Quote:Friday 21st February 2003


INTERVIEW: MIYAMOTO HITS LONDON!

The legendary game designer is joined by the director of Wind Waker for a massive, in-depth interview - get in here now!

19:57 Mass hysteria greeted the arrival of gaming legend Shigeru Miyamoto in London today, for his first ever public appearance in Europe. At the event held in Virgin Megastore on Oxford Street, over a thousand fans crammed together to catch a glimpse of their hero - the man responsible for Mario, Zelda, Donkey Kong and a host of the greatest videogames ever created.

People came from across Europe, with some even camping overnight to ensure they got to meet and greet Mr. Miyamoto. But before this carnage, Mr. Miyamoto was involved in a far more sober affair. Accompanied Eiji Aonuma, the director of Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, he took part in a lengthy roundtable discussion with selected UK journalists.

Before the discussion got underway, however, we were treated to a short film containing clips of forthcoming Nintendo software. Zelda and Metroid Prime we were already familiar with, but astonishing new footage of F-Zero was more than welcome, followed by two nice surprises.

Firstly, extensive footage of Kirby's Air-Ride, which looked so cute, bright and cheerful, it almost made us gag. But in spite of this cutesy aesthetic, it looked a whole lot of fun and we can't wait to play it. And then... Pikmin 2!

Which, sadly, wasn't quite as exciting as we hoped for. It looks exactly the same, for one thing, although we did see the Pikmin carrying a giant rubber duck. Most importantly, we were shown the briefest of glimpses of the two-player mode the game will employ in all its split-screen glory. Very interesting and should be a major feature of the final game.

Once we'd digested this choice selection of media, we turned to matters of greater import, including: Nintendo's stance on violent games, struggling third-party support for GameCube, the appeal of Zelda, and Mr. Miyamoto's philosophical relationship with dog trainers. No, really.

Without further ado, here's the full transcript:

Can you tell us a little about the concept behind the use of wind in the game?

Miyamoto: We initially came up with the idea of oceans and how Link can move - so we thought, why don't we use a ship to ferry him? And in order to do this we needed to have wind, and so we gave the player some control over the wind. That's how we came up with the idea.

We were thinking in terms of the advancement of technology, and while many people focus upon more beautiful graphics, we really wanted to make use of the technology to advance the other areas no-one else was thinking about. And that happened to be the control of the wind, by taking advantage of the high performance GameCube. It's unlike anything else out there.

Were there any ideas or elements you perhaps didn't have time to put in this time?

Miyamoto: First of all, due to time restraints, we had to leave out two stages, which included dungeons. Other than that, most of the ideas were incorporated into the final game.

The new style of Zelda is a radical change and when first shown it sent shockwaves through the industry. With the news of Mario 128 can we expect the same kind of shock?

Miyamoto: We never intended to cause any shockwaves, but we are always trying to make something new. We are, of course, trying to be consistent, but create something new. And with Wind Waker, we were making a new Link. We were confronted with problems by going ahead with making a realistic looking Link initially, and were a little uncomfortable with this. Realistic Link would be expected to move in accordance with how he would in the real world, but in terms of the game that was unnatural, even though in the real world it would be natural. If Link looks and moves realistically, that doesn't necessarily make a good game.

That's the basic argument we had while forming the Link character into its current shape. Talking now about Mario 128, we haven't come to the specific point yet where we've determined how the Mario character will look. I don't plan to create any shockwaves - I'm just always thinking about making perfect gameplay

Has everybody here played the game?

All:Yes!

Miyamoto: Didn't you feel that it felt very natural to control?

All:Yes!

Miyamoto: Phew! [laughs]

Now that you've created the graphic and gameplay engine for Wind Waker, are you going to re-use it?

Miyamoto: It is now taking a long time to come up with the basic engine for whatever we're working on, so if we can make use of existing technology, that's obviously better for me as a producer. As a producer and a games designer, I'm hopeful we can make use of the Wind Waker engine for future games. And since the functionality of the GC is so high I'm sure this will be the case.

