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+--- Thread: New episodes of... (/showthread.php?tid=794)
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 27th June 2003
Quote:it keeps them from seeing things that may startle them and cause them to bolt
Hahahaha! :D
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 27th June 2003
Yeah, I thought it was a very appropriate analogy too. :)
You know what I'm talking about, right? At least I think they are called blinkers... not absolutely sure.
New episodes of... - OB1 - 27th June 2003
Quote:Originally posted by Great Rumbler
Wha...WHAT?! You don't know who Miyazaki is?! I can't believe it!! Miyazaki is easily one of best anime directors EVER! He directed Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away, Kiki's Delivery Service, Castle in the Sky, My Neighbor Totoro [which I still haven't seen], and the upcoming Howl's Moving Castle [based on the book]. All of which are great movies.
Correction: Hayao Miyazaki is one of the greaters movie directors, period. Cartoon or live-action, it doesn't matter. He's a terrific storyteller, he has an incredible imagination that translates perfectly onto the screen, and his cinematography is up there with the best.
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 27th June 2003
Can't disagree there. His movies are great...
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 27th June 2003
ABF: They're called "blinders", at least that's the what I've always heard them called.
Quote:Correction: Hayao Miyazaki is one of the greaters movie directors, period. Cartoon or live-action, it doesn't matter. He's a terrific storyteller, he has an incredible imagination that translates perfectly onto the screen, and his cinematography is up there with the best.
Right.
New episodes of... - Darunia - 27th June 2003
You don't like it's peoples? The only possible way to take that is in a racist tone!
...point being...? Am I trying to hide that? Just becuase you live in a peachy-lubby world of PC goodness and your standards are hippie-quality harmony doesn't mean mine are. I don't HATE anyone really...not the Japanese, not the Mexicans, not the Germans...but I do harbor grudges against some nationalities. Do I say Japs, and Spicks...? Yes. Do I dislike their culture and history...? Yes; based on very real historical evidence. DO I HATE THEM? Eh; no. I'm not trying to defend myself (nor should I even have to), but I'm just establishing a base to stand on.
if you have a problem with the war, may I remind you that all the people you have a problem with, the fighters, are retired or dead by now, and NOT the current generation that currently rules Japan.
Forgive and forget? Oh; sure...that's find and dandy. Oh wait, no it's not...who started WWII, inwhich 50 million (that's 50,000,000!) people were killed...? Germany and Japan. Maybe you can shrug that off...but I can't so easily dismiss that as being ancient history. Those people were very real, and many of them would still be alive today, and if not, then their descendants would be.
How can you possibly judge descendents based on the actions of their grandparents?
Like father like son. I don't hate ANY single nationality(that's ignorant and archaic); but as I mentioned I have...hesitations about some. An example would be...Iraq. Some Iraqis don't like us. Do all of them WANT to kill us? No. But for that exception, should I like Iraqis?
That's like saying "well, the murderer killed himself, but we have to punish someone, so let's kill the guy who was standing next to him in a movie line one time". They are SEPERATE PEOPLE you know.
Not quite the same thing...yet when a 12 year old steals his mother's car and runs over and kills someone, who gets in trouble, the parents who were ignorant or the 12 year old?
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 27th June 2003
Blinders, right.
Quote:...point being...? Am I trying to hide that? Just becuase you live in a peachy-lubby world of PC goodness and your standards are hippie-quality harmony doesn't mean mine are. I don't HATE anyone really...not the Japanese, not the Mexicans, not the Germans...but I do harbor grudges against some nationalities. Do I say Japs, and Spicks...? Yes. Do I dislike their culture and history...? Yes; based on very real historical evidence. DO I HATE THEM? Eh; no. I'm not trying to defend myself (nor should I even have to), but I'm just establishing a base to stand on.
As for Darunia... are you REALLY that stupid? I guess so... its just so sad to se someone who has convinced themselves that strong racism isn't just okay, its a good thing. Its so sad... and the way you say what you say offhand like "yeah I do that but it doesn't mean I hate them" is awful and idiotic.
You cannot be the way you say you are and not hate them. Its impossible.
I'd feel sorry for you if I wasn't thinking how awful your views are. It kind of makes feeling sorry for you impossible... you're just a misinformed idiot convincing himself that his absurd views are okay.
Quote:Forgive and forget? Oh; sure...that's find and dandy. Oh wait, no it's not...who started WWII, inwhich 50 million (that's 50,000,000!) people were killed...? Germany and Japan. Maybe you can shrug that off...but I can't so easily dismiss that as being ancient history. Those people were very real, and many of them would still be alive today, and if not, then their descendants would be.
Ah, keep grudges forever. Great idea! Look where it got other people that do that!
How about the Slavs? Hundreds and hundreds of years of ethnic warfare is fine, right? I mean, who cares that the offences date back to the 1200s... you can never forgive! We should still be mad at them and should still be trying to kill them 500 years from now! I see the error of my ways now!
It also got the American Indians and Africans pretty far during the colonial days, huh?
You don't completely forgive the people responsible for what happened, but you have to recognize the circumstances and you can't blame the generations after them for anything.
