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+--- Thread: New episodes of... (/showthread.php?tid=794)
New episodes of... - Moiraine - 1st July 2003
Quote:Originally posted by OB1
Uh-oh, both Darunia and Moiraine are on my case now! That means trouble!
:evilha:
Please I wouldn't bother wasting my time.. I just think you are really annoying sometimes..
New episodes of... - Darunia - 1st July 2003
Oh, I forgot that ABF has a time machine, and actually did some OB1-Quality research, by going back in time and interviewing people. Do you know who you're preaching to, it's DARUNIA, I am THE war source. I'll admit that Germany isn't solely at fault for the war, and that they weren't evil and out for world domination (like in WWII). Still, the fact that you're trying to impress upon me a smartass reason for Germany's evilness is laughable.
-Germany's longing for conquest and an international empire had the Kaiser compete with Britain in a massive naval arms race. Both wanted to be supreme, and this pitted them against one another. Were the Kaiser not so thirsty for conquest and glory this wouldn't have happened.
-Germany attempted to diplomatically isolate France, and when the British and French reached a naval arms agreement (France would patrol the Mediterranean, and the British would withdraw from it), the sides were further entrenched for war. This was spurred by the open German aggression that both Britain and France (long, old enemies) acknowledged.
-Germany deliberately instigated war with THREE nations within a decade to obtain independence...(Austria, Denmark, France), the last of which was so incredibly shameful and evil that it caused a schism bewteen both sides for years to come. Had Germany not gone to such sinister means (INSTIGATING THREE WARS!) to unify, France and Germany wouldn't have been at each other's throats.
-Had Bismark und der kaiser not been so gung-ho and determined to become supreme in Europe, they wouldn't haved annexed Alsace and Lorraine, and wouldn't have strapped France with a $1 billion dollar indemnity...even though they'd OBVIOUSLY instigated the Franco-Prussian War.
-Germany attempted to force France out of Tunisia by steaming a dreadnought into the capital harbor, and expected Britain to support them...but when Britain allied with France, they grew sour. Again, Germany's faux pas diplomatic aggression further served to isolate it from the Allies.
-Again, the "blank check" to Austria-Hungary, which was the final straw.
-Germany developed and was the first to use poison gas (chemical warfare.)
-Germany committed atrocities against the Belgians while occupying most of that country; these turned the world opinion against them.
-Germany practiced unrestricted submarine warfare, and respected no banner of neutrality.
-Germany could've avoided the interlocking alliances by replying to the ultimatum Britain ordered in August...and it wasn't a demanding one, either; only requesting CEASE AND DESIST!
-The Zimmerman Telegram to Mexico proves their hostility ABROAD and desire to expand the war.
New episodes of... - OB1 - 1st July 2003
Quote:Originally posted by Moiraine
Please I wouldn't bother wasting my time.. I just think you are really annoying sometimes..
You started it, missy.
New episodes of... - Darunia - 1st July 2003
Au contraire, mon bon cul; you started it by getting on my ass over my not liking animé. Maybe I should get on YOUR ass about not liking Quest.
New episodes of... - OB1 - 1st July 2003
Hahaha, now that I would love to see!
And actually I wasn't the one bugging you about not liking anime, but little Moiraine here decided it would be fun to annoy me. It didn't work, "hun"!
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 1st July 2003
Quote:you started it by getting on my ass over my not liking animé.
Actually, it was me, ABF, and Dark Jaguar. OB1 barely said anything during that ordeal.
New episodes of... - OB1 - 1st July 2003
Poor, confused Darunia and Moiraine.
New episodes of... - Darunia - 1st July 2003
Well, since no one bothered to counter my WWI post, I suppose I won it?
Quote:Actually, it was me, ABF, and Dark Jaguar. OB1 barely said anything during that ordeal.
Big deal. Picking on Moiraine...the one who is probably the youngest, and the only active female, person in the entire forum. Don't you all feel like big, tough assholes.
New episodes of... - OB1 - 1st July 2003
When people annoy me, I annoy back. And I believe she's older than you, Darunia.
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 1st July 2003
I'll say something. First, noone else seems to know or care enough about history to want to participate.
How about we talk about Russia... in the last school year I took two semesters of Russian history. :) I haven't taken Western European since senior year over 2 years ago... freshman year in college the two history classes I took were Asian.
