Considering this is a cost saving measure, it's not like people are going to have much of a choice soon enough, unless this is only for Europe. Thing is, there's a new E-1000 model of PSP that removes wi-fi. Odd choice...
What gets me isn't removing the ports. That I understand in terms of the eternal "trimming" that every single console ever has had in their remodels (the NES remodel stripped off the A/V for example, also the lockout chip :D). What gets me is that those ports aren't where the backwards compatibility lurks. It's not like this is the PS3, where the entire architecture is changed so backwards compatibility had to be done by adding in the old PS2 chips. In the Wii, it's basically an enhanced Gamecube. There's no reason it can't play Gamecube games anyway. Just set the system up to treat a Wii classic controller as a Gamecube controller and allow the creation of "virtual" internal memory Gamecube memory cards which are passed through to the Gamecube portion as though they are the real thing. That would only add the cost of software development, not any additional components, and it would cover it aside from add on peripherals. Heck that could be, and should be, added to the original Wii models anyway.
They've released some pictures of the system. It looks pretty much like a slightly redesigned Wii from the front, very similar size to the front at least. Maybe it's not quite as deep though? We don't know yet.
But yeah, really, nobody who knows better should even consider getting this thing. The GC game support is great to have and GC controllers are supported by a bunch of Wii games... sure, not nearly as many as support the CC, but still, a good number support them, and there are a few that support the GC controller but not the CC, if you want a non-Wiimote option. Not having GC controller support for those games is a big problem!
As for why, of course you're right that there's no sane reason for it function-wise, given that the system is an upgraded Gamecube, but getting rid of those ports (controller and memory card) saves them a little bit in build costs, I'm sure. I imagine that that's got to be the reason why.
As for a software solution, they should have done that years ago of course, but Nintendo is nothing if not incredibly lazy, so I'm sure we'll never see such a thing come from them. :(
I know that Nintendo has a long history of removing features from later revisions of systems, but that doesn't make it any nicer to see this time than it has been any of the others. And at least some of the times you got some good features too, as well as the removed ones (NES 2 vertical cart port, for instance)... nothing like that here.
Oh, Sony announced a new PSP model in Europe too. It has a UMD drive, but no wi-fi. Yeah.
Yeah I said that above :D.
Anyway, a software solution would be a good idea. The thing is, there's missed revenue here, the good kind, the kind that benefits your customers. Both the Wii and (by extension) the Wii U should have all the hardware they need to play Gamecube games, if only they put in a software solution for dealing with peripherals. Sane people assume Nintendo will actually have decent storage space on the Wii U (sane people make some rather crazy assumptions sometimes). The virtual console, a vast collection of old games provided via emulation, makes crazy money. Nintendo would do well to sell old Gamecube and even Wii games on it. They wouldn't need to program an emulator, and the "art" for the menu is already built into those games. It's some of the easiest money they could make, sans network costs, which really is only the infrastructure they should be investing in anyway. Operating costs are pretty cheap these days. I really don't see why Nintendo isn't doing this.
A Black Falcon Wrote:Oh, Sony announced a new PSP model in Europe too. It has a UMD drive, but no wi-fi. Yeah.
No WiFi? What? How the hell are you supposed to play online? Does it have 3G, if that's the case then that would be pretty cool.. But if it indeed has no internet access at all then I predict people will be lining up... Just to return it.. Because that piece of crap would totally blow.. Furthermore that raises issues with Sony? I mean how the hell would you get the latest OS update? Think of games like call of duty... It wouldn't even work on that machine..
What a absolutely retarded idea! All I can say is they better sweeten this honey pot, because before I would even consider buying one, they would have to lower the price to about $30.. And through in about 900 games, and even still it would be a shitty deal.
No, if they're removing wi-fi they certainly aren't adding the much more expensive 3G instead... no, the new PSP-E1000 will only be able to access the PSN Shop if you connect it to a PC via a USB cable and do it that way.
And yes, that means that it has no multiplayer support either. But it's only 100 euros, so worth it!
Dark Jaguar Wrote:Yeah I said that above :D.
Oh yeah you did, I missed it.
Quote:Anyway, a software solution would be a good idea. The thing is, there's missed revenue here, the good kind, the kind that benefits your customers. Both the Wii and (by extension) the Wii U should have all the hardware they need to play Gamecube games, if only they put in a software solution for dealing with peripherals. Sane people assume Nintendo will actually have decent storage space on the Wii U (sane people make some rather crazy assumptions sometimes). The virtual console, a vast collection of old games provided via emulation, makes crazy money. Nintendo would do well to sell old Gamecube and even Wii games on it. They wouldn't need to program an emulator, and the "art" for the menu is already built into those games. It's some of the easiest money they could make, sans network costs, which really is only the infrastructure they should be investing in anyway. Operating costs are pretty cheap these days. I really don't see why Nintendo isn't doing this.
I agree on all points, it's pretty stupid how far Nintendo is letting itself fall back in online support.
I mean, I like physical media a lot, but it'd make so much sense to have much better online support... I'd think it'd make them more money, for one thing, and you can't let your opponents always be five steps ahead of you can you?
I kind of understand it -- digital download stuff is MUCH less popular in Japan than it is in the West, and Nintendo is focused on Japan, as always -- but that doesn't mean it makes any more sense, they are supposedly a global company after all.
Loading from flash would also pretty much destroy all load times.
