Quote:- At flick's end, Threepio and Artoo are given to Captain Antilles (with the caveat that the Protocol's memory be wiped).

A Black Falcon Wrote:*doesn't read most of the spoiler boxes* ... I don't want to completely spoil the movie, that's no fun...



Does this mean Artoo remembers everything? :)

Quote:Yup! Makes perfect sense, don't it?

Quote:Anyway, this one is shaping up to perhaps make up for the last two afterbirths. I didn't read that much, but I hope to God they finally explain Palpatine's motives. If they don't this time, they never will, and I'll never stop complaining about it.

Ryan Wrote:Why was the writing and acting like that? I can't really see any reason other than to display processed campiness, and I hate when directors do that, unless it's to be funny.

Quote:Why was the writing and acting like that? I can't really see any reason other than to display processed campiness, and I hate when directors do that, unless it's to be funny.

Quote:Anyway, this one is shaping up to perhaps make up for the last two afterbirths. I didn't read that much, but I hope to God they finally explain Palpatine's motives. If they don't this time, they never will, and I'll never stop complaining about it.

Quote:Hmm... but why would he keep it secret, then? Why not tell... especially later, if he's carrying secrets that people really want to know...

Quote:He was always on a mission, remember? He always knew things that others didn't, and divulging secrets would have helped nobody.

OB1 Wrote:The writing and acting was done that very particular way because that's how Lucas envisioned the series to be like. It's a mixture of the styles of Flash Gordon, Bogart, and even Shakespeare. Everybody wants realistic dialogue, even in unrealistic settings. Current audiences have no taste or familiarity with the kind of dramatic romanticism found in moves from the 30's, 40's, and 50's. It's a very particular style that does not conform to modern tastes, and I have immense respect for Lucas because of that.

Quote:The books are not canon! Only the movies are.

OB1 Wrote:Everyone thinks they're a better cook than the chef. ;)

The story of Anakin and Padme is vastly different than Han and Leia, and the latter is inherently more fun to watch than the former. Anakin and Padme are Bogart and Bergman (albeit younger and more naive); Han and Leia are Cary Grant and Katharine Hepburn. Han and Leia's relationship is short and playful, not very pivotal to the story of the OT movies. Anakin and Padme's relationship is naive, brash, serious, and ultimately very tragic, and very important for the story of the entire saga. You cannot use the Han and Leia dynamic with Anakin and Padme.

Quote:It exists, but it's not canon...

OB1 Wrote:The writing and acting was done that very particular way because that's how Lucas envisioned the series to be like. It's a mixture of the styles of Flash Gordon, Bogart, and even Shakespeare. Everybody wants realistic dialogue, even in unrealistic settings. Current audiences have no taste or familiarity with the kind of dramatic romanticism found in moves from the 30's, 40's, and 50's. It's a very particular style that does not conform to modern tastes, and I have immense respect for Lucas because of that.

Quote:His motives and character will be fully explained, but no, you will not find out that he was molested as a child and is trying to escape from his lifelong torment by oppressing those whom he considers to be responsible for his innocence being taken away from him at such a young age.

I take it that that's the only thing that will be satisfactory to you, judging by past comments. You don't want realistic bad guys, you want unrealistic movie bad guys will tormented pasts!

The Emperor steals the movie.

Quote:Yes we do, but there is a time and place for that, and when it suddenly appears in a movie series after not being there for four entire movies, it goes without saying that some are going to question the logic for it being there at all. Star Wars had already went through one major love match (Han and Leia), and that felt much more natural.

Quote:Besides, the Anakin/Padme love fest smelled much more like A Walk To Remember than Casablanca to me. Humphrey Bogart was never a whiny little prick.

Quote:I don't need to know that some past event made him the way he was (although that's EXACTLY what the first three movies are about, the events than turn Anakin into Vader),

Quote:but I do want motives and reasons. Realistic bad guys don't wake up one morning and decide to take over the universe for no reason. How you could praise Lucas for drawing upon the works of Shakespeare and in the next sentence claim that Palpatine is a 'realistic bad guy' is amazing, when I've seen saturday morning cartoon villains with more comprehensive backgrounds than Palps.