Quote:-Germany's longing for conquest and an international empire had the Kaiser compete with Britain in a massive naval arms race. Both wanted to be supreme, and this pitted them against one another. Were the Kaiser not so thirsty for conquest and glory this wouldn't have happened.
The Kaiser was an idiot. I said that already. And I also said that the British were just as culpable. Yes, that Kaiser was stupid and thought that he could just win the war without much trouble. But SO DID THE REST OF GOVERNMENTS OF THE WHOLE CONTINENT! The British and French were just as sure that the war would be an easy victory!
As for the rest... those are historical facts, mostly. And all of them did increase the tension in Europe to help bring it to that breaking point it hit in 1914. But you present just one part of the argument! There are just as many points that support why other nations were just as at fault for the problems! Sure, Germany was expansionist and agressive. I know that. Its obviously true. But that's no different from anyone else!
Everyone was militarizing. And various nations did get expansionist. In Napoleon's time it was France. In the late 1800s and early 1900s it was Germany. Sure. The only difference was the weapons being used, really...
Yes, they did do things that isolated them from Britain and France. That was pretty much inevitable too given the progression of society -- Britain and France as democracies while Germany was an empire... it naturally put them in league with the Austrians, Russians, and Turks... until of course the Russians and Germans antagonized eachother too much and they became enemies as well. But given their long history of hostility and border arguements that is hardly surprising...
Yes, the Germans were expansionist and pressed the issue. but the Allies pressed it too. Every time one side took a step, the other matched it... when one league was formed, so was another. And when one collapsed a new one quickly formed... this happened for so many decades (all through the later second half of the 1800s) that they really grew to believe their stories that these alliances would prevent war... after all, they had worked so far...
The Germans were expanding. But the other European nations were hardly sitting around doing nothing either! The Russians were quite expansionist in this timeframe as well... its their pressing to get more Balkan influence that led to the sparks that set off this whole mess... the Germans weren't the ones that started the war! Serbian terrorists did! Then Austria pressed Serbia to allow them to put Austrian troops in Serbian land to search for them... the Serbs promised to find them themselves but that wasn't good enough for Austria so they attacked. Sure, it was with Germany's tacit concent with that check... but it wasn't Germany that decided to start the war. They did want to fight, I think... or at least the Kaiser did. And he had the power...
But its hardly like Germany was to blame for the situation that brought the world to that point. You cannot just say "they were expansionist and imposed a harsh treaty on France in the Franco-Prussian War so they are guilty"! It just doesn't work that way! Yes that hurt, and helped escalate tensions, but blaming them for harsh peace treaties? Everyone did that! France and Britain did after WW1, for example...
Quote:-Germany developed and was the first to use poison gas (chemical warfare.)
Germany developed poison gas? So did everyone else! I don't think that any one side deserves special blame for THAT terror.
Quote:-Germany practiced unrestricted submarine warfare, and respected no banner of neutrality.
Submarine warfare... yes, they did fight unrestricted submarine warfare. But if you're such a military historian you'd know that they had absolutely no choice. Their surface fleet was stuck in the Baltic Sea by the British Fleet... all they had in the Atlantic were the subs. And subs CANNOT GIVE WARNING AND BE EFFECTIVE FIGHTING VESSELS! They tried that, but it failed miserably so they were forced to use the unrestricted warfare... they didn't want to, because they knew that it'd probably drag the US into the war in short notice, but they had to because they needed to sink those transport ships... and that was the only way to do it. They had no choice if they wanted a chance in the war.
Quote:-Germany could've avoided the interlocking alliances by replying to the ultimatum Britain ordered in August...and it wasn't a demanding one, either; only requesting CEASE AND DESIST!
As for alliances... are you honestly saying that you think they'd just drop their alliance at that point? Why would they do that? Just like the Allies they were sure that it was the alliance that would keep war away, since no one wanted a continent-wide crisis...
And besides, they'd naturally think that its a case of 'okay I'll disarm, but you go first'... where no one actually will because they are too suspicious of the other side.
No, that is too unrealistic a expectation to blame them for not taking.
Quote:-The Zimmerman Telegram to Mexico proves their hostility ABROAD and desire to expand the war.
