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Dorks vs IGN - Printable Version

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Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 15th July 2004

Read the first one and then the second one. :)

http://cube.ign.com/articles/527/527243p1.html

Quote:Smashing Success
How Microsoft created a franchise phenomenon and Nintendo ignored one.


June 29, 2004 - I have a question for you and I want you to roll it over for a second. What will be the biggest game of this year? Throw away your prejudices this once and realistically consider the contenders. Whether you're a Microsoft, Nintendo or Sony fan, I believe there's a good chance that your answer will be the same: Halo 2.

The first-person shooter sequel was, after all, the talk of the Electronics Entertainment Expo 2004, winning a number of awards for its acclaimed Xbox Live-enhanced multiplayer mode, and it dazzled crowds with its single-player element last year. The hype has not died down since May, either. Halo 2 continues to dominate the rankings at GameStats. It's clear the game has the hardcore audience hypnotized with anticipation.

But it doesn't stop there. Walk into your local game retailer and the guy behind the desk, the one with the sweat stains under his arms, will tell you all about it. "Halo 2 is going to kick your ass," he'll say, with a not-so-bright grin on his face. At least, that's what he told me.

Justin Timberlake also wants Halo 2 and he doesn't have any sweat stains under his arms. He's got groupies there -- or, that is, Cameron Diaz. The pop superstar recently traveled to developer Bungie's office to catch a first glimpse of the sequel in motion, and Microsoft was right there to promote that truth. I read about it in Entertainment Weekly along with millions of others. That mainstream audience is there and it has taken notice. Master Chief has become a Microsoft juggernaut.

When you think about it -- when you really stop to examine what Microsoft and Bungie have done -- you can't help but be impressed. Here you had this developer that was originally popular for its Macintosh games. You had this publisher that was completely new to the console market. And the two of them created a title that outsold every last offering on GameCube by at least a million units, including a game with all of Nintendo's mascot powerhouses combined.

But I'm getting slightly ahead of myself so let me hit the rewind button. Three years ago Nintendo, just before the launch of GameCube and Xbox, was sitting in what it thought was a pretty position. It had a powerful, robust piece of hardware. It had a decent launch lineup. But mostly, it had mascots. And to be more specific it had Super Smash Bros. Melee, which was billed as its flagship game -- and, I think, for damned good reason. The fighter, a sequel to the N64 hit of the same series, was absolutely packed full of classic and wholly popular Nintendo icons. Mario. Luigi. Link. Samus. Pikachu. Something for every Nintendo fan, really.




When Nintendo showcased Super Smash Bros. Melee for the first time at 2001's E3 event, fanboys cheered as if their favorite football team had scored the Super Bowl-winning touchdown. This enthusiasm carried over to the Regular Joes. Consumers bought GameCube not because they wanted to play Luigi's Mansion, but because they wanted to fight it out against friends with some of their favorite Nintendo superstars.

Just look at the data. Super Smash Bros. Melee is, even today, GameCube's most popular game. The title has sold through some 2.3 million units in the US alone, according to NPD tracking through May. That figure doesn't quite compete with the success of Halo, which has sold more than 3.3 million copies through the same period, but it's no slouch either, especially when you factor in Xbox's larger installed base. Super Smash Bros. Melee outsold Super Mario Sunshine. Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, Pikmin, and Metroid Prime. It outsold every Resident Evil title on GameCube. It outsold every Madden title on GameCube. I could go on.

So my question is, in the midst of all this Halo 2 hype, where the hell is my Super Smash Bros. Melee sequel?

Nintendo cannot cling to old answers. It cannot say that it's not a company interested in making "cookie-cutter sequels," a catch phrase company president Satoru Iwata has used in the past. After all, the majority of its big 2004 and 2005 games are, in fact, sequels. Metroid Prime 2. Pikmin 2. Resident Evil 4. A new Zelda for 2005. And sometime after that, a new Mario game.

Has Nintendo chosen to consciously ignore what has been its most successful franchise this generation, and if so, why? I certainly can't come up with a logical answer. I try to imagine the scenario and my brain immediately reminds me that there are 80-plus people working at Hal, the company that created the hit fighter, and there are no announced titles in development by the studio. This leads me to suspect that it could, dare I say it, be working on a major Super Smash Bros. Melee sequel.

It would certainly make sense from a business standpoint. SSBM continues to be one of GameCube's more popular titles on a monthly basis, regardless of its age. But even if a sequel is underway, I can't understand Nintendo's decision to keep quiet on the subject, especially when Microsoft is trumpeting the arrival of Halo 2. Why not do the same? Why not generate some hype? Why not let Nintendo fans know that GameCube's most popular franchise has not been forgotten?




It's not as if Nintendo fans have lost interest. All it took was the inclusion of Link as a playable fighter in Namco's Soulcalibur II to make the GameCube version of the game the highest seller. That's right, it beat out both the PS2 and Xbox builds in sales. In fact, GCN Soulcalibur II outsold the Xbox version by nearly 200,000 units, according to NPD data through May.

Perhaps Nintendo believes that if it shows a Smash Bros. sequel too early, competitors will copy its ideas. Like they did, I guess, for Super Mario Sunshine. Do you all remember the wave of water-backpack-themed games that hit the market after Nintendo released its platformer? Oh, you don't? Well, there's a reason for that. How about all of the real-time strategy games with cute critters that flooded retail shelves after Nintendo released Pikmin? Wait -- that didn't happen.

Whatever the reason, any way you slice it this is bad news for Nintendo and its fans. Nintendo's biggest franchise has seemingly been put away, stored in the closet as it works on something else, and the fans who gobbled up the fighter shortly after system launch can only wait. And why, I have no idea. I can only hope that somewhere a sequel is being worked on, or mulled over, or at least contemplated, and that Nintendo does have a plan to maintain interest and to build hype.

