+- Tendo City (https://www.tendocity.net)
+-- Forum: Tendo City: Metropolitan District (https://www.tendocity.net/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Tendo City (https://www.tendocity.net/forumdisplay.php?fid=42)
+--- Thread: Who has the Zelda bonus disc? (/showthread.php?tid=223)
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - EdenMaster - 16th February 2003
Quote:Originally posted by lazyfatbum
We brought it home and fired up the surround sound and Progressive Scan mode of my wide-screen baby....Anyway, my baby can do split screens and make either screen the size that you want, so we made them each the size of 32 inch TV's and proceeded to hook up the N64.
*Cries with envy*
How much did "your baby" set your wallet back :)?
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Dark Jaguar - 16th February 2003
The wallet was probably subtracted from the universe just so the TV could be added to it, quantum style!
Oh, and I gotta say that sure everything's in super good high res, but every once in a while I gotta say that's a BAD thing. I didn't really want to see all the detail of some of the textures, like many of the walls ya know :D. However, as far as I can tell, it's a half and half thing. Some things look better in high res like bosses and Link the mighty, it's just that some things really benefited from N64 style blur :D.
On another note, some of the colors seem a bit off. Actually, so far I've only noticed one color that's WAY off. There just MIGHT be more :D. Anyway, it seems that the "blood" is blue and green for some reason instead of red. I'm not sure why that was done, but it only really looks out of place in Jabu Jabu, who's flesh is very red indeed. I guess if Ganondorf's blood color is changed it could be attributed to him no longer being a humanoid. Anyway, it's a weird little graphical glitch, but nothing too major.
Oh, and yes indeed this is the best of pre-order deals. To be honest, I think this is how ALL game remakes should be and should have been done. Instead of selling us the Mario Advance games, they SHOULD have packed in the old Mario game with a brand new one. Then you aren't buying a remake of a game you already own, you are buying a brand new game that happens to have an old classic built in.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Nintendarse - 16th February 2003
I have to say that, on my big screen RPTV, hi-res and progressive scan makes a huge difference. Before, I was playing MM, and the line doubler on the TV made everything look really bad. Very stretched. Master Quest is very clean...very refreshing. I'm just walking around the Kokiri training area and appreciating that this puppy is free nostalgia. Ahhhhhh. I can smell it. I hope this type of promotion works, so that we can get more of it in the future.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - lazyfatbum - 16th February 2003
Line doublers suck, see if you can find some filters for cheap at pawn shops, it should clean it up alot, and dont forget to clean your lenses every 10 months to a year.
Whitefleck/ It was a present from my parents for good grades. :D But the HDTV I got usually costs about 3000 bucks. However, at the Sears Outlet we got it for about 1000. Not bad huh? Check out other outlet stores to see what prices you can find. I found a 48 inch plasma screen for under 3000, that blew my mind but it was still too expensive, hopefully they'll go down here in a few months. In a few years, all HDTV's will radically drop in price when the FCC forces all the channelss and providers to go digital, which means everything from your local channels to your premium channels will be in HD. I wish they'd hurry up...
I'm on my way to the second dungeon now, I cant wait to see what changes are in store for me.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - The Former DMiller - 16th February 2003
My parents have an HDTV at home and I always hook up the Cube to it when I'm home. I'll have to check out OoT next time I go home. I think the second dungeon is where the changes really start to show. Master Quest is awesome. I just got past the Forest Temple today after being stuck on it for a while.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - OB1 - 16th February 2003
Well I got the bonus disc yesterday and I've had about an hour or so to play it. The changes here and there are pretty cool, but aside from the dungeons it's basically the same game, which I expected. The higher resolution is great, but couldn't they have bumped up the framerate to 60 fps?
Ah well, it's still an awesome freebie.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Dark Lord Neo - 16th February 2003
Daredevil got out after EB closed so I couldn't go there to try to get the disk yesterday, but the grocery store was open until 10 so I tried there, but they looked at me like I was crazy when I asked about pre-ordering zelda, one clerk said he didn't know a new Zelda game was coming out and the other said he hadn't heard about the disk, but Eternal Darkness was on sale so I bought it, I'll try to go to EB tommorow
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - OB1 - 16th February 2003
Haha, how surprising. They didn't know about the new Zelda game at your grocery store??
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - A Black Falcon - 16th February 2003
Its stuff like the reactions at a non-games focused store that is why I buy most of my games at EB and Gamestop... as well as Kay-Bee sometimes, because its closer... but mostly EB and Gamestop. Best Buy is OK, but I find that the others have a better selection and equal to better prices...
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Dark Jaguar - 16th February 2003
I didn't even notice the frame rate. Once again, I must say that the 64 really did NOT have all the frame rate problems IGN said it's games had. Sheesh, 30 FPS is just fine!