Given that by that point the US was supporting Britain pretty strongly, I can't blame them much... especially once we factor in the possibility that it was a fake written by British intelligence to try to get the US into the war quicker. That's a possibility. after all... the wire lines went through England...
Quote:-Germany committed atrocities against the Belgians while occupying most of that country; these turned the world opinion against them.
Very minor isolated incidents blown up dramatically by the Allied propaganda corps. Worked brilliantly, even decades after we know the truth, I see.
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 1st July 2003
Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
Picking on Moiraine...the one who is probably the youngest, and the only active female, person in the entire forum. Don't you all feel like big, tough assholes.
OB1 was the only one who said anything to Moiraine...
New episodes of... - OB1 - 1st July 2003
She started it.
New episodes of... - Moiraine - 2nd July 2003
Quote:Originally posted by OB1
She started it.
Now that is mature...
New episodes of... - OB1 - 2nd July 2003
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 2nd July 2003
Bananarama!!
New episodes of... - Darunia - 3rd July 2003
-Germany's longing for conquest and an international empire had the Kaiser compete with Britain in a massive naval arms race. Both wanted to be supreme, and this pitted them against one another. Were the Kaiser not so thirsty for conquest and glory this wouldn't have happened.
Quote:The Kaiser was an idiot. I said that already. And I also said that the British were just as culpable. Yes, that Kaiser was stupid and thought that he could just win the war without much trouble. But SO DID THE REST OF GOVERNMENTS OF THE WHOLE CONTINENT! The British and French were just as sure that the war would be an easy victory!
What...does that have to do with what I just said? That's a completely different thought from the paragraph I wrote. Yea, they all were confident of victory; but what difference does that mean...?
Quote:As for the rest... those are historical facts, mostly. And all of them did increase the tension in Europe to help bring it to that breaking point it hit in 1914. But you present just one part of the argument! There are just as many points that support why other nations were just as at fault for the problems! Sure, Germany was expansionist and agressive. I know that. Its obviously true. But that's no different from anyone else!
Wrong. Are you just taking up a countering position to me for the hell of it...? Did you ever stop and consider that maybe I'm right? Everyone was aggressive, but Germany above all...they were the ones who were driving to catch up to everyone else in the Imperial age.
Quote:Everyone was militarizing. And various nations did get expansionist. In Napoleon's time it was France. In the late 1800s and early 1900s it was Germany. Sure. The only difference was the weapons being used, really...
You're absolutely right. It was France 1800-1815... and Germany in World War I. I never said France hadn't been aggressive; but YOU refused to admite that Germany was more at fault than anyone else for the war.
Quote:Yes, they did do things that isolated them from Britain and France. That was pretty much inevitable too given the progression of society -- Britain and France as democracies while Germany was an empire... it naturally put them in league with the Austrians, Russians, and Turks... until of course the Russians and Germans antagonized eachother too much and they became enemies as well. But given their long history of hostility and border arguements that is hardly surprising...
You're overanalyzing... it wasn't a war between different kinds of governments, it was a war between two rival camps of Europe. Whatever political government they had was was irrelevant.
Quote:Yes, the Germans were expansionist and pressed the issue. but the Allies pressed it too. Every time one side took a step, the other matched it... when one league was formed, so was another. And when one collapsed a new one quickly formed... this happened for so many decades (all through the later second half of the 1800s) that they really grew to believe their stories that these alliances would prevent war... after all, they had worked so far...
You really believe this don't you. They did take counter steps against one another, but Germany initialized it by unstabling the power balance in 1871, dishonoring France, and then trying to become a respectable power. They went about it the wrong way. They could've unified without starting three wars and making powerful enemies.
Quote:The Germans were expanding. But the other European nations were hardly sitting around doing nothing either! The Russians were quite expansionist in this timeframe as well... its their pressing to get more Balkan influence that led to the sparks that set off this whole mess...
I blame it more on the Austrian insertion into Serbia myself. If they hadn't been butting into Serbia and trying to annex it to begin with, their heir-apparent wouldn't have been assassinated.
Quote:the Germans weren't the ones that started the war! Serbian terrorists did!
No...Austria started the war by invading Serbia did. Serbia terrorists...no, more like a freedom fighter, trying to keep his country free of Austro-Hungarian tyranny.