Aonuma: We didn't have anything major left over when we finished Wind Waker, but some of the ideas we had that didn't make it into Wind Waker are already integrated into some of our next projects which may or may not be making use of the Wind Waker engine. Is this going to be the new Zelda game? I cannot commit to that.

Given the child-like look of the game versus mass-market thirst for realism, do you see any problems reaching a large-scale audience? How will Zelda appeal?

Miyamoto: We have very popular cartoon movie maker in Japan who is appealing to adults and children alike, and many fans of these animated movies are parents. I don't believe making use of the cartoon style of graphics in Wind Waker is any kind of handicap.

More importantly for Nintendo, we are always trying to produce a variety of different things for a variety of audiences.

The games industry in Japan is suffering hard times and there is a lot of hardship. But on the other hand, looking at the movie industry, we have had different films that have stimulated the market. I don't think it's a good idea just to focus on the games industry. If everybody is getting on the same bandwagon and doing the same thing, that is just minimising and shrinking the market.

What is more important for game design is coming up with unique ideas rather than coming up with something similar - that's boring.

What influences did you have while making the game. What were you watching, reading, doing it in your spare time that inspired creativity?

Miyamoto: We needed to do a lot of different things to stimulate us. When I'm asked that question, I have to say I'm always thinking about games and always communicating those ideas. First and foremost it's important to do things other than games. Nintendo is trying to sell it's own games to existing users, and it's really important for us to appeal to non-gamers in order to expand the market.

What's important for us is building relationships with people in other industries. I have a garden nowadays, so I have a relationship with a professional gardener, and maybe you may not believe it, but I also have relationships with dog trainers, and have some serious conversations about: "What does 'Dog' mean?"

[everyone laughs]

Aonuma: Most days I have to stay in the office until late at night and I don't think that's a very good idea in my experience. So I'm now trying to do new things and take on new challenges. Recently I had a child, a baby boy, and now I'm trying to find new challenges.

It's true to say that I had a month's paternal leave, so if I hadn't taken that maybe Europe could have had Wind Waker earlier! [laughs]

Last year you said Mario Kart was giving you the most trouble of all the games you were working on. Have you resolved this trouble and can you tell us anything about it.

Miyamoto: First of all, Mario Kart was not in today's film, but that's not because it isn't completed, but rather we want to show it at E3. We don't have anything further to say about it. I hate to admit this, but we were so focussed on Wind Waker, we couldn't share resources with Mario Kart.

In previous years, the games Nintendo made were the biggest-selling, most popular mainstream titles on the planet. But tastes have changed and that isn't necessarily the case anymore. Certainly, the biggest game in the West is the ultra-violent GTA: Vice City, so what are your thoughts on such a violent game being so popular, and where do you feel Nintendo now fits into the market in terms of games and business?

Miyamoto: That's a tough question and I really don't have any quick answer. It's obviously very good business sense to make something that is popular in the market but it's not that simple for Nintendo. Nintendo does not make violent games like that.

We are talking about the mass audience, and many people have different their own ways of making use of entertainment. We as the maker always have a responsibility over how our products are used by the mass market. There are reasons why no companies are willing to market GTA as their product in Japan. At least people have a sense of the danger of the current situation.

More importantly, we need to find something that is a substitute for Grand Theft Auto, in terms of a game that sells. It's our mission to find an alternative that is unique and non-violent. One of the answers is the connectivity offered by GameCube and GBA.

In comparison to PS2 and Xbox there's a smaller level of third-party support for GameCube. There's a perception in Europe that Nintendo faces an uphill struggle in convincing consumers to buy GameCube because of this. What are your thoughts on this?

Miyamoto: If you are comparing the hardware, in terms of functionality you can of course make similar games, hence many titles becoming multiplatform. It may be good for audiences, but when it comes to the unique attraction of a platform, I really don't think multiplatform games help this cause.

While it is good to have many different titles on Nintendo, I think what is more important is that we make titles only Nintendo customers can play. That is why it's very important for Nintendo to come up with the best first-party titles and create unique entertainment experiences.

