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+--- Thread: Star Wars DVDs? (/showthread.php?tid=1582)
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 11th February 2004
Yeah, two ships against that massive imperial fleet! Sure is credible they lasted that long! And as Darunia said two were destroyed, so how were any left at the end? :)
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 11th February 2004
There were more than just two ships. They last for a little while because the Emperor made his fleet hold the attack until the last minute. The actual battle was really short.
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 11th February 2004
I know there were more, but they should have shown them too... :)
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 11th February 2004
They did...
Star Wars DVDs? - Darunia - 11th February 2004
Pay attention, they only use TWO mon cal models...the really long Home One model and the winged-blimpy on. Two blimpies are blown up. At the end, they show, as best I can tell when analyzing the engine wakes after the Falcon and Wedge blast outta the core, a bunch of Corellian corvettes, some weird shaped lights, and two big mon cals.
If you watch when the fleet first jumps into hyperspace en route for Endor, you'll see...maybe 15, 20 fighters (out of an allegd 4 wings of 72 fighters each), three Corellian corvettes, two or three Gallofree medium transports (the Hoth ones), one Nebulon-B, and both mon cal cruisers.
Again, when the fleet arrives at Endor, you'll see...just about the same. You can count and freeze frame, and you'll never see more than TWO mon cal cruisers at any one time, even when the show the entire fleet assembled. When Lando exclaims "pull up, all craft pull up!", you'll see the same two Mon Cals rolling and trying to slow down.
Two cruisers blow up. 2 - 2 = 0.
Afterwards, all we know FOR SURE is that the Home One survived, but it's just ridiculous to assume that the Rebellion only had one remaining capital cruiser. They must've had plenty of them...how much of a "perimeter" (as Ackbar called it) could they have set up against the Death Star with two heavy cruisers? (My Star Wars encyclopedia identified one of the lost mon cals as the Liberty, btw.)
OB1 & Great Rumbler--the Battle if super dandy and awesome, but it wouldn't have hurt to add some scenes. I personally don't care about the pod race scene, but the Battle of Endor--the greates battle in the entire Galactic War, the one that saw the birth of the New Republic and the fall of the Empire, well, they should care more about how it looks.
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 11th February 2004
Right. They could have actually represented all the ships that were there... wouldn't have been that hard...
I really noticed it in Rogue Squadron II though... the Endor mission. You only had two Rebel cap ships! There was a massive Imperial fleet in the distance, and you're supposed to hold them off with TWO SHIPS? It's a game! You could have done the whole Rebel fleet THERE!
Star Wars DVDs? - Darunia - 11th February 2004
New flash---
they show THREE mon cals, and after more research, they had THREE models---the winged-Liberty, the Home One, and a mysertious cross between the two, identified only through its pearly-white hull color. In found an awesome pic, wherein you can see all three: pearly in the front, Liberty on the bottom, and the Home One I suppose, with the gray-blue hull, in the far back, but I can't figure out how to post it here without uploading it somewhere else.
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 11th February 2004
There are only two in RSII. And not even a static background picture of a Rebel fleet like there is of the Imperial one.
And as for pictures it's called "attachments"...
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 11th February 2004
There are more ships than that, and the ships seen at the end aren't the only ones there.
BTW the end-all, be-all space battle will be in Episode III. Endor is as it needs to be.
Star Wars DVDs? - Darunia - 11th February 2004
There are more ships than that, and the ships seen at the end aren't the only ones there.
The ships that aren't seen do not exist. If they don't exist in the movie, there is no other accounting for them. There's only the movie account of the Battle of Endor to refer to, you can't just proclaim how the battle is (i.e. "they had more ships than they show") without any reference other than your belief that RotJ is perfect as is.
BTW the end-all, be-all space battle will be in Episode III. Endor is as it needs to be.
How can you say that? Episode III is in the middle of the series, and although it may be really big, it sure isn't the "end-all" that Endor is. Endor should've been vamped-up to show more of a fleet. If I could figure out the pics, I'd show my proof.
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 11th February 2004
Quote:The ships that aren't seen do not exist. If they don't exist in the movie, there is no other accounting for them. There's only the movie account of the Battle of Endor to refer to, you can't just proclaim how the battle is (i.e. "they had more ships than they show") without any reference other than your belief that RotJ is perfect as is.