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - A Black Falcon - 16th February 2003
That is absolutely true. Jet Force Jemini ran just fine in any way I could tell...
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Great Rumbler - 16th February 2003
No one is my area is taking pre-orders for Zelda yet. Well, except for Blockbuster, but they insisted on being stupid about it:
Me: Are you taking preorders for the new Zelda?
Guy at Blockbuster: Yeah.
Me: Do you have the preorder disc in?
Guy at Blockbuster: Preoder disc?
Me: The demo disc you get when you preoder.
Guy at Blockbuster: Oh, you only get that when you pick up that game.
Me: Uh, I don't really want to preorder after all.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - OB1 - 16th February 2003
30fps is fine on the N64, but for an old N64 game on the Gamecube? That's just lazy.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Dark Jaguar - 16th February 2003
I don't even see why 30 FPS is even noticable, AT ALL! How did you even TELL it wasn't 60 FPS? The eye can only catch so much!
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - A Black Falcon - 16th February 2003
I don't know either... all I can guess is that some people can really notice the difference between 30 and 60...
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Laser Link - 16th February 2003
Quote:Oh, and did anyone notice the new Gamecube logo screens at the start of each of the movies? The GBA logo has it's own new twist too. It's much more edgier and fast-paced compared to the start up logo we're used to. Very nice, I hope all Gamecube commercials use this logo.
Yes, I did notice that. Very schway. I wish Nintendo used that all along, it's much cooler than the unfolding cube thing.
Quote:It was a present from my parents for good grades. :D
Wow. I think I had only 3 Bs in my entire K-12 life and a 3.8 GPA through 3 years of computer science, and the best reward I ever got was a dinner at a restaurant. Can I at least have your old tv? Mine's turning red and blurry. *cries*
Sorry. :)
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - lazyfatbum - 17th February 2003
hehe :D
Actually Master Quest might be in 60 fps. I didn't notice any double images yet when moving quickly in first person mode. Do you remember getting the Sun's Song? After the cut scene of the Graveyward going from night to day (or day to night depending on your time there) it would show a scene of the camera moving downwards quickly to the default view behind Link, in front of the poem you got the song from. In the original game, it gave double images ala 30 fps, now it's super smooth. I believe it's definately above 30 now.
DJ/ The human eye recognizes upto 90 fps. You can definately tell 30 from 60, but 60 to 90 is a different story.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Weltall - 17th February 2003
I should finally be getting it today! I'm so excited!
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Darunia - 17th February 2003
I've had the demo disc since yesterday; and I don't know WHAT I was expecting...but this isn't it. I'm glad to have OoT on the GC now, but...the Master Quest, from what I've played into it (only as far as the Deku Tree) is no different visually, and the only thing that IS any different, is there are more monsters. Not very impressive.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - big guy - 17th February 2003
Darunia, have you read any of the posts in this thread? apparently, and i wouldn't know myself, since i don't have my disk yet *cries for 1/2 hour straight* the changes aren't very apparent until the SECOND dungeon...as in, the one after the deku tree...don't be disappointed yet, it'll get better.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - OB1 - 17th February 2003
lazy: I am positive that neither one of the Zelda games on the bonus disc runs at 60 fps. You don't run that fast in OoT so it's not a huge deal, but if you go into first-person mode and move the camera around you can very easily tell that it's running at around 30 fps.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - The Former DMiller - 17th February 2003
Yeah don't dispair Darunia. The Deku Tree hasn't been changed too much. It's only fitting that Darunia's home is the location of the first dungeon where you really notice a lot of changes.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - lazyfatbum - 17th February 2003
OB1/ You're probably right, but I think it does go above 30. Maybe it's because the game was never meant to work with 60 fps - But after comparing it with the N64 version many many times, it's safe to say that some things are definately smoother. Maybe it's just because there's no drop in frame rate from something loading in the background, etc?
I'm in Dodongo's Cavern now.... :S
I have no clue what to do next, i'm stucker than a big... old thing... that's... stuck...
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - OB1 - 17th February 2003
That's becuase you're running it on your big HDTV in progressive scan. Regular tvs can only display 30 actual frames per second, so when people say that a certain game running at 60 fps on a regular tv, they actually mean fields per second since it's interlaced. But on HDTVs you get true 30 or 60 frames per second.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - OB1 - 17th February 2003
Yeah I was right. From ign's Hyrule Times vol. 25:
Quote:The framerate, in particular, remains unchanged and takes some getting used to after playing titles like Eternal Darkness or the new Wind Waker. Amazingly, after 30 minutes of play you will get totally used to the 20-24fps visuals Ocarina of Time presents you with. Your eye and brain simply accept the chop and you can concentrate on the great gameplay just like you did so many years ago.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Dark Jaguar - 17th February 2003
Ugh, IGN is actually back to their old ways again! Dangit, I didn't have to "get used to" the old frame rate at ALL because simply put it wasn't even noticable! Thanks for the info on the human eye's limitations lazy, but I guess I'm just not concentrating or something because I didn't notice a single thing. I sure wish I had an HDTV though...
