really, the only things I don't like about the INTV controller is that the D-Pad is too loose, and that the controllers are hard-wired with short, coiling cord. That's pretty irritating.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Dark Jaguar - 18th September 2005
Yeah N_A, you're right, it's nothing to worry about just yet.
Anyway, the eyetoy was an innovation though. The main thing about that is it can take the place of dancepads, instruments addons, and also have all it's own capabilities, wrapped into a single solution. The thing is, that eyetoy didn't exactly take off. I suppose if they included one with the PS3, that would be something.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Weltall - 18th September 2005
From my limited perspective, the Eyetoy is more popular than most addon peripherals are.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Dark Jaguar - 18th September 2005
Yeah, that's what I've heard too.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - A Black Falcon - 18th September 2005
Quote:Yeah, I lost most of mine in a hurry. But once I was comfortable with the controls for a game, I didn't need them anyway.
Plus, as I said, many games were pretty simplistic and didn't use the keypad at all.
That does not surprise me given the level of game complexity graphics of that period allowed...
Quote:Also worth noting is that the INTV could technically be said to have had the first shoulder buttons... there were two on each side of the controller.
Those aren't really shoulder buttons, they're on the sides... :)
But as with all these things, "first" seems to be how you define the term... like electronic games. Does the first tic-tac-toe game on a computer count, or do you mean the first tennis-game (Higginbotham's? Not sure if it was actually first...)...
Quote:Really, the only things I don't like about the INTV controller is that the D-Pad is too loose, and that the controllers are hard-wired with short, coiling cord. That's pretty irritating.
http://www.thedoteaters.com/play3sta3.htm
Intellivision II had detachable controllers. :)
Quote:From my limited perspective, the Eyetoy is more popular than most addon peripherals are.
The N64 expansion pack did quite well... everyone who got DK64 got one, after all. But yes, most expansions are either very limited in their market or support (like dance mats or bongos) or fail (like the 64DD), as we well know. I doubt that eyetoy has sold as well as the expansion pack... but since it is original and different, and has Sony's name on it, it's not surprising that it didn't totally bomb. Though I'd expect that the later titles (like the recently released Play 2) won't do nearly as well as the first one...
Quote:I fail to see their creativity.
There is nothing creative about the PSX controller's design. That's why Ryan had to go to 'analog buttons' to find something worth mentioning... :)
Quote:Additionally, the conventional controller cradle that Nintendo has spoken will definitely have alot of face buttons to deal with old Nintendo games, and multiconsole games.
Yes, Nintendo execs have said that the cradle is the best way to play N64 games (and thus presumably SNES games too). It'll be just fine for anything third parties want to port over.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Weltall - 18th September 2005
A Black Falcon Wrote:That does not surprise me given the level of game complexity graphics of that period allowed...Yeah. Only a few games really utilized it well. Treasure of Tarmin, which I mentioned earlier, did. It was a very complex game for its time, and you used the keypad to open doors, wield weapons, climb ladders, and shuffle your large inventory (I think a full four buttons went just to that), saving a lot of clumsy menu navigating.
Plus, a huge 255 level dungeon generated completely at random every game doesn't hurt either. I still love this game. There isn't a single note of music in it through :D
Quote: Those aren't really shoulder buttons, they're on the sides... :)Well, that's only because the controller is designed vertically. They're still shoulder buttons. There's no room on the top for any, and if there were, they'd be too hard to reach.
Quote: But as with all these things, "first" seems to be how you define the term... like electronic games. Does the first tic-tac-toe game on a computer count, or do you mean the first tennis-game (Higginbotham's? Not sure if it was actually first...)...Dunno?
Quote:http://www.thedoteaters.com/play3sta3.htmI know. I never owned a II though, or a III. I had seven machines in total, but all were either first-gen or the SYSTEM III, which was basically identical to the INTV I.