OB1 Wrote:It did feel more natural, but that's because of its light-heartedness and the fact that Han and Leia weren't two little kids. Were you ever in love at that age, or seen a couple in love at that age? It's very awkward. And it wasn't as big a part of the story as the Anakin/Padme relationship.

Quote: You've obviously never seen The African Queen.

But I said that Anakin and Padme were reminiscent of a younger Bogart and Bergman. I could be more accurate with my comparison but I needed something that everyone (hopefully) would get.

Quote: Realistic bad guys aren't always tormented by horrible pasts and become tragic figures. That's Anakin. Palpatine is the devil, basically. But you will find out how he came to be, and why he does what he does. Though I suspect that nothing short of a Lifetime tv-movie moment will be enough for you.

Quote:Of course I have, and of course I do. Most people are just a little smoother than that. Though, it was really Anakin who made it crappy.

Quote:Perhaps so, but it definitely did seem like the Mandy Moore/Shane Whatever romance.

Quote:Yeah, you're totally not listening to me.

I don't care if Palpatine has a tragic past or not. Not every character has them. But most characters, good and bad, have motives. It'd be great to know why he's destroying the republic and replacing it with his Empire. It would also be nice to know what started him down this path. Or did he just wake up one morning and decide "Hey, I want to be an evil emperor!" Realistic bad guys aren't always tormented by horrible pasts and become tragic figures, but realistic bad guys ALWAYS have compelling motives. How did he become a Sith Lord? Was he born to it? Did he decide to do it? If so, why?

So no more comments about the tragic past crap, because you know that's not my angle and never was. I can't, for the life of me, why you seem to be happy Palpatine is one of the worst-conceived villains (in relation to both his importance to the story, and to the sheer amount of exposure he receives) in movie history.

Quote:It would be cool to find out if the Republic was once an empire and had a glory days scenario. Palps would want the republic to return to its former glory for all he wrong reasons. That would make him a mirror to Hitler. But ultimately Hitler too just wanted more power because his penis is small and he wanted to become a living God. Which is the most frightening reasoning you could ever drive as a motive. Think of Nero; just pure perversion.

OB1 Wrote:You have stated in the past that real-world "villains" are not interesting unless you look at their tormented pasts or details from their childhoods, which is why I said that. But guess what? Milosevic and Hitler didn't have much deeper motives than Palpatine, and he's a fictional character!

DMiller Wrote:I don't know about Milosevic, but Hitler had plenty of motives for what he did. I'll get back to you with details if you want, but I must be off to the cinema right now.

OB1 Wrote:But Palpatine's motives (to put it simply): wanting to bring a galaxy back to its former glory and remove the incompetence that has controlled it for thousands of years, has many parallels to Hitler's. There is more to it than that, but I don't want to spoil Episode III for you. I suggest you wait until you see that movie, and if you are still unsatisfied then there is no hope for you.

Quote:In the OT, you learn all that you need to know about Palpatine for those movies. Nothing more is needed; simply adding more backstory to a character does not constitute great storytelling. You don't just give every person an elaborate background. But your ridiculous simplification of Palpatine does little to help your case.

Quote:Give me a direct example from the movies where Palpatine states that he wishes to return the galaxy to a former glory. I know that the Republic is decaying from the inside because of poor leadership, and Palpatine remarks upon this, but nothing he does speaks to me that he is really interested in fixing the system. He wishes to replace it with his own, one born from a corrupt individual. Palpatine does not want the system to improve, for that matter, he doesn't care if it changes one bit. The only thing he wants is to be in control of the system, good, bad or ugly, and that the Empire is riddled with corruption and decay is proof enough of that. The Empire is much more iron-fisted in its methods than the Republic, but it is no more efficient or stable (after all, a small rebel force is able to knock the Empire flat on its ass in a matter of only a few years), and right up to the end, Palpatine sees no wrong in what he does, neither in the moral sense, nor in the application sense. He's such a genius that his protege tosses his wrinkled old ass into a reactor core and his empire is brought down with the help of an army of teddy bears.