Hey Darunia, you may not have noticed but there were some puzzle changes in the Deku Tree. Sure, not many, but enough to tell you there's more to come. Did you really expect them to improve the graphics by some extreme amount? That would have been great, but it also would have made it so that you most certainly wouldn't be getting this game as an extra for preordering another game (I will NOT say it's "free" because you DO have to pay money to get it, which is NOT free).
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - OB1 - 17th February 2003
What "ways". It's very easy to tell the difference between 30 and 60 fps. It's not too big of a deal with something like OoT though, but it would have been nice.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Sacred Jellybean - 17th February 2003
I didn't notice the drop in framerate, as I'm not a FRAMERATE WHORE like IGN and OBQuiet.
Actually, I never went into first person mode, but I still doubt the skippy framerate would bother me.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Dark Jaguar - 17th February 2003
I go into first person mode often enough playing that game, but still I never noticed anything like that. This is coming from someone who did notice what the lack of some of that old blurring reveals in the textures, and some visible seems here and there, and the weird color glitch regarding the blood.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - OB1 - 17th February 2003
Haha, so I'm a framerate whore, eh? Nah, I've just been playing video games long enough to notices these things.
This is what you should do in OoT to better see what I'm talking about. Go into first-person view and turn around as fast as you can. The first-person camera isn't very fast in OoT, so you can go full speed. Try to make out details in the background while you're moving. Then stop. Now quickly pop in Metroid Prime and look around in a circle at the same speed as you did in OoT. You should notice quite a big different in smoothness as Prime runs at 60 fps.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Dark Jaguar - 17th February 2003
Why would I WANT to be able to notice stuff like that? I prefer finding 30 FPS totally acceptable. Oh, once again with the fanciness. You think I haven't been playing games since I first found out they existed, which was early enough in the least to be around when the NES was launched?
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - OB1 - 17th February 2003
Boy, you really think I'm fancy, huh? :D
I'm not the only person in the world that can tell the difference between 30 and 60 fps.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Great Rumbler - 17th February 2003
*becomes fancy*
Me: ...Sorry I can't think of anything funny. Dang.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Weltall - 17th February 2003
I WOULD have gotten it today, but because of this fucking ice I can't go anywhere and I have to waste two vacation days just to get my full pay :(
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Darunia - 17th February 2003
I saw screen shots that must've been from Wind Waker; and I must've misconstrued them for being a totally revamped OoT. Oh well.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - EdenMaster - 17th February 2003
Quote:Originally posted by OB1
Boy, you really think I'm fancy, huh? :D
I'm not the only person in the world that can tell the difference between 30 and 60 fps.
It plays. It's fun. It looks fine. What else matters?
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - OB1 - 17th February 2003
Sure it does... but it's on the Gamecube now. It would have been so easy for Nintendo to lock the game at 60 fps, but they chose not to.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Dark Jaguar - 17th February 2003
And only you and IGN even care!
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - OB1 - 17th February 2003
That's not true. I'm sure if you asked everybody here (all three of us) if they care about framerate, most of them would say yes.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - A Black Falcon - 17th February 2003
Yeah. I really don't see how you can tell the diffrence... I sure can't...
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - EdenMaster - 17th February 2003
I don't care. I'm probably the least superficial one here when it comes to graphics. 30 fps, 60 fps, I don't care. As long as it runs I'm fine with it.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Dark Jaguar - 17th February 2003
There ya go, that's all three of us, and not a one of us cares.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - OB1 - 17th February 2003
Well for Zelda it's not a humongous deal since you don't move very fast in the game, but for something like F-Zero it's an absolute must. It's also extremely important for FPS's.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - big guy - 17th February 2003
the difference between 30 and 60 fps is noticeable to me, not because 30 fps looks bad, but because 60 is so crazy smooth. like comparing time splitters 2 to say, perfect dark...in a small room.
also, slow down doesn't bother me so much, as long as it's just that, slowdown...not skipping. i was just thinking about that. in OoT, when i'd jump sometimes the action goes into slow mo...but it never drops a frame. that doesn't bug me too much, but when the animation gets choppy, i hate that. just a thought.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Dark Lord Neo - 17th February 2003
Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
I saw screen shots that must've been from Wind Waker; and I must've misconstrued them for being a totally revamped OoT. Oh well.
Hah I remember that post with all the screen shots of the awsome new game, but remember it said later that those where just some artist renders of what they said they hoped the game would be like
I'm happy with my new copy of OOT because it's all myne, I had to share OOT with my brother. This plus Eternal Darkness should keep me very busy until WW comes out.
