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+--- Thread: Are we jaded? (/showthread.php?tid=2865)
Are we jaded? - Dark Jaguar - 14th May 2005
In this thread I bring to the debate table this question. Are we jaded to the point where enhanced graphical power just doesn't impress us any more?
To this I can only say something of myself. Personally, all these screens of these new games on new hardware? Well, I'm just not impressed. It's pretty much what I expected, and in many cases less. The jump to characters looking round and having mouths that can move was the big one :D, now it's just... well eye candy that just doesn't "do it" for me. I'm having a hard time getting excited about all this. And actually, this goes to the new video cards on PC as well. Yeah, it's nice looking... but... um... I guess what I'm saying is
don't impress me much any more.
Are we jaded? - Great Rumbler - 14th May 2005
The screenshots of PD0 don't do much for me and the ones from DOA4 aren't that much better than DOA Ultimate, but the shots from God of War and Unreal Tournament 2007 are amazing.
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 14th May 2005
CG still has a very long way to go. Until photo-realism is achieved there will always be room for progress. Not even Unreal 3 is as good as it can get.
Even this is far from being perfect:
![[Image: 148983_1110764412_medium.jpg]](http://www.cgnetworks.com/gallerycrits/148983/148983_1110764412_medium.jpg)
This is almost there...
![[Image: 120283_1099588535_medium.jpg]](http://www.cgnetworks.com/gallerycrits/120283/120283_1099588535_medium.jpg)
Are we jaded? - Great Rumbler - 14th May 2005
That's CG? Wow. I might not have noticed if you hadn't pointed it out. Well, the woman, on close inspection, is clearly CG, but the picture of the guy looks very life-like. About the only thing that really tips it off is the hair, for some reason it just looks unnatural.
Are we jaded? - Dark Jaguar - 14th May 2005
Woah seriously? That top one is CG? The girl is pretty obvious but that... are you sure? At any rate, in motion is probably where it becomes obvious.
Are we jaded? - Smoke - 14th May 2005
The top one definitly looks like a real object in the world. It doesn't look alive, more like a wax model but it looks real. The girl actually looks more real to me. If I wasn't told she was CG I think I'd just assume it was real.
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 14th May 2005
I'm pretty sure. ;)
Some more
![[Image: 6369_1112353202.jpg]](http://www.cgnetworks.com/gallerycrits/6369/6369_1112353202.jpg)
![[Image: 15347_1099925317_medium.jpg]](http://www.cgnetworks.com/gallerycrits/15347/15347_1099925317_medium.jpg)
This one is unbelievable:
![[Image: 120283_1099569043.jpg]](http://www.cgnetworks.com/gallerycrits/120283/120283_1099569043.jpg)
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 14th May 2005
Quote:The top one definitly looks like a real object in the world. It doesn't look alive, more like a wax model but it looks real.
Oh it's real alright.
![[Image: low2cv.jpg]](http://img232.exs.cx/img232/4404/low2cv.jpg)
![[Image: epidermis2fc.jpg]](http://img80.exs.cx/img80/3473/epidermis2fc.jpg)
Are we jaded? - Great Rumbler - 14th May 2005
CG has come quite a way since the Final Fantasy movie.
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 14th May 2005
Yes indeed.
Are we jaded? - Smoke - 14th May 2005
I wasn't saying I thought it was real, just that it looks like it.
Most of the pictures you posted look real but they have this dead look to them. The next step seems to be making these people look alive.
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 14th May 2005
Yes indeed. "The uncanny valley", as some have put it. The point where CG almost looks real but not quite, so you get a strange feeling from these models.
Are we jaded? - Great Rumbler - 14th May 2005
OB1, that website you posted is amazing. I've been going through it for that past 15 minutes. :D
Are we jaded? - Dark Jaguar - 14th May 2005
I don't get any "strange feeling" at all from them, they just look real, well, the top one anyway.
The ones with the ultra smooth skin, like they came from the cover of a fassion magazine? Those look fake. But, that's mainly because they seem to be GOING for a look that's already just real people's pictures that are HEAVILY photoshopped as it is.
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 14th May 2005
You don't think this one looks a bit odd?
Are we jaded? - A Black Falcon - 14th May 2005
Quote:Most of the pictures you posted look real but they have this dead look to them. The next step seems to be making these people look alive.
Yeah, there's something about making them look realistic that gives them that look... I've definitely noticed it. But how do you go about solving that problem, when it seems to be something about the human brain and not just something more polygons can fix...
Are we jaded? - Dark Jaguar - 15th May 2005
Well it looks unrealistic, namely noting the parts where the hair comes out of the face, but it doesn't give me any strange feeling.
But, let them continue working on it.
For all we know, it was just the preexisting knowledge that it is CG that let us "realize" it. Don't even bother saying ANYTHING at all that says it's just plain obvious. Scientific testing is the only way to show that WASN'T the cue.
So, A TEST! I DEMAND A TEST!
...
