Soooo this quarantine has me staying in and playing a lot of old games. I haven't played this many video games in isolation since I was a teenager, yuk yuk. But one of the titles that somehow fell by the wayside for years was Twilight Princess. I bought it for Wii and began playing it 8 years ago (I still have the timestamp on the game file). I didn't get that far in it, and just lost interest for one reason or another.
Actually, before TP, I went back and revisited Wind Waker. It was kind of hard to get used to the low quality GameCube graphics, on an old CRT, after playing the likes of Outlast and Donkey Kong: Tropical Freeze (thanks, DJ, it was quite good!) in 4k resolution. I tore through WW in just a couple weeks. I was surprised by how addictive it was. It's fun to go sailing the seas, like a pirate, exploring islands and what have you. It was pretty much as easy as I remember it being. Even the final Ganon battle posed no challenge - I beat him handily on the first try, with two bottled fairies to spare.
But anyway, as I was closing in at the end of the game, I thought, why the hell am I replaying this when Twilight Princess never got the attention it deserved? So I plugged it in and started from the beginning.
I don't know what it is, exactly, but something feels a little... off about it. It's not a bad game, it just doesn't exactly feel like Zelda. Almost like it's an X-Box knock-off. Strangely, I didn't get the same feeling with Wind Waker, which might be more of a drastic change to the Zelda formula (in both aesthetic and gameplay mechanics). I just beat Death Mountain and am at Lake Hylia, about to meet the light goddess.
Link, who has been transformed into a noble wolf, must collect the tears wept by spirits to vanquish the darkness that is consuming Hyrule! So dramatic. I don't mind it, though. The wolf parts are novel, but I'll say that I'm glad they're kept to a minimum. I want to play as Link, damn it. Midna is a little irritating, but not nearly as bad as Navi, and not even a TENTH as bad as that insufferable purple angel chucklehead in Skyward Sword. Dear god, I was ready to headbutt the TV every time a lengthy cut-scene ended, the game resumed, and just as I put my thumb on the joystick, she stops me in my tracks to reiterate literally the EXACT SAME INFORMATION SOME OTHER CHARACTER JUST TOLD ME! GO AWAY!
Speaking of Skyward Sword, I've played it in spurts over the years, and I STILL haven't finished it. The last couple times I tried, I just got too bored by the drudgery of tedious tasks, like having to go and collect a bunch of items before the time runs out. There's a bunch of filler that doesn't advance the plot, just "ok Link now do this if you want to progress in the journey, this is important because reasons." I can't believe how long they stretched that game. It's not just me, is it? The game has brilliant swordplay mechanics with the Wiimote+, but god damn is it frustrating to sink that much time into a game, and get teased that every time you think you're at the end, some new artificial challenge opens up.
I think I got the triforce and swordfought that one weird anime-y demon guy who seductively licked his lips at me, challenging both my wrist-flicking skills and heterosexuality. That was a great boss battle, kidding aside. Then I had to go back to the light world and do some other bullshit blah blah I don't remember, should have known it wasn't over when Ganon wasn't the final boss. Was Ganon in that? I don't remember.
Anyway, someone said at one point (might have been here, might have been another video game messageboard) that Twilight Princess for Wii is probably inferior to the GameCube version. The issue is that they designed the game around GameCube's controls, then just kind of stuffed it into a Wii port, but it didn't necessarily translate well. The Wiimote isn't really as responsive as a button-press to slash the sword. It's kind of neat to aim with the Wiimote, but I must be sitting too close to the TV, because my hand (which usually rests on my thigh) is pretty much always out of the scope of the sensor bar. I have to quickly move it up, which makes it a little clunky.
Still, not bad, not bad. I'm enjoying it. Welcoming a greater challenge than Wind Waker. But again, something about it just doesn't feel like Zelda. Anyone else experience this? First time it's happened for a Zelda game for me.
You mention having to get used to Gamecube graphics again. For what it's worth, I think Wind Waker's look is timeless, the sort of old game where they emphasized an art style to the point where it ages very gracefully. I never have to get "used" to it personally, unlike old games that focused on "realism" which all aged like fine bananas. I'm looking at you Perfect Dark, though I wish I wasn't.