And there are a lot of mitigating circumstances. In both of those socities, the government had total control. The people really didn't know... in Japan the government had the faith of the people and used that to do all kinds of things. It really shows what happens when the people believe absolutely in what they are told... its a scary thing for us, sure, but we can't just say 'its different so its bad'. We can say 'what they did is bad', but not 'they are evil because they did what they were trained from birth to do'... that'd be absurd...
As for Germany, it was pretty similar -- people just not ready for democracy, a major depression, a group blaming someone for their ills... it makes sense that the Germans would listen!
Of course, before the Depression no one did. In their first election the Nazis failed miserably. It was only the Great Depression that brought them to power... isn't it funny, the fact that our burst economic bubble is directly responsible for the European part of World War II?
Look. There are lots of people you can blame for all of this... some more guilty than others, sure. But there are lots to blame... and you are just taking it way, way too far. It was the result of a lot of circumstances beyond most anyone's control. Societies listened to people they shouldn't have, but in their situation I can't blame them much...
Quote:Like father like son. I don't hate ANY single nationality(that's ignorant and archaic); but as I mentioned I have...hesitations about some. An example would be...Iraq. Some Iraqis don't like us. Do all of them WANT to kill us? No. But for that exception, should I like Iraqis?
I don't hate them, I just insult them,, make fun of them, use derrogatory terms for them, refuse to try to understand the truth, and spew hate for their beliefs! That's not so bad!
Quote:Not quite the same thing...yet when a 12 year old steals his mother's car and runs over and kills someone, who gets in trouble, the parents who were ignorant or the 12 year old?
Yes, actually, it is the same thing.
Your example, on the other hand, makes no sense.
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 27th June 2003
There's so many things wrong with Darunia's post that I won't bother trying to type up a good reply...Okay, actually, on second though, I will.
Quote:but I do harbor grudges against some nationalities. Do I say Japs, and Spicks...? Yes. Do I dislike their culture and history...? Yes; based on very real historical evidence.
And yet your money goes to that selfsame nation?
Quote:then their descendants would be.
Ah, of course. Their parents helped the Axis fight so they must be evil to! It's so "lomgical"!
Quote:Some Iraqis don't like us. Do all of them WANT to kill us? No. But for that exception, should I like Iraqis?
Ah yes, condemn the whole race because of a few bad eggs. Darunia once again shows off his amazing "lomgic".
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 27th June 2003
I'd just pass it off as stupid if I didn't know that thinking that way isn't just dumb, it really is harmful to all of society. So I can't just excuse it as dumb.
New episodes of... - OB1 - 27th June 2003
So... does Darunia hate all Christians because of the Crusades? All Europeans because of the slave trade? What an idiot.
New episodes of... - Darunia - 27th June 2003
Ugh. Rather than counter THAT I'll end this before it turns into a race war. Jesus; all I said was I don't care for that region of the world with a wink-smile, and the Politically Correct Gestappo rape me over it.
New episodes of... - OB1 - 27th June 2003
You're a bigot, Darunia. Nobody likes a bigot.
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 27th June 2003
Darunia, you deserve every word of that and a hundred times more. You are an idiot, and spreading views like that is bad for the nation and the world.
New episodes of... - Dark Jaguar - 27th June 2003
Well, I hate his beliefs, but not the 1 inch tall goron. You know, "hate the sin, not the sinner" and all that rot.
Darunia, I'm sure when you said that, it seemed logical to you, but you seem to miss the point. You seem to be confusing the people you hate for the people who actually did it. You say "Forgive and forget?", but WOW did you miss the point!
Listen closely, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PEOPLE WHO FOUGHT IN WORLD WAR 2 AT ALL! I'm not asking you to forgive THOSE people at all! They did something, that's not the issue! The issue is you are hating the DESCENDENTS for the actions of their elders! Your defense to THAT is "like father like son" which has to be the most trivial and stupid use of that phrase I've yet seen. Like father like son? For the love of...
And then you point out EXACTLY why you are wrong in your own defense. You say "sure not ALL arabs think like that, but is that any reason to like them?". First off, we are actually asking you to consider them just like any other people, an unknown, not to out and out like them (unless like is the standard feeling you have for humans in general, which tends to be my policy, though I don't live up to it as often as I'd like). Second off, YES, since not ALL of them are like that, that is EXACTLY why you should think of them all as humans, except for an unnamed and unspecific statement of "except the terrorists". I know that you have no idea which one is which, and that means there's nothing you can do except treat them all innocent until prooven guilty, and that scares you because what if you accidently treated the terrorists among them like normal people and they kill everyone or something. But welcome to the world where people try to be all nice-like! Instead of creating a false sense of security by thinking you will eliminate the threat of befriending a terrorist if you hate all the people from those terrorist's region of origin, accept that there's no way to really know what's what and you are always going to be in unknown danger and not know who your real friends and enemies are, and step into the light of reality. Accept that when it comes to human relationships, it's all blind faith, and it's a beautiful thing when someone trusts you, and despite not really knowing, they "know".