Quote:Then Austria pressed Serbia to allow them to put Austrian troops in Serbian land to search for them... the Serbs promised to find them themselves but that wasn't good enough for Austria so they attacked. Sure, it was with Germany's tacit concent with that check... but it wasn't Germany that decided to start the war. They did want to fight, I think... or at least the Kaiser did. And he had the power...
Well, at least you admitted that it was Austria who did start the war; but only with the infamous "blank check". 'Sides, Austria is supremely incompetent in all warfare, going back centuries...they wouldn't have been a threat. Even at WWI, the Austrians were pushed out of Serbia by the tiny, hapless Serbian Army in just weeks. Without Germany, the war would've died quickly.
Quote:But its hardly like Germany was to blame for the situation that brought the world to that point. You cannot just say "they were expansionist and imposed a harsh treaty on France in the Franco-Prussian War so they are guilty"! It just doesn't work that way! Yes that hurt, and helped escalate tensions, but blaming them for harsh peace treaties? Everyone did that! France and Britain did after WW1, for example...
They did it to get back at Germany...it kept going back and forth, BUT IT STARTED IN 1871! Neither Britain nor France nor Germany had any aggression between one another since 1815...but when your buddy Bismark came into power, he unsettled everything, and set the course for war!
Quote:Germany developed poison gas? So did everyone else! I don't think that any one side deserves special blame for THAT terror.
...WHAT!? They single-handedly developed it, and were the first to use it in battle! They DO get credit for it! How can you even deny that!
Quote:Submarine warfare... yes, they did fight unrestricted submarine warfare. But if you're such a military historian you'd know that they had absolutely no choice. Their surface fleet was stuck in the Baltic Sea by the British Fleet... all they had in the Atlantic were the subs. And subs CANNOT GIVE WARNING AND BE EFFECTIVE FIGHTING VESSELS! They tried that, but it failed miserably so they were forced to use the unrestricted warfare... they didn't want to, because they knew that it'd probably drag the US into the war in short notice, but they had to because they needed to sink those transport ships... and that was the only way to do it. They had no choice if they wanted a chance in the war.
The end justifies the means? NO! Their surface fleet was on par with Britain's; don't make it sound like they were blockaded at Dresden! They had access to the ocean; and they did eventuall clash with the British fleet. "They had no choice"...are you for real!? That's like saying a murder who mugs and robs an old lady has no choice, because he needed the money...and that makes it acceptable.
Quote:As for alliances... are you honestly saying that you think they'd just drop their alliance at that point? Why would they do that? Just like the Allies they were sure that it was the alliance that would keep war away, since no one wanted a continent-wide crisis...
Another non sequitur. I didn't say that they had to drop their alliance; their alliance, first of all, did NOT oblige them to defend Austria against Serbia. They did that on their own. They opted to hop into the war.
Quote:Given that by that point the US was supporting Britain pretty strongly, I can't blame them much... especially once we factor in the possibility that it was a fake written by British intelligence to try to get the US into the war quicker. That's a possibility. after all... the wire lines went through England...
...do I even need to counter that...it's OK for Germany to secret an alliance with Mexico to openly attack the US... you'r...you're just CRAZY!
Quote:Very minor isolated incidents blown up dramatically by the Allied propaganda corps. Worked brilliantly, even decades after we know the truth, I see.
Very minor...? Allied propaganda...? What ARE you talking about! Was the holocaust "very minor" and "allied propaganda" too? The FACT is that the Belgians were mistreated by the Germans, who committed atrocities there. It is FACT!
Was your grandmother a nazi or something....? Why are you so stubbornly defending Germany; you can't win this anyway...it's common knowledge that Germany used to be an aggressive trouble maker.
New episodes of... - Darunia - 3rd July 2003
Quote:When people annoy me, I annoy back. And I believe she's older than you, Darunia.
Wow that's damn funny, because whereas I am turning 19 in little more than two months, she is only 17. Normally, that'd mean you are wrong, but since you are OB1 you'll say something like:
"Oh, I didnt mean it like that...I meant types of age, not her actual age per se... so you see, I'm right, and you're just embarassing yourself, Darunia.
"
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 3rd July 2003
Quote:but since you are OB1 you'll say something like:
"Oh, I didnt mean it like that...I meant types of age, not her actual age per se... so you see, I'm right, and you're just embarassing yourself, Darunia.