What would be scary to me is the alternative: that Nintendo could simply forget about the franchise that single-handedly sold GameCube to consumers.
-- Matt Casamassina

http://www.nintendorks.com/editorials/archives/000659.php

Quote:July 01, 2004
A reply to Matt Casamassina, IGN

Hi, it's Chris. I think we should talk.

What’s your full first name? Matteo? Matthew? Mattias? Doesn’t matter. I’ll just call you Matt. I read your article, Matt. You criticized Nintendo for not capitalizing on the popularity of Super Smash Bros: Melee, while Microsoft’s Halo 2 is so popular even Justin Timberlake enjoys it. In fact, Justin Timberlake is dating Cameron Diaz. You certainly don’t see Cameron Diaz getting pounded by someone that plays Cubivore.

Matt, I have to be honest. Your article comes across as someone fuming over the fact that their favorite game doesn’t have a new sequel. That’s fine. I mean, I’m not going to write a serious article about why Nintendo should make a sequel to Ice Hockey, but sometimes people get overly excited when talking about something they love. However, you made an assertion that should make everyone pause and wonder - wonder why you think Nintendo is hurting themselves by not releasing another entry in the Super Smash Bros series.

In your tagline, it says that Nintendo ignored a franchise phenomenon while Microsoft created one. Well, kudos to MS, they have one. How many does Nintendo have? Mario, Zelda, Metroid…believe me, I could go on. And I will! Fire Emblem, Custom Robo…oh, those don’t count because they’re only popular in Japan? Okay, how about the newly christened Pikmin, the pink one, Kirby, and the ever popular Pokemon…no, too cute? Well, okay, we’ll stick with Mario, Zelda, and Metroid, then. And not F-Zero, or Donkey Kong, or…ahem. Plus, I promise not to talk about any GameBoy Advance incarnations, or the planned DS incarnations, because your focus was on the Cube.

Mario, through its existence, has seen more spin-offs than anyone could ever have anticipated, plus plenty of straight sequels. This generation, when Mario wasn’t enjoying the Sunshine, he was having a Party, playing Golf or Tennis, or going Kart racing. He’s even going to star in an upcoming RPG adventure that looks good on Paper and will probably be even better in execution. Mario’s brother, Luigi, has even managed to exorcise ghosts in a Mansion.

The Zelda franchise has been healthy. Aside from the popular Wind Waker, the multiplayer puzzler Four Swords and Tetra’s Trackers (the latter seen in Japan), have been released, and Nintendo even had two different promotions which gave free versions of classic Zelda games to gamers. Plus, there’s a new Zelda in the works due out by next year.

Metroid, on the other hand, hasn’t been so hot…unless you count Metroid Prime and the upcoming sequel to Prime. Metroid Prime relaunched a franchise that hadn’t seen a game since rappers wore glittery pants and had clocks around their necks.

You might say Nintendo is neglecting a franchise in Super Smash Bros, but I’m here to tell you Nintendo’s lucky if it has time to sleep with all the attention its been giving their other franchises.

The main point in your argument was that Super Smash Bros: Melee is one of Nintendo’s best selling titles, and Nintendo/Hal should be working on a sequel to it right this very second. Well, sure, SSB:M did well, but don't forget that it was released in December 2001. I think, perhaps, that it has had a head start over other titles, wouldn’t you agree? Super Mario Sunshine, a game released in August 2002, actually outsold SSB:M for all of 2002 (according to NPD Funworld).

Of course, we’d have to look at what else Nintendo released at the same time as SSB:M. Let’s see…Luigi’s Mansion and Wave Race: Blue Storm. LucasArts released Rogue Leader and Sega released Super Monkey Ball, and that about covers it for exclusives. They’re not bad games, but they’re not blockbuster console sellers, either. In fact, some would say Nintendo’s launch titles were a bit weak. Matt, do you think SSB:M would have been the highest selling launch title if a new Mario or Zelda was released at the same time? What about Metroid?

If you want to get down to finances, and you want Nintendo to sell the most, then SSB:M isn’t your answer. A fighting game made up of other game’s mascots isn’t something to build your fortunes on. The big franchise names out of all three consoles, three years in a row, have been Grand Theft Auto and Madden (and Pokémon, but I promised not to talk about GBA games). Would you prefer it if Nintendo and its friends scrapped Samus and Link and focused on trying to top a free-roaming crime game and a football blockbuster? Somehow, that doesn’t scream Nintendo’s style.

Don’t worry, though, Nintendo is doing alright for itself. According to NPD Funworld, Nintendo’s GameCube had a 40% unit sales increase in 2003 over 2002, while the PS2 had a 25% decline and Xbox broke even. Nintendo’s corporate retail revenues increased 16% in 2003 compared to the year before. If you ignore the two Pokémon titles at the #2 and #3 slots in the best selling games list of 2003, you will see a Nintendo game at #5…which is…let me see…why, yes, it’s The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker.

And this is just the U.S. Sure, it’s the largest market for video games in the world, but it’s not Nintendo’s sole bread and butter. Nintendo routinely has games in the top ten for weekly sales in Japan, while Microsoft is lucky to crack the top twenty. Halo sales topped at 75,000 in Japan, by the way (MSN).

Still you persist. Bungie and Microsoft, you claim, are the greatest duo since Sonny and Cher. So, what has Bungie been up to since Halo? Halo 2? Nothing else? What about other MS first party developers? Rare? Micro Forté? Excuse me if I don’t concede victory to Microsoft.