Intellivision II had detachable controllers. :)
Quote: The N64 expansion pack did quite well... everyone who got DK64 got one, after all. But yes, most expansions are either very limited in their market or support (like dance mats or bongos) or fail (like the 64DD), as we well know. I doubt that eyetoy has sold as well as the expansion pack... but since it is original and different, and has Sony's name on it, it's not surprising that it didn't totally bomb. Though I'd expect that the later titles (like the recently released Play 2) won't do nearly as well as the first one...I don't know... Play 2 includes the hardware. I think so far every ET game has been packaged with hardware, though some have also been standalone.
Quote: There is nothing creative about the PSX controller's design. That's why Ryan had to go to 'analog buttons' to find something worth mentioning... :)No, there isn't anything innovative about it. Every new feature is an improvement on previous ideas.
Wonder where they got the idea of four shoulder buttons from? :D
Yes, Nintendo execs have said that the cradle is the best way to play N64 games (and thus presumably SNES games too). It'll be just fine for anything third parties want to port over.[/QUOTE]
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - A Black Falcon - 18th September 2005
Quote:Yeah. Only a few games really utilized it well. Treasure of Tarmin, which I mentioned earlier, did. It was a very complex game for its time, and you used the keypad to open doors, wield weapons, climb ladders, and shuffle your large inventory (I think a full four buttons went just to that), saving a lot of clumsy menu navigating.
Plus, a huge 255 level dungeon generated completely at random every game doesn't hurt either. I still love this game. There isn't a single note of music in it through
Yes, it is true that very simple controllers lead to increased menu complexity... but 'we need more buttons so let's just lay out a keyboard of them on the gamepad' is not the right way to do that while making a good controller. (of course, as I said before, "let's have square corners" was no good either... NES 2 controllers may not look quite as cool as original NES ones (and the same goes to the system), but in both cases they are far more functional...
Quote:Well, that's only because the controller is designed vertically. They're still shoulder buttons. There's no room on the top for any, and if there were, they'd be too hard to reach.
They're side triggers. :) (that is, it seems like they'd be an attempt to bring joysticks to gamepads and add triggers, but without a stick to stick the trigger on like joysticks have, they put it on the side... though of course I don't know if the Intellivision was actually first to do that or if someone else did first.)
Quote:I know. I never owned a II though, or a III. I had seven machines in total, but all were either first-gen or the SYSTEM III, which was basically identical to the INTV I.
I know I'd heard those things were fragile, but wow... SEVEN? What do they do, break constantly?
Quote:I don't know... Play 2 includes the hardware. I think so far every ET game has been packaged with hardware, though some have also been standalone.
But if you already have one, wouldn't they have a package that doesn't have the eyetoy?
Quote:No, there isn't anything innovative about it. Every new feature is an improvement on previous ideas.
Wonder where they got the idea of four shoulder buttons from?
From wanting two more buttons while not making it six face buttons (a bad decision the whole industry still thinks was good, sadly). I wouldn't call that innovative by any stretch of the imagination...
Oh, and you forgot to reply to that last part... and didn't make the quote work correctly either. :)
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Weltall - 18th September 2005
A Black Falcon Wrote:They're side triggers. :) (that is, it seems like they'd be an attempt to bring joysticks to gamepads and add triggers, but without a stick to stick the trigger on like joysticks have, they put it on the side... though of course I don't know if the Intellivision was actually first to do that or if someone else did first.)
They have the same function... possibly even more useful than shoulder buttons tend to be on modern consoles.
Quote: I know I'd heard those things were fragile, but wow... SEVEN? What do they do, break constantly?Well, I had two break when I was younger, I got a third in 1986 (which still works), and the rest I inherited from family members who no longer wanted theirs. EVERYONE in my family had one. Only my 86 System III and my cousin's Master Console still function. Every one of my carts still work, amazingly, though the controllers on my System III are in poor shape.
Quote:
But if you already have one, wouldn't they have a package that doesn't have the eyetoy?
They do.
Quote: From wanting two more buttons while not making it six face buttons (a bad decision the whole industry still thinks was good, sadly). I wouldn't call that innovative by any stretch of the imagination...
