On the subject of MM... WW got me to play some MM. I didn't get anywhere (it took me quite a long time to figure out how to do what I've done before to get to the next part... and only remembered with the help of GameFAQs...), but did clear a Spider House. Other than that all I did was say "I really should do that next step" (which is to go into the music-box house after turning on the river, then getting a mask from the guy in the basement, then finding a fish and 5 magic beans (uh, WHERE DO YOU BUY THOSE THINGS? I have no clue anymore, and don't want to spend two hours wandering around trying to find where you get them... ) to be able to clear that stupid well.
It reminded me how great that game is in some ways.
Graphically... amazing. If I forget nostalgia, I'd say that it probably beats OoT... it doesn't have the size or epic scope of that game, but most of the five areas it has are better than their OoT counterparts in design, 'coolness', style, etc... I'd take the MM town, water area, Goron area, and hills/desert/whatever over their OoT equilivants. OoT only has the advantage with Hyrule Field and the Kokiri area -- I'd admit that the swamp in MM has a LOT more to do in it, but I just didn't like it all that much... and the Kokiri area of OoT is a great part.
I have to say that MM is probably a great candidate for 'best graphics on the n64'.
But why was I annoyed so much that I quit? Its all the things I've mentioned before -- how everything resets when time does. I save the world (or part of it...) but an hour later its all back to the way it was. I open the river in Ikana... and have to do it every time. I find the items I need for the well... but don't get down there in time so I have to reset time and I lose them all, thus making me waste a lot more time getting them AGAIN. I hurry though dungeons with the aid of a walkthrough just so I don't have to start them over from scratch. I always have this time limit hanging over my head, and know that I can't stop to look at the scenery for very long because I'll run out of time on the tasks I'm trying to do and will have to spend another while collecting items again. Its remembering that once again you forgot to deposit money when you had a lot of it and your bank account is thin...
Its all those things and more, and they just add up. It just gets so, so frusterating that the greatness of the game itsself was, for me, almost lost...
I still would like to get this game, but $50 is a lot when there are so many other games out there, and when there are so many I already have that I need to finish.
It'd still cost $50? Couldn't you find a used copy for $30 or so?
Oh, and I guess topics do get more attention on a new thread than they do on page 10 of a thread that is full of a stupid debate... :)
Told ya so.
Why not just get the ROM, Weltall?
I'm shocked. I mean... wasn't everyone following your and Darunia's debate with bated breath?
Oh, and the ROM is a alternative too... it wouldn't be the same, though. I've played some N64 roms and while its tolerable in a pinch its not NOTHING on playing them on a TV.
"your and Darunia's debate"?? You were involved with it just as much as we were, smart ass.
N64 ROMS suck in too many ways for me even to consider it.
ABF: Yeah, the game is $30 used. But then I also need an expansion pack to run it, thus the extra $20.
Wow... you don't have an expansion pack...
And which N64 games do you have?
I have a bunch of N64 ROMs and most of them are excellent.
...back to the topic...
MM was an excellent game, and one of my favorite games of all time. The music was excellent, and the vast world was fun to explore. The time limit was indeed annoying, but not THAT much...I never really had any trouble beating anything on time. The bosses were awesome (Odolwa---best boss ever), and the dungeons were excellent too. In all, it was such a great title; a worthy follow up to OoT, and better than WW. I liked how it was almost cheery, how the town was so vast, and there was so much to do. Not to mention the prominent role it gave us Gorons!
----Barry
Yeah, the masks that transformed you into other creatures were cool too... and the world definitely is awesome.
As for the dungeons though, those dissapointed me. Now, I have just played the first three of them. But based on that... they look cool but are annoying. The time limit STUNK. Dungeons... I need to take them slow. The time limit means "do this as fast as possible or start over". That is a EXTREMELY unpleasant choice... and it made the dungeons barely any fun at all. That's a big part of why I gave up on the game... so frusterating with the time limit, especially in dungeons. Most other tasks (except like the one I've got to do now) aren't too hard to repeat if you don't get them done... but dungeons? Not fun!
Not as fast as possible. I felt I had plenty of time to just explore as well as do what I needed to do, and usually had at least half a day, sometimes a whole day, before I reset (I'd always reset the second I felt I had the item the current quest meant for me to get). I think maybe we look at dungeons differently. I've always felt "rushed" to beat a dungeon quickly rather than hang around since the first game. I think it stems from my fear of BURNING DEATH that the underworld has to offer. Feeling safer on the overworld, I'm much inclined to go through the dungeons quickly as they just feel so unsafe, so I've always felt rushed. This may be the key perception difference.