For example, Nintendo is heavily pursuing the connectivity between GBA and GC, and this year we are going to introduce the GB Player which lets you play GBA games on a TV via GameCube. And also, we have e-Reader in the US, so you can get data from a piece of paper. This is the unique system Nintendo is constantly trying to create and I'm positive more and more third-parties are becoming interested in these unique opportunities.

Nintendo is offering this more positively than ever. I can't really give specific examples right now, but we are working with EA on this, and developing closer ties with Namco and Sega to create these opportunities.

Do you see the key franchises like Mario and Zelda going on forever, or do you foresee a time when you won't be able to go any further. Specifically with Zelda, is there a feature you've always wanted to include but have never been able to due to technology?

Miyamoto: I really do not think there will be an end to new ideas being incorporated into Mario and Zelda games. As for Wind Waker, we've incorporated many ideas from previous games, but I don't think people will see it as re-hashed.

Aonuma: I think if another person is going to take charge of the whole idea-making of a new Zelda game, I think it can be a totally new product. There will be no ending - we will keep thinking about Zelda in new ways.

Miyamoto: Lack of ideas isn't a concern. What is, is that Nintendo has a huge amount of important franchises. Most of our team is occupied in creating sequels and that situation is kind of troublesome. The good news is that new people are growing fast and I can trust them to working on the latest games. Therefore we still have time to work on new challenges.

But it's always the danger with a company like Nintendo, that's there's always pressure to work on sequels. But Retro has worked on Metroid, and Sega is working on F-Zero, so in that sense more and more third-parties can become involved in creating games with Nintendo's own characters. And, of course, you've seen Link feature in Namco's Soul Calibur II, so there are many, many different ways to work with third-parties.

What about Link appearing in Soul Calibur II? That's a very violent game.

Miyamoto: We are not concerned by this. Namco was very good at identified what type of Link character should appear and what he should do. Besides, Link as a fighting character has already been established in Smash Bros.


Nintendo games have always been hugely anticipated and praised in advance. The Wind Waker is the first NCL title to receive something of a negative backlash thanks to the visual style. What were your reactions to this?

Miyamoto: If people's reactions had been negative after they played the game that would have concerned me, but before selling the game all we can do is do our best at what we believe in. Even though there is negative opinion, at least people are talking about Wind Waker, which is better than no-one talking about it!

We have already released it in Japan, of course, but as for the US and UK releases, although the content remains the same, we have fine-tuned the game balance of the game in response to feedback from Japanese users.

Could you please explain how the different Zelda games tie together and whether Link is the same in each game.

Miyamoto: In the long history of Hyrule, there are a number of Links which have made contributions. We'd need to write long papers indeed to cover all the background of this.

Aonuma: Many people ask me why I chose to have Link's sister for the first time. We really wanted to have a motivation for an ordinary boy to get involved in a big adventure. We thought having to rescue his sister would be a good trigger.

Previously Link has been seen as simply born to fight evil, but now the new Link is an ordinary boy who, suddenly, becomes involved in an adventure.

In past Zelda games, Zelda was still the ordinary boy but he was supposed to fight evil. The most important thing is that players are growing along with Link. To do this, Link must be ordinary to start with then must meet with destiny so it becomes clear how he can evolve.

Johnny Minkley

Quote:February 21, 2003 - Earlier today Nintendo producer/director Shigeru Miyamoto and director Eiji Aonuma showed off two new GameCube projects to the European press. The first, Kirby's Air Ride, a unique, colorful 3D romp which may or may not be based on the cancelled N64 game of the same name, was described as sickeningly cute. No further details were revealed.
The other, the previously revealed but little known Pikmin 2, was said to look nearly identical to the original game.

Pikmin, released last year for GameCube, is Nintendo's attempt at a strategy game of sorts. It starred players as a marooned space man who must meet and then command an army of alien creatures, the Pikmin, to do his bidding and help him escape the oxygen-less planet.

Pikmin 2, according to reports, will at least have a new split-screen multiplayer mode in which two players can manipulate the environments, and the Pikmin, at once. Apparently the hero will now also be able to carry items from place to place.