Nevertheless, you say Halo 2 has all of the hype while Nintendo has nothing. You’ll have to excuse me, Matt, if I don’t let Nintendo’s success or failure rest on the shoulders of Justin Timberlake, who is so inept with women that he opened up a can of worms during the Super Bowl. Or maybe it was a can of boob. Either way, he’s an idiot. I will give more consideration to the next fart that passes out of my ass than I will Justin Timberlake’s video game preferences. And excuse me if I’m not dying for preteen queen Justin Timberlake to be associated with Nintendo.

But back to the hype. You ask the readers, Matt, why Nintendo isn’t trying to drown out Halo 2. You were at E3. You heard every jaw drop at the sign of one game. It wasn’t Halo 2. It was the new Zelda title. It’s coming out in 2005, and the few minutes of footage have already caused a bigger stir than all of the months Halo 2 has been in development. If by “dropping the ball” you meant Nintendo is “grabbing our balls and shaking them like a madman,” then you would be correct.

All things considered, I would be willing to say the new “mature” Zelda will outsell Halo 2. It’s a mighty big claim, considering the massive mainstream appeal of the Halo “franchise” that you cling to like a wet t-shirt to a large bosom, but this new Zelda is something fans have been wanting since before the first Halo. Wind Waker was great, to be sure, and it sold tremendously, but it’s not what people desired in the bottom of their hearts.

Soul Calibur II on the Cube outsold the Xbox and PS2 versions because of the exclusive Link addition, as you pointed out. Yet somehow you come to the conclusion that this means Nintendo fans want a new fighting game, and not that they are enamored with the Zelda franchise. If you put Link in MVP Baseball on the GameCube, it would outsell the other console versions, too. It’s not the type of game, but the character. People make connections with characters. There’s only so much that can be done in the First-Person Shooter genre, especially with nameless figures that have no emotional connection with the fanbase. The Zelda universe, on the other hand, is only limited by what the imagination can conceive and how to express that through the technology. Sure, the core values are the same, but Ocarina of Time, Majora’s Mask, Wind Waker and Four Swords are diverse from each other in a way Halo’s sequels could never, ever be.

SSB:M did well because it took our favorite mascots and pitted them together. But it’s a diversion, a treat, a side attraction. It should not be the centerpiece of the system, anymore than Mario Kart. As I said, if Nintendo had launched with a main franchise title, it would have seriously outperformed SSB:M. And don’t get me wrong, Matt, I like the series. But it’s better suited for a once-in-a-console-generation release, like Mario Tennis or Paper Mario. I’d much rather have a new Zelda or Metroid or flagship Mario title than I would a new SSB:M, and I suspect many fans would concur.

I know this Halo 2 thing bothers you, Matt. Don’t worry about it. In ten years, people will still be playing Zelda. If the Halo franchise is doing half as well Zelda, and if it is not just a memory, then that will be a tremendous achievement. If you had bothered to ask which is more important, a 27 year old buying Halo or a 7 year old buying Super Mario Sunshine, I would have answered the latter. I was once a 7 year old, sitting on the floor in front of my TV, jumping and swaying with the action as I navigated a portly plumber over pipes and chasms. I’m still doing that today, although not necessarily on the floor, and in 15 years, that child will still be playing Mario at the age of 22. I somehow doubt the 42 year old will still be playing Halo.

Nintendo builds for the future while satisfying the present. It’s worked for the longest time, and it will continue to work. Trust me. Nintendo and its cohorts are focusing on the parts of its illustrious franchises that need to be released.
Posted by Chris at July 1, 2004 05:57 PM

:)


Dorks vs IGN - Dark Jaguar - 15th July 2004

That read was... interesting. Don't be surprised if IGN never even gets wind of that guy's response though.

My take? Well, having gone to the effort of reading that IGN thing, I'm reminded of my general opinion of IGN anyway. They strive to entertain us, not inform us. If they can create controversy or an issue where there is none, they are getting more visiters, and thus are getting paid. They are to gaming what E! is to movies and TV. You can get some info there, but keep your guard up so their opinions don't get through. Honestly, with them actually talking about famous stars playing games as though I care, it's not long before they start talking about marriage scandels in the game industry, and that's when I won't even visit IGN any more.

The second guy I actually find myself agreeing with. Biased towards Nintendo just a tad? Sure, but for the most part it's a fairly accurate portrayal of Nintendo's current situation, as owners of countless beloved franchises and toppers of sales charts. Halo 2 will be a HUGE thing for the XBox, I know I have my copy reserved, but Zelda GCN 2 will be huge as well, if not bigger, and MP2 will also be big, as well as Mario 128 whenever that comes out. MS does online best so far, but I have more than twice as many GCN games as I do XBox games. Not a knock on the system, and I'm missing a few XB gems, but that's just how it is. For the most part I see more games I want on the GCN at any one time than the XBox. Also, a couple of the games I have for XBox are just there because they are better versions than the GCN ones, like for example, Prince of Persia. XBox has some GREAT games, and it is the clear winner in online games, but Nintendo wins in sheer number of great games. However, mathematics are something I don't apply to these sorts of things. I want ALL the great games I can get, so I got the XBox too.


Dorks vs IGN - Great Rumbler - 15th July 2004

Gotta say I completely agree with Chris. Smash Brothers is awesome, but Nintendo doesn't need to get carried away with it and take resources away from other franchises to make more of them.

Quote:Justin Timberlake, who is so inept with women that he opened up a can of worms during the Super Bowl. Or maybe it was a can of boob.

Heh heh :D


Dorks vs IGN - Dark Jaguar - 15th July 2004

I am wondering what games HAL is working on lately. I'm almost certain it's something Kirby related for the DS though... call me crazy...


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 15th July 2004

Quote:That read was... interesting. Don't be surprised if IGN never even gets wind of that guy's response though.