I've always thought the dungeons are safer... especially in the 3d games. Not so much in LA, since it has a great save system... but in OoT and MM? Very much so. In dungeons you restart at the dungeon enterance. In the overworld you restart when you die at the zone enterance... not too different -- but when you quit, in the overworld you start at one of a few points. Two in OoT, one in MM, three or four in the 2d LttP... which is bad! As opposed to dungeons where you start in the dungeon enterance. It is very nice. And I've always taken dungeons slowly... they are the best part of Zelda games, really, and I've never tried to hurry though them. Eventually if I'm stuck I'll look up what to do or something but I don't try to take the quickest path to the end.
Unless they're really easy in which case beating them isn't a problem. See: WW.
But for MM, its got dungeons on at least OoT's level, probably harder, with a very tough time limit. Not good. The dungeons in that game were so irritating... I didn't like any of those three much at all.
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Wow... you don't have an expansion pack...
And which N64 games do you have?
Click the link in my sig.
Ah.
Doesn't Conker benefit from a expansion pack?
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Ah.
Doesn't Conker benefit from a expansion pack?
Maybe. Perhaps the expansion pak makes it not suck. Call me crazy, but I didn't find that game fun at all.
Conker is a great platformer. It's like Banjo-Kazooie but without the collecting crap. And potty humor.
What are your top ten favorite 3D platformers, Weltall?
Yeah, Conker is quite good... its a great example of what a platformer can be when you get rid of all the annoying collecting...
Yes indeed. I guess some people just couldn't get past the dick and fart jokes, the crappy camera, and the choppy framerate.
Quote:Originally posted by OB1
Conker is a great platformer. It's like Banjo-Kazooie but without the collecting crap. And potty humor.
What are your top ten favorite 3D platformers, Weltall?
I can say with fair certainty that I don't have ten favorite 3D platformers, as almost every one I've played I haven't liked.
Well that explains a lot.
Yeah... you just dislike the whole genre. That's quite different from disliking specific games... and its too bad. 3D platformers are great!
A_Black_Falcon, do you slow time down before attempting these puzzles (like the underground passage in Ikana canyon)?
Majora's Mask really is a fantastic game. If I wasn't playing through Link to the Past right now, I'd start another game of Majora's Mask.
Your bank account in the game is running low? I never had any problem with that...every time I reset, I'd start by slowing time, then running into the sewers and collecting the 100 rupees behind the bombable wall (bomb mask). Then I'd run across the facades of the buildings in East Clock Town to get the 100 rupees in the chest at the south part of town.
That way, I'd start out with 200 rupees before doing anything else, and it only took a minute.
Just always remember to deposit your rupees on the third day before saving, and getting 5000 rupees saved was simple as can be.
I slow down time at the beginning of the 3-day cycle. Well I have since getting that song...
Oh, I currently have 1000 rupees in the bank... but just the 200 rupee wallet. And it'll take at least 200 to buy everything I need to get through that idiotic well... which is larger than my wallet, convieniently enough.
I need the 500 wallet so the next thing I'm going to do is finish the Seaside Spider House in day one... 200 just isn't enough!
Oh, and I don't know about any 100-rupee locations...
The best part of the game is the awesome overworld. Its really great. The worst part is the dungeons... they look cool but are just so annoying that playing them was far more a chore than fun...
I never really took the challenge as far as restart points, because I try to NEVER die. I'm talking the challenge of getting killed period. Sometimes I get this feeling of panic that makes me want to solve stuff faster. It never ruined the experience of a dungeon for me, but when I've got like half a heart, I know I better get moving so I can at least get some more hearts. The overworld has almost never made me have that kind of rush. I actually enjoy that rush, so don't take it the wrong way. I love a dungeon too, and the time it takes to solve puzzles is good fun, but I don't linger longer than I need because, for obvious reasons, I just FEEL unwelcome there (a testement to good game design right there).
Anyway, the money making method I used, when I wanted money, was to kill that crow that steals your stuff (if you are slow enough to ever actually be hit by it :D) using arrows, arrows being VERY easy to get just by running Epona through a few grass piles.
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Oh, and I don't know about any 100-rupee locations...
(I do all this with the bunny mask on)
Location #1 - Go down into the sewers (pst the little kid you tell the passcode to) and turn left immediately. Swim to the alcove at the end (on the left). Put on the bomb mask and detonate on the back wall. Presto, a chest.
