Tendo City

I found it to be a great game myself, but when I found out what I thought would be the midway point was actually right near the end, the enjoyment level dropped by a large amount. I was then forced to realize that dungeons I thought were just the first half dungeons were in fact all the dungeons in the game, and those dungeons, while fine in challenge for the first half, were way too easy for the last half. More than that, length matters to me. I don't expect it to be THAT long, but the length of WW was just too short. I would rather they delayed it for several more months and have a decent length game forever on after than have it released a few months sooner and have a way too short game forever after. I no longer have any beef with Nintendo delays after seeing what it's like without them.

Again, the game was GREAT, but it felt unfinished. Had they had a bunch more dungeons after that which were much harder it would have been perfect. They could have had a dungeon for each triforce piece. Maybe instead of 8 pieces, they could have like 4. Still you have to sail, so the fun of sailing is still there. Removed though is the very stupid fishing for treasure thing which is replaced by a strange island where you have to figure out how to get in via different and puzzling ways. Just to point out how much I realized it wasn't the finished product I think Miyamoto would rather have done, you can tell they WANTED to have a dungeon for the 3rd pearl instead of just GIVING it to you. As an example of how easy it was in retrospect, the stupid targetting system for stuff like the hookshot and grappling hook just gave away WAY too much of a hint. And yes, a couple more city populated islands would have been nice, though MM level detail isn't needed in my eyes (Majora's Mask was great, but always having that level of detail is probably not doable, plus it's not like no one had personality). Due to this, I still enjoyed the game, but OOT is still my fave 3D Zelda.

Oh, and of course you can fit more in optical disks, but trust me, the size of a game is so very VERY small compaired to all the stuff like textures and so on that actually take up space that the media has no realistic bearing on game length. They could easily make a game the size of any current gen game on the N64, just with a lot less voice and textures. FF7, minus the FMVs, and with some texture compressing (no real need to reduce quality, considering FF7's texture quality level), oh and some pre-rendered background quality reduction ala RE2, could easily fit on N64. Note I said nothing about maps or monsters or the gameplay, because when it comes to those things (ESPECIALLY the main game play mechanics) they take up like, I mean, wow, so small a space. On a pie chart, it's a SLIVER! That's NOT exxageration! A SLIVER! So believe me when I say that it's completely ignorant of someone to say "well since it's on a disk now they can make the game biggerer". They can make the game look nicer and sound better, but that's it. If anyone managed to fill a whole optical disk, even a mini-CD, with nothing BUT pure game mechanics, map design, and various character/creature stats... Well, either that's the largest game EVER designed, or it's a totally inefficient programing group making that game.

once again, i understand that optical disk storage does not necessarily mean that the game can be longer, which is why i put it together with the "easier to develop for machine" part in my first post. my logic was that since it takes a shorter amount of time to make a game (easier to develop for machine, nintendo said that the ease of development for GC would cut down development time for games), if they spent the same amount of time, and had more space that 64 megs, they could fit in the textures and sounds for more levels, without compromising the overall sound and texture quality of the game (which would likely occur if they tried to compress them). does that make sense? i'm sorry if i didn't make myself clear enough in my first two posts on the subject. i'm in no way saying that the game code would require more space, only that they would have more room to add more unique textures and sounds for the added unique areas.

obviously i have different taste in games than a lot of people here, because the character interaction in MM was what really made the game, to me, almost better than OoT. ask me which one i like better on two separate days and you'll get two separate answers. there are other factors that lead to my love of MM: the slightly gritty atmosphere, the brillent dungeon designs, etc... but these are balanced out by OoTs more dungeons and epic feel.

i don't believe that the only way to improve WW is by adding more character interaction, but more of it, among other improvements would be greatly welcomed. DJ gave some good examples of ways the game could have been fleshed out that i think are very good. and i think had his ideas been in the game, i wouldn't be so up in arms about them turning their backs on ideas presented in MM (mainly NPC interaction, although shape shifting was really cool).