They'll hear of it, I think. Nintendorks has been around for a long time now, after all, and back in '99 (before all the downtimes killed their readerbase) they were actually a IGN affilate... I just wouldn't expect a response. :)

As for the IGN article, yeah, I didn't exactly find myself agreeing with it. Sure, Halo 2 is big. But why should Nintendo make another SSBM unless they have a good reason? I can't think of anything they could add to the formula, you know, other than online, and Nintendo has made its opinion of that quite clear. So what would be the point? More characters and levels? SSBM already has quite a few... I just don't see the point outside of "it'd sell many copies" and that isn't a good reason to make a game. It just doesn't make a whole lost of sense...

And the point about it not just being SSB to counter Halo but also Zelda and Metroid is a really good one. Yes, Microsoft also has other big titles -- like Fable -- but Halo 2 is their centerpiece while Nintendo spreads it out among more franchises. And I think Metroid Prime 2 will compete well with Halo 2, like Prime 1 did with Halo... the added multiplayer mode should help. Though it better have LAN support! :)

It really does look like the IGN article was a panicked reaction to thinking Nintendo needed an "answer" to Halo 2. Either that or he really wants more SSB... but the first one was answered by Nintendorks and the latter one just doesn't make a lot of sense unless the impossible happens and it goes online, so IGN's article is shown to be flawed.


Dorks vs IGN - EdenMaster - 15th July 2004

Bravo, Chris. Way to tear IGN a new one.

Trust me, I'm a big Melee fan. I've logged literally hundereds of hours into Melee, and I still break it out every so often and have just as much fun with it as the first day I played. It's a great game and I love it to death, but I'd rather a new Zelda or Mario than a new Melee. I'm willing to wait till Revolution comes out to see a new SSB, if that means playing an incredible new Zelda on my GameCube next year, I'm willing to make that sacrifice.


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 15th July 2004

And what a horrible sacrifice that must be, right? Forced to play Zelda instead of what we really want, which is SSB to become a franchise Nintendo uses like Mario Party!

Seriously, what was Matt thinking?


Dorks vs IGN - EdenMaster - 15th July 2004

Indeed. Mario Party is a great example. Mario Party, while fun, has had so many sequels churned out that nobody cares anymore. What Nintendo is doign is keeping their SSB as their ace in the hole ofr thier new console. Give us Melee and leave us salivating for more, and we'll certainly buy a Revolution console to play a new one.

Well, unless you're like us and plan to get one anyway :).


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 15th July 2004

Or how about King of Fighters? Still great games, but does it REALLY need yearly releases? Most of them are pretty similar... Mario Party is even more so. Or how about... yup, Pokemon? Frankly, to see a franchise Nintendo could easily do that to and see them NOT do it is great. And it shows that you don't have to do that to have a successful franchise of games like that (that are easy to make many versions of)...

As for SSB... SSB:M is great. But SSB for N64 is also great. It's still very fun. Could there have been several versions in between, or after Melee? Given the fighting genre, absolutely. But it'd be like all those other fighting games which get old as they make more and more very similar sequels. Unless they change something big SSB would get old if they rehashed the game over and over with new releases. Though the games would probably still be great fun it'd still hurt if they did that. I know plenty of people tired of KOF or Mario Party (or Pokemon) when if they'd released fewer versions people might have kept more interest... releasing more versions helps with the harder core fans, but does it overall? I'd say no.

How about Mega Man... sure, it's the #1 series for this. And it's still a fun series. But plenty of people tired of the formula years ago... so they try to change things (X, Zero, Battle Network, etc) to compensate. The issue is that then they just make similar sequels of those games. Oh well, but at least they're doing something... though I can't help but think that there could have been several less Mega Man games in the past few years...


Dorks vs IGN - Dark Jaguar - 15th July 2004

Exactly. Honestly, I can wait until Nintendo WANTS to do online play for the next SSB game. There are only two SSB games I'd like to see. The lesser one would be an arcade game, simply because fighting games and the arcade love each other. I know I'd enjoy defeating random people in person in the arcades. The one I REALLY want to see though would be a DS game. Now, SSB is something that really COULD be done in 2D anyway, via scaling, since the gameplay is 2D anyway. Considering the DS is 3D now, they could easily do that. I want to see this game done because the DS is online basically, and also portable smashing would be fun.

However, I can wait. It's no big deal to ONLY have Melee for a few years :D (well, let's face it, I have barely touched the original since the new one came out).

Mario Party is a great game, but with so MANY, well, I have a hard time justifying buying the latest version when I know a few months will pass and the next will be announced. I just keep thinking "oh, I'll just wait until the next one". For that reason, I don't own ANY of the Mario Party games :D. I would have owned the first, but by the time I got around to thinking about getting it, MP2 was out and MP3 had been announced, so it began. My standing now is that I'll wait until that very first online Mario Party game and that'll be the first I get. Yes, it'll be a while, but I am still convinced that, while not for a few years, Nintendo will eventually have to form an online plan for their console.

Eh, point is, IGN really has a habbit of making up really pointless "stories" when the news is dead.


Dorks vs IGN - alien space marine - 15th July 2004

IGN is made of crackwhores who dont know what their talking about.

I remeber a review for Warcraft III, The IGN reviewer when talking about the story and its history didnt know a fucking thing! He said Medivh was in warcraft II exspansion and was the big evil boss leading the orcs as warcheif. What a incredible bull shit review! Its like saying Kuja was in Final Fantasy VII when actually he was in FFIX or saying Luke Skywalker was in episode I.

They shouldnt talk about things and try to make people think your some kind of expert and write things you dont know about or not sure of without doing research otherwise real fans will read it and discredit your hole review for such a lack of knowledge of the series making such sloppy mistakes. The real truth is that Medivh was not even in any warcraft II game, He was in warcraft I orcs and humans and was in level 7 of the human campaigns were you had a mission to kill him inside his tower while he was summoning big ass Deamons and also had fire elementals,slimers and alot of shit to kill you.

