Tendo City

That "evidence" is of course the "mobile weapons lab trailers"

"But", you say, "what about those plans for and/or centrifuges found buried in a scientists' yard?"

That stuff was buried in 1991 during or after the first Gulf War. And stayed there until the guy dug it up for us. Sorry, but pre-Gulf War "evidence" is stupid because back then he actually had a chem/bio program... unlike now. And I'd say that they are actually more proof that he had nothing now-- they were still in the ground!

Anyway... on to the "WMD lab trailers".

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/09/intern...AP.html?hp

Since no one here bothered to do the FREE SIGNUP required to read the NY Times site, I'll post the whole thing.

Quote:Iraqi Trailers Said to Make Hydrogen, Not Biological Arms

By DOUGLAS JEHL

WASHINGTON, Aug. 8 — Engineering experts from the Defense Intelligence Agency have come to believe that the most likely use for two mysterious trailers found in Iraq was to produce hydrogen for weather balloons rather than to make biological weapons, government officials say.

The classified findings by a majority of the engineering experts differ from the view put forward in a white paper made public on May 28 by the C.I.A. and the Defense Intelligence Agency, which said that the trailers were for making biological weapons.

That report had dismissed as a "cover story" claims by senior Iraqi scientists that the trailers were used to make hydrogen for the weather balloons that were then used in artillery practice.

A Defense Department official said the alternative views expressed by members of the engineering team, not yet spelled out in a formal report, had prompted the Defense Intelligence Agency to "pursue additional information" to determine whether those Iraqi claims were indeed accurate.

Officials at the C.I.A. and the Defense Department said today that the two intelligence agencies still stood by the May 28 finding, which President Bush has cited as evidence that Iraq had a biological weapons program. The engineering teams' findings, which officials from the Defense Department and other agencies would discuss only on the condition of anonymity, add a new layer to disputes within the intelligence community about the trailers found by allied forces in Iraq in April and May.

The State Department's intelligence branch, which was not invited to take part in the initial review, disputed the findings in a memorandum on June 2. The fact that American and British intelligence analysts with direct access to the evidence were disputing the claims included in the C.I.A. white paper was first reported in June, along with the analysts' concern that the evaluation of the mobile units had been marred by a rush to judgment.

But it had not previously been known that a majority of the Defense Intelligence Agency's engineering team had come to disagree with the central finding of the white paper: that the trailers were used for making biological weapons.

"The team has decided that in their minds, there could be another use, for inefficient hydrogen production, most likely for balloons," a Defense Department official said.

The Defense Intelligence Agency's engineering teams had not concluded their work in Iraq at the time the white paper was drafted, and so their views were not taken into account at that time, the government officials said. They said the engineering teams had discussed their findings in meetings in Washington in June and again last month.

"We stand by the white paper," the Defense Department official said. "But based on the assessment of the engineering team, it has caused us to pursue additional information about possible alternative uses for the trailers."

A C.I.A. official who spoke on the condition of anonymity said the agency was "continuing to gather more information about the labs, but we stand behind the white paper."

Since the white paper was made public in May, new information suggesting that the trailers might have been used for making hydrogen has come from Iraqi officials interrogated by American military officers in Iraq, a military officer said today. Those Iraqi officials have repeated the claims of Iraqi scientists that the trailers were used to fill weather balloons, said the officer, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

Another government official from a different agency said the issue of the trailers had prompted deep divisions within the Defense Intelligence Agency. The official said members of the engineering team had been angry that the agency issued the joint white paper with the C.I.A. before their own work was completed.

The official said the question of how that had happened was being examined by the defense agency's inspector general as part of a broader inquiry that began in June.

A spokesman for the intelligence agency, Don Black, said he could not comment on the work of the inspector general.

The Bush administration has said the two trailers are evidence that Saddam Hussein was hiding a program for biological warfare. In the white paper made public in May, it detailed its case even while conceding discrepancies in the evidence and a lack of hard proof.

Senior administration officials have acknowledged that the United States has found neither biological agents nor undisputed evidence that the trailers were used to make such arms. They have said that intelligence analysts in Washington and Baghdad reached their conclusion about the trailers after analyzing, and rejecting, alternative theories of how they could have been used.

That view, described as a consensus of opinion with the C.I.A. and the Defense Intelligence Agency, was presented to the White House before it was made public.

At that time, a senior official who examined the evidence in detail and concluded that the trailers were used for biological weapons said, "The experts who have crawled over this again and again can come up with no other plausible legitimate use."

