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+--- Thread: ¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! (/showthread.php?tid=1869)
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¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - -iLluSiON- - 8th May 2004
Darunia gets his history for "cossacks - the art of war". please forgive him.
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - Moiraine - 9th May 2004
![[Image: battleshipcanada.jpg]](http://chopsticks.koolplace.com/stuff/pic/img/battleshipcanada.jpg)
I'm sure someone here has seen this before... I just thought it was kinda random and funny
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - Great Rumbler - 9th May 2004
:D
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - Darunia - 9th May 2004
ABF, all you did was take what I wrote, rebuke some of it and reword it with...well, more words. All I've been trying to beat into your Canadian cranium is that Austria, Spain and Mexico have poor military histories. For some reason, that threatens your existence, so you're gungho on proving to me that they're military histories aren't so bad.
But they are, so get over it.
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - A Black Falcon - 9th May 2004
They are no worse than anyone else's (in their categories), over the course of their histories...
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - -iLluSiON- - 9th May 2004
*agrees with ABF*
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - A Black Falcon - 9th May 2004
Spain... I mean, they had a major intercontinental empire! How in the world could you call them a complete failure militarially? And they forced out the Muslims once France stopped them at the Pyrrenes (sp). And united their nation into one (excepting Portugal), finishing when Columbus left -- recall Ferdinand and Isabella married to unite Aragon and Castille. Yes, after the 1500s or so they started slipping and were in full decline by the 1800s, but they were once great.
Austria, same thing. How in the world does a "failure" conquer most of South-Eastern Europe???
You're just looking at their weak points and calling them a failure for it. If that's the standard we are going to set, then the Roman Empire was also a MISERABLE failure. After all, they were CRUSHED in the Tannenburg Forest, permanantly stopping their expansion into Germany, and then several hundred years later collapsed! What more proof could I possibly need to know that they were a pathetic great power?
In short, you are using fundamentally flawed logic. Not that that's too surprising...
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - Darunia - 10th May 2004
Spain... I mean, they had a major intercontinental empire! How in the world could you call them a complete failure militarially? And they forced out the Muslims once France stopped them at the Pyrrenes (sp). And united their nation into one (excepting Portugal), finishing when Columbus left -- recall Ferdinand and Isabella married to unite Aragon and Castille. Yes, after the 1500s or so they started slipping and were in full decline by the 1800s, but they were once great.
It's all relative. They are poor compared to the rest of Europe. Even the dimmest bulb has its bright days.
Austria, same thing. How in the world does a "failure" conquer most of South-Eastern Europe???
What, you mean an area the size of Vermont? And you put "failure" in marks as though I actually said that word. You added failure; I just said in the beginning that they were the two worst European powers militarily. AND THEY WERE. One can tell that you're a liberal; it's in everything you say... "we're all special, there are no losers." Austria and Spain are, militarily, second class .
You're just looking at their weak points and calling them a failure for it. No, I'm looking quite broadly at 400 years of general history.
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - A Black Falcon - 10th May 2004
Quote:What, you mean an area the size of Vermont? And you put "failure" in marks as though I actually said that word. You added failure; I just said in the beginning that they were the two worst European powers militarily. AND THEY WERE. One can tell that you're a liberal; it's in everything you say... "we're all special, there are no losers." Austria and Spain are, militarily, second class .
Yes, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina (sp?), a big chunk of Romania (Transylvania was part of Hungary), and, of course, Austria are indeed about as large as Vermont. I bow to your superior geographic knowledge...
Naturally, their pitiful military might is proven by how the conquered all that... and same with Spain. 'Even a dim bulb has bright days'??? Spain was one of the most powerful countries in Europe for many decades, and worth mentioning for some time after that! And Austria was a powerful empire for centuries! You are insane!
So what are all these nations with SOOOO much better military records? Britain? France? Prussia? Italy? Umm, all of them have plenty of failures too, if you look at the "right" times like you're doing! EVERYONE has failures. Every empire weakens and slowly falls. Just like every one has a strong point.
Did I ever say that by the late 1800s Austria and Spain weren't weak empires? No. By that point, they had declined quite far. But your statements are very clearly not just talking about then. You're talking about their whole history. And that proves you to be totally wrong.
As for Mexico, they just had the bad luck to be just south of a much more powerful nation.
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - -iLluSiON- - 10th May 2004
Since ABF lives in Maine and Darunia and I go to the same college in Massachusetts (Goronville or Moronville?) I suggest we all meet up this summer and discuss this over a cup of coffee or tea. Oh, wait... I forgot, Darunia doesn't like either of those. One Lemonade please!