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 27th June 2003
Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
Ugh. Rather than counter THAT I'll end this before it turns into a race war. Jesus; all I said was I don't care for that region of the world with a wink-smile, and the Politically Correct Gestappo rape me over it.
Oh please, don't act like your the victim in all this, especially after your previous post.
Great post, btw, DJ.
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 27th June 2003
What, my post on that subject isn't good enough? Well I'll expand on it then.
Though I do focus on history, as you'd expect. :)
Get ready, this is REALLY long.
First, this really does continue the history segment I wrote in my previous post. So read that first. Its the second quote-resoponse there.
You can hate what the people did, sure... that's fine! Many of them did bad things! But hating the people themselves as a whole? NO. They don't deserve that. The ones that did evil things... yeah, probably. The ones that killed people knowingly and with no concern for their own beliefs... absolutely. But the ones that just followed orders, and believed what they were told? You can't really hate them for being misled and deluded by their authority figures, especially in societies that teach obedience to the chain of power and command... that isn't evil, just doing what they thought was the right thing. You do have to consider the historical record and all the factors involved... it goes a long, long way to explaining what happened. Once you do that you see why they did as they did... and how they could have seen it to be okay. It doesn't make it right, but it is very informative and helps to understand and forgive in the end... but you'd never do even the first step of that. You don't want the truth, just your hate.
Would you like a longer explanation now of the WWII part here? I've said a lot above here and in my last post, but I could go into more detail...
As for the Arabs... tricky issue. The whole situation is truly awful... the region is turning against us, we against them... they hate us more every day and we them. Neither side really understands the other, and understanding is the baseline for peace and forgiveness... so things just get progressively worse and worse.
What do I think... I think that the terrorists are obviously evil. They should be stopped. However, just killing terrorists will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM. Nothing. Because it'll get rid of them for a little while, but they will come back. Just like poisoning ants in your house -- they'll be back. Why? Because killing solves nothing. All it does is lead to death... and death to more death. We will never solve our problems in the middle east by killing. So what can we do? We can try to understand... and then try to solve the problems. They are so deep and sticky that I don't see a real solution anytime soon, but we must try.
Now you say that we solved World War II with no understanding for years afterwards... true. But that was fundamentally different in every way... for one we put MASSIVE numbers of troops into the nations -- hundreds and hundreds of thousands. And they stayed there for over a decade. Also, in both of those cases we also removed the things that had been causing the trouble during the war, making restitution and healing the wounds of war possible. It just won't work that way in the Middle East.
The core of the problem of course is Israel. The creation of that state angred the whole Arab world immensely, as you'd expect. When it was created we instantly created friction between the West and the Middle East. That friction hasn't gone away. It has gotten worse, obviously. They still hate us, and more than ever... and we cause more problems every day. Especially with this administration. And there really is no solution that can work quickly.
On one side are the Arabs. They are all behind the Palestinians... directly or obtrusely, they support them. That is obvious when you look at the facts. From day one they kept Palestinians in camps... they knew this would be very long term, so why did they do that? The answer is simple: So that they could keep this group together and angry at Israel. And of course it worked brilliantly, because now we have a huge group outside of Israel very angry and still considering Israel not just their land, but their land they must have NOW. The Arab nations could have avoided that problem if they had wished, but they didn't wish to so we still have it. And that is of course not counting the ones paying familes of suicide bombers, or the ones giving state support to terrorist groups or doing absolutely nothing to stop terror groups in their nations. But the Arabs are mad and that is an unrealistic goal... they will not change because the leadership, population, and religious leaders all agree on the issue. When you have such unaminity its tough to fight...
Now, I'm not saying that all Arabs hate us. That is obviously not true. But it is true that the Arab leaders just aren't doing much of anything beyond the absolute minimum to fix the problem, both because of personal belief and because they know that if they do much they will make important parts of their population extremely angry and might just go the way of Sadat... and they don't want that. So they give tactit support to the Palestinians... and when they have the government and their religious leaders -- who in Muslim society have an incredible amount of influence -- at the very least the population will support the Palestinians. It doesn't mean hating America, of course... but it does lead to skepticism, especially as we support Israel more and more... but we have to support Israel, because from a political and moral standpoint they really are on the right side... it IS their land now. The Palestinians were displaced, but lots of people have been, and there is plenty of space in the Middle Eastern societies that the 'refugees' are in now... and its not like they'll ever get back Israel. So they need to be realisitic. I know that in this world that's a lot to ask... which is why I'm pessimistic about a solution anytime soon.
As for the Israelis, the situation would be much better if they'd agree to stay in just Israel and let the Palestinians set up a mostly seperate nation in the West Bank and Gaza... and not set up illegal settlements. They need to be realistic too -- they aren't getting those territories anytime soon and all those illegal settlers do is anger the Arabs more.
So we have two sides which hate eachother and have major arguements on religion, land, politics, and most everything else. That isn't a good recipe for anything other than unending war... which is what we have.
And we won't have peace soon without very surprising things happening on both sides. American presidents have been trying for decades with no avail, after all... so this is obviously something hard to come by. But it is possible someday... I think what would probably need to happen is
1)The Arab nations need to admit that Israel is there and is staying there.