That official said the agencies had rejected the theory put forward by Iraqi scientists who said one of the units was used to produce hydrogen.

Today, a Defense Department official said of Iraq, "There is not doubt in our minds that they had mobile biological weapons trailers." But the official said there was disagreement within the Defense Intelligence Agency about whether those found so far were used to produce biological weapons or hydrogen.

The engineering team that has come to believe the trailers were used to produce hydrogen includes experts whose task was to assess the trailers from a purely technical standpoint, as opposed to one based on other sources of intelligence. Skeptical experts had previously cited a lack of equipment in the trailers for steam sterilization, normally a prerequisite for any kind of biological production.

Bush administration officials have said the most compelling information that the trailers were used for making biological weapons has come from a human source, an Iraqi scientist who described the trailers and what he said was their weapon-making role to American experts months before the trailers were discovered.

The six-page report that was made public in May, "Iraqi Mobile Biological Warfare Agent Production Plants," called discovery of the trailers "the strongest evidence to date that Iraq was hiding a biological warfare program."

Senior administration officials have said repeatedly that the White House has not put pressure on the intelligence community in any way on the content of its white paper, or on the timing of its release.

Summary: Iraqi leadership has, since discovery of said trailers, said they were for hydrogen production for weather balloons. US scientists now think they were telling the truth all along.

And there goes the one shred of "proof" Bush ever found.

Now if only the idiotic American people would wake up and realize how badly their president lied to their faces for well over a year.

Saddam probaily had weapons , but there was no evidence,No significant proof to Justify the alligations Bush charged with. Saddam Hussein waisnt a eminant threat and attacking Iraq causing the death of 6,000 Iraqis some whome were children like the little Ali kid who lossed his legs and his entire family to a U.S air strike was not Necessary.260 soliders on the U.S side have died, 56 of which after hostilities sopposedly ended.

You were lucky Saddam Hussein Killed over fast if his armies were not so cowardly you could still be fighting a costly war right now with higher death tolls.

Your homeland sercurity is in a Crunch for funding due to the high cost of the war.The Iraq Drama has wounded your relations with everyone even the brittish public who are now Inquiering into PM Blair for the scientist suicide after he was revealed on tv and accussed of exaderating weapons claims.

On a related, but different, note... my analysis of why Bush does policy the way he is. Based on what I've read in places like Time Magazine and from stuff like Al Gore's speech last week (great speech, by the way... but I doubt anyone else here watches C-Span? :) )

'Sadaam is trying to buy nuclear materials from several African nations"

Junior said something like that in his last State of the Union address. He said that Sadaam was trying to buy nuclear material from some African countries, even though the CIA knew that the intelligence was highly suspect to the point that they eventually figured out that it was a forgery... yet despite that our idiot said it in his State of the Union address.

That is called lying. A much, much worse kind of lying than Clinton's, which were to cover a stupid personal mistake... that lie was to get us to go to war. Much more serious and criminal.

He also, of course, lied every day for about a year and a half as he said that he had proof Sadaam had WMD and that the inspections weren't working -- the CIA had intelligence that put ... more than sufficient ... doubt (read: once we got in there we learned that they were all completely false) into both of those ideas, but he'd never, ever let "truth" stop him.


Some people just say "Bush is a moron, so its not his fault". Or "his advisors say it and he believes". Sorry... but WRONG. He may be dumb, but he's not STUPID. He DID graduate from Yale and law school, after all... he IS intelligent.

His problem is that he knows what is right. Not like, he thinks he knows what is right but will listen when people say in reports what the truth is. He knows. Far, far before he knows any facts. He KNOWS WHAT IS RIGHT. He KNOWS that Sadaam is evil, has WMD deployed all over his nation, and has citizens who will welcome us with open arms. He KNOWS this so it is TRUE... and whatever the agencies (intelligence, forestry, foreign affairs, economics, labor, whatever...) say is silly lies which we must correct to reflect the truth, of course.

This is, of course, just as true about his approach to domestic policy... how else do we get a tax cut "which will work" by giving HUGE cuts to the top 5%, the very group least likely to spend it on things that will actually help our economy... and then when it miserably fails GETTING ANOTHER ONE WITH THE SAME MORONIC RHETORIC?

Bush knows what is the right thing to do about taxes -- give breaks to his nice, nice friends who helped give him SO much money to get him here... and himself, of course. He is quite rich too. Helping the economy? Just like the idiotic stories about how we were invading Iraq to save the Iraqi people, cover lies to placate the masses... because, of course, they know a lot of those stupid masses will listen. :(

Oh... and Weltall, not participating here because you know you can't win? :)

If bush actually had been better prepared to handel post war Iraq maybe things wouldnt be this critacle. But Murder and rape is so high in Baghdad even the police walk the streets in fear more people get mugged and killed in Baghdad in one day then U.S soldiers who get shot,blown up every day .