Quote:Why are we putting words in Darunia's mouth to embarass him...? .... So basically, that all boils down to you flamboyantly writing trash about me
Hmmm....
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 3rd July 2003
Ack, second half of the 19th century European politics... I can't remember the details of the Franco-Prussian war, really... I remember the Crimean War much better though, given how we covered that last year in school (as opposed to over 2 1/2 years since I've had Western European history).
Quote:What...does that have to do with what I just said? That's a completely different thought from the paragraph I wrote. Yea, they all were confident of victory; but what difference does that mean...?
That while they were vital to setting off the war no one is without blame, and they had no clue what they were getting into...
Quote:Wrong. Are you just taking up a countering position to me for the hell of it...? Did you ever stop and consider that maybe I'm right? Everyone was aggressive, but Germany above all...they were the ones who were driving to catch up to everyone else in the Imperial age.
Yes, of course they were trying to catch up. They had finally gotten their nation together for the first time and didn't want to be left behind everyone else...
Quote:You're overanalyzing... it wasn't a war between different kinds of governments, it was a war between two rival camps of Europe. Whatever political government they had was was irrelevant.
Then why did the Western Allies say that they were protecting Democracy? Just for propaganda value while they supported Czarist Russia?
No, I think that differences in political structure did matter. Not as an absolute defining line, obviously, but they did matter...
Quote:You really believe this don't you. They did take counter steps against one another, but Germany initialized it by unstabling the power balance in 1871, dishonoring France, and then trying to become a respectable power. They went about it the wrong way. They could've unified without starting three wars and making powerful enemies.
What, you expect the major European powers to all agree on peace in that era? That's a bit ... unrealistic ...
Yes, Germany was pressing outwards... like others before it... but you make it sound like it is they alone who are responsible for all of it. That is just simply false... alliances were bound to form given the political situation of the time, and with that comes some kind of eventual confrontation... so the sides weren't certain but I don't see how they could have completely avoided the two World Wars.
Quote:I blame it more on the Austrian insertion into Serbia myself. If they hadn't been butting into Serbia and trying to annex it to begin with, their heir-apparent wouldn't have been assassinated.
But the Serbians wouldn't have been agitating and standing up to Austria if they hadn't had Russia there at their back with a close alliance, that's for sure!
Quote:You really believe this don't you. They did take counter steps against one another, but Germany initialized it by unstabling the power balance in 1871, dishonoring France, and then trying to become a respectable power. They went about it the wrong way. They could've unified without starting three wars and making powerful enemies.
You think they could unite without making enemies? Really? Not with the way they were, I doubt it... sure they didn't have to do it as they did, but confilict was inevitable... the French and Germans weren't exactly friends before that point...
Quote:Well, at least you admitted that it was Austria who did start the war; but only with the infamous "blank check". 'Sides, Austria is supremely incompetent in all warfare, going back centuries...they wouldn't have been a threat. Even at WWI, the Austrians were pushed out of Serbia by the tiny, hapless Serbian Army in just weeks. Without Germany, the war would've died quickly.
Absolutely Austria was incompetent. Its a big reason why the war happened of course... Austria just wasn't competent enough to fight Serbia alone so all the alliances started being called... and at that point Europe was a gas-filled room just waiting for a match to blow it up.
And both sides are responsible for it getting to that situation. Yes, the Germans pressed... but so did the others back just as hard...
Oh, and they weren't exactly constantly warmongering... not like Napoleon's France, which burned itsself out in just a few decades...
Quote:Very minor...? Allied propaganda...? What ARE you talking about! Was the holocaust "very minor" and "allied propaganda" too? The FACT is that the Belgians were mistreated by the Germans, who committed atrocities there. It is FACT!
Somewhat, but the level of mistreatment wasn't even REMOTELY close to the levels that the Allied propaganda portrayed. That is a FACT too.
Quote:...do I even need to counter that...it's OK for Germany to secret an alliance with Mexico to openly attack the US... you'r...you're just CRAZY!
I didn't say its okay... I said it might be fake. :)
The British would have lots of reasons to want a message like that to be intercepted, after all...
If it is real it is bad... not unexpected given the way America was clearly turning at that point, but bad.