More details for both games will likely be unveiled next week. Stay tuned.

Quote:Miyamoto: If people's reactions had been negative after they played the game that would have concerned me, but before selling the game all we can do is do our best at what we believe in.

Quote:Miyamoto: We never intended to cause any shockwaves, but we are always trying to make something new. We are, of course, trying to be consistent, but create something new. And with Wind Waker, we were making a new Link. We were confronted with problems by going ahead with making a realistic looking Link initially, and were a little uncomfortable with this. Realistic Link would be expected to move in accordance with how he would in the real world, but in terms of the game that was unnatural, even though in the real world it would be natural. If Link looks and moves realistically, that doesn't necessarily make a good game.

That's the basic argument we had while forming the Link character into its current shape. Talking now about Mario 128, we haven't come to the specific point yet where we've determined how the Mario character will look. I don't plan to create any shockwaves - I'm just always thinking about making perfect gameplay

Quote:
Miyamoto: We have very popular cartoon movie maker in Japan who is appealing to adults and children alike, and many fans of these animated movies are parents. I don't believe making use of the cartoon style of graphics in Wind Waker is any kind of handicap.

More importantly for Nintendo, we are always trying to produce a variety of different things for a variety of audiences.

The games industry in Japan is suffering hard times and there is a lot of hardship. But on the other hand, looking at the movie industry, we have had different films that have stimulated the market. I don't think it's a good idea just to focus on the games industry. If everybody is getting on the same bandwagon and doing the same thing, that is just minimising and shrinking the market.

What is more important for game design is coming up with unique ideas rather than coming up with something similar - that's boring.

Quote:Originally posted by Nintendarse
No.

No!

Nooooooooo!

This is Miyamoto's problem. The point of the video game industry is not to please the people that buy the game, but to have MORE people buy the game. Sure, the quality of the game can extend the life of a franchise (this is why Mario and Link have not died yet), but sales are ABSOLUTELY dependent upon people's reactions BEFORE playing the game, and you can't go around having everyone play the game. Some games just aren't instantly enjoyable, while other short impressions are tainted by these preconceived ideas. Thus, you must impress the mass consumers instantly. Not deter. Nor pander. Nor reject. It's sad that the very thing that makes me love Nintendo is the very thing that makes the company 3rd place in the United States.

Quote:The cel-shaded look has been well-received in Japan, but not in the western world. If Nintendo were to take your advice then their innovation would all but dissapear, and then all we would be left with are graphical improvements over past games.

Quote: It's very unfortunate the so many people in this country can't stand anything new and original, but I'd rather see Nintendo die trying to enliven the industry with innovative and original titles than see the market continue down this stale and repetitive path.

Quote:Miyamoto clearly doesn't seem to care about the public opinion of his games... which is both why they are so unique and almost always great, and why in the last few years Nintendo has been falling farther and farther behind...

No, WW's look clearly is accepted in Japan... but still, the game didn't sell as well there as it should have... like Metroid here -- the game was great and people loved the look, but it sold poorly... or Eternal Darkness...

Nintendo has problems everywhere, and it just can't be all blamed on graphics or game styles... but it is a part of it, of course. Other problems account for the rest of the reason they are behind.

Quote:Yeah. Riiiight.... that statement there is just so dumb that I don't know how to begin...

Umm... so wanting them to make games that would be immediately accepted in the western world is a terrible idea that kills innovation? Do you honestly believe that? Its absurd... completely ridiculous. It would help fore them to at least make an effort at it... though much better marketing and doing more to change the not too good public opinion of Nintendo needs to be done too...

Quote:Um, I just don't see how you think that people hate it just because its different... I don't know who you are referring to there, honestly. It sure doesn't have anything to do with why I don't like the graphics in WW... as I've explained way too many times and won't do again right now.

Quote:Miyamoto doesn't care about the public opinion on his games? You're on crack. In fact, he was very surprised by the negative reception of WW here in the states. They're all for it in Japan, but not over here. Why would he be surprised by this if he didn't care?