I think I know what you mean when it comes to Twilight Princess. I would add that Skyward Sword has a similar issue. When it comes to Zelda, I consider three aspects to be key to a Zelda experience.
The first is that cohesive "this is a massive world to explore" part, much like Metroid. It's not done in stages, it's done as a massive single piece where you explore from one area to the next using items and such in new areas. At the most basic level I think just about everyone understands that, and even Zelda 2 sticks with that idea. This is what necessitates a focus on puzzles I think. To explore means to get stuck and that involves mental as well as physical barriers.
The second I almost never see mentioned is what I call "tangibility". Zelda games are unlike most other adventure/RPGs in that every action is made to "feel" like you're actually doing something. Almost never do you just sit there selecting from a menu, you are an active participant in something that takes a certain level of control to accomplish. Pushing a rock doesn't usually just stop at hitting "A" while looking at a rock. You have to move your character into the rock and direct that motion. Picking up a vase involves walking next to it, hitting A, then walking around with it over your head right down to the reduction in movement and action options that implies. Every single action, every single item, every single STEP is carefully designed and itterated over and over again until it "feels" just right, as Miyamoto interviews have revealed. Zelda, much like Mario is a very tangible game, and Zelda without that hands-on feel is not Zelda.
Thirdly- there's the freedom of exploration. The freedom to go on and do what you want, explore where you will, within the restrictions of your character's abilities. Frankly, older games have more of this than never games right up until Breath of the Wild.
It's that last one I feel like both Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword sacrificed in the name of narrative. They're not the only series that have done that mind you. King's Quest 1 and 2 are both far more "open" games than their sequels. King's Quest 7 is most certainly the most linear, being broken up into literal "chapters". In fact, I'd say that this sacrifice of freedom also hurts that first point. Even though on paper TP and SS aren't level-based games, they end up FEELING like it because there's only one way to tackle the games. There's no freedom to tackle certain areas out of order. The most you're ever allowed is when you decide to handle the side quests. This has also hurt the speed running community, since they sealed up these games so tight that sequence breaking becomes very difficult. What's worse is the artificial nature of what keeps you from exploring. Your companion. It's one thing when the game relies on that tangibility factor to block off entry. If it's a physical barrier, it doesn't seem forced. It's just an actual wall. However, when the only thing keeping you from exploring areas you want to look at is a ghost yelling at you to turn back, it feels frustrating. Also, as the years go on Midna has become more and more annoying. She's honestly just hard to tolerate with that attitude of her's. It was kind of cute the first time around, it made her stand apart from Navi. However, you know who else stood apart from Navi? Tatl. Tatl is a better Midna. Then again, I'd easily take "annoying and ungrateful" to whatever they were trying to do with Fi. Her writing is awful. They thought to give a personality to the Master Sword, then forgot to give that personality a personality. Frankly, I am of the opinion that Fi would have had more personality if she never spoke a word of dialog and had to get across all her thoughts and emotion through her gestures.
The one thing both SS and TP maintain is that tangibility factor. Other than the narrative driven barriers, both games still have a heavy focus on making sure every action "feels" like you're doing it. For me, that's enough to keep it feeling like Zelda enough for me to enjoy those games for what they are. However, it's clear the shift to point by point narrative hurt the two games. Perhaps if they'd taken the time to develop multiple narrative paths to match up with multiple directions the player might choose to take, that could resolve the problem.
I will say that things can swing too far the other way. Link Between Worlds and Breath of the Wild both emphasize freedom to the point that every dungeon is equal in difficulty rather than being a curve. Further, puzzles are very unchallenging. Nintendo seems to have taken the position that players shouldn't get stuck to the extent that over the years they have "dumbed down" the most frustrating dungeons in remakes. Personally I think that hurts the experience, but there are ways to handle that too. Dynamic dungeon difficulty is one of them, but it involves a lot of work. If every dungeon had perhaps 4 layouts, selected based on which order you tackled them in and which items you had already collected, this would provide the best of both worlds. It would also drastically increase the amount of time and effort needed to develop dungeons.