Quote:The end justifies the means? NO! Their surface fleet was on par with Britain's; don't make it sound like they were blockaded at Dresden! They had access to the ocean; and they did eventuall clash with the British fleet. "They had no choice"...are you for real!? That's like saying a murder who mugs and robs an old lady has no choice, because he needed the money...and that makes it acceptable.
The British Surface Fleet was equal to the German one, but the German one was stuck. The British could easily block them from getting out... meaning that exactly as I said U-Boats were their only weapon against the convoys that they needed desperately to sink to hurt Britain.
Quote:...WHAT!? They single-handedly developed it, and were the first to use it in battle! They DO get credit for it! How can you even deny that!
And the much more moral allies of course refused to use it too?
Quote:Another non sequitur. I didn't say that they had to drop their alliance; their alliance, first of all, did NOT oblige them to defend Austria against Serbia. They did that on their own. They opted to hop into the war.
First, no one had a clue that their actions would lead to a major world war. They just reacted to the events...
Second, a world war at that point was inevitable -- the two armed camps hated eachother and were looking for any excuse they could find to fight. Serbia just provided that excuse.
Is that atmosphere partly Germany's fault? Of course! But are they the sole group responsible? NO WAY! Not even close!
New episodes of... - Darunia - 4th July 2003
Great Rumbler = OBI Jr.
Ack, second half of the 19th century European politics... I can't remember the details of the Franco-Prussian war, really... I remember the Crimean War much better though, given how we covered that last year in school (as opposed to over 2 1/2 years since I've had Western European history).
Well, that helps my side of the argument... a signed confession that you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Yes, of course they were trying to catch up. They had finally gotten their nation together for the first time and didn't want to be left behind everyone else...
...so you're saying that they are free to illegitimately use any means they deam fit to compete with the rest of Europe? If so, then you also justify Nazi Germany. Zeig heil, herr ABF!
Then why did the Western Allies say that they were protecting Democracy? Just for propaganda value while they supported Czarist Russia?
Because in calling it a war for democracy, it'd appeal for more democracies to enter the course of the war. It was common logic, and a good sound strategy. The allies WERE mostly democracies, but they weren't fighting to make the WORLD a giant democracy.
What, you expect the major European powers to all agree on peace in that era? That's a bit ... unrealistic ...
Yes it happened again and again. France and Germany almost went to war several times between 1871 and 1914, but the Europenean community stepped in. It's not at all unrealistic at this time...the war-like evil Europe seemed to die after Napoleon.
Yes, Germany was pressing outwards... like others before it... but you make it sound like it is they alone who are responsible for all of it. That is just simply false... alliances were bound to form given the political situation of the time, and with that comes some kind of eventual confrontation... so the sides weren't certain but I don't see how they could have completely avoided the two World Wars.
It takes two to fight, and Germany was the instigator. Italy unified without declaring an arbitrary war on France. Germany could've too...Bismarck was a completely miserable person, and is responisble for BOTH world wars (and I dare say even the rise of of communism.)
But the Serbians wouldn't have been agitating and standing up to Austria if they hadn't had Russia there at their back with a close alliance, that's for sure!
What is wrong with you...? That's like blaming the American Revolution on France because "the Americans wouldn't have been agitating and standing up to Britain is they hadn't had France there at their back with a close alliance, that's for sure!" THE AUSTRIANS WERE THE BAD GUYS! Don't blame Russia for helping Serbia! They did the right thing, for once.
You think they could unite without making enemies? Really?
Garibaldi and Italy did it.
Not with the way they were, I doubt it... sure they didn't have to do it as they did, but confilict was inevitable... the French and Germans weren't exactly friends before that point...
Neither were Britain and France...they'd been constant enemies for 700 years, and were EASILY less trusting of one another than France and Germany. Your argument is invalid...if Germany could drive those two pitch nemesis' into one another's arms, they were doing something wrong.
Absolutely Austria was incompetent. Its a big reason why the war happened of course... Austria just wasn't competent enough to fight Serbia alone so all the alliances started being called... and at that point Europe was a gas-filled room just waiting for a match to blow it up.
Alright, you admit I was right with that one.
Oh, and they weren't exactly constantly warmongering... not like Napoleon's France, which burned itsself out in just a few decades...