The U.S soldiers are Demoralize despite winning the war as things are not getting any better or safer in iraq.People are still without hydro in alot of places,sercurity is still sluggish,People are becoming more impatient .Communication is almost non existent in Iraq in alot of areas, The U.S cant get more then 51% tv coverage of iraq to inform them of whats going on.While Iran is already pumping anti american messages daily though the media.

If the U.S found even a small credible trace of evidence to support the 45 mins strike capability they touted before the war it may have proved they were right but now,It seems they didnt have a clue or even cared as the consiquences of going to war were gonna be.Throughout indonesia the invasion of iraq has proved to be a great opprotunity for Al'qeada to take root and spread hatred and actually even now Justifiy its actions to moderate muslimes.

If the U.S was gonna take actions it should have been in Indonesia were the threat was credible and real, As Al'qeada has done attacks there and is active and well supported by fear and hate.

Al'qeada goal is to spread ethnic hatred to Indonesia to cause instabilities enough to motivate a full blown war for the Muslimes to takeover that hole region, Al'qeada goal is to create a massive islamic state in Indonesia which will dedicate itself to destroying the west,Iraq has been the trigger for this.

I come here for about five minutes every other day. If and when I can spare more time for the micronovel back-and-forths that require over an hour to type, we can then parry words.

But since brevity is the word of the day, all I have to say is "So what"? I supported the war irregardless of the WMD. We know he had them, and what scares me is that there is no proof of them at all, not only of their existence (which was confirmed and re-confirmed ad infinitum) but that there is no trace of them whatsoever. If they had been dismantled and destroyed in accordance with UN rule, there would still be traces of the warheads, canisters, what have you. But there is nothing. They weren't destroyed, and because they weren't, the war was justified in that respect. If they had been destroyed, and Saddam had any interest in retaining the power and control he so dearly loved, he would have done his best to supply proof of their destruction.

What worries me now is where they are. Are they hidden? Sold to others? Who knows? But to say they were destroyed, or never existed in the first place, is sheer folly and even now only true fools ever utter such crap.

No, nothing that has happened has made my faith in the justice of this war waver. The resulting chaos only makes me angrier that we didn't finish the job the first time, as this could have all been avoided. Of course, we have liberals to thank for that... and a president who lacked the cajones to stand up to them.

Before the war some members of Iraq's government had said that they blew up some stuff in the desert and lost the paperwork. Now, I believe them...

Oh, and Sadaam had plenty of time to dismantle the whole program. Five years, actually, since the UN left in 1998... several years since he knew he was target #1. That is more than enough time to erase all traces of his WMD programs, as he clearly did both to try to appease us and to make us look real bad if we acted anyway. I put absolutely no credence in the idea that "its there and we haven't found it yet" or "they moved them to Syria/Jordan/Iran/Terrorist Market".


Oh, and when you can, you'll want to reply to my second post too. Its on a completely different, and probably more important, subject...

Without weapons and without traces or credible proof its gonna be hard convincing moderate Iraqis or Arabs that the U.S did it not for personal gain or revenge.

Just today another 2 U.S soldiers got blown up.

Getting rid of Saddam was good but now its time to get rid of Kim pinyong or ridding of the tyrant dictators of africa.
Obviously your had never wanted that burden but since your leader jumped into it the U.S is gonna be critized everytime a dictator is ignored.
While I can agree European leaders are rats ,They totaly ignored Liberia more then the U.S who atleast is giving some asistance.

Evidence or inteligence can never be used for anything ever again to justify a war.No one will believe it unless all the world leaders confirm it.The hole of the U.S has a energy crunch and alot of us wonder if Iraqi oil was the real reason for war as eminant threats or just raw material for WMD havent been found .

One last thing , The U.S needs too punnish Saudi Arabia for once, they kept a brit and a Canadian in Jail for 2 years(both white), The framed him of terrorism to protect there freindly Al'qeada freinds and beat him till he confessed a crime he didnt commit . There was no evidence given at all to say why the saudis had him imprisoned and acussed of terrorism , He was in prisioned for months and went through many forms of torture such as electricution and beatings very much like Saddam men did.
He said in a interview that he gave in as the torture was untoleriable he was willing to say and confess to anything they wanted if they stoped wiping,beating,shocking him with teasers guns.
Saudi Arabia is evil and is just as opressive as Iraq once was and many ways worse except the U.S supports and protects it. Their Involment in 9/11 is seriously questioned and most americans believe they had a bigger role in it then their saying.