Quote:How is it dumb? It's completely true! The ones that complain about WW's look only want OoT but with better graphics! Do you deny that? Come on, now.

Quote:So you don't hate it beacause it's different... you simply hate it because it looks different.

Quote:Umm... well, sort of... but its not just the fact that the graphics were changed. The graphics changed dramatically from the SNES to the GB to the N64 and I liked those changes... I just don't like the look of this one... not just because its different... sure thats part of it, but I know they could have changed the style while still making it look like a Zelda game should... they didn't...

Oh, and DJ, yeah that answer was kind of strange...

Quote:Okay... so he does care about public opinion. But not public opinion in the western world... or, at least, he has no clue what public opinion here is. Because if he did understand western public opinion, he would have expected exactly the reaction that WW got...

Quote:"So-called" innovation? If WW looked more like the SW2001 demo then it would be a completely different game, no doubt about it. They didn't simply replace all of the models and environments with cartoons. It's not just a new coat of paint. The cartoony graphics have a large impact on gameplay.

Quote:The style didn't change from the SNES to GB games.

Quote:It's much more likely that he doesn't quite understand exactly what Western audiences want. Most of us want hyper-realism, and lots of violence. Screw that cartoon shit! That's for babies!

Quote:Maybe... but not totally different. After all, WW gameplay is similar to OoT's, but improved... I'd imagine that a more realistic game would do the same, but in a different way...

Quote:Yes it did... Link looks VERY different in LA then he did in LttP (ingame)... and LA looks slightly less cartoonish than LttP did...

Quote:Thus, innovation largely has to do with the existing, in that innovation looks at what the current trends are, the current marketplace is, and does something that is accurately beyond the horizon of these trends. This "accurately" is what differentiates the "innovative" from the "different." Perhaps WW is innovative, but in the wrong direction for the audience. The intent of innovation is to get a big "WOW" out of the audience, and the sales numbers for Zelda in Japan indicate that this "WOW" does not exist. Thus, relative to the perception audience, Zelda:WW is not innovative...and the perception of the audience is really what matters.

Quote:I have to agree with OB1 in that Nintendo should continue to innovate, but it should do so knowing that it must innovate relative to the audience. Not OB1.

Quote:...WW is a completely different game? I doubt that. Have you played it? Peer Schneider of IGN states in his video preview, "...It's vintage Zelda. The gameplay is just like it used to be...yes it has cartoon elements,...but it won't get on your nerves." I have a hard time believing that a SW20002 Zelda game would stray any more from the Zelda gameplay. In addition, why must Nintendo innovate in a direction that disagrees with the audience when it could innovate the Zelda gameplay in a direction that agrees with the audience?

Quote:Is "The Matrix" innovative?

Quote:Originally posted by OB1
[B]"So-called" innovation? If WW looked more like the SW2001 demo then it would be a completely different game, no doubt about it. They didn't simply replace all of the models and environments with cartoons. It's not just a new coat of paint. The cartoony graphics have a large impact on gameplay.

Quote:Originally posted by Nintendarse
Obviously, you've stopped listening to my arguments (or at least processing them), and right about now, I'm about to do the same thing...counting backwards from 10...9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2...1

Quote:Okay.

Calm.

Let's do this one point at a time:

Innovation

Resolved: Is Wind Waker Innovative?

As I understand, you are arguing that, yes, Wind Waker is innovative.

I am arguing essentially the opposite. My argument is based on my observation that innovation is not an absolute quantity (42, for example, is an absolute quantity). Like "fun," innovation is subjective.

Please, make your point. Then I will make mine.

Quote:Originally posted by OB1
If I responded to each and every comment from every single individual here then I would have to spend all of my free time at Tendo City..

Quote:Sure, it would have been a very different game.

Quote:They changed the character model a bit. That's it.

Quote:The game isn't selling poorly in Japan because of the visual style. The Japanese weren''t turned off by the great visual style of WW as most Westerners were. The Gamecube is just terribly unpopular over there. Look at Mario Sunshine's sales. That game was the perfect evolution of Mario 64 (which was a huge seller in Japan), but it sold like crap (for a Mario game). Part of that was because of Nintendo's bad marketing (some people thought that it was some sort of weird-ass paint game), but also because of the Gamecube's inpopularity over there.