In any case, Zelda is my absolute favorite series so I have a LOT to say about any given game. I'm just glad that Nintendo has never once taken the series for granted and released a cash grab. While I might disagree with this or that aspect of specific games, on the whole I appreciate Nintendo's willingness to reinvent the series every few games right down to the art style.
My Zelda list, if you forget:
1. Ocarina of Time
2. Link's Awakening
3. Twilight Princess
I really love Twilight Princess, it's a truly amazing game with the best art design ever in the Zelda series and some of the best gameplay, too. I will say I've never played the Wii version, but the better GC version is amazing, as is the HD port on the Wii U -definitely get that version, it's great! As with WW HD, the Gamepad inventory is quite handy as well. It's one of Nintendo's all-time great games and I don't really agree with almost any criticism of it other than that the story is somewhat disappointing and it is easier than OoT or most of the classic 2d Zeldas.
Of course, I usually dislike open worlds, randomly generated levels in games, and dynamic difficulty scaling. There are cases where all three of those things might have a place in some games, but for me such cases are rare.
Dark Jaguar Wrote:The first is that cohesive "this is a massive world to explore" part, much like Metroid. It's not done in stages, it's done as a massive single piece where you explore from one area to the next using items and such in new areas. At the most basic level I think just about everyone understands that, and even Zelda 2 sticks with that idea. This is what necessitates a focus on puzzles I think. To explore means to get stuck and that involves mental as well as physical barriers.
Sure you need a world, but it doesn't need to be all open right at the start. LA's staged-reveal world is my favorite in the franchise. Nostalgia is part of that I know, but I quite disagree on this point. Sure, I do think that TP gets better once the full overworld opens up, it's not done quite on LA's level, but the core concept is fine, and I think I more disliked the part of TP before you get to the full open world the first time I played it than when I have gone back more recently.
Also Four Swords Adventures and Triforce Heroes, while not "traditional" Zelda games, are in fact good. Maybe even great.
Sacred Jellybean Wrote:I don't know what it is, exactly, but something feels a little... off about it. It's not a bad game, it just doesn't exactly feel like Zelda. Almost like it's an X-Box knock-off. Strangely, I didn't get the same feeling with Wind Waker, which might be more of a drastic change to the Zelda formula (in both aesthetic and gameplay mechanics). I just beat Death Mountain and am at Lake Hylia, about to meet the light goddess.
TP is Nintendo's only attempt to make a stylistic sequel to Ocarina. It's what fans claimed they wanted -- a "darker", more serious sequel to Ocarina, with more "mature" art styles and the same core gameplay and world design concepts as that game. MM and WW have a lot in common with OoT and TP, but they are much more distinct in gameplay, while TP is built around the OoT framework. And while I like OoT more overall, some of that is just because OoT did it first and was so incredibly amazing at the time of its release; TP really does have a better world, better combat, and more. It's the better sequel to OoT that Wind Waker in part didn't try to be (sailing, the art style, and such) and in part failed to be (the pathetically easy difficulty level, only four dungeons, etc.).
I know, in recent years it's cooler to like WW than TP for whatever reason, but I have, ever since I got to the full open world in TP, preferred the game, and the margin by which I prefer TP over WW has only grown over time.
As for SS, I've said before that I really like its gameplay, but yeah, I never finished it either. I didn't come even remotely close, in fact. It's a game I mean to get back to sometime for sure...
I know I teased about this game being dramatic, but I have to say, the cut scene after meeting Lanayru was pretty cool. I feel like the three spirits are a symbol for god (maybe the holy trinity?), the sacred realm is Eden, and the black magic is the corruption of men. No idea if that's what the authors intended (I know they're Japanese, but I also heard Jesus imagery isn't uncommon in anime), but those are the echoes I get.
It was neat seeing the Fused Shadow pieces as an agency of evil and corruption, and foreshadowing (see what I did there?) of Link becoming corrupted by them. It seems he is unconcerned about this, though it's not like we ever see Link act introspective (let alone even having his own voice to talk to people).
One other thing I noticed about this game is that it hurt my eyes! The draw distance is fine, but far off distances are so pixelated. Just the result of going back to an older TV, I guess. w/r/t Wind Waker, I actually don't mind the cartoony aesthetic. That kind of translation to 3D makes sense, considering LttP was a little on the cartoony side. More like, again, the graphics are low-resolution, so the models are blurry and pixelated, which was jarring at first, but I got used to it.