IGN is filled with morons just to get the point across.

Dorks is right , SSB Melee did so well because it was the only major sequeil released and it had no major compeition when it launched untill the big guns were released later,If Zelda and Metroid had launched at the same time things would have been different.SSB Melee was a sucessful game but not compared to the other major ones nintendo is working on right now.I think the next Zelda game is a higher priority.

I am sure they will make a sequeil just really late in the gamecubes life like usual or on the next console.

Saying Halo 2 is the only major good Xbox game at E3 is a lie too,KOTOR II the sith lords is a big deal atleast for me, I also heard Rare is gonna make a remake of Conkers bad fur day with multiplayer and possibly Xbox live support.


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 15th July 2004

KOTOR II... yes, that is a top X-Box game. But it's getting a just about simultaneous PC release so that doesn't really count as any kind of exclusive... :)

I'm looking forward to console gamers discovering the Black Isle (erm, Obsidian, but it's all Black Isle people...) is just as good at RPGs as Bioware. The unfortunate part is that it doesn't come until Black Isle is dead and Interplay moribund. :(

IGN. They are stupid. But go to Gamespy and you'll see how IGN can be made on occasion to look good. Anyone else recall their Mario vs Donkey Kong review? :S But still, stuff like this does NOT make them look good... Halo vs SSBM is not the best possible comparison by any means.

DJ: Arcade SSB would be pretty cool, wouldn't it... DS? I don't know how it'd use the touchscreen or double screens, but wireless multiplay would be cool. Though that connects to online... and the Game Boy. Why hasn't there been a GB SSB game yet? It's not like it has some huge technical barrier or something! There should have been at least one by now, I think.

Mario Party. Yeah, I kind of feel similarly. I wouldn't mind having one of them. The minigames in Kirby 64 are in that style and I definitely enjoy that game (well, the fruit collection one stinks, but Hundred Yard Hop is more fun than it should be to play in multiplayer mode...). But there are six now, and they keep making them, so I kind of have thought that I'll wait for the next one or something like that... though if I get one it probably should be N64. I still only have three NGC controllers, and one of them doesn't work right... (that's also why I have played SSB for N64, BTW -- 4 player mode. Or even three.)

My biggest question for IGN really is why we need another SSB. I just don't think the reasons are there. Not without online (or a Game Boy/DS release). Nintendo has more than enough franchises that they don't need to worry that much about one game... yes, Halo 2 will be huge. But it'll be huge no matter what Nintendo does and what they should do is release great games to go against it. Like the lineup they're already working on, perhaps. :)


Dorks vs IGN - Dark Jaguar - 15th July 2004

Yeah, I really wasn't thinking it should use the duel screen or touch screen modes myself. Anything I can think of would just make it cheap. Honestly, the upcoming Metroid game for DS, where you just point at the thing you want to die and it dies, seems so cheap as to kill all challenge. I mean, aiming should involve SOME level of challenge. Mouse or control stick, you still need to actually point with some level of real aiming difficulty. Here, you just touch the thing you want to die. That's about as challenging as playing Duck Hunt by actually putting the light gun right up against the screen (come on, I know we all did it) rather than actually standing a few feet back and actually aiming.

Eh, anyway, I can't see it working with a fighting game in any reasonable way. There is the matter of the control stick and "smashing", but I imagine simply having a button you hold down or click to "trigger" that mode would allow that and still keep things simple enough.

Yeah, concerning KOTOR, it was only an exclusive for a few months, so that doesn't really count as a killer app for the XBox. KOTOR 2 seems the same way. Honestly, I think I'll get the PC version there as, concerning the first one, the XBox version has NOTHING on the PC version, at all, but the PC version has control and graphical superiority (plus, the bugs are actually getting fixed, somewhat).


Dorks vs IGN - alien space marine - 16th July 2004

Dark Jaguar Wrote:Yeah, concerning KOTOR, it was only an exclusive for a few months, so that doesn't really count as a killer app for the XBox. KOTOR 2 seems the same way. Honestly, I think I'll get the PC version there as, concerning the first one, the XBox version has NOTHING on the PC version, at all, but the PC version has control and graphical superiority (plus, the bugs are actually getting fixed, somewhat).

They did sort of release a patch for Xbox live, Gave those bonus extras they had in the pc version and maybe fixed a few bugs.(thats if you have Xbox live :( )

I didnt find the bugs to bad, Never noticed anything so bad you couldnt play and have fun.

I dont see why the Graphics actually have to be better? The Xbox version is pretty damn good anyways. Also you need a good computer for the PC version and possibly a graphics card. The Controls to me are not as good like a Console controler it just so easy to use and get into.

To me its kind of like Final Fantasy they had a PC version for all of them except FFX, But nobody cared for the pc version even with superior graphics,The PSone versions were the ones that sold the most and got the most publicity.

I need a reason to use my Xbox for games now, The only game I played religously was KOTOR to me it was better then Final FantasyX, Mech Assault and Project Gotham 2 kind are boring, PG2 isnt as fun as GT3, Since GT3 it allowed you to buy loads of cars and customize and upgrade them at shops in the game, You also could race in the simulation mode with any car you wanted if it fit the tournament rules,In PG2 as soon as your finnished a compition you cant reuse the same car in the next one. The only advantages in PG2 is Xbox live and car damage, Customizable sound track.


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 16th July 2004

Quote:Yeah, I really wasn't thinking it should use the duel screen or touch screen modes myself. Anything I can think of would just make it cheap. Honestly, the upcoming Metroid game for DS, where you just point at the thing you want to die and it dies, seems so cheap as to kill all challenge. I mean, aiming should involve SOME level of challenge. Mouse or control stick, you still need to actually point with some level of real aiming difficulty. Here, you just touch the thing you want to die. That's about as challenging as playing Duck Hunt by actually putting the light gun right up against the screen (come on, I know we all did it) rather than actually standing a few feet back and actually aiming.