Quote:What? That makes no sense whatsoever. Hey I think it would be great if Nintendo made games specifically with my tastes in mind, but that's not going to happen any time soon. And believe it or not, I'm not the only person in the world who thinks that WW's visual change was quite innovative. Most of the gaming media shares my views on this subject.

Quote:WTF is with this whole lightbulb analogy? It doesn't make any sense. And the gameplay has indeed changed quite a bit because of the graphics (of course it's still Zelda, but that doesn't mean that it's identical to OoT in every way). The way Link controls, the way fights were designed (flipping over an enemy real fast and landing right behind him and slashing him with your sword would look ridiculous if it were a more realistic-looking game), and even the dungeon designs were built around the visual style. Nintendo didn't just change the look of the game because they thought it would be nifty. This isn't just OoT cel-shaded. It's the difference between live-action and animation. There are certain things that you can do in animation that would look out of place in a live-action feature. The same applies to Wind Waker. Everything in Zelda obeys the laws of that world's cartoon physics.

Quote:I know that you said that you would have wanted WW to look more like Zelda in the GB manuals, but you also said that the game is not innovative as did a few other people who do want it to look more like the SW 2001 demo. You're right, they could have made the same kind of game with the visual style of from the GB manuals, but that would pretty much just be changing Link's model.

Quote:Innovation is subjective (which, in Physics terms, is "relative")
We must choose a reference frame (like in physics)
The reference frame should be the consumer
From th reference frame of the consumer, Zelda is not innovative
Therefore, for all intents and purposes, Zelda is not innovative.

Quote:Originally posted by Dark Lord Neo
With that post count it looks like you already do

Quote:Originally posted by Nintendarse
I know it's my fault that I can't properly communicate my idea, but you're not making it easier for me with your sarcasm.

The line of logic goes like this:

Innovation is subjective (which, in Physics terms, is "relative")
We must choose a reference frame (like in physics)
The reference frame should be the consumer
From th reference frame of the consumer, Zelda is not innovative
Therefore, for all intents and purposes, Zelda is not innovative.

Please don't mock me. I'm trying here, but clearly I'm struggling with th idea as well.

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
I wouldn't say WW is innovative because it uses a new graphical style... the gameplay sure isn't innovative... is it different than the gameplay in OoT/MM? Yes... but not so dramatically that its truly innovative... its just a small change from that game. As for the graphics... I don't see how making them in a cartoon style is innovative... different? Sure... but innovation? No... plenty of games before have used cartoon-styled graphics...

Quote:Oh... and while Nintendarse's posts aren't easy to follow, they make more sense than yours do, OB1...

Quote:You sure seem to think that Nintendo should do things according to your wishes...

Quote:I just don't see how WW is so dramatically innovative when it, at heart, is just a improved version of OoT's system... that doesn't seem to qualify as innovation to me... it was innovative in OoT, but not now... it does change things, but not hugely...

Quote:No it wouldn't... I don't think that a game based on that graphical style would be all cel-shaded like WW is... and it'd be better for it... Yes, that probably would have been a much better style for Nintendo to use. Just graphical? Partly... but graphics, as you say OB1, affect many parts of the game... not so dramatically as you want to think, but they do. And that style was way better than the one they used... the game itsself? It'd probably end up similar... but it'd be better for it with graphics that would actually be one that, IMO, are right for a Zelda game... unlike the ones that it has... I'd still prefer the OoT-ish spaceworld '01 graphics most of all, but ones based on the GB games would be worlds better than what we got...

Quote:Hmm... I don't know. Is innovation subjective? Mostly... but it doesn't require the consumer recognising that its innovative for it to be innovative. Plenty of things have been ignored by consumers and were innovative... also, innovation usually (not always, but usually) connotates a positive emotion about the game... unlike what general public opinion is about Zelda WW. So its not innovative to them... is it innovative otherwise? Not especially, given how it doesn't really do anything truly new...