No, not really.
Quote:Oh, and you forgot to reply to that last part... and didn't make the quote work correctly either. :)
As far as I can tell, it wasn't directed towards me.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Dark Jaguar - 19th September 2005
<img src="http://www.vgcats.com/comics/images/050919.gif">
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - A Black Falcon - 19th September 2005
Quote:They have the same function... possibly even more useful than shoulder buttons tend to be on modern consoles.
... you really love that controller, don't you...
I somehow doubt it. Though my opinion that triggers are better than shoulder buttons also factors in in saying 'no button that's just on the side is going to be as good as a trigger'...
Quote:Well, I had two break when I was younger, I got a third in 1986 (which still works), and the rest I inherited from family members who no longer wanted theirs. EVERYONE in my family had one. Only my 86 System III and my cousin's Master Console still function. Every one of my carts still work, amazingly, though the controllers on my System III are in poor shape.
... doesn't a family only need one of each kind of console?
Quote:No, not really.
It kind of looked like you were implying that it was, by the way you said it...
Quote: As far as I can tell, it wasn't directed towards me.
Yeah, but you partially quoted it, without the first tag, so I wasn't sure if you'd just forgotten to finish the post...
VGCats: That's not nice of them now is it...
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Great Rumbler - 20th September 2005
Quote:... doesn't a family only need one of each kind of console?
Not likely.
Quote:VGCats: That's not nice of them now is it...
A half-way decent Xbox360 is $400, but that isn't money-grubbing?
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - A Black Falcon - 20th September 2005
Yeah, pretty blatant bias there. :(
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Great Rumbler - 20th September 2005
Scott Ramsoomair is usually pro-Nintendo, though sometimes he goes off on a rant against them.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Weltall - 20th September 2005
A Black Falcon Wrote:... you really love that controller, don't you...
It was very far ahead of its time.
Besides, I just love the machine. So many good games.
Quote: I somehow doubt it. Though my opinion that triggers are better than shoulder buttons also factors in in saying 'no button that's just on the side is going to be as good as a trigger'...
I think I'm going to answer these types of responses with the old "Don't knock it until you try it" phrase, because you're only guessing from pictures you see.
Quote: ... doesn't a family only need one of each kind of console?We traded games. I now have them all.
Quote: It kind of looked like you were implying that it was, by the way you said it...Dunno. I don't even remember the context anymore.
Yeah, but you partially quoted it, without the first tag, so I wasn't sure if you'd just forgotten to finish the po
[/QUOTE]
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - A Black Falcon - 20th September 2005
Quote:Scott Ramsoomair is usually pro-Nintendo, though sometimes he goes off on a rant against them.
You think? I notice more of the rants against them than pro-Nintendo stuff, I'd say...
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Dark Jaguar - 20th September 2005
Um, that comic makes fun of ALL the systems.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - A Black Falcon - 20th September 2005
One panel for X-Box...one for PS3... and three for GC. And I'd say that the GC ones are worse insults than either the X-Box or PS3 ones.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Dark Jaguar - 20th September 2005
Well considering that the Revolution's major feature was just announced, it's to be expected. Plus, seems funny enough to me. I mean, I'm really surprised lazy didn't make the same jokes.
That first panel seems to leave out the ACTUAL innovation of the controller... But, seems more like it's making fun of the CD-i...
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Dark Jaguar - 21st September 2005
<img src="http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2005/20050921l.jpg">
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - lazyfatbum - 21st September 2005
It's Drilling Instrument Life-Dream Orderer!
Multi-Speed! Fits in most purses! NO ONE WILL KNOW
And ryan why do you have such a hard on for a POS system? Yes, it had a disk-shaped input system that is used for inputting directions but it's nothing more than a flat roller-ball with a telephone pad above it - This is not a 'leap' or even a slight push towards formulating industry standard - it's just an Atari controller. They never made a 'game pad', most of the games could only be played 2-player and almost every single game on the system was outdated a week after it shipped. The system was krap, it added nothing to the video game market unless you want to count its downfall during the late 70's and early 80's.