Ah yes, hearing THAT what you said makes much more sense. Yes, having more space most assuredly does mean more detail.

Disc space doesn't really matter that much. If it was that important then Jaguar games would look better than N64 games.

ok, OB1, since you insist on being difficult, let me ask you this: systems with identical specs, neither more powerful at rendering graphics than the other, and both are capable of rendering large, high quality textures, both have a game come out for them, and both versions of the game are identical, not a single aspect has been cut from either version. system A uses 3.5 floppys, that hold a whopping 1.44 megs, as it's media. system B uses DVD's, holding an equally impressive 4 gigs. this game contains plenty of textures and music, which one will look and sound better?

As I said, though gameplay can be stored on very small mediums (actually, floppy is too small for even game code these days), the larger disks obviously can result in much better looking and sounding games, for the reasons already stated.

Oh now that's being realistic. Comparing floppies to DVDs.

Of course disc space matters, but not as much as you think. Things like high-quality sound and FMV take up tons of space, not textures and models. It certainly helps, but WW would have looked the exact same if it had used 20GB optical discs. You can store more high-res textures in a larger capacity disc, but if the system has a low texture cache and RAM then it won't matter. That is the point I was trying to make.

And of course OB1 also makes some logical points there, which leads me to believe this is an argument when there is no disagreement at all. Thus, it's already over because everyone agrees. One last point, textures these days do take up a lot of space. Not nearly as much as FMV and audio tracks, but much more than the models themselves and the rest of the game code. That's why video cards now have 256MB of RAM. Though OB1 is of course dead on about textures on disk only being able to be stored for so much in the cache (though having a lot to switch through does mean more diverse areas for instance, or monsters should a lot be set up to appear by themselves or only with certain others).

I'll shut up now before my starting point is lost. Everyone here seems to pretty much get the basic idea. No need to continue this since we all pretty much agree.

Now then, back to MM and WW, a SENSIBLE pointless argument!

I never really considered this to be an argument...

Sounded like one.... Sometimes you have an amazing ability to sound aggresive when you say you aren't.

You're confusing me with someone else, as always. You have a real knack for not being able to distinguish between different posters when you think back on a thread. Go re-read this whole page and you'll see how very unaggressive I was.

Hmm. Long thread. Haven't even started it yet. *doesn't read much*

First. Most everything I have read does indeed say that it is 80,000. :(

Next. Disc space. I just don't see why this is so vital as long as its close... this isn't like carts with a massive, orders-of-magnitude difference, after all! So yeah, I agree that Nintendo's discs being smaller isn't bad at all. I'd say that in many ways its good, given how there is ABSOLUTELY NO Gamecube piracy vs the easy game piracy/copying on PS2 and X-BOX!

Majora's Mask... hmm, we have discussed this many times.

Its a truly great game. Unique, challenging, interesting (though a bit small... more than balanced by how great the game looks, though!) world, lots of sidequests... but its just too frusterating to be tolerable enough to stand for long enough to finish!

I still say that 80,000 simply isn't possible.

I still think they just meant Japanese sales.

That wasn't what it sounded like, but 80,000 would be about right for sales in Japan.

Makes the most sense.

No, I make the most sense!

My wrists hurt from typing all day.

Yeah, just sales in Japan would make a lot of sense...

Hmm, I better ask Miyamoto the next time I see him.

my wrists hurt from mas...uh...typing all day.

Mas...ticating?

What does mastication have to do with someone's wrists? I mean, managing the forks and such to get food TO the mouth might eventually take a toll but...

Yes, DJ, of course... :)

Of course what?

*pops into thread*

Great Rumbler: Hey, guys, what's going on?

DJ: Oh, nothing much, big guy is masticating.

Great Rumbler: Uhh...okay.

OB1: When did that happen?

GR: What?

OB1: Never mind.

Jeremy: Gotcha.