You're counting wrong. And just because they don't show all of the ships in the last frame doesn't mean that they do not exist. If you look at all of the scenes and all of the ships (and actually know which ones are duplicates or not) then there are more ships than you think.
Quote:How can you say that? Episode III is in the middle of the series, and although it may be really big, it sure isn't the "end-all" that Endor is. Endor should've been vamped-up to show more of a fleet. If I could figure out the pics, I'd show my proof.
I know many details about the script while you do not. Episode III will have larger space battles than Endor, and larger and longer lightsaber battles than any of the movies. The Endor battle is perfect as it is, so much so that Lucas didn't even touch it for the prequels. It's a battle of a small fleet of rebels against a huge Imperial army. It's as big as it should be. Every frame of the battle is so packed with ships and explosions that adding anything else would be pointless, and extending it would disrupt the flow of the movie.
Star Wars DVDs? - Great Rumbler - 11th February 2004
Quote:BTW the end-all, be-all space battle will be in Episode III. Endor is as it needs to be.
YES!!
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 11th February 2004
Episode III opens with a space battle bigger than anything you've seen before in a SW movie. You'll be seeing Republic forces battling Seperatist battleships right after the title scroll. It's the end of the Clone Wars, so you know it's gonna be huge. It's the first major visual effects sequence ILM has started on.
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 11th February 2004
OB1, since the Rebel fleet was bigger, and they could show it at its actual size (like they did for improving that scene of the X and Y wings in ANH), THEY SHOULD! It would make it look a lot better, Ep.3 or not...
And though the Rebel fleet was "small" we don't know exactly how small in the movies... I mean, that giant imperial fleet... sure Palpatine dying caused panic, but still... shouldn't there have been enough of them left to do damage if the rebel fleet was really small? It must be sizable... I just wish they'd show it. :)
Star Wars DVDs? - Great Rumbler - 11th February 2004
That's what I've been waiting for. Episode 1's space battle left a lot to be desired and Episode 2's battle was all on land, cool though it was it just wasn't the same.
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 11th February 2004
A Black Falcon Wrote:OB1, since the Rebel fleet was bigger, and they could show it at its actual size (like they did for improving that scene of the X and Y wings in ANH), THEY SHOULD! It would make it look a lot better, Ep.3 or not...
And though the Rebel fleet was "small" we don't know exactly how small in the movies... I mean, that giant imperial fleet... sure Palpatine dying caused panic, but still... shouldn't there have been enough of them left to do damage if the rebel fleet was really small? It must be sizable... I just wish they'd show it. :)
They did show the entire fleet in the movie, you're just counting different ships as one.
And tactical realism isn't SW's greatest trait, as you very well know. Creating a Death Star with a huge, fatal flaw like that, and twice? Come on, it's pulp scifi.
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 11th February 2004
Together!
And the Second Death Star didn't have a fatal flaw. It was just unfinished!
Star Wars DVDs? - Darunia - 11th February 2004
This site shows off an effort by some REALLY big nerds (dwarf our local variety) who actually analyzed the Battle of Endor until their asses bled white from it. They show as many as four Mon Cals in any one frame. Now look at these pics on here...they show one big up-close cruiser, and the rest are tiny blips in the back that could only be photgraphs stapled behind the models and we'd never know better. These nerds (said with respect) also suggest that as many as a dozen mon cals were there.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/mcc.html
The Executor alone is enormous; she eventually engaged the fleet at point blank range. Are you really suggesting that a super star destroyer, a death star, thousands of TIE fighters, and dozens of Imperial Star Destroyers could only account for killing a few dozen Rebel fighters, and two mon cals? Obviously not... the Battle of Endor was epic for it's time, but it should be touched up. Not redone, but touched up. They should at least add a few quick CG-rendered mon cals in the background so that you can account for the rebel fleet being more than two large cruisers and some shadowy blobs in the back.
I know many details about the script while you do not.
Said with true arrogance; and it's irrelevent. If there were a billion ships in the battle in Episode III, that doesn't make that battle the quote-unquote "end-all" battle. The Star Wars saga is the life and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, as well as the rise and fall of the Empire. The Republic-Separationist battle maye be many things, but it is not the "end-all" battle of the series.
