Quote:Mario Kart is different from Gran Turismo and Cruisin' World.
Mario Golf is different from Tiger Woods '03.
That is the point both OB1 and I are trying to make, but you refuse to believe that MK is a different kind of racer than those games. Why? I have no idea. True, it is a racer, but it has weapons, powerups, fantasy-style course, ect., that make it different from other games in the racing genre. Yes, Wipeout has most of these things too, but can you honestly tell me that Wipeout is the exact same type of racing game that MK is?
When you put it that way, I agree. Mario Kart is to Mario Golf as Gran Turismo is to Links.
What I was really doing in these last few posts was picking on OB1's word choices, not on his opinions... and man, did it annoy him... :)
I SAID that Wipeout is different from Mario Kart! I said that in one of my last few posts! When exactly have I said Mario Kart is the same as Wipeout? I didn't.
Oh, and that may be your point, and I don't disagree much with that... what I am disagreeing with is OB1's other points... which he has mostly rescinded so we don't have much left to argue. :)
Okay... how about we make this clearer.
Quote:The main difference between Gradius and Wing Commander is the perspective, and Mario Kart has many more major differences with other games in its genre.
You've played both those games and can say that with a straight face? Impressive... because it makes no sense.
Wing Commander is a Space Flight Sim. A early, and more arcadey, space flight sim... but a space flight sim.
Now... for the very first Wing Commander I can see some reason why you could say that it takes themes from Gradius. But it changes them so dramatically in the implementation that I see no conclusion to draw other than that its a new genre. Because space flight sims have depth. Complex flight controls. Flight systems. Story depth. Mission variety. AND EVERYTHING ELSE!
Are you honestly saying that TIE Fighter and R-Type are in the same genre? Uhhhh.... *backs away slowly*
Oh, Elite. Of course I've heard of Elite. Haven't played it myself, but heard about it plenty. Privateer was sort of like it, with the open-ended galaxy exploration and trading... Why exactly would you think I haven't heard of Elite? And where do I say that Wing Commander was the first space flight sim?
Yeah, I don't. So why do you say that I did?
Quote:First of all, I never said that Mario Kart isn't a racing game.
Yeah, I know now. But when you look at that comment from my perspective it really looked like you were, because I never thought that you'd consider those games in the same genre when it is so clear that they are not...
Quote:Mario Kart revolutionized the "kart racing genre"??! It was the first game of its kind, you dolt!! Before Mario Kart all you had were straight-forward racing games like Rad Racer and Outrun! The only similarity Mario Kart had with previous racing games is the fact that you raced around a track, and if you think that that's all that makes a racing game then you truley are more ignorant than any one of us ever imagined.
Fine, it created the kart racing genre. Happy now?
As for Contra and Doom... yes, I can see a connection there. It is much clearer, so I admit that that was a bad example.
Quote:Gamespot's Cruis'n scores were way too high, but most sites got it right.
I would probably give them scores in the upper 7's. To me, they deserve that score. I know you disagree, but its just a matter of opinion and isn't something you can empirically claim you are right about for everyone.
Finally.
Quote:Have I mentioned that you're the biggest hypocrite I've ever met in my entire life? Well there it is again just in case you missed it before. You dumb down Gran Turismo and Mario Kart by saying that you "just race around a track", but when you compare Gradius and Wing Commander you say that "well you're in a ship and you shoot stuff but the way you shoot is different". So you race in GT the same way you do in MK???
Try reading what I've written in this thread again, then thinking about it.
Now... that isn't what I meant. Or what I said.
You are taking two completely sepearate arguements I was making and combining them.
Racing games. Racing has some requirements for a game to be a racing game. You need to be going for some kind of finish line somehow, along some sort of track. Obviously. All I was saying there was that those are all racing games, because they all contain the fundamental things that make games racing games, even though in gameplay they are quite different (look back, I said something to that effect).
On the other hand, I do NOT put space flight sims in the same genre as scrolling ship shooters. They are in the same genre as FLIGHT SIMS, not scrolling shooters... sure, Wing Commander was a fairly arcadey space flight sim, but its still a space flight sim and not a scrolling shooter...
Oh, and is this a good time to mention that as with all these games I'm referring to Wing Commander the series in general, not the first game in specific?
So. If you think I'm so stupid, how about giving me your reasoning for your strange decision that space flight sims should be considered to be in the same genre as scrolling shooters. Is Elite in the same genre as Gradius too? I certainly would say NO WAY... same to TIE Fighter, Freespace 2, or any other space flight sim...
I will say one thing. There are some 3d spaceship-based games that ARE offshoots of the scrolling ship shooter. Some examples are Sinistar Unleashed, Bang! Gunship 2000, Star Wars Starfighter, the Star Fox series, and the Rogue Squadron games.
Also, I will admit that Wing Commander is one of the most arcadey of the space flight sim serieses, so you can make a better case for that one than for any of the others I can think of.
However... I, at least, do see enough differences that I would put the Wing Commander series as a space flight sim, child of the flight sim genre, and not a space-based action game, child of the 2d scrolling ship shooters.
I guess it just depends where you draw the line. You clearly draw a a loose line between these genres, and I draw a tighter one.
But I don't see how you can honestly say that Mario Kart is to Gran Turismo as Gradius is to Wing Commander. Because at least to my eyes there are far more differences between Gradius and Wing Commander than there are between the two racing games.
Sure, it is absolutely true that Mario Kart and Gran Turismo are dramatically different ideas of racing games. I've never denied, or even pretended to deny, that fact.
I'm just saying that I see even more dramatic differences between the other two games.