Burnt itself out in just a few decades...? Napoleonic France occupied more of Europe, and lasted 23 years (1792-1815). Your Third Reich lasted, what, a decade? The Second Reich lasted abour forty years. Germany wasn't WARMONGERING!? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU, ARE YOU NOT GETTING THIS! THEY DIRECTLY INSTIGATED THREE FUCKING WARS! One with Austria, Denmark, and France! THEY DELIBERATELY STARTED THREE WARS!! Not warmongering my ass!
Somewhat, but the level of mistreatment wasn't even REMOTELY close to the levels that the Allied propaganda portrayed. That is a FACT too.
No it is NOT a fact. You're just trying to convince me that it is, and I do not agree. The allies didn't blow it out of proportion; many books of today (including one I got at BJ's last year) shows photos and has a paragraph on German cruelty in Belgium.
I didn't say its okay... I said it might be fake.
Might be fake...? Well, it ISN'T...they admitted to it...you're not really much of a buff on that WWI stuff are you.
If it is real it is bad... not unexpected given the way America was clearly turning at that point, but bad.
Again, you're justifying the unjustifiable.
The British Surface Fleet was equal to the German one, but the German one was stuck. The British could easily block them from getting out... meaning that exactly as I said U-Boats were their only weapon against the convoys that they needed desperately to sink to hurt Britain.
Then why didn't they use their unterseeboots to torpedo the British fleet, instead of taking the cowardly, shameful means of sinking civilian transports?
And the much more moral allies of course refused to use it too?
IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY USED IT OR NOT, THE GERMANS INVENTED, TESTED, AND WERE THE FIRST TO USE IT!
First, no one had a clue that their actions would lead to a major world war. They just reacted to the events...
Point being?
Second, a world war at that point was inevitable -- the two armed camps hated eachother and were looking for any excuse they could find to fight. Serbia just provided that excuse.
Yes, it was inevitable---due to German aggression. My point exactly. Thank you for conceding to me.
Is that atmosphere partly Germany's fault? Of course! But are they the sole group responsible? NO WAY! Not even close!
All I'm asking of you is that you admit that they were MORE responsible (not totally) than any other country for the inevitable slope to WWI.
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 4th July 2003
Quote:Great Rumbler = OBI Jr.
That's the only comment you can come up with?
Is that supposed to be an insult? OB1 and I are very different, but do we share some of the same views.
New episodes of... - OB1 - 4th July 2003
Come over here, Junior! Let's go put some steaks on the grill and have ourselves a barbecue!
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 4th July 2003
Yeah, Dad! You're the greatest!
New episodes of... - OB1 - 4th July 2003
And you're the best son a dad could ever ask for.
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 4th July 2003
You're the best dad in the WHOLE world!
New episodes of... - OB1 - 4th July 2003
I love you too, son. Now go tell your sister Darunia to help us with the grill. She needs some fresh air.
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 4th July 2003
Hahahaha, this almost too much even for TC! :D
New episodes of... - OB1 - 4th July 2003
Aqua Teen signatures assemble!
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 4th July 2003
Why you dance so much? Is it because deep inside you know that you're a fraud, that you're a lie, that you're a sham? You know why you came in that box, right? It's because someone put you in there...to die. You don't even know who you are, do you? Look at you. You're a clown, you're a joke.
New episodes of... - Darunia - 4th July 2003
*FBI storms into the backyard, carrying M-16s*
FBI Agent: Is this him, son?
Great Rumbler: Yea, he touched my winkie!
OB1: What?! You little shit, I'll get you for this!!
*FBI tackle and cuff OB1; tear him away kicking and screaming*
FBI Agent: Don't worry son, where your father is going, HE'LL be on the receiving end!
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 5th July 2003
Silly, Darunia. :p
New episodes of... - OB1 - 5th July 2003
What scares me most is that this is probably one of Darunia's real fantasies.
New episodes of... - Darunia - 5th July 2003
Yes, OB1, all of my fantasies involve you being butt raped in prison. Don't flatter yourself.
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 5th July 2003
I wonder who's on the giving end...
New episodes of... - OB1 - 5th July 2003
New episodes of... - Darunia - 5th July 2003
Oh OB1 you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind, hey OB1! Hey OB1!
(Sung to the lyrics Hey Mickey.)
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 6th July 2003
This thread has really degenerated...
New episodes of... - Darunia - 6th July 2003
lol. That's un understatement.