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 11th February 2004
Yes, I've read quite a few of their absurdly detailed technical commentaries. Good stuff if you want insanely over-analyzed analyses of ... a lot of things ...
Not always correct, and out of date (nothing from AotC), but still worth looking at. Though don't read too many at once, it'll get dull I bet. :D
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 11th February 2004
You're missing the point. The battle lasted for a very short amount of time, and if the Ewoks hadn't helped and the Emperor hadn't died then the Rebel fleet would have been wiped out. BTW something is wrong with that link. There would be absolutely no point in adding more ships to the Battle of Endor as it would simply make the screen even more cluttered than it is. The only solution would be to add in more scenes, and like I already said that would disrupt the flow of the editing.
Quote:Said with true arrogance; and it's irrelevent. If there were a billion ships in the battle in Episode III, that doesn't make that battle the quote-unquote "end-all" battle. The Star Wars saga is the life and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, as well as the rise and fall of the Empire. The Republic-Separationist battle maye be many things, but it is not the "end-all" battle of the series.
It's the end of the Clone Wars, the largest battle in the entire saga. It's the turning point for the rise of the Empire and the fall of the Republic, and the extermination of the Jedi. The Battle of Endor is the cleaning up of all that. So yes, it is the "end-all be-all" space battle of the saga.
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 11th February 2004
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/mcc.html
Quote:You're missing the point. The battle lasted for a very short amount of time, and if the Ewoks hadn't helped and the Emperor hadn't died then the Rebel fleet would have been wiped out. BTW something is wrong with that link. There would be absolutely no point in adding more ships to the Battle of Endor as it would simply make the screen even more cluttered than it is. The only solution would be to add in more scenes, and like I already said that would disrupt the flow of the editing.
True. As the Zahn Trilogy said, losing the Emperor was more than just psychological... the Emperor used Force powers to kind of control or influence his people and losing that made them confused and scared... so lots of the fleet fled though if they'd stayed together they still may have been able to get the Rebels...
And why add more scenes? Just represent the fleet as it actually was. In the warp before the battle, and in combat.. yes its hectic and a lot of it wouldn't need to be changed, or maybe just adding a big ship and some fighters in the background or something... if anyone could do it Lucas could. As Darunia said (on AIM), it's pretty dissapointing that they added the Max Rebo Band music song in Jabba's Place and didn't improve the Battle of Endor...
Quote:It's the end of the Clone Wars, the largest battle in the entire saga. It's the turning point for the rise of the Empire and the fall of the Republic, and the extermination of the Jedi. The Battle of Endor is the cleaning up of all that. So yes, it is the "end-all be-all" space battle of the saga.
It's a vital point, but the end-all? No the end is Endor... :D Biggest battle maybe... probably given how you are talking. But most important? We could argue about that one. :)
Star Wars DVDs? - Darunia - 12th February 2004
It's the end of the Clone Wars, the largest battle in the entire saga. It's the turning point for the rise of the Empire and the fall of the Republic, and the extermination of the Jedi. The Battle of Endor is the cleaning up of all that. So yes, it is the "end-all be-all" space battle of the saga.
I'm TELLING you (though ABF is right that it's debatable), Endor is the end. Endor ends the Empire. The "end-all" battle sees to the conclusion of the series, not the beginning. The Empire begins in Episode III. How can the "end-all" battle come before the Empire exists.
Also, more reason for bolstering Endor: It was an all-out effort with the entire Alliance fleet (or else they wouldn't have employed militarilly worthless transports and the Medical Frigate), so there MUST'VE been more than they showed. They should in turn add these. If you say adding scenes or enhancing the Battle of Endor would be stupid and ruin it, that I'll refer you to the Battle of Yavin. That's the samec case; only they added a grand introduction. Same could've--nay, SHOULD'VE--been for Endor. I'm not saying to add a whole half-hour alternative ending to RotJ; just make it more accountable. Lucas added whole sequences in the original trilogy, you're absurd claims that adding anything to Endor would cause the world to end is groundless. You just cannot accept that your diety, George Lucas, could improve on something.