Remember when we were all super butt-mad (well, most of us) when the trailer for Wind Waker came out, and the Moblins chased Link off a cliff, then hesitated a moment before falling down, like Looney Toons characters? What's this kiddie stuff!!! ABF, you're right, TP is the dark, mature Zelda people were asking for. Though imo, Majora's Mask was more captivating as a dark and depressing story.
I'm in the water temple now, and it feels clunky and awkward to maneuver in the water. Not in a bad way, though. I feel like they better capture the effects (both visual and sound) of being underwater than OoT. I like to scuba dive, and this feels very authentic. Looking forward to where this takes me.
The jousting bouts are pretty fun, btw. I was frustrated and swearing at first, because I couldn't figure out exactly what to do. I like the innovation, though. However, fighting on Epona can be frustrating. I played the mission where you had to protect Ilia and Telma (who looks and acts like she works at a brothel, what's going on in her bar??). It was very clunky, trying to switch weapons on Epona, who isn't easy to control. The Wiimote felt unresponsive, as did switching items.
The item selection is just weird, too. I'm so used to just assigning an item to a button and pressing the same button to use it. Swapping out the weapons for B just feels clunky. I don't remember it being this bad in Skyward Sword. Kind of wish I was playing this for GameCube, or that I could plug in a GC controler to play.
Oh well. I know I focus a lot on the negative. I will say that I think the storyline and cut scenes are neat. The facial expressions are more advanced and pronounced than in previous Zelda games. Overall, I'm enjoying the experience, and glad I'm finally forcing myself to play. I don't think it will become my favorite Zelda game, but still a solid installment in the franchise.
God DAMN that Water Temple was long. I made the mistake of trying to get all the treasure chests. I got paranoid because, after I got stuck on part of it, I cheated and checked a strategy guide. And apparently I'm a full 2 hearts down from where I should be. >_< The guide said I should have gotten a couple treasure chests with some Hylian letter stampers? Do those do anything interesting, or is it just some collection filler that I can skip? I wonder if those were hidden by the compass, because I definitely hit everything on the map.
My wallet capacity is ridiculously low! I'm getting annoyed of running into treasure chests but unable to get the rupees. I'm going to start looking around for side-quests and what have you, because I feel like my resources are limited. Come to think of it, I haven't seen any fairy fountains, and those are cornerstones of Zelda games. No magic meter (yet?), either. Interesting. If there is one, no one spoil it for me!
Got the Master Sword, can now change into a wolf at will. That's pretty neat. I almost missed one of the howling stones. This game is growing on my more as time goes on.
Finished this up a couple days back. I'm surprised that I put a whole 60 hours into the thing. It seemed to fly by. That's a lot of gaming for 3 weeks. I was as addicted to this game as I was Wind Waker. As I kept playing, and as I amassed more items, it felt more like a proper Zelda game. I definitely got the feels seeing Ilia get her memory back.
The final Ganondorf battle was challenging and satisfying. Pretty neat to get some horse-riding in, and what Ganon battle wouldn't be complete without a badass sword fight at the end? I was definitely struggling towards the end there, having used both my potions. Another 6 or so hearts and I would have been toast. It felt like I hit him a good couple dozen times before I finally felled him. Granted, it would have ended sooner if I saw him fall to one knee and get in the final death blow, but the first two times it happened, he was off-camera, and I couldn't z-target hime.
I'll say that the game was a bit too easy, but that seems par for the course for Zelda games these days. They don't seem to get really challenging until close to the end, though that won't stop me from bitching up a storm at the slightest frustration or inconvenience. I've gotten bitchy in my old age. ;( Thankfully, the difficulty level was nothing like Wind Waker, which was (ahem) a breeze.
Great game, glad I finally played through it. If I had the choice to do it again, I would have played the GameCube version, because I don't think using the wiimote did the game any favors. I definitely had to time my sword strikes differently, because I knew they would be slow to respond. This was especially pronounced when Ganon and I were striking a ball of energy back-and-forth, waiting for the other's reaction time to fail. But overall, great experience. There's a reason I was so damned addicted to it.