2)Both sides need to agree on the border between the Israeli and Palestian lands as a permanant, solid border -- not a permeable one that the Israelis can go through and settle on the other side of.
3)The Arabs need to crack down hard on the terrorists and take a hard line towards all supporting them. They also need to cut the anti-Israeli and anti-US religious rhetoric.
4) Israel has to respect the borders they set and not go in with tanks killing people every time someone sets off a bomb once they really start into this process. It just makes the Palestinians angrier.
This is of course just a start... you can't change the long-bred hatreds on both sides quickly. But unless you work on it it'll become even more permanant and we'll still be worrying about Israel in another 50 years. That would be very bad.
If we can get these sides that hate eachother as much as these do to make some basic agreements we could change things... but I'm not stupid. I know the terrorists don't want peace. And neither do people like Ariel Sharon. You have to know that the terror groups will bomb every time we get close to peace... its their way of keeping their movements alive. They don't want to suddenly me made irrelevant, after all...
But on the other hand Israel can't just ignore the terrorists and do nothing because that won't help much either. So they try to get the Palestinians to crack down on terrorism... while because of many reasons -- some of them the Israeli army and others being natural Palestinian resistance to actually stopping the terrorists, among things -- the Palestinians can't and won't do much. The ones in the Palestinian government who do want to do something don't have the power to do much... and in the Palestinian territories the terror groups have massive networks and can do a lot to resist efforts from the fairly weak Palestinian government to stop them...
So the Israelis go in with tanks. And then Palestinians angry about that and other problems bomb a Israeli bus. And so on...
I'm pretty pessimistic of this cycle changing soon. You need extrordanary circumstances -- leaders, on both sides, willing to do the unpopular thing and compromise their demands to the reality of what can happen and brave enough to enforce this on the governments, no matter what tries to stop them.. or a popular force moving on both sides to solve this issue.. that it just seems unlikely that it'll change soon. So we'll deal with terrorists.
Oh... right, this isn't just a Israel thing. Its all Arab terrorism. Well, until we solve Israel we will have terrorism from the Arab Middle East. It really is that simple.
The other forces for violence there are mostly in the Anti-American religious thoughts dispensed by the Iranian Shi'ites and the Iraqi Shi'ites who agree with the Iranians on those issues. That problem of course is a big one. We can't let Iraq become a Iran-style theocracy, of course, but because of the Shi'ite majority and the fact that lots of them do believe in the Iranian leaders' viewpoints and that that should be in Iraq too it'll be trouble. I doubt they can be a absolute majority... but they have a LOT of power and its a major problem that we need to deal with somehow. We also need to do something about Iran without doing anything... that's hard. We are waiting for a revolution, I guess... but that'll be a long time coming, because while things are clearly changing there they don't appear to be changing fast enough to avoid making the major problems they are causing in Iraq especially a lot worse before they get better.
And once again, there really isn't a good solution to this... for Iran we do really have to wait it out. Its inevitable that they will change, since they have such a huge majority of people wanting change and getting frusterated by the lack of it, but until then the Shi'ite Islamic fundamentalists in Iran are causing major problems by disseminating their brand of Islam... and the people there like what they hear, as I'd fully expect.
So given all these problems, can you be surprised that so many terrorists come from there? Or that a significant number of Iraqis hate us? No, I can't.
As for Iraq, we CAN do things there now -- its not too late to do some things. We can fix the power stations and water stations so that everyone gets power and water all the time again. That alone would give us lots more support by the Iraqi population. We also need to clamp down more on security. We need more troops, preferably from a multinational force. And we need to work with what we can to spread understanding of what our aims are (preferably lying because saying "we wanted your oil and props for the Bush re-election campaign" won't go over well), improve services beyond what was provided before, and not abandon them too soon. If we leave in the next five years we'll have failed them. It'll probably take longer than that.
And the American population will need to acccept these casualties and a long-term troop deployment there numbering in the high tens of thousands at most after we move in a multinational force as well to help relieve us from all the burden.
Because if we leave and abandon the Iraqis, they'll end up in a bad state and just fester and breed even more terrorists and murderers.
*does character count check*
12,048. Wow.
New episodes of... - Darunia - 28th June 2003
Oh you all have good points. I am now officially a tree-hugger. I love the world. I want to marry a black woman, only eat tofu and adopt a chinese kid...is that what you want me to say? For the LAST FUCKING time, this IS MY STANCE:
I BELIEVE IN WORLD PEACE AND EQUALITY. I'm not an idiot, despite your PC-Gestappo rantings. I know that people are more than less all equal, and that you can't blame a nation for a few people. I believe in world peace, and the likes thereof. Is this a full retraction of what I said before? Probably. I don't hate any race. I used to, back in 5th grade, hate Japan vehemently... mostly over Pearl Harbor. I don't anymore. I'm not an idiot...RATHER I find you to be very narrow-minded and offbeat for declaring anyone who isn't of your exact opinion on world harmony an idiot. I don't hate arabs, Germans, Spaniards, etc. I have absolutely nothing against black people nor jews. You took the TINIEST thing about Japanese culture and ran with it...as usual. But don't you act like you didn't love smashing me over the head for that weak, half-hearted Japanese comment. What you bastards need to do is LOOSEN THE FUCK UP and not go on a liberal jihaad over:
I dislike that region of the world, wink-wink.