Palpatine doesn't want order and stability, and he never gets it. What he does want is power, and that's what he gets. He may use the guise of order and stability as bait to convince others, but the viewer cannot be fooled unless he allows himself to be.

Quote:Jesus, I know not every character deserves his own chapter of history. But Palpatine isn't just any character, he is the single most driving force behind the existence of Star Wars! Everything that takes place happens because of what Palpatine does! Without Palps, we wouldn't have Darth Vader, or the slaughter of the Jedi, or the Empire, or the force which rebels against it. Without Palpatine, nothing would have changed. Palpatine is the master manipulator, the puppeteer who controls every major event of the entire play. He is, by far, the single most influential and important catalyst of the entire series. Every other character in the series is, in the end, a pawn in a game he created and controls. He deserves more backstory than ANYONE, and that he has so little to show in that category is a travesty. Palpatine COULD be such an incredibly deep character even without the whole tragic past angle, yet Lucas, for whatever reason, through five movies so far given us no character development whatsover on this character. The only change Palpatine goes through is that he starts out as the Evil Chancellor who controls things from behind the scenes, to the Evil Emperor who controls things from center stage. That is not character development, just inevitable progression. It is lazy.

I won't say Ep. III won't answer a lot of my questions. It just may satisfy me. But after five episodes of nothing, you can't blame me for being skeptical... well, most people can't. You'll have no trouble though, I know

Quote:Really, it's an effective way to argue a point: completely ignoring the facts and making up your own to fit your false argument. Bravo!

Quote:I don't know about Milosevic, but Hitler had plenty of motives for what he did. I'll get back to you with details if you want, but I must be off to the cinema right now.

Quote: Spare me that. You've never told me what his motives are, you both merely assure me that he does have motives, and that this movie will satisfy my desire to know what they are. I'm not ignoring any of the facts, because these facts simply aren't revealed yet. How can I acknowledge what does not exist?

Quote:But Palpatine's motives (to put it simply): wanting to bring a galaxy back to its former glory and remove the incompetence that has controlled it for thousands of years, has many parallels to Hitler's. There is more to it than that, but I don't want to spoil Episode III for you. I suggest you wait until you see that movie, and if you are still unsatisfied then there is no hope for you.

Quote:Give me a direct example from the movies where Palpatine states that he wishes to return the galaxy to a former glory. I know that the Republic is decaying from the inside because of poor leadership, and Palpatine remarks upon this, but nothing he does speaks to me that he is really interested in fixing the system. He wishes to replace it with his own, one born from a corrupt individual. Palpatine does not want the system to improve, for that matter, he doesn't care if it changes one bit. The only thing he wants is to be in control of the system, good, bad or ugly, and that the Empire is riddled with corruption and decay is proof enough of that. The Empire is much more iron-fisted in its methods than the Republic, but it is no more efficient or stable (after all, a small rebel force is able to knock the Empire flat on its ass in a matter of only a few years), and right up to the end, Palpatine sees no wrong in what he does, neither in the moral sense, nor in the application sense. He's such a genius that his protege tosses his wrinkled old ass into a reactor core and his empire is brought down with the help of an army of teddy bears.

Palpatine doesn't want order and stability, and he never gets it. What he does want is power, and that's what he gets. He may use the guise of order and stability as bait to convince others, but the viewer cannot be fooled unless he allows himself to be.

Quote:That's like saying that Zeus should have a greater backstory in the tales of Hercules because he's behind everything. Yes Palpatine is behind everything in the movies, but he's not the most important part of the saga. There is sufficient information on Palpatine and his motives in the movies (not even including Episode III which like I said will bring everything together), but he is not the most important character in Star Wars. He's the puppeteer, yes, but the story is about the puppets. Eh, you get my drift. It's about the Skywalker family.

Quote:You should know a lot about that one, OB1... at least the 'not listening to the other person's arguement" part.

Quote:Haha, I said that with you in mind, and I think you know that which is why all you could muster up as a response was "PFFFT THAT"S SOO YOU!!!!1111".