Metroid aiming removes all challenge? Not according to the previews, which said that it made it hard to play and cumbersome... it's unique but the control scheme didn't get too good early impressions. But I'd have to try it to see how it really works...

As for SSB (or other fighting games) I can't think of much that would use a touchscreen either. Doesn't seem really right for that genre...

Quote:Yeah, concerning KOTOR, it was only an exclusive for a few months, so that doesn't really count as a killer app for the XBox. KOTOR 2 seems the same way. Honestly, I think I'll get the PC version there as, concerning the first one, the XBox version has NOTHING on the PC version, at all, but the PC version has control and graphical superiority (plus, the bugs are actually getting fixed, somewhat).

PC games generally don't seem to "count" for exclusivity. Think of Rogue Squadron for instance... it was on PC too soon after its N64 release but it's a N64 exclusive... it's a bit different when the PC version comes out a lot later (GTA, Halo, etc), but when they are close, calling it exclusive is stupid.

It is this team's first console game, but it should go fine. They're quite used to making games built on Bioware engines (this being their fourth such game). :)

KOTOR... the PC version is better if you have a good PC. It's got a minimum install of like 4 or 5 gigabytes and pushes hardware, so if you don't have a pretty good machine it won't look as good as the X-Box title. But if you do, you can make it look better... just like Morrowind.

FF7 and FF8 did get PC versions. But they weren't great ports and the graphics actually look worse on PC because the PC doesn't have the 'benifit' of the fuzziness of a TV, and is running at much higher resolutions, so the backgrounds looked quite bad... in a way the PSX versions actually have better graphics. :)


Dorks vs IGN - Dark Jaguar - 16th July 2004

Indeed, plus that KOTOR update only added in the PC exclusive content, and they will NOT add in any more content. Also, no bugs were fixed at all, not a one. Finally, that content update is only for the English version. I think you speak French natively asm, so you don't get it.

FF7 and FF8 did indeed get PC releases. Why didn't I go for them? Well, I could point out that my PC at the time SUCKED (though now I COULD play KOTOR for PC and make it look better), but I'll also point out that even if my PC could play those games (which had much higher requirements than they should have), I wouldn't get them for a few reasons.

First off, as ABF pointed out, the higher resolutions actually HURT those games. In some ways they look better, but in some ways, FF8 in particular here, they look worse. Then comes the actual games. Both of them are horribly glitchy. It's as though Eidos (the porters) only tried ONE computer setup, and when it worked they said "okay that's enough" and sent it off. You have to have a VERY specific setup for either to work at all. Patches have been released though. Not by Eidos mind you, but unofficial ones. They not only fix the games, but they have a few special updates. However, I'll go ahead and base this purely on what is officially available. Anyway, FF7 did get one bonus, a lot of translation errors were fixed. FF7 had a decent enough translation anyway, but it did have a lot of stupid errors like the whole "that's how you fooled 'em" "that's how you fool them eh?" thing. At least no spoony bards :D. This isn't enough to make up for the skippy music and videos (they used some outdated compression method that does NOT work with the faster CD-ROMS we use today), the occasional missing textures, and the glaring texture problems that are revealed by the boosted resolution combined with the PC moniter's superior sharpness anyway. Also, there are the controls. They basically just mapped the console controls to keyboard, so it's still a 1st person control method (not first person view, first person control :D) which is awkward with a keyboard. A little mouse support would have been greatly appreciated for things like menu navigation. Anyway, while one can use a PC controller, it just doesn't feel right... Though, I'm sure some won't care.

Overall, I'd say the console versions of these two really are better than the PC ports. I'd attribute that to Eidos' failings at that job myself. I don't own either port as you might imagine, but I've seen all I need to see. Now, I have only read a few things about the MMX ports. I downloaded the MMX demo, and found it VERY blocky in appearence, and thus inferior to the SNES version. Now, maybe they did some anti-aliasing for the full version or something, but the demo certainly didn't. I imagine similar things might be wrong with the other X games that made it to PC, but I don't know enough to be certain.

However, other PC ports get it right. FFXI for example from all accounts is exactly what a port should be. Graphically, if you have a powerful enough machine, it looks better, though the only improvement is the higher resolutions (and things that result from that, like the menus are smaller and thus more out of the way), the point is the higher resolutions actually make it look GOOD. Aside from that, not a single difference, but since both versions can play with each other on the same servers, they HAVE to be identical (hence why the PS2 version NEEDS the HDD). Anyway, since those types of RPGs are generally played with keyboard and mouse, and there's the higher resolution, the PC version really is the better pick I think. The reason one might not get the PS2 version would be purely because they want to get the HDD and as of yet it's ONLY sold with that game packed in, and they don't want to waste money on a second version of a game they already got. Considering that as far as gameplay and all the OTHER graphical thing, both are exactly the same, that isn't really a bad decision if you really want that HDD.

Eh, anyway, what was I saying? Oh yes, in the case of KOTOR, it really seems like the PC version is in every way better. Not really a suprise. I mean, while the XBox version did come up with a nice targetting system and a pretty decent control method, it just doesn't match PC controls for this sort of game.


Dorks vs IGN - Dark Jaguar - 16th July 2004

Speaking of companies being totally ignorant but pretending they know what they talk about, only to find that you can't fake knowledge...

http://www.planetnintendo.com/ff1/

Quote:FF1 on TV!