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - Darunia - 10th May 2004
Or on screwdriver (yes I'm cool because I ingest vodka,)
AND NOW BACK TO THE SHOW!
ABF. All I've been saying is that Spain and Austria are second class by world standards. They are. It's the way of things. Italy? Psf, don't make me laugh; Italy's just a tad better than Spain or Austria. Britain, France, Germany are the big three. Spain was big for a century, but declined not immediately after the Armada, but rather during the height of the Thirty Years' War. Austria may have conquered many small, divided people in many small states in the Balkan area, but they never successfully won a war against a (major) European state. Spain was cursed after 1648. I'm repeating what I've already said, because you just keep blaring history lessons at me without getting a clue: ALL I SAID WAS THAT SPAIN AND AUSTRIA AREN'T GREAT MILITARY POWERS/HAVEN'T BEEN FOR 350 YEARS. It's more an opinion than fact, but come on. You can't accept that, though, and you have to write out a huge report on how they used to be so grand. Ugh.
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - Weltall - 10th May 2004
Children shouldn't drink.
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - A Black Falcon - 10th May 2004
I like history. I wrote that because I wanted to, not because I "had" to... and because you're making vast overgeneralizations that actual history does NOT back up.
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - Darunia - 11th May 2004
You're just denying it until your ass bleeds. Anyone could pick up any authentic history of Western Europe and come to my same conclusion. Spain and Austria have been the least powerful European powers for 350 years. It's obvious. While they were declining, all the others were either growing or standing still. I insert the number '350 years', but you cannot accept that; so you trumpet at me how Spain was once so grand 500 years ago. That's 100% beside the point.
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - A Black Falcon - 11th May 2004
Austria wasn't seriously in decline until the 1800s (after the rise of nationalism). No, not 350 years.
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - -iLluSiON- - 11th May 2004
What about Spain's navy power? They were one of the most powerful nations with a navy...
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - A Black Falcon - 11th May 2004
The Spanish Armada was a major blow there... but it was still some time until Britain became indesputably the strongest naval power, I'd say.
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - Darunia - 11th May 2004
Austria wasn't seriously in decline until the 1800s (after the rise of nationalism). No, not 350 years My god, that is...so now true...Austria was, in my opinion, only a major power only for lack of a stronger one. Their power was never THAT supreme; and by the War of the Austrian Succession, it was all but absent. Spanish Succession; Seven Years War...they fielded armies, but played no major role in deciding the victory. By the Napoleonic Wars, they were "the sick old man of Europe"...bumbling and backwards. I'd say that this was in effect for 350 YEARS, as opposed to 200, quoted by you. They may've been a gallant, elogant power, but militarilly they were decrepid.
What about Spain's navy power? They were one of the most powerful nations with a navy...
They had a lot of ships...building a huge fleet was never a problem---but its quantity, not quality. The same is for France; who had a great fleet, but poor training and tactics. Thus, the British navy always, always, always won. The Spanish Armada, The Nile, Aboukir Bay, Trafalgar... all support this. The Spanish Navy hasn't won a major naval battle in....(again my date)...at least 350 years.
The Spanish Armada was a major blow there... but it was still some time until Britain became indesputably the strongest naval power, I'd say.
Perhaps...and the British came into power, what, 300 YEARS AGO!? About 1700 is when they really became prominent, I'd say about 1720, during the Spanish Succession.
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - A Black Falcon - 11th May 2004
And Britain declined in the 1940s. Every empire has a height and a decline and a low point...
France? Their navy had a few points where it competed with Britain's (such as, fortuitously for us, in 1783...), but it always faded back afterwards because Britain's was just better.
Spain and Austria we're just repeating ourselves... but I'll say more later anyway. :)
¡Hoy es el Cinco de Mayo! - Darunia - 11th May 2004
And Britain declined in the 1940s. Every empire has a height and a decline and a low point...
That's a very relative point of view. Britain didn't "decline", it threw away its empire. At that time, all of Europe did...it was the cool thing for western powers to do. They scaled down their militaries, liberated (almost) all of their colonies, and became the political wusses that they are today. If they hadn't opted to, Britain would still be the major world power it used to be. France could've done more to win in Indochina and Algeria. All of Africa would still be under the European sway. They opted to step down.
France? Their navy had a few points where it competed with Britain's (such as, fortuitously for us, in 1783...), but it always faded back afterwards because Britain's was just better.
Isn't that essentially what I just said. Yet you feel compelled to answer it anyway with an ABF slant. :shake: