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PAY ATTENTION - Dark Jaguar - 22nd February 2005
Okay then, I am attempting to mediate this whole mess. GR... apparently... tries to do that all the time. Oh and GR, don't leave just because one member leaves. If a lot do, it may be something to consider, but really, you are one of the most valued people we have here. This whole time you've been here, can it really be the only one you've made friends with is OB1? I like you! Stick around!
Look, I really have no idea why everyone got so annoyed by that sticky thread except that people have been holding some major hostility towards OB1. Maybe some of it is deserved, but don't make a big deal out of this.
The only way I can properly mediate in this until Weltall returns is to actually read OB1's posts. To that end, I will now unban OB1... 2 months ago. That's right, I've actually had OB1 unblocked for a long while now. I got over whatever stick was up my arse about him and can now easily ignore what would normally incite me to idiotic fighting.
Now here's the thing. OB1 alone isn't the glue of this message board. There is no I in team.... but there is an M and an E... Anyway, no single member makes the board worth visiting. It's the talks between everyone. Now, I'll be the first to admit the message board is rather slow. Nonsense threads aside, decent threads only show up every few days. I don't complain about it though. I'm fine with a slow thread so long as it isn't dead. Decent topics do still show up on a regular basis. It's not fast, but it's fine. I don't feel the need to breathe life into our forum because the rate is fast enough for me. To that end I only blitz the forum with threads about nothing every week or so :D.
Anyway, allow me to expand a few things.
One, this all started because some people got upset about a silly image thread. OB1, as I feel fine addressing you at this point, I must say the whole thing was "cute"... Pointless, but harmless. No reason for everyone to get all upset. I think the act of sticking it may have been triggered by annoyance in OB1's general direction...
Here's the deal. A lot of hostility is out in the open, so let's just make it all clear. We ALL have our problems with OB1 (heck, the more prominent members here all have their share of frustrated peoples who would rather not get involved about it). The man has an ego that won't quit and never listens to other points of view. However, at the same time he does contribute to this forum with all manner of gaming news topics and often enough his own views on the articles which can be pretty dead on accurate. I understand he can come off a little... well rude... but in his more civil moods certainly OB1 is a keeper.
OB1 and GR had the right to make their own little thread about whatever topic they so wanted. Making it a sticky also isn't that big a deal. So what? It's the principle? What sort of defense is that? If it's not a big deal, it's not a big deal. Whatever principal you are afraid was violated, it's your invention! That is what is meant by the phrase "don't make a mountain out of a mole hill" and the idea of major morality being threatened by what in reality are pretty silly things is what leads to a LOT of suffering in the real world.
That being said, OB1, why go about deleting their posts? What purpose does it serve? Truly, I seem to recall you stating you would never actually delete a post you found out of place, just move them. Honestly at the time I was against even moving it around, but you did at least recognize that they have a right to their words. The reality is this is a message board. When one posts here, they are agreeing to forgo private conversation in favor of a public forum where all comments can be commented on by a completely uninvolved 3rd party. If one wants a private conversation, there is instant messaging. I am not inviting war here OB1. I am merely stating a fact. I know you have the technical power to delete posts, but you aren't placed above the rest of the almost all admins around here. I do believe they have a right to their opinions, however raged and incoherent as they might be. Keep in mind, for all their mouthing off, you were the first to delete posts. They were just stating things until that point. Further, there is one step that, while I know may be something that would hurt your pride, was an option that may have prevented some of this. Do not get me wrong, yes their complaints were stupid, but if you had decided to simply go ahead and unsticky the thread of your own accord, even with a simple comment that you are only doing this as a gesture of good will and you honestly had no obligation to, then it would have ended hostilities. Is this principle you seek really so important that you would risk friendships over it? Is it not more moral to know when to concede, despite what attack on your pride you may percieve? Is it really... that big a deal? This may sound like an afterschool special, but truly it really does take more strength to know when to simply make concessions than to be stubborn. It DOES take more strength to do that, take it from me. It is not cowardly to do such things, it shows character. This, above all else, is really the only thing I want you to see.
After the silly rage over the pics thread, and the subsequent deletions done due to a percieved attack of OB1's honor, then things REALLY got out of hand. That's when all those hostilities really took over. People have stated contradicting opinions to OB1 only to have him shoot them down long enough, I suppose. They wanted blood... or maybe just to yell at OB1... whatever. Fact of the matter is, if you don't know OB1's personality by now, or that is, how to deal with it, then you should learn. The best way to deal with him when his argumentative side emerges is to simply drop it until his cooler side comes back. Most of you did a much better job of that than I did, but I wonder how well you dropped it after all, like on the inside. No matter, the point is we all know what OB1 can be like at times and accept it. This is no different really. Yes, what he did was uncalled for in this case, but maybe it was best to just take it in stride and start up some other TC topic? OB1, while reacting to it poorly, was attacked over a rather trivial thing to start with and had reason to be upset (not reason to go further, but yes reason to be upset). No need to drag it out.
After this, Edenmaster apparently took it upon himself to delete the thread outright. This was a bad move. I understand that his deleting of posts was wrong, but really doing it right back is not good. "Getting even" is such a moronic mentallity... Surely our society has evolved past that at least? Perhaps the best way would have been to leave it alone? Does it matter if he actually sees the point you are making doing that? Isn't it better to do peaceful acts simply because it is the right thing to do, not because of the results?
Anyways, after this, the result was inevitable. OB1 is now VERY angry. I would imagine so. I mean, remember how angry you were when your posts were deleted unjustly. The same thing happened to him, but his personality is such that this is seen as an insult, an attack on who he is. Discrimination of sorts I believe. He didn't even know who did it, which is something he hates more than anything. He does not like the idea of someone doing something to him without coming forward. EM came forard now of course, but at the time. Anyway, now we have serious trouble.
A valued member is now threatening to leave. He is provoking people to do stuff to him because he wants an excuse. Don't do anything to him. We want him to stay. His other threat, to randomly delete accounts, really IS a massive and unjust abuse of admin priviliages. However, who cares? Don't worry, I've backed up the member list. Any damage done I can repair. Sure it's a "massive assault against us" and "what of the principle?" but yeesh, why make a big deal when you don't actually have to? I for one am willing to put all this stupidity behind us.
OB1, you have your faults, faults which, more than others, are very abbrasive to people, but you have plenty of good qualities. Stick around! A lot of what I said really applies to everyone here, including you. Never get into a fight when you don't have to. Feeling a need for justice when in reality there is no permanent damage, and only your pride is at stake, is a very terrible thing.
To everyone, get over it! Who cares who was "right"? I mean, really? Is any of this enough to threaten this lovely city over? Do we really want Weltall to show up to find he's been paying for this site for a few weeks when everyone has left? Years from now, will the little attacks on our pride really even be remembered? Really think about this. To be able to just let things slide, to ignore any percieved insults and see the good things. To be able to see your own faults for what they are and laugh off or outright ignore what actually are wrongnesses done to you, to be able to put that better than how I did, really, THAT is character. Don't try defending your honor over every little thing. That's the way of the bully and the coward. Have the self confidence to not even care about such things. Should you walk by someone and attempt to talk to them and they ignore you, don't say "Oh I guess you don't SEE me huh?" and shoot them . Rather, just say "oh well" and get on with your life. The former is the mindset that is turning ghetto places into unlivable war zones between gangs over issues that are completely pointless, over honor that was never really threatened to begin with.
Don't turn this place into a ghetto. I love this place. "Defending your honor" is a concept that ALWAYS leads to tragedy! Such ideals make mountains from mole hills, not just in their minds, but in reality. An accidently spill of a drink should not result in a bar room brawl. A percieved insult to your family should not result in a samurai battle. These things are not romantic, they are foolish. No good results, just suffering.
So in other words, just drop it okay? Hey, let's all find some nice gaming news and post a thread about what we find. That's the challenge for the day. It'll clear our heads!
PAY ATTENTION - A Black Falcon - 22nd February 2005
DJ: Read the last paragraph of my response for why I was so annoyed by that thread. That same issue -- GR and OB1's constant flood of stupid, worthless threads that only contain an annoying large image, a smilie, or "...", are so annoying... and obviously a lot of people agree so because a lot of people complained when a thread just for them appeared. If the image thread had come out of nowhere, you'd be right that it'd be silly and harmless. But on top of so much of their filling thread after thread with waste... it was just too much, and I reacted, and then (presumably with similar concerns) so did others...
Oh, as said before, the thread was never deleted. It was moved to the Bo Jackson forum, by EM. ... you know, the forum with the Attach Images thread? Accessible through the 'Forum Leaders' section or your admin panel? There were posts deleted in that thread, though, and by OB1. He did say he would first, but does that excuse it at all? I'd say not.
After all, he warned us that he'd start deleting accounts if anyone moved the thread again, so if someone does and then he deletes an account or two would that be justified? Of course not!
What we really need, and this is repeating what has been said a lot, is some regular source of new members... without them we just stew here, and some people start posting less, and fewer people post, and it gets to this state... we really need some way of getting new people to come. Some of which, preferably, like to actually discuss GAMES... because that's one of the things I like most about OB1 (DJ does it some too) -- he's willing to write replies to long posts and continue the discussion and isn't intimidated by the long posts. Most people here can't say that of themselves and I wish that they could, because nice, decently long discussions of games is the main reason I'm here. Why people are so unwilling to participate once one starts -- quickly leaving it to just me and OB1 and perhaps someone else -- I simply do not understand.
(Of course, what happens next with OB1 is predictable and almost always to the destruction of decent arguement, but that's not the main point here and it doesn't have to be that way with everyone...)
PAY ATTENTION - Dark Jaguar - 22nd February 2005
I wouldn't assume such a thing. OB1 is capable of ratinonal discussion as often as the other kind. Honestly your post came while I was typing mine, hence why I missed that paragraph. I see your point, but despite that, honestly there was no need to rail against him.
Oh and, yes I would say that being warned that someone will do something evil to you does not make it your fault when they do it. If someone tells me they will shoot me if I call for help, and I do it anyway, it is still entirely their fault if they decide to go ahead and shoot me when I do, inevitably, call for help. They very well could have changed their mind when I did that. Fault always lies with the last person who made a concious decision leading to the bad thing.
My main point here is that we need to simply let bygones be bygones. We won't care about this 2 years from now, so let's just mentally time travel and stop caring now! So, who cares about little offenses, real or imagined? Let's just get over it and start discussing.
I don't find it needed to post a LOT, just enough to keep things alive. More members is nice, but not needed as far as I'm concerned. I stick around for the decent conversation and occasional times when I have something to say. Sometimes I just listen to other's opinions and am satisfied with that.
More posters, should you want them, we can seek out. You must be careful going about this though. Do not simply go to a forum and say "go here'. That's rude. Instead, go there, become friends, and this is the important part, wait for a moment when such a suggestion is welcome. Then, it won't be spam. Another method is asking people you know in physical reality to come here.
PAY ATTENTION - EdenMaster - 22nd February 2005
I never deleted that thread, nor was I against the idea behind the thread. If OB1 and GR want a home for all their crazy images, that's fine by me. Sure, they're annoying, but what are you going to do about them, really?
My problem with the whole thing was the fact that it was stickied. As far as I'm concerned, a thread should be stickied so that everyone in the forums can see it, thusly containing something that the whole forum could benefit from, such as an important announcement. OB1 and GR having a thread taking up space on top of the page struck me as unnecessary and I posted with something to the effect of:
"Should this thread really be stickied?"
Perhaps not verbatim my words, but it was something of that nature. OB1's response to me was to delete my post and accuse me of being a baby and everything else. Yeah, this made me mad.
I left it alone. I came back another day to see more complaints. Other members complained of the threads existence, and it was causing commotion. So I used my administrator priviledges to move it to the Bo forum. For the record, <u>I did not delete GR's pictures</u>. I swear it.
So I moved it. In hidsight, perhaps a bad idea, but I will not apologize. I see no reason why the post should be stickied, nor why it serves less of it's intended purpose in the Bo forum, without cluttering the forum list for those who don't need it.
That was my stance, and that is what I attempted to explain to OB1. I think one or two words got through to him in the hour we spoke before I gave up on him. You can't talk to him when he's mad. I'll give him some time and perhaps we'll reach some sort of happy medium for the whole forum.
So there, I've said my piece.
PAY ATTENTION - alien space marine - 22nd February 2005
Tc goes into choas and for the first time its not my fault!
What the fucking hell is this all about anyway Ive been away for a while?
PAY ATTENTION - Great Rumbler - 22nd February 2005
Quote:Because, I'd like to hope, people finally got a chance to speak out against the reign of OB1 and your reign of worthless, word-free posts?
Very few people ever post here anymore! What's the point of trying to make some thought, provoking and deep posts when there's barely anyone to respond to it! If more people would post here I might be a bit more considerate about what I post! As it stands though I'm not because there's simply no incentive to do so!
Quote:But it doesn't encourage them to post when what IS being posted is in the majority so stupid...
But OB1 making a sticky thread to post pictures in does? It's kind of sad that that's what brought everyone back. Anyway, I don't care about the thread enough anymore to make a big deal about it, so I'll move on to the next quote.
Quote:DJ: Read the last paragraph of my response for why I was so annoyed by that thread. That same issue -- GR and OB1's constant flood of stupid, worthless threads that only contain an annoying large image, a smilie, or "...", are so annoying... and obviously a lot of people agree so because a lot of people complained when a thread just for them appeared. If the image thread had come out of nowhere, you'd be right that it'd be silly and harmless. But on top of so much of their filling thread after thread with waste... it was just too much, and I reacted, and then (presumably with similar concerns) so did others...
We post stuff like that because there's nothing else to do. Hardly anyone else posts here on any kind of regular basis, maybe 6 in total who do. So what's the point in trying to make a really good though-provoking posts and then hardly making any kind of posts that are pointless? There's no point, because there's only a handful of people who are actually going to reply to it. If more people posted I'm sure that we'd try to harder to make our posts matter, but there's absolutely no incentive to do much better. SO POST! That's all I'm asking for. I seem to be saying that a lot recently...
PAY ATTENTION - OB1 - 22nd February 2005
Ok I didn't read your entire post, DJ, because you still seem to have the hypocritical opinion that I cannot accept opposing views and opinions while that describes both you (and ABF) to a T. But whatever, I am sick of arguing. Because of that fact I'm not even going to look at ABF's posts in this thread. I'm not going to block him, but I will skip past all of his messages that start to look like his usual crazy, childish rants.
That having been said, thanks for sticking up for me in your DJ sort of way. But there's one thing you're missing, one vital part about your argument that you didn't notice. I deleted those posts in that sticky thread because I did not want the thread to take any longer than it already does to load. I even deleted mine and GR's posts that did not have images attached to them. I made a thread about why I deleted the posts, which I suggest you read.
PAY ATTENTION - A Black Falcon - 22nd February 2005
Quote:Very few people ever post here anymore! What's the point of trying to make some thought, provoking and deep posts when there's barely anyone to respond to it! If more people would post here I might be a bit more considerate about what I post! As it stands though I'm not because there's simply no incentive to do so!
Yeah, and the lack of posts is a problem, but worthless stuff like that sure isn't going to solve it.
Quote:But OB1 making a sticky thread to post pictures in does? It's kind of sad that that's what brought everyone back. Anyway, I don't care about the thread enough anymore to make a big deal about it, so I'll move on to the next quote.
As I said,
Quote:I wasn't complaining because of the existence of the thread, actually. I was happy to see them out of other posts. I was mostly complaining because of how the two of you had been spamming those stupid pictures in so many threads... it's so annoying... the constant one-word posts, the constant one-smilie posts, now the just-a-drawing posts... IT'S SO STUPID! And now you have a thread for the idiotic things so you have easy access to spam them across the forums EVEN MORE? I did NOT consider that a good thing. THAT is why I was annoyed. Because I DO care about the forum and consider your and OB1's constant idiotic posts bad for it.
Quote:We post stuff like that because there's nothing else to do. Hardly anyone else posts here on any kind of regular basis, maybe 6 in total who do. So what's the point in trying to make a really good though-provoking posts and then hardly making any kind of posts that are pointless? There's no point, because there's only a handful of people who are actually going to reply to it. If more people posted I'm sure that we'd try to harder to make our posts matter, but there's absolutely no incentive to do much better. SO POST! That's all I'm asking for. I seem to be saying that a lot recently...
Sadly, most of our current members don't seem inclined to want to do that.
PAY ATTENTION - Dark Jaguar - 22nd February 2005
OB1, if I offended you in any way please note that was not my intention. I am simply trying to end the squabbling here. I am aware of your reasons for the deletion, but it still wasn't really justified. Text is much smaller than images, and thus the load times were not affected in any significant way by such posts. Also, it would appear EM's comment was actually pretty tame. I can understand how you would take it offensively, but bear in mind I am almost positive he didn't mean it in any sort of offensive light.
I would ask that you read my entire post. Despite what you may think, I really am trying to put an end to this. I am aware some of what I said is speaking of your character in a less than positive light, but I also point out your good side, the part I like having here. The fact of the matter is I want you to stay, but at the same time I must acknowledge the faults that can lead to a lot of anger here. We all have our faults. Yours aren't any worse than anyone else's, but they do seem to the the ones that are the most abbrasive to people here. I've learned to deal with that as well as the rest of the faults here, so honestly I don't care, but I submit that a little more tact and a little less sensitivity would be most helpful. This isn't about who is right or wrong, this is about turning a potential chernobyl into a mere 3 mile island. To that end, ignore percieved insults wherever they may emerge.
To others here, constant complaining about this is not what I would call a solution. I can understand your anger over the deleted posts, but let's just take it in stride. It is nothing worth arguing about. Let it be. You know, lead by example.
To Weltall, indeed such abuses of admin power here are not exactly a good thing. OB1 isn't the only one who did it, as you well know. EM only moved the thread, but to some secret alcove only a few people know about. That is about the same as deletion I'd say.
ABF and OB1, you both have issues with each other. You see the other as a horrible argumentative person very often. I submit that perhaps taking a break from each other is in order. OB1 has taken the first step by deciding to actively ignore ABF's posts. ABF has not made this leap yet, and having spoken with him, I'm aware of his reasons why. He just doesn't like to give in.
The nature of who is right or wrong in those arguments really has no meaning to me. Most people here just ignore it and don't even take sides. ABF is convinced that OB1 needs to be "taught a lesson" even though his method is a rather childish one. OB1 is convinced that ABF is too stubborn (and to an extent he is right) but the main offense is not giving his viewpoint a chance. I've seen enough arguments to know that ABF does make some good points and his viewpoint isn't something to be insulted at every corner.
To both of you, just let it be. OB1 has taken the first step. ABF, you can easily follow by doing the same. However, further than that, do not make fun of each other. That means don't point out any character flaws you may see ABF, that just points out your stubborness. And to OB1, that means that despite what you may think of ABF's points, or how uninformed you believe them to be, don't just insult him over it, not even passively.
Again, I do not wish to incite any more silly arguments. These are the real problems I have noticed. I myself have a personality flaw very similar to their's in that I can't back down from a hopeless argument if my pride is threatened. I think I have managed that well enough that I can start talking with OB1 again without fear of flying off the handle over trivial things. Now then, let's all not become a flame war fest.
I have a feeling some of what I said could lead to more arguments, but I hope the good points I made will be the only thing paid attention to. Any insults you may percieve were not intended. Intention is what matters after all.
Let's not force Weltall's hand, or we'll ALL be Yatta'd!
PAY ATTENTION - OB1 - 22nd February 2005
Have you been visiting this place lately? It's running slower than an [insert mixed metaphor here] these past few days. And counting the number of replies that I deleted or moved from that thread, there were more than 60 in total which makes for a very slow thread. Also, length is an issue as I wanted all of us that were using that thread to have to look through no more than five or so posts to find their images quickly. Again, it's really just one big smiley list. That was my intention from the beginning, and I even told people that the thread was meant just for posting images, which is why I even delete my own non-image posts. As I said before perhaps I should have just moved the posts rather than delete them, but I never anticipated such uproar over such a trivial matter. I thought that making a little sticky thread devoted to emoticon-type images was much more considerate than putting them into the actual smiley list, which some people did a little while back. That kind of ruined the reply box, which is why Ryan took them out.
I blew up at EM because after having to sit through pages of incessant whining about a measly sticky thread he decided to go ahead and move it as well as delete both mine and GR's image posts. It wasn't one single act that pissed me off, it was the culmination of everything up to that point.
And yes I will continue to ignore ABF's posts until he learns to stop being so antagonistic.
PAY ATTENTION - Great Rumbler - 22nd February 2005
Quote:Yeah, and the lack of posts is a problem, but worthless stuff like that sure isn't going to solve it.
What's the point in trying if no one's going to come back? That's my point. We make worhtless stuff because there's no pointing in trying. If people would at least attempt to come back for more than once a week or even SAY that they will if we make better posts THEN WE WILL! There's no point to trying if there's no one to see our attempts.
PAY ATTENTION - OB1 - 22nd February 2005
Yeah we tried doing that last year. I would make several new gaming topics every day, and what would happen is that GR would reply to it, ABF would reply to it, I would reply to them, and unless it turned into a big argument that was that. No real dialogue going on because no one else would want to chime in.
PAY ATTENTION - A Black Falcon - 22nd February 2005
Quote:And yes I will continue to ignore ABF's posts until he learns to stop being so antagonistic.
Generally if I say something I know you'll disagree with to possibly start a debate it's because I hope this time you'll listen to what I have to say instead of dismissing it out of hand and believeing your own spin of the truth... it doesn't turn out that way, true, unfortunately.
Quote:Yeah we tried doing that last year. I would make several new gaming topics every day, and what would happen is that GR would reply to it, ABF would reply to it, I would reply to them, and unless it turned into a big argument that was that. No real dialogue going on because no one else would want to chime in.
Yup. No one else here cares enough to want to talk about such a silly thing as "games" except for OB1, GR, and DJ, sadly... which is why I keep saying we need new members...
But still, I find the worthless stuff annoying, so I say so... I have a right to my opinion...
Quote:The nature of who is right or wrong in those arguments really has no meaning to me. Most people here just ignore it and don't even take sides. ABF is convinced that OB1 needs to be "taught a lesson" even though his method is a rather childish one. OB1 is convinced that ABF is too stubborn (and to an extent he is right) but the main offense is not giving his viewpoint a chance. I've seen enough arguments to know that ABF does make some good points and his viewpoint isn't something to be insulted at every corner.
To both of you, just let it be. OB1 has taken the first step. ABF, you can easily follow by doing the same. However, further than that, do not make fun of each other. That means don't point out any character flaws you may see ABF, that just points out your stubborness. And to OB1, that means that despite what you may think of ABF's points, or how uninformed you believe them to be, don't just insult him over it, not even passively.
Actually, I've thought multiple times over the past couple of months about either blocking OB1's posts or trying to ignore him... I came really close a couple of times a few arguements back when I thought OB1 was being particularly stupid... but in the end I didn't because OB1 makes too many posts that are worth reading for me to block him. As for ignoring him when he says stupid things, I try, but as I said, sometimes I can't not say something... especially when he aims it at me like he has a lot for quite some time now.
Quote:The nature of who is right or wrong in those arguments really has no meaning to me. Most people here just ignore it and don't even take sides. ABF is convinced that OB1 needs to be "taught a lesson" even though his method is a rather childish one. OB1 is convinced that ABF is too stubborn (and to an extent he is right) but the main offense is not giving his viewpoint a chance. I've seen enough arguments to know that ABF does make some good points and his viewpoint isn't something to be insulted at every corner.
Okay, so writing long complaints about someone won't get them to change, that's probably true... but what am I supposed to do, just accept that OB1 cannot be reasoned with and abandon pretty much all chances of having nice long conversations on this site? That's not a good option either, to me... for a long time I kept entering discussions hoping that this time would be the one OB1 listened to what my opinion was... but he didn't too many times and now I've pretty much given up on it.
PAY ATTENTION - EdenMaster - 22nd February 2005
OB1 Wrote:I blew up at EM because after having to sit through pages of incessant whining about a measly sticky thread he decided to go ahead and move it as well as delete both mine and GR's image posts. It wasn't one single act that pissed me off, it was the culmination of everything up to that point.
I told you, I didn't delete your stupid pictures. I moved the thread to the Bo forum, that everyone knows about, where the other attach images thread is. That's why we HAVE an attach images thread.
Whatever, I'm not going to admit I'm wrong and neither will OB1 because neither of us think we are, so I'm just gonna drop it.