Regardless of what you think is innovation, Nintendo created the "Directional Pad" and brought everything down to two action buttons and two menu buttons. It is the basis of all home console controllers. The only company that tried to re-introduce the 'number pad' was the Jaguar which I think outsold the Russian toy 'Pet Dog Shit' for the first week. The 2 face buttons and the 8 direction d-pad is an innovation, it brought us closer to video games, made it more comfortable and easier to communicate. They didn't even paint ARROWS on the disk! It's a bad controller, period.
I'm willing to bet there was some Japanese company that used an 8 direction d-pad on something before Nintendo did, but no one had the idea to make the whole package and create, for its time, the easiest to use most comfortable controller on the planet that changed the video game industry forever. A disk and a phone-pad to play a trillion different versions of Pacman or frogger did not.
Hell, you find Nintendo's 'd-pad' on all kinds of things now, it's on my VCR remote, I saw it on a coffee maker, I used to have a MP3 player that had a d-pad. Why didn't they use the disk? because it's more complicated, more confusing and a bad design.
And then you say Sony innovated the d-pad...? Have you tried to move diagonally with the PSX d-pad?? You say they're analog, but out of the dozens upon dozens of PSX and PS2 games i've played no one used it... probably because they were too busy stealing Nintendo's analog control stick idea. I know you dont hold Nintendo in high regards and you think Sony (and apparently Intellivision) is better, but holy shit atleast give credit where it's due instead of trying to find alternatives to praising Nintendo. I got 3 words for you:
Mario
Zelda
Metroid
Those names mean over 30 games across 7 platforms and 3 decades and every single one of them is considered a classic and is used as benchmarks by developers, you find me one game or company that can even begin to compare (Square might) and then we'll have a serious debate over innovation in the video game market about interaction through controllers.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - A Black Falcon - 21st September 2005
Quote:That first panel seems to leave out the ACTUAL innovation of the controller... But, seems more like it's making fun of the CD-i...
I thought it was making fun of Revolution for being like the abysmal failure of the CD-i in that panel...
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Weltall - 21st September 2005
lazyfatbum Wrote:And ryan why do you have such a hard on for a POS system? Yes, it had a disk-shaped input system that is used for inputting directions but it's nothing more than a flat roller-ball with a telephone pad above it - This is not a 'leap' or even a slight push towards formulating industry standard - it's just an Atari controller.
What the hell do you think the D-Pad is? It's a joystick input without a stick.
Quote:They never made a 'game pad', most of the games could only be played 2-player and almost every single game on the system was outdated a week after it shipped. The system was krap, it added nothing to the video game market unless you want to count its downfall during the late 70's and early 80's.
Only the sports games were forced 2-player. There are many games that can be either/or.
I'm sorry, but I owned and enjoyed it for the last quarter-century, and not to put too fine a point on it, but you're completely full of shit. It was the best system of the pre-NES era. The Atari 2600 was a piece of shit. Intellivision was anything but.
Quote:Regardless of what you think is innovation, Nintendo created the "Directional Pad"
They obviously did not. Just because you refuse to admit what is true doesn't make it false.
Quote:and brought everything down to two action buttons and two menu buttons. It is the basis of all home console controllers. The only company that tried to re-introduce the 'number pad' was the Jaguar which I think outsold the Russian toy 'Pet Dog Shit' for the first week.
The difference is that the INTV had some really awesome games, and the Jaguar had like -12 awesome games.
Quote:The 2 face buttons and the 8 direction d-pad is an innovation, it brought us closer to video games, made it more comfortable and easier to communicate. They didn't even paint ARROWS on the disk! It's a bad controller, period.
That is just sanctimonious crap. There is nothing at all innovative about the NES controller. It's a vast improvement over anything before it, but there's not a damn thing on it that wasn't on some other controller first. Innovation is the proffering and proliferation of new ideas. What you are describing is refinement, not innovation.