Location #2 - As you come back up out of the sewers, turn immediately to your left and run up the stairs (facing south). The bunny mask will allow you to jump further, so have it on. Running at full speed, jump over the gap with the soldier who guards the exit gate. Jump towards the face of the building on the left, and you'll find that you can walk along the facade of the building. You'll come to a platform that bends to the right with another chest.
Yes, a 500 wallet is essential, you should get that first thing.
Restart and save points is a huge aspect of Zelda game difficulty.
LttP (on SNES) and OoT have very restricted save systems -- just at a few points. MM has the owl save temporary save. Other than that the only save restarts the world and only saves which items you have collected. That's very restrictive... by far the worst in the series. Because no other Zelda game resets your arrows, bombs, bombchus, etc, etc every time you save! That's awful... And you can't even trust saving in dungeons. Well you CAN, but since you still need to beat that stupid thing in three hours it doesn't help at all...
Of course when you die where you start is very similar to OoT.
LA (and OoA/S of course) have the best save system (well maybe LttP-GBA's savestate is best... but other than that), or close to it. I mean... save and it saves at the last door you went through. Simple! And powerful! Why couldn't other games have used that one.. :(
Really? I never really thought of restart and save points as being that big a deal, but then again, I grew up with Zelda 1 and 2, the first one having ONE restart point, the start of the game, and the second one having TWO start points, the start of the game, and blessingly, the last palace should you die there. Having adapted to speeding in about a minute right back to wherever I was wherever I might have died in those games, the restarting points of later games were nothing major. LTTP had PLENTY enough for my tastes, and LA was downright frivilous :D.
In the first game you don't restart in dungeons when you die there? I thought you did that in all the Zelda games... huh. You do in all the ones since Zelda 3 anyway.
And the more freedom the save system the game gives you the better the game is and the less frusterating it gets. All of those are good things.
I was in the car for about 20 hours in since Friday... made me wish I had a recent GB game (since my newest one is two years old...). I coped by reading some books (about 600 pages total at least...) and starting a new game of Final Fantasy Adventure.
Now that game has a great save system! You can save at any time. Two slots. And when you save... it saves what screen you were on! Such a simple thing... letting you save at the screen you are on. Simple... but it makes the game so, so much less frusterating!
Yes, it can get irritating if you die and realize you haven't saved recently because the game never autosaves and when you die you go back to the main menu (and have to load your last savegame) but since you can save on any screen AT THAT SCREEN you have no excuse... :)
Now if only Zelda would do that!
Yes, nice and convenient, but it takes up save space, which is why there's only two slots (then again, Zelda games have just 3).
Besides, when you die, I feel the game should PUNISH the player for dying :D, hence forcing them to work back to where they were.
Its just like any game with a save system when you can save when you want -- how badly you get punished depends on how often you save.
Except this one goes the step further that most games don't do and makes it so the game ONLY saves when you do... in most games with save-anywhere it autosaves or lets you continue from the beginning of the level... but some like this and Eternal Darkness don't do that. I like it that way actually... makes you more aware of when you last saved and how you're doing, knowing that saving is your only safety net...
Of yeah, and I go a bit overboard in FFA and always have like 12 keys, minimum... :)
I like it that way too, mainly because if I feel I didn't do a perfect run the first time through, I don't want to SAVE my imperfections :D.
I just save a lot because I can, pretty much... I don't like to go long without saving...
For example in Eternal Darkness I'd save probably 5 or 6 times per level minimum.
Yeah... but I almost never load them. I just save a lot. I do that in PC games too... by the end of a War3 or SC level I probably have a half dozen saves, since I almost never write over a savegame when I can help it... if I had my way I'd probably have like 100 seperate savegames in Eternal Darkness... :) ... of course once I beat a game I often go and delete most of those savegames, but I save them anyway.
Why knows, maybe having 75 seperate save files for my Planescape: Torment game could be useful someday?
That I do not do. I save a lot, but I almost always keep just ONE save file.
I never have one save file when I can possibly help it. For example in Final Fantasy Adventure I'd save on both slots regularly so I'd have one a bit back of the other... for backup. I only have small numbers of savefiles in PC games, though, when they have autosave. In that case I save over the autosave most of the time and just make a few of my own saves... usually at the start of levels or when I quit the game I'll save in a seperate file.
But in other games I just generate lots and lots of save files. :)