The only times I even really notice frame rates are when they drop, otherwise I don't mind if somthing is 30FPS, I only mind when they try to make it run at 60 or 30 and then it drops when alot of things are on screen
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Laser Link - 17th February 2003
Quote:It would have been so easy for Nintendo to lock the game at 60 fps, but they chose not to.
OB1, the graphics programming expert, has spoken. Hail.
OB1, when you talked about spinning in OoT and MP and comparing the difference, I bet the reason you can't see the background is because it is because of blurry textures. They would tend to blur together into one mess since you can't focus on them for long. But I haven't tried it, so maybe it's skipping and that's what you mean.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - OB1 - 17th February 2003
Oh so you don't think that it would have been easy for them to improve the framerate? Then please explain to us how difficult it would be, oh master on high.
Uh no, it has nothing to do with the blurry textures. It's easier to notice the lower framerate when you're moving the camera around in first-person, which is what I was trying to get DJ to do.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Dark Lord Neo - 17th February 2003
If Nintendo were to raise it to 60FPS wouldn't they need to draw extra frames for Links movements as well as almost every other movement for other characters and items in the game thus raising the cost of this bonus and making it so that it would not be worth it for them to release the bonus disk.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - OB1 - 17th February 2003
I don't think that's true. Lazy would know more about this since he's been going to Fullsail and uses Maya 3d, but from what I know that doesn't matter.
You've seen AotC, right? Or any other movie that uses CGI effects. Well I was reading about an animation problem that they had with Poggle the Lesser in AotC. Poggle has these bracelets on his arms that move around whenever his arms move, and the animators were having a problem with the bracelets constantly colliding with each other and the arms. It turned out that the software was incorrectly calculating the sub-frame collisions (since film moves at 24 fps you see all of the actions blurred, but the computer has to know where objects are even between the frames otherwise you get problems such as the one above) against non-active collision geomatry (his arm). The same can be applied to OoT. Since the frameate is not locked at 30 fps non-stop(it's always running at roughly 20-30 fps), the computer has to know how each object animates even in between frames. If you increased the framerate you wouldn't be changing the animation, you'd only be making it smoother.
Who has the Zelda bonus disc? - Dark Jaguar - 17th February 2003
But actually changing the frame rate could be quite difficult in comparison, since as you stated it's not "locked". LL knows more about this than I do (and most likely more than you as well) and lazy most likely knows more about graphical stuff than I (it's a fact), but from what I do know since the frame rate isn't locked, it's likely limited based on other things. There's more to it, but simply put it's the system's speed that limits it. In the case of the GCN port, they could simply have set up an artificial overall speed limit (likely they set the same thing on N64, but anyway) which would affect anything that would normally go as fast as possible. Resolution isn't something that has a "speed" that could get out of control. However, frame rate is. To alter the frame rate, they would first have to find a way to seperate whatever part of the graphics code anything that deals with the frame rate from the rest of the stuff that's limited. This frame rate stuff could be spread out in many functions, or part of other functions you wouldn't want sped up. They would also need to insert some code to "lock" the frame rate, or in other words set it's limit. This is a lot more work than a simple res boost (but likely not as much as the port work, not that I've got any clue what was done there, as I haven't really studied anything regarding the actual process of translating languages into machine code, though maybe LL has and I'm pretty sure Lord Shockwave has) from what I understand or even the Master Quest programming (well, a large amount of that, if not all, was already done by Mr Miyamoto's gang back for 64DD) because all they would need to alter there (assuming they had a working program specially made to build OOT levels, which since it's cheaper and quicker to go about it that way than directly, I bet they did) is where stuff is placed, inserting chests and stuff into the map and all that stuff which after the code for how it all works is done, is both easy and fun (I imagine anyway from my limited experience :D).
Anyway, that's just what I think the reasoning is behind it all. Remember, of those taking programming classes here, I'm likely the furthest back in the training, so pretty much anyone else could easily correct me. However, I'm pretty sure it would have been a much bigger effort to mess with the frame rate than to just boost the res.
One thing they could have considered doing was replacing a large number of the textures with higher res ones (didn't they keep the originals before compression around?), which would have involved just replacing all the image data with other image data, a simple cut and paste job. To be honest I'd MUCH rather have improoved texture work than higher frame rate, since as I said it's not noticable unless you pay really close attention or have fly eyes like OB1 here. The problem there is that it's a pretty LONG thing to go about doing (res boost would be one thing they would need to adjust and that's about it) and they would have to do quite a bit of testing to make sure not once is all that added texture data causing slowdown (which could very well happen if they add too many textures, even with all that power at the GCN's disposal it could slow down if the RAM is overloaded, just one bottleneck and all that rot...). Anyway, that's enough from me. Now then, shoot it all to shreds those who actually have studied far more than me!