Going back to the Canadian who was on death row for a crime he was framed and never commited , the brittish Jumped in as they reason for this was because it was a brittish deplomat who was the target of the attack by islamic terrorist no doubt.The Brits force them to let the canadian go or if he was executed that england and canada would cut all trade and ties with Saudi Arabia and knowing that if that Happen the U.S would be pressured to do so, they let the canadian go on a Pardon but never apologized or cleared him of the charges so the real terrorist go away free.

Given that we didn't HAVE any reasons other than personal gain and revenge, yes, it will be hard to convince them that there was another reason we went in...

Oh, and Bush's conduct in Liberia is disgusting. Here a nation is BEGGING for our help, and DESPERATELY needs it... so what do we do? Nothing. Nothing, and let them kill eachother for weeks and weeks. Great job there in helping secure a vital part of restoring West African peace... it is truly dispicable that Bush hates peacekeeping so much that he refuses it where we need to use it most.

A very similar situation exists in Afghanistan. We DESPERATELY need to send in a full peacekeeping force to secure the whole nation and not just the capitol... but this idiot and his anti-peacekeeping (except in Iraq where he had to be quite literally forced into it once his idiotic delusions of cheering crowds hit the rocks of reality) foreign policy, mixed with his total disdain and clear hatred for the rest of the world's opinions, has done nearly irreparable damage to our world standing, the chances of anyone cooperating with us, and any chance for true peace in Afghanistan. I just hope Liberia turns out better... but I won't hold out much hope. Not with this guy in charge.

Oh, and yes, we should look much deeper into Saudi involvement. The fact we buy a lot of oil from them, of course, will make that never happen... but it REALLY should.

There are protestors in Iraq waving signs saying Bush: "I am with stupid".


Liberia is thankfully improving since the African Help arrived, Taylor Resigned and the rebels are negotiating and even allowed foriegn aid to come into port.

But what is stupid is that Bush said he would send troops if Taylor resigned and indeed he has not, yet a U.S peace keeping force is no were to be seen.The embassader in Liberia has done a fine job negotiating with the rebels, but what liberia wants is a U.S force coming in and saying to the people the U.S cares.

Right now Bush treats liberia like a afterthought, As it has no Oil,no value , other then its history.

if it was saudi Arabia he would send the hole smoking guns.

The relationship between liberia and the U.S which existed for over a century has been damaged for quite a while as Bush failed to send troops when they were needed.Bush doesnt care of the little people but those he can profit off.

The U.S didnt need to secure the hole country but just secure the capital so foreign aid could have come in faster and be already ready for when the african peace force arrives. Instead he did nothing but procrastinate and still is procrastinating.Right now a Humanitarian desaster is likely near and its only good fortune Liberia had such compassionate neighbors.6000 Liberians are dead and hundreds didnt have to be that way.

Al Gore hates Bush now with serious distaste, He said " lets fire him and get a new one".

Why doesn't the U.N. send peacekeeping troops to Liberia? Isn't that their job? I think "6-8 months" was what they said about that.

Bush couldn't care less about a silly thing like history.

And yes, Liberia is unimportant, small, oil-free, and black African. Not a good formula for outside aid, for sure.

Oh, and as for the UN, it sort of IS the UN that finally moved to get the Nigerian peacekeepers to go into Liberia after weeks and weeks of us refusing to act... remember, the UN takes a while to do anything. We could have acted much, much faster, but Bush wouldn't. And hundreds, maybe thousands, of Liberians died as a direct result.

Oh, and yes, Al Gore does hate Bush now. In that speech last week he said something similar to what I did -- Bush is responsible for all the "miscalculations" and "misdirections" and "mistaken opinions" that the administration holds and held, not the advisors. That is clear once you look at all the facts.

Bush finally sent in a thousand troops , Good but slow.

I have heard a reason the U.S avoids african missions is because of somalia were 10 american soldiers were killed and had their bodies draged across the streets.

Liberia isnt as dangerous as the rebels are not anti american.
If the U.S can help get liberia back on its feet then it can also help prevent Terrorist dealings in africa through the diamond trade.
A stabalized Liberia will help all of west africa.

Its because they have no oil and little boost to Bush's ratings... its a definite case of 'it would have been dramatically better if it wasn't so late'...