Um, really though. We need someone to gather together a selection of images of real people and a selection of images of the latest and greatest CG (it MUST be stuff we have never seen before). This person will label each picture with a number (in random order, no patterns at all) and make a chart stating which numbers are for real pictures and which are for fake ones. Then, a second person who doesn't know which is which, the first person is the list keeper, will be the one to present the images to us in some thread. The reason the second person is there is why double blinding is called "DOUBLE", it prevents us from somehow gathering which is which by noting exactly how the person posted, or how they respond to our guesses. Anyway, we all make our guesses on which ones are real and which ones are false. The bunch of it all is counted up for each individual picture. Then, the first person counts them all up and gives us a final chart showing what was real and what wasn't. If it's photo realistic, we'll do no better than random chance (in this case, the odds are 50 50 if photoreal). If it's not photorealistic, we will do significantly better than chance that it becomes reasonable to assume we could tell the difference.
This is the test I propose. Currently, I suspect we will be able to detect with near perfect accuracty, but I may easily be wrong for the reason I started with at the top, thus the need for this test. At any rate, the results should be saved and sent to people who can do something about it as proof either one way or another, they can then duplicate the test themselves and boom, we have a confirmed scientific proofiness showing if we are there yet or not.
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 15th May 2005
DJ is a wax figure! It all makes sense!
Are we jaded? - Great Rumbler - 15th May 2005
Why in the world would we want to do that, DJ?
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 15th May 2005
She's upset that she can't tell that the models look weird like everyone else does. So it's impossible that we do in fact see this "uncanny valley", since she does not. ;)
Are we jaded? - Sacred Jellybean - 15th May 2005
I'll bite. What's odd-looking about that model? It's very well-done, and I wouldn't be able to tell that it's CG if I didn't know better.
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 15th May 2005
Really? Look into its eyes... it looks like a really good wax figure.
Are we jaded? - Great Rumbler - 15th May 2005
They look like they don't have a soul. If that makes any sense.
Are we jaded? - lazyfatbum - 15th May 2005
He looks like Liam Neeson, and Liam Neeson killed jews. "I could have saved more." Yeah, nice 20/20 hind sight, jerkass. So in that respect, Liam Neeson has no soul and that is a completely realistic depiction of him. In that shot, he's wearing his Anti-Semitic Armor and about to eat eggs that were cooked in the same frying pan as fish.
But yeah, it looks completely real, we know it's fake so we cant help but look at it oddly. not to mention that our eyes and brain know what a living thing looks like on a sub-conscious level, we look for particulars that mostly revolve around movement. As all animals do we look for the eyes as well, we want to see expression. Liam Neeson there has no expression, he litteraly looks dead.
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 15th May 2005
Right.
Are we jaded? - Dark Jaguar - 15th May 2005
What the heck is the "uncanny valley"?
Why would we want to do it? Um... Don't you enjoy doing scientific tests? It's just for fun, but it could also be a good test the CG industry could use in the future to see exactly how realistic their models are. If you notice any flaws tell me, but I'd like to do this for fun.
And read what I said again OB1. I specifically said I'm pretty sure we'll all "pass" the test, getting a near perfect in being able to tell.
Yeesh, what did all the "fun" in science just DIE in you people? Well, not ALL of you, but OB1 and GR.
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 15th May 2005
You couldn't tell that I was kidding around with you? The winky smiley wasn't enough? What, do I need to announce that I'm not being serious each and every time? Maybe I need to use tags, like so: [I'M KIDDING]Hey DJ, you smell like butt.[/I'M KIDDING]
Are we jaded? - Dark Jaguar - 15th May 2005
Well that, or so I don't assume it never insult anyone seriously ever again, you know either or.
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 15th May 2005
That sentence made no sense.
Are we jaded? - Great Rumbler - 15th May 2005
Quote:Well that or, so I won't assume it, never insult anyone ever again. You know either/or.
I think it makes more sense now.
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 15th May 2005
Ah, there we go. DJ, the master of punctuation.
Whups, there goes an insult!
Are we jaded? - Great Rumbler - 15th May 2005
You've already messed up!
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 15th May 2005
I'm so bad!
Are we jaded? - Great Rumbler - 15th May 2005
You're like the Grouch, OB1. You always make fun of people, but deep down you really just want to eat cookies like all the other children.
Are we jaded? - A Black Falcon - 15th May 2005
Quote:Well that, or so I don't assume it never insult anyone seriously ever again, you know either or.
You know that won't happen, so hope for the other option...
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 15th May 2005
Great Rumbler Wrote:You're like the Grouch, OB1. You always make fun of people, but deep down you really just want to eat cookies like all the other children.
Tendo City is like the holodec, for me to play around with and have fun.
Are we jaded? - Great Rumbler - 16th May 2005
If this is the Holodec then where is the ambassador?!
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 16th May 2005
...
Are we jaded? - Great Rumbler - 16th May 2005
...right?
Are we jaded? - OB1 - 16th May 2005
... I don--....
...