And why on earth does it need arrows? For retards that can't tell which way is up? :/
Quote:I'm willing to bet there was some Japanese company that used an 8 direction d-pad on something before Nintendo did, but no one had the idea to make the whole package and create, for its time, the easiest to use most comfortable controller on the planet that changed the video game industry forever. A disk and a phone-pad to play a trillion different versions of Pacman or frogger did not.
I will not deny that Nintendo made a far larger and more profound impact on the history of videogames, but as I stated, innovation is the advance of new ideas. By that same standard you can easily say that the Playstation is the most innovative console ever because it changed the industry to unimaginable levels. It's not true, and neither is what you say here.
Quote:Hell, you find Nintendo's 'd-pad' on all kinds of things now, it's on my VCR remote, I saw it on a coffee maker, I used to have a MP3 player that had a d-pad. Why didn't they use the disk? because it's more complicated, more confusing and a bad design.
Again, a non-sequitor. Intellivision had the first D-Pad. Not the best, even if it was more advanced in its additional capacity to recognize direction. The disc doesn't work that well. But it's still a pad that you use to move things in directions.
Quote:And then you say Sony innovated the d-pad...? Have you tried to move diagonally with the PSX d-pad?? You say they're analog, but out of the dozens upon dozens of PSX and PS2 games i've played no one used it... probably because they were too busy stealing Nintendo's analog control stick idea.
I threw it out there as a joke, more or less.
Quote:I know you dont hold Nintendo in high regards
Mostly because they place a higher priority on profit than they do on their customers.
Quote:and you think Sony (and apparently Intellivision) is better
No and no.
Quote:but holy shit atleast give credit where it's due instead of trying to find alternatives to praising Nintendo. I got 3 words for you:
Mario
Zelda
Metroid
Those names mean over 30 games across 7 platforms and 3 decades and every single one of them is considered a classic and is used as benchmarks by developers, you find me one game or company that can even begin to compare (Square might) and then we'll have a serious debate over innovation in the video game market about interaction through controllers.
Why don't you give credit where credit is due and admit that Nintendo didn't create every good idea in the history of videogames? :)
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - A Black Falcon - 21st September 2005
It's a disc, not a dpad. As I said, form matters as well as function, and they are not the same. Nintendo invented the D-Pad. Intellivision invented the disc. And as I said before, the disc isn't much more innnovative than the dpad was, given how it's just a joystick without the stick...
Quote:And why on earth does it need arrows? For retards that can't tell which way is up? :/
For the same reason that the N64 and NGC analog sticks are so much better than the PSX one, having some idea of direction (such as the eight-cornered joystick edge versus Sony's circle) is good...
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Dark Jaguar - 21st September 2005
Wow... anyway actually that machine is a device for getting juice out of fruit. It basically uses that spiggot or whatever near the bottom to do the job.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - Smoke - 21st September 2005
I can't believe in 2005 we're debating Nintendo VS Intellivison.
Oh BTW the Jaguar had a few good games. I can't stress the word few enough. I know, I own a Jaguar.
REVOLUTION CONTROLLER HAS BEEN REVEALED!!!!! - A Black Falcon - 21st September 2005
Tempest 2000 and ... uh ... the VLM on the Jaguar CD?
http://www.llamasoft.co.uk/vlm.php
Quote:Sadly the Jaguar CD-ROM unit never sold that well, coming as it did towards the end of the Jaguar's life. I had thought that by getting the VLM into the very system firmware of a device, I would ensure that my lightsynth would reach a massive audience. Unfortunately this didn't turn out to be the case, and the CD-ROM unit, and thus VLM-1, is something of a rarity.
Understatement alert... :) Jaguar CD died after having only 10 games released for it. Ouch.
Quote:I can't believe in 2005 we're debating Nintendo VS Intellivison.
What, can you think of a better use of your time? ... yeah, didn't think so. :) Ryan's just lucky we don't seem to have any Atari fans here, after what he said about the 2600... :D