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 12th February 2004
First of all, you are stupid, Darunia. Just wanted to get that out of the way. :D
Secondly, Yavin was the only scene at that point in time during ANH. The Battle of Endor was intercut with two different major scenes (Ewoks on ground and Luke with Vader & Palps), and the editing has a very specific timing and rhythm to it. Adding new scenes would disrupt that delicate rhythm, and adding more ships in the background would be pointless since there's almost no empty room, so they'd all have to be super tiny ships that no one would notice.
And the end of the Clone Wars is definitely as important as the Battle of Endor. Star Wars is about the death of Anakin, the birth of Vader, and finally the redemption of Anakin. The fall of Anakin is just as important as Vader's redemption. The opening Ep 3 battle kicks off a chain of events (I won't spoil it for you) that lead to Anakin falling to the Dark Side, and of course the rise of the Empire. It equals Endor in terms of importance, but will totally exceed it in terms of scope.
Star Wars DVDs? - Great Rumbler - 12th February 2004
That's about as pointless as a medical frigate in a space battle!
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 12th February 2004
What is?
Star Wars DVDs? - Great Rumbler - 12th February 2004
I don't know. I just wanted to say that.
Star Wars DVDs? - Darunia - 12th February 2004
All this crap about "rhythm"... you got your major in film making from Drexel? Or didn't you at all. I refuse to believe that Endor is the holy grail of film; that is, that is perfect as the lord George Lucas crafted it. It can and should've been improved. The space is not so busy that they couldn't add anything. If you'd look at the Endor snapshots from that site I sent you, you can see large voids everywhere, they were working with models that took time to build, not point & click graphics. They did the best they could 21 years ago. Today they could enhance it. You say they shouldn't because...because you are OB1 and RotJ is perfect as is.
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 13th February 2004
.... yeah. 
... RotJ is far from perfect, but the last half hour of the movie is as good as it could be. Adding more tiny ships wouldn't help much. Editing rhythm is extremely important, and if it were off then you'd definitely notice it. When it's perfect then you don't. When it's bad you do. Matrix Revolutions is one such example. That last battle in Zion was pretty darn cool, but it just dragged on forever and you soon forgot about what the other characters were doing. Bad rhythm.
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 13th February 2004
But it's not like you need to add lots of scenes to make the battle better...
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 13th February 2004
But then it wouldn't make a difference.
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 13th February 2004
It would make it better and more accurate! :)
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 13th February 2004
No it wouldn't.
Star Wars DVDs? - Darunia - 13th February 2004
Well this won't be resolved, so I say whats the use. New topic. On more common ground,
yes, the final battle in Zion was mind-numbingly long until all sense had fleeted and one was staring at a blank projection on the screen.
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 13th February 2004
Why wouldn't it? I don't get that... as Darunia says there is definitely space to put more fleet in the shots!
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 13th February 2004
There's very little space open, so it'd be pointless. If they had wanted more ships then there would have been more ships. They didn't have the same technical hurdles as they did with ANH.
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 13th February 2004
:shake:
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 13th February 2004
:nodding:
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 13th February 2004
Yes, because everything Lucas does is always perfect. No, it's good, but it could be better...
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 13th February 2004
It's perfect the way it is.
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 13th February 2004
Especially the part in the beginning where the massive Rebel fleet has like three cruisers? :S
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 13th February 2004
Those were the first leaving hyperspace.
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 13th February 2004
They could easily have added more! It wouldn't be hard!
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 13th February 2004
You're a geek, ABF.
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 13th February 2004
... that is bad? You are too!
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 13th February 2004
Yeah but you're the kind of geek geeks like me call a geek.
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 13th February 2004
No, we just disagree on this. You're a bigger geek because you looked at more info about the movie... :D
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 13th February 2004
What?
Star Wars DVDs? - A Black Falcon - 13th February 2004
Isn't it geeky to want to know all the details of the movie before it comes out?
Pot calling the kettle black. :)
Star Wars DVDs? - alien space marine - 13th February 2004
I agree with ABF!
The rest of you Shut the hell up! :starwars:
Guingan Jin and Mace windu should be put into the last part of episode VI with the ghosts of yoda,OB1,Anakin.
Finally Jar Jar Binks should be deleted out of episode 1-2 .
Star Wars DVDs? - OB1 - 13th February 2004