[07-05-2003 8:15 PM]

Some of you might be lucky(?) enough to get the TV channel G4, an entire channel about video games. Well today they did a brief review of FF Origins. Five minutes at the end of a show, but hey, better than nothing. Some highlights were seeing them have a White Mage cast HARM on Garland for some reason, and seeing a black belt getting killed by an Ogre. :) They also reviewed FF2j which is also part of FFO for those of you who haven't bought it (yet). Apparently they believe that Cecil, Rosa, and Tellah are among the characters in FF2j. Apparently G4's writers have also never played FF2 or FF4 in their lives.

Indeed, anyone who knows about the whole sorted history of FF games can tell these guys just read an FAQ for "FF2" (called that back during the SNES days here in America as we all know) and did no extra research beyond that. Having watched G4 a few times myself, I have to say that entire network is totally clueless on EVERYTHING about what we gamers want.


Dorks vs IGN - EdenMaster - 16th July 2004

Dark Jaguar Wrote:Mario Party is a great game, but with so MANY, well, I have a hard time justifying buying the latest version when I know a few months will pass and the next will be announced. I just keep thinking "oh, I'll just wait until the next one". For that reason, I don't own ANY of the Mario Party games :D. I would have owned the first, but by the time I got around to thinking about getting it, MP2 was out and MP3 had been announced, so it began. My standing now is that I'll wait until that very first online Mario Party game and that'll be the first I get. Yes, it'll be a while, but I am still convinced that, while not for a few years, Nintendo will eventually have to form an online plan for their console.

Indeed. I bought Mario Party 4 some time ago during a game drought so I could have something new to play (specifically the time between SFA and RE0), and I'm happy with it. However, I will not shell out another 50 bucks to get the <i>EXACT SAME GAME</i> plus maybe 30 or 40 more mini games.

I have Mario Party 4, and it will probably be the last Mario party I buy on the GameCube. I'll consider buying a new one for Revolution when it comes out (and you know there will be a MP for Revolution not long after it's launch).


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 16th July 2004

Quote:Overall, I'd say the console versions of these two really are better than the PC ports. I'd attribute that to Eidos' failings at that job myself. I don't own either port as you might imagine, but I've seen all I need to see. Now, I have only read a few things about the MMX ports. I downloaded the MMX demo, and found it VERY blocky in appearence, and thus inferior to the SNES version. Now, maybe they did some anti-aliasing for the full version or something, but the demo certainly didn't. I imagine similar things might be wrong with the other X games that made it to PC, but I don't know enough to be certain.

I have MMX-PC, but haven't really played the SNES version so I can't really judge... :D I thought it looked good, but I wasn't comparing it to the SNES game. I have heard that it isn't as good looking though, and it's probably true.

For your information, they also ported over MMX3, 4, and 5. Why they skipped 2 I don't know. But I did get 4 and 5. But they're PSX ports and came later, so I think that they are pretty much console-perfect. Those are good ports. I have a lot of PC games, actually, that came out both on PC and consoles -- Rollcage Stage II, Future Cop LAPD, Moto Racer 2, Need for Speed: High Stakes, MDK2, etc... many more... most of them are fine ports. Sure, some have annoyances. There are a lot of games that don't let you use the mouse in menus. Save systems can be annoying -- why does Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo limit me to 2 save slots? Why do MMX4 and MMX5 have their save system broken into two seperate files each with about five files inside (emulating a PSX memcard)? Why does Beyond Good & Evil have such an annoying control scheme that makes me use the mouse in some menus and the keyboard in others, while always having to confirm with left mouse? Etc. But those things can usually be adjusted to and don't ruin the game unless there are other things wrong too, I'd say...

Quote:FF7 and FF8 did indeed get PC releases. Why didn't I go for them? Well, I could point out that my PC at the time SUCKED (though now I COULD play KOTOR for PC and make it look better), but I'll also point out that even if my PC could play those games (which had much higher requirements than they should have), I wouldn't get them for a few reasons.

Just play the PC demos of FF7 and FF8... it's painfully obvious that the resolution and sharpness doesn't work. The polygonal parts look great, but those backgrounds... ouch...

I played the FF8 demo a few months back and it's still painful to think about. :D


Oh, and as for KOTOR, I'd also bet that mouse control can work better in that kind of RPG than a gamepad...


Dorks vs IGN - Dark Jaguar - 16th July 2004

MMX3 actually had a PS/Saturn release (only in Japan, so it's actually RMX3) with FMVs and everything, I wonder if the PC vesion was that... Anyway, skipping 2 after doing 1 is kinda odd, but oh well.

I actually did play a demo of FF7 PC. All it had was the colloseum mini-game though, which is hardly a good sampling of the game...


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 16th July 2004

http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/review/R23754.html

Yeah, this version does have the added cutscenes and stuff... it has the not as good graphics, but it does have that. And a real save system, like in X1 PC. Though no packed-in gamepad, I think... :)

And the FF7 demo I played some years back was an early part in the game... an hour or two of the game.


Dorks vs IGN - Dark Jaguar - 16th July 2004

More than the demo I played... If it's really the start of the game, then at least you got a taste of what the game is like.


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 16th July 2004

Changed that post, DJ, with new information. :)

And the demo I played was the one PC Gamer put on its CD.


Dorks vs IGN - Dark Jaguar - 16th July 2004

Like I have ANY idea what that had on it.


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 16th July 2004

It was years ago, but I remember ... um, some long bridge, and a lot of random battles, and then this village, and then it gets destroyed or something and the people chase the badguys on some form of mass transportation and it ended there. Yeah, not too helpful. :)


Dorks vs IGN - Dark Jaguar - 16th July 2004

Hmm, sounds like the very first mission... I think... Was there a reactor draining the magic life energy of the planet you were trying to bomb?


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 16th July 2004

Isn't that good detail for a demo I played once for a hour or two six or seven years ago? :)

*checks for disc* Ah, as I thought. It's the 3Dfx-only version of the demo.