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 28th June 2003
Darunia... I know you'll never read my post, but if you did you'd see that I don't really talk much about you... most of that post was talking about the Arabs and what we can do about that situation. :) And some about WW2, but most of that was in the older post.
You are just an idiot. I was trying to move the thread beyond just insulting you and have (someone) with a decent discussion of these issues...
Maybe I should just take that post and the part from that last post and make a new thread in the debate forum with them...
As for your latest comments all I will say is that it is truly bizarre that you keep saying that you don't hate them and you want peace and all that and then making statements in the next sentence that say "see I hate them"... its truly bizarre.
"I don't hate them, I just think that its stupid that you should say that its not okay to dislike everyone from a lot of other nations". Erm...
Saying that you think it should be okay to hate nationalities IS BIGOTRY! And that isn't even remotely okay!
"I have nothing against group X, I just insult them... it doesn't mean anything..." is just as idiotic.
And yes I certainly do extend this to all the idiots calling everything "gay".
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 28th June 2003
Darunia, a word of advice, you should have just said "I don't like this genre of animation." and ended that statement with a period none of this would have happened. But instead, you decided to throw race into it too: "I don't like this genre of animation (nor this geographic region, not it's peoples). Joking or not you should have just left that last part out.
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 28th June 2003
Its not funny when we know he believes garbage like that.
New episodes of... - Dark Jaguar - 28th June 2003
Hmm, it would seem it's all a big misunderstanding. Seems he was just joking (I assumed the smily was because he knew it would make people upset), so he says. Hopefully his statement that he no longer believes such stuff is true (though saying what I said was "PC tree hugger stuff" makes me wonder). I'll just put it to good faith that he really was just joking then, but I'll be keeping my i on you!
New episodes of... - OB1 - 28th June 2003
So... you're a tree-hugger if you believe in the equality of all races? And what's wrong with trees? We kind of need them in order to survive.
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 28th June 2003
No, DJ... read it again. He doesn't admit fault... and he "says" he was wrong but then promptly reasserts the fact that he thinks its fine to believe such things... which clearly shows what he really believes. No, he's trying to get out of it, but I have no doubt that he does believe those things.
New episodes of... - Dark Jaguar - 28th June 2003
Well I'll not read into that comment so much, as he might just believe something like "I may not agree with what you said, but I'd fight and die to protect your right to say it" or something. Probably not, but I'll trust him, for now. No one said trust had anything to do with proof.
And as for trees, I'm hardly one to hug them, after wandering into a forest of total melevolence, they all seemed to be reaching for me, with evil faces... A wave of my ax though and they kept to themselves.
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 28th June 2003
Quote:Oh you all have good points. I am now officially a tree-hugger. I love the world. I want to marry a black woman, only eat tofu and adopt a chinese kid...is that what you want me to say? For the LAST FUCKING time, this IS MY STANCE:
Read: You are annoying me and I want to say what my "views" are.
Quote:I BELIEVE IN WORLD PEACE AND EQUALITY. I'm not an idiot, despite your PC-Gestappo rantings. I know that people are more than less all equal, and that you can't blame a nation for a few people. I believe in world peace, and the likes thereof. Is this a full retraction of what I said before? Probably.
Given that just up this page you said the exact opposite of this, yes... and it stretches the bounds of credibility, that's for sure.
Quote:I don't hate any race. I used to, back in 5th grade, hate Japan vehemently... mostly over Pearl Harbor. I don't anymore. I'm not an idiot...
Read: I used to but I've "changed".
Quite obvious that you changed a lot given what you said in this thread. Yup.
Quote:RATHER I find you to be very narrow-minded and offbeat for declaring anyone who isn't of your exact opinion on world harmony an idiot. I don't hate arabs, Germans, Spaniards, etc. I have absolutely nothing against black people nor jews.
You don't hate them... yet you dislike them and their cultures (YOU SAID SO YOURSELF), you use racial slurs for them (AS YOU ADMITED) that should never be spoken by anyone, you said you have "questions" about the credibility of entire races because of the actions of a few, in some cases for things 50 years ago (once again, as you said yourself)...
That to me sure looks like that's hate in all but name.
Quote:You took the TINIEST thing about Japanese culture and ran with it...as usual. But don't you act like you didn't love smashing me over the head for that weak, half-hearted Japanese comment. What you bastards need to do is LOOSEN THE FUCK UP and not go on a liberal jihaad over:
I dislike that region of the world, wink-wink.
Right, because its perfectly fine to act like you did then pass it off as a joke? Do you think we're that stupid?
And this is hardly just about that one comment... you do this every so often all the time! Its a pattern, not a one-off problem! That makes it a real issue, not just a "I defended a really stupid position" thing...
As I said in my long post (well didn't say, but I talked about the issue so its clear to see where your opinions fit in it if you read that), your opinion on the Arabs is also a problem... along with the Germans and Japanese, but the Arabs are the most recent one so its most important to deal with...
"weak half-hearted comment"? Huh, I think you have different definitions of this stuff... that somehow make bigotry okay. Its not. And if it was a joke (which it looks like a pathetic attempt at joking which is trying to cover up the fact that you pretty much believe that stuff)... well it just shows you to be bigoted. Which we already knew...
New episodes of... - Darunia - 28th June 2003
Ya know what; the following people can go fuck off:
-A Black Falcon
-OB1
...and to a noteworthy lesser extent...
-Great Rumbler.
I don't have to prove anything to you. You speak with such pomp and arrogance, freely dismissing me. I don't care. Go right the fuck on and bash me. I won't come back into this thread, and I'll get on with me life. If you didn't like my tiny quote you could've ignored it. It comes as no surprise that OB1 ran as far as he did with this stupid thing, but ABF surprised me. As for Dark Jaguar, I appreciate his having been the most moderate of the extremist nazis here. Why don't you go lynch my poor grandfather, he was in WWII and hates the Germans. I honestly retracted what I said, but no, you fucking assholes have to dissect it and keep digging deeper.
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 28th June 2003
I don't like bigots. Why should you be surprised that I react when you once again prove yourself to be one?
And that applies equally for every idiot out there using "gay" as a normal form of expression.
New episodes of... - Darunia - 28th June 2003
I don't like assholes. Why should you be surprised when I react once you've proven yourself to be one?
YES, I DID COME BACK INTO THIS THREAD even though I said I wouldn't.
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 28th June 2003
How exactly does spending over an hour to write a very good long post about the situation in the Middle East and the Arabs make me and stupid? Because that's what I talked about -- the Middle Eastern situation and reasons for why the Germans and Japanese did what they did...
As I thought, you didn't read it. Its not 5 pages of insults. :)
Oh, and as I also said it probably should be in the Debate Forum... while it is related to this thread's current topic it won't get a appropriate reply here, clearly.
New episodes of... - OB1 - 28th June 2003
It's funny how Darunia calls us Nazis when he's the most Nazi-like person here.
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 28th June 2003
Yeah... calling people Nazis for opposing thoughts that the Nazis would be at home with (though they'd be far more radical) is kind of ironic... ;)
New episodes of... - Darunia - 28th June 2003
Oh gee whiz, yea, my hating Nazis makes me a nazi. Good one shithead. Perhaps you meant that in hating people, it makes me a Nazi. But then again I don't hate any peoples. But you like to think I do...but thats because you hate me, so that MAKES YOU the nazi. I don't care. I'm wicked buzzed and I don't give a fuck anymore, so you can all suck my balls.
ABF, I wasn't targeting you because of your arab post, but because of what you said earlier. Trying to scale down the atrocity of WWII to an acceptable dosage is pathetic. Sure they had economic reasons, but if you can put WWII to logic and dismiss it, then WHAT THE FUCK CAN ANYONE BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR?
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 28th June 2003
Darunia, as I thought I made clear in my talking about WW2, I was talking about psychology, not economics... well I was talking about both but economics doesn't get them off the hook for atrocities. It goes a long way to explaining why they went to war, but not why they did what they did during it.
It is the psychology part that does that. And as I said it doesn't absolve them of war crimes... it just explains why what happened happened. I happen to find that stuff very interesting... so the Japanese were awful to prisoners, and killed large numbers of civilians too. And commited large numbers of suicide attacks. Why? "They are crazy" isn't the answer... its a complex mix of religion, honor, duty, and tradition that led them to where they were... and it pretty much shows, when you understand the causes, that they honestly felt that they were doing what was both right and the only thing to do. And they kept the general civilian population from knowing anything about the atrocities they committed in the war, as well. Some people well might have lost their (absolute) faith in the government if they had known all that was going on... but they didn't really, or they ignored any reports... and the Japanese people were fanatically loyal to their leaders.
As for the Germans, in some ways it was similar -- a leader who commanded lots of loyalty and could get past the few that tried to revolt against him, absolute control over the military, hiding the atrocities from the general public, finding someone to blame for national problems, wanting territorial expansion and resources...
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 29th June 2003
Quote:Ya know what; the following people can go fuck off:
-A Black Falcon
-OB1
...and to a noteworthy lesser extent...
-Great Rumbler.
What?! I did more than OB1 in all this!!
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 29th June 2003
He doesn't need to do anything to get Darunia to hate him. :)
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 29th June 2003
Still...I should have at least got something better than honorable mention!!
New episodes of... - Darunia - 29th June 2003
Awe, poor Great Rumbler...he feels left out.
*Declares Formal State of War on Great Rumbler*
Ya feel better? Here's a cookie.
ABF: I see your point, but the way you talk, no one can be held accountable for anything. If you REALLY try hard enough you can talk your way out of anything. Here you are, humanizing the Nazis and the kamikazee pilots...did they have reasons? Of course they did...but that doesn't rectify what they did. Looking at things from different perspectives is just peachy, but some people MUST BE held accountable for things. WWII is an example. You would argue that Germany shouldn't be held accountable as a whole; but the whole nation made a united effort...just like here the women went to the factories and the men fought. I don't hate Germany either by the way. Not that I feel I need prove anything to you, you shitmonger.
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 30th June 2003
My point is that the vast, vast majorities of the populations in those nations were exactly the same as everyone in the Allied nations: people doing what they could to defend their nation in the face of enemies. Doing that isn't evil... and all sides use propaganda so that's not bad either, really...
Go ahead and blame the leaders. They are mostly guilty. And blame the sadists, etc who did things that are cruel and unusual and beyond what their society sees as normal and beyond what they were taught.
But blaming the soldiers for just doing what is the only thing they know as right, or the only thing they know will keep them from being killed for desertion of aiding the enemy or being an enemy of the state or something? No, I don't blame them for that.
And I certainly don't blame the civilians at home. They really didn't know the full extent of what was going on...
Sure, they supported their governments. But they didn't know what their governments and armies were really doing... and in that atmosphere of fear and patriotism, it'd be hard to do anything else. So anyone who DID have doubts would justifiably keep silent...
New episodes of... - OB1 - 30th June 2003
Man, look at that Nazi try to defend himself. :shake:
New episodes of... - Darunia - 30th June 2003
Quote:"people doing what they could to defend their nation in the face of enemies."
Just defending their country from enemies...? They started the war. And military service was NOT mandatory...and there was no conscription. Those people who invaded Poland in '39, France in '40, Russia in '41...they weren't "fighting to defend their nation", they were trying to conquer the world.
Quote:But they didn't know what their governments and armies were really doing...
Oh please. Neighbors disappearing; whole Jewish ghettoes going silent. No, I didn't see anything. They weren't ALL ignorant.
And OB1---I don't know if you were talking to me or not, but DON'T YOU EVER FUCKING CALL ME A NAZI. Calling me Nazi because I hate Nazis... I mean christ!
New episodes of... - OB1 - 30th June 2003
You may hate Nazis but your hatred of so many other races and nationalities makes you sound like one.
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 30th June 2003
Quote:Just defending their country from enemies...? They started the war. And military service was NOT mandatory... and there was no conscription. Those people who invaded Poland in '39, France in '40, Russia in '41...they weren't "fighting to defend their nation", they were trying to conquer the world.
You may see it that way but to them it was very different. Remember the atmosphere of the time... the people of those nations just didn't see it that way, as is perfectly understandable... they act like they are taught, and what they learn is what the government tells them...
No mandantory military conscription? I don't know... Hitler did a great job of militarizing his whole nation by greatly increasing the military.
See... Germany. The people are depressed. The depression has hit very, very hard...
Remember. After WW1, Germany was hit with a horrible peace treaty that made them pay for the whole war. Way more than they could. But they did manage it... mostly from money they got from investments in the American stock market. So it really was a circle -- US to Germany to England, and some of that money went to the US stock market...
But then there was the depression. The stock market bombed. And Germany was suddenly thrown into a very, very severe depression. So they had to blame SOMEONE...
And then Hitler, who had been scorned several years earlier when the economy was going well, suddenly was listened to. He had an answer for their nations problems... can you really blame them for listening? And its not like anti-Jewish sentiment was new... actually Europe had a very long tradition of hating the Jews... he just brought it farther. And people listened... which is bad but hardly surprising given the situation.
What I don't get is this part. If we are so brave to defend our nation from the evil axis what makes them so horrible to defend theirs from the evil allies? Its the same thing, just in opposite sides... and as I said its not like the average soldiers had major differences. Now groups like the SS or something, the death squads that wen around killing civilians... they were criminals and evil people. But not the average soldiers...
Quote:Oh please. Neighbors disappearing; whole Jewish ghettoes going silent. No, I didn't see anything. They weren't ALL ignorant.
Sorry, but not even most of the JEWS had a clue about what was going on until they were herded into cattle cars. I'd hardly expect that the population of Germany would know any more!
It was a well-kept secret for years... one that they didn't tell anyone and that the Allies had gotten rumors of but had ignored (it is true... the Allied leaders had heard rumors of deathcamps and the like but didn't listen. Was that due to our own anti-Jewish bias? I don't know... but that's not the point. The point is that it wasn't really something that most anyone -- in the Allied or the Axis nations -- paid much of any attention to until they opened the concentration camps and found the evidence.
Before that even the people who knew didn't really want to believe it... excepting of course a small minority of Western Jews... but they were ignored.
New episodes of... - Moiraine - 30th June 2003
Quote:Originally posted by OB1
You may hate Nazis but your hatred of so many other races and nationalities makes you sound like one.
It doesn't make you much better when you go out of your way just to comment on EVERYTHING Darunia says.. I think you need a new past time...
New episodes of... - Darunia - 30th June 2003
Remember. After WW1, Germany was hit with a horrible peace treaty that made them pay for the whole war.
If they hadn't started WWI, they wouldn't have had a horrible peace treaty. And before you start preaching about they didn't start WWI, they gave Austria-Hungary a "blank check" to attack Serbia. No one wouldve cared if Germany had shut the hell up. In fact, I blame Germany for both World Wars, started in 1871, after the Franco-Prussian war. They sewed the seeds for it back then. You blame the French for the Versailles Treaty; I blame the Germans for THAT treaty, which started the war that brought about the Versailles Treaty!
Sorry, but not even most of the JEWS had a clue about what was going on until they were herded into cattle cars. I'd hardly expect that the population of Germany would know any more!
Sorry? Why are you saying sorry; as if you have some superiority over me and I'm trying to impress you. That's not true either, it wasn't front page material, but people knew about it. Try those all-too-realistic movies like Schindler's List and The Pianist. The poor Jews knew, but they couldn't do anything.
New episodes of... - OB1 - 30th June 2003
Quote:Originally posted by Moiraine
It doesn't make you much better when you go out of your way just to comment on EVERYTHING Darunia says.. I think you need a new past time...
It's called replying to posts, my dear. *whispers* That's what this forum is for! Now go back to bed and let us big people do our little forum thing.
New episodes of... - Darunia - 30th June 2003
Can't stand to see someone speaking up for me can you OB1. Smack her right out of the thread.
New episodes of... - Moiraine - 30th June 2003
Quote:Originally posted by OB1
It's called replying to posts, my dear. *whispers* That's what this forum is for! Now go back to bed and let us big people do our little forum thing.
Whoa I had no idea that being an ass classified you as being a "big person"
I know what this forum is for it was called "replying to posts, my dear."
New episodes of... - Great Rumbler - 30th June 2003
Aww, there just like a bunch of little children! So cute! *pinches Darunia's cheek* *Darunia flees in terror* Hey! That worked out better than I thought it would!
New episodes of... - OB1 - 30th June 2003
Uh-oh, both Darunia and Moiraine are on my case now! That means trouble!
:evilha:
New episodes of... - A Black Falcon - 30th June 2003
Quote:If they hadn't started WWI, they wouldn't have had a horrible peace treaty. And before you start preaching about they didn't start WWI, they gave Austria-Hungary a "blank check" to attack Serbia. No one wouldve cared if Germany had shut the hell up. In fact, I blame Germany for both World Wars, started in 1871, after the Franco-Prussian war. They sewed the seeds for it back then. You blame the French for the Versailles Treaty; I blame the Germans for THAT treaty, which started the war that brought about the Versailles Treaty!
Well they didn't start the war!
True, they did write the blank check, but if you think that its their fault you need to look at your history again.
First... I don't think World War One was really anyone's fault. No one nation was to blame. No, the fault lies on the collective governments of Europe. They all assumed that the alliances would keep war away... and that modern technology wouldn't lead to fundamental change in the way war was fought.
They thought that it'd be like another one of the 19th century wars -- short and simple, without too many casualties.
So they all antagonized eachother.
Sure, the Germans gave Austria a blank check. But that's just one of the last steps on a complex path that led to an inevitable war. The only question was 'who will fire the first shot'. And so when Serbian terrorists killed the Austrian prince, Europe had the excuse it needed to go to war.
Sure, the Kaizer was a moron and thought that he could win easily... its why he helped fund the Austrians. But the French, Russian, and British governments were no better. In WW1 neither side was evil... no one was fighting for evil principles, neither side was markably more evil in war than the other... no, it was just a big bloody mistake that the European governments thought they could avoid with the alliances. Of course they never dreamed that it was those same alliances that would destroy them...
But it is of course true that WW1 caused WW2. WW2 would never have happened without the WW1 peace treaty that the victors (except for us, but we never signed the treaty anyway, so that doesn't matter) imposed on Germany... making them take all the blame for the war was absurd when others were more culpable and they didn't instigate it. And the scale of the repartitions... insane. And as I said, those repartitions led Germany to the nasty circle that made their government and their whole economy completely reliant on the American stock bubble...
Leaving the nation ripe for people with answers to the problems once the bubble burst.
Quote:Sorry? Why are you saying sorry; as if you have some superiority over me and I'm trying to impress you. That's not true either, it wasn't front page material, but people knew about it. Try those all-too-realistic movies like Schindler's List and The Pianist. The poor Jews knew, but they couldn't do anything.
Try history. I have read and watched enough to know some of this stuff...
First... sure, some people had heard rumors. Some people in Europe, some Jews, some Americans... some had heard. But no one truly believed such things... no one could be doing that! What strange rumors! As I said, based on reading books about the Jews in Europe, in so many cases people would hear some tales of evildoing but would think 'that won't happen here too' or 'they are exxagerations'... because no one except the higher-ups knew the true extent of the horror.
As for the few American Jews who knew what was going on? I watched a documentary on that... they were ignored. Even by President Roosevelt.
No, it wasn't until the deathcamps were found that any significant number of people really believed that the whispered tales could be true.
Maybe rumors would be buried deep in newspapers. But those weren't absolute accounts. And most Americans and Western Europeans were antisemites anyway, so I bet a very large number of them just thought 'oh well'... and not knowing the true extent of it they often didn't really think much of it.