Quote:Mostly... but it doesn't require the consumer recognising that its innovative for it to be innovative.

Quote:He is now considered to be one of the most influential and innovative directors who ever lived. But I guess that his movies weren't innovative until people started accepting them, right?

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
I'll respond to the rest later... but your last comment just made no sense at all... um, you agree with me and then say i disagreed with you...

I said this.


Umm... yeah, I'm sure that when I said that I meant that it has to be publicly accepted to be innovative. Yup.

Quote:Originally posted by Nintendarse
You're absolutely correct. And that is where the popularity v. innovative relationship model (the one I'm talking about) hits a snag...when we have hindsight. Although it can be explained:

Because we set our reference frame to be the percepton consumer, certain factors seem to slip through the cracks. I mean, objectively (with hindsight), the man was innovative, but, if you're strictly following the relativity model, he was not perceived to be innovative until he became popular, and until that point, he was not innovative.

That didn't make sense, did it?

But, I guess what I'm trying to say is that, for the sake of someone looking at innovation from a sales perspective (how much is this innovation going to excite the audience, creating more sales?), the perspective that I'm talking about works.

P.S. Has anyone here seen "Office Space?" Doesn't OB1 remind you of the "Jump to Conclusions Mat" guy?

Quote:in·no·va·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (n-vshn)
n.
1. The act of introducing something new.

2. Something newly introduced.

Quote:You said "innovation usually (not always, but usually) connotates a positive emotion about the game... unlike what general public opinion is about Zelda WW. "

Am I missing something here?

Quote:Because we set our reference frame to be the percepton consumer, certain factors seem to slip through the cracks. I mean, objectively (with hindsight), the man was innovative, but, if you're strictly following the relativity model, he was not perceived to be innovative until he became popular, and until that point, he was not innovative.

Quote:But none have created a truley believable, interactive cartoon.

Quote:You're just mad that you're always so wrong and can never effectively prove your points.

Quote:Isn't that what everybody wants? Don't you want Nintendo to offer online play with their games so that you can play against (and get beaten by) other people across the globe?

Quote: Naturally OoT is more of an innovation than WW is since it was the first 3-D Zelda game. But WW managed to create a fully interactive cartoon, and that's not just a cosmetic change. Like Miyamoto has clearly explained in the past, the new visual style gave the dev team more freedom with the gameplay, and I'm sure you'll know what he's talking about once you get the game.

Quote:Well that's your problem then. You don't have to like the visual style, that's perfectly fine. I myself can't stand the art in most PC RPGs (hello?? There are other things to draw inspiration from other than D&D) and that lame-ass Gauntlet franchise that you love so much (*shudder*). Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Just don't call the visual style "wrong" since the man behind the change is the same person that created the friggin' franchise.

Quote:Um... yes? How about the fact that before I said that, I said that public recognition (and thus approval...) isn't necessary? Um... or did you only read the second half of that paragraph or something?

Quote:By what I said there, I meant that for people to RECOGNIZE it as innovation they generally have to think the product is good...

Quote:I'd put that pretty definitely in the realm of opinion... given that a lot of games have done cartoonish stuff... I don't know which offhand, but I'm sure something has done that before... its not like Nintendo invented the idea of doing a game in a cartoonish style, after all...

Quote:D&D is cool. You can never have too many D&D inspired games... as long as they're good, like they are...

Oh, and my opinion is right and yours is wrong. As usual... ...

In my opinion its wrong... thats the best way I can easily describe it...

Quote:In my opinion its wrong... thats the best way I can easily describe it...

Quote:Perhaps you should learn how not to contradict yourself all of the time.

Quote:So... what's your point then? Why does that matter?

Quote:Cel-shading has been done before, but no one has ever used it as ingeniously as Nintendo has. They've truley created a fully interactive cartoon. It's all about the animation.

Quote:I still say that the changes in Zelda TWW aren't innovative but are just more normal improvements that go in sequels... sequels can change stuff and improve games without innovating. That's what happened in WW... its a big change, but not innovative because it HAS been done before... or at least things like it have, if not exactly this.