Dorks vs IGN - EdenMaster - 17th July 2004

It's funny that we were talking about Melee here. Tonight, I signed up for a Melee tournament, happening on August 1st. I'll have to dust off my copy of Melee and get Ganondorf ready for battle once again...


Dorks vs IGN - OB1 - 18th July 2004

Yeah I saw this stuff, very funny. I agree with Matt that Nintendo does make some very odd business decisions (we can all agree on that), making a new Mario Party each year but completely ignoring their best-selling GC franchise, SSB. I'm not really anxious for a SSB sequel but I'd certainly rather see one than ten friggin hundred Mario Party games in the system's lifecycle. If I had it my way each major franchise would only get one sequel per console, so that we could get some new and original titles.


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 18th July 2004

Mario Party is made by Hudson, right, not Nintendo? That might be part of why there are so many versions, it isn't a first-party development...

The other case for this of course is Pokemon, but I didn't really think that that had to be said. :D


Dorks vs IGN - Great Rumbler - 18th July 2004

Yeah, Hudson makes Mario Party.

Quote:The other case for this of course is Pokemon, but I didn't really think that that had to be said.

It makes money.


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 18th July 2004

So they make sequels. Need more be said?

... I will anyway. It should follow this same rule -- not too many seuqels or stuff released with no discernable point except raking in the cash. It makes money but by most other standards just doesn't seem like a very good idea.


Dorks vs IGN - Great Rumbler - 18th July 2004

Quote:but by most other standards just doesn't seem like a very good idea

Apparently they're giving people what they want...


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 18th July 2004

But how many people REALLY want that many Pokemon or Mario Party games? Sure a lot of people buy them because they like the games, but if they thought about it...


Dorks vs IGN - OB1 - 19th July 2004

I'd rather see more SSB's than Mario Parties and crappy Pokemon games.


Dorks vs IGN - Great Rumbler - 19th July 2004

I'm sure just about all of us would, but I don't want SSB to become another washed out series with too many sequels like that two. They'll make another SSB when they think they can do something new that'll warrant a sequel, I'm sure of it.


Dorks vs IGN - OB1 - 19th July 2004

What I propose is that they take some of the resources out of Mario Part 10, 11, and Pokemon: Pikachu's Stupid House Pet Simulator to make a SSB 3.


Dorks vs IGN - Great Rumbler - 19th July 2004

Nintendo doesn't make Mario Party though, Hudson does.


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 19th July 2004

Quote:I'm sure just about all of us would, but I don't want SSB to become another washed out series with too many sequels like that two. They'll make another SSB when they think they can do something new that'll warrant a sequel, I'm sure of it.

Exactly my point. If Pokemon came out only once a generation and SSB yearly, you'd be saying the opposite thing I bet OB1...


Dorks vs IGN - OB1 - 19th July 2004

Yes, which is why we need a balance.

And I'm talking about resources, funds, GR. Maybe Hudson could work on a new SSB with HAL. Oh I don't know, I'm just throwing around ideas.


Dorks vs IGN - Great Rumbler - 19th July 2004

What they could do is team up with Capcom to make the next SSB game and it could be "Super Smash Brothers: Nintendo vs. Capcom" and it would be totally awesome.


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 19th July 2004

I don't think Hudson makes fighting games, though... :)

As for GR, that would be cool but I wouldn't put much hope on it. Street Fighter may not be full of blood but it's still definitely a lot more violent than SSB, and Nintendo cares about stuff like that...


Dorks vs IGN - OB1 - 19th July 2004

I'd like to see a Nintendo Vs. id Software fighting game, where Nintendo's characters (aside from Falcon) would just feel real sorry for the poorly-designed id characters, and then Mario would offer to give them a makeover with his awesome painting skills. And then beat them up.


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 19th July 2004

You really hate id, don't you...


Dorks vs IGN - OB1 - 19th July 2004

Yes. I just don't get why people like them so much. Some of their games are kind of fun, but not nearly as good as people praise them for. But the one thing that I can't stand most of all is their 12-year-old goth kid art direction. OooOooh, this skeleton has three heads and ROCKETS on his shoulders!!! Whatever


Dorks vs IGN - Great Rumbler - 19th July 2004

Quote:Street Fighter may not be full of blood but it's still definitely a lot more violent than SSB, and Nintendo cares about stuff like that...

I'm sure if Nintendo told them to leave off on the violence they would.


Dorks vs IGN - Dark Jaguar - 19th July 2004

Have you played SSB? That game has pretty much the same level of violence as SF. I mean, it's still you and another human smacking the holy karp out of each other for the amusement of it. Some of that looks painful anyway. I know I wouldn't like one person to hold me down while someone else beats me upside the head with a bat. I think the mafia is known for that particular thing anyway... I guess the fact that it was Mario doing the smack down fit then...


Dorks vs IGN - Sacred Jellybean - 19th July 2004

I don't think Super Smash Bros. characters and Capcom characters would mesh together well. :confused2 Seeing that in action would make my stomach hurt.


Dorks vs IGN - Great Rumbler - 19th July 2004

There's a Japanese-only GC that's like SSBM, but with Hudson and Takara characters. You could play as Optimus Prime and turn into a truck and run over people. Awesome game.


Dorks vs IGN - A Black Falcon - 20th July 2004

But the Capcom characters look more like real people. SSB characters just don't really look like that... it looks cartoonish in the violence, not that realistic. The only way I can see it working is if they used the mini-SF characters from Puzzle Fighter and Pocket Fighter...

As for ID, they may have lost some of their more creative talent (John Romero and Tom Hall), but who they do have still can make okay games. Fine, I don't own any ID games after Keen 6. But I doubt very much that they are as bad as you say... and Doom and Quake show up regularly on best game ever lists, and I'm sure it's for a pretty good reason (played each a little)...