To that end, I think both Sony and Nintendo should support the "install" feature the 360 has had for a while now. The 360 allows you to simply copy an entire disk to the hard drive, or even external memory like a large flash drive now (though oddly they cap the max size of those external drives...). As copy protection, it does require the disk to be in the drive. Yeah, annoying but understandable.
The Wii doesn't have enough space to do this, so I can understand why they aren't doing this. Sony however doesn't have that excuse. They spend so much time fighting hackers they haven't stopped to think that maybe if they just add in that feature themselves, they could do better by everyone. Ideally, I could copy a disk and it would be "signed" so the file could only be played on that particular PS3/PSP. Yeah yeah, what if someone hacks it? Well, they're already doing that, so you're no worse off than before in that situation. With that "signing", I wouldn't even need the disk. That's a slight convenience on the PS3 (where all your games are going to be a short walk away at all times anyway), but on a handheld, it's getting to the point where it's a must, especially when they should be competing with mobile devices.
One other thing that's been mentioned is that in addition to the ports, dropping GC compatibility also lets them use a cheaper disc drive as they don't need that complex one that can read large or small discs anymore.
As for installs, don't many PS3 games have installs?
Sort of... It's left up to the developer to include it, and they are all over the board in how it gets implemented when they deem to do so. Of those that install data, very often it's a limited amount.
Actually PSP games are the same way. In that case I can say that it's not nearly as quick loading as a complete disk copy, as Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep can attest to. The load times in that game are simply aweful with no install. With it they are bearable, but after a full copy they're practically gone.
Hmm, the disk drive thing... That might amount to something, maybe. I was under the impression that Gamecube disks are simply smaller DVDs in what they use, so I don't think an extra laser is needed. There's no trick to reading the smaller disks, just maybe in getting them into place after they are inserted. Depending on the mechanism, that MIGHT mean extra hardware, or it might just mean implementing firmware to detect the small disk and move the positioning arm accordingly.
I remember Nintendo saying that there'd never been a multi-size slot load drive before they made one for the Wii, or at least that they had to make a new one, so a slot-load drive that could load different disc sizes actually was a more complex idea... and it's got to be harder to build too, it's got to be able to accept the smaller discs from various parts of the drive and then angle them into the middle before pulling it in, after all. So it is more complex in terms of loading mechanisms. I'm sure you're right about the laser, but that's not what's more complex.
I mean, look at how when you put a GC disc in it doesn't just pull it in, it moves it into position first...
Quote:Sort of... It's left up to the developer to include it, and they are all over the board in how it gets implemented when they deem to do so. Of those that install data, very often it's a limited amount.
Oh right, installs are more size-limited on PS3 or something? What was it, a 5GB limit for mandatory installs? But optional installs can be full-disc, yes?
Quote:Actually PSP games are the same way. In that case I can say that it's not nearly as quick loading as a complete disk copy, as Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep can attest to. The load times in that game are simply aweful with no install. With it they are bearable, but after a full copy they're practically gone.
Of course with the PSP a big issue is that said installs must be to a Memory Stick Pro Duo, not exactly the most common or cheap kind of memory card...
In just about every store there's Memory Sticks right by the SD cards, and they are a lot cheaper these days than when the PSP first came out. Just get the Panasonic brand instead of Sony's. They're licensed and high quality stuff. As for storage space, an 8 GB card can store around 7 games, depending on the size of the game. The max size of a UMD is 1.6 GB after all, and that seems to be the cap for online only PSP games as well.
I have yet to see a single PS3 game install the entire disk to the drive. Mind you, one would need a really large drive for games like MGS4 that take up a whole blu ray disk. However, most games just take up around a DVD or 2 worth of that space, so most of the time the standard hard disk would be enough. I don't know if there's an internal policy for what Sony allows developers to do, but I do know that even if they are allowed to make their "optional" install copy the whole disk, in practice no developer has done that.
That's why it's best not to leave it up to the developer to code it in themselves and simply make full disk installs a feature of the system's OS instead, like Microsoft did. MS learned the hard way that often such features need to be designed themselves if they are going to become ubiquitous with the original XBox. If you remember, that system advertised "custom soundtracks", but it was left up to the developer to code it in themselves. Microsoft did two things with the 360. They set up multiple sound channels right in the OS so the OS would handle doing things to the different channels instead of the game, and they also set up a developer requirement to put the music track on one specific channel and anything else on the other channels. The first one alone means that channel can always be replaced with custom music, but the second one is required simply so certain lazy or "clever" developers don't decide to just load all the sound into the same channel (depending on the channel, meaning either the custom music plays along with all in game music, or replaces both sound effects and music together), or just get the channels reversed (so it replaces voices or sound effects instead of music).
In the case of a full disk copy, the only requirement that needs to be made to developers is that they make sure all disk content can be used without the need of whatever in-game disk install options they provide. By that, I'm referring to the latest Metal Gear game for the PSP, Peace Walker. That game has built-in data install to speed up load times. The problem is, the game streams a lot of data, so when it's all loaded straight from the UMD, that bottleneck means that voice data over the codec (played in real time in this game) can't be streamed fast enough. Their solution was to dummy that voice playback out unless at least the smallest level of data install was installed to the card (that smallest one basically just being all the codec conversations). This works, but if you happen to have hacked firmware, it means that even if you copy it to the card, it can't detect that that's where it's being played from and still dummies out the voice data unless you install the voice data to the card (again). Now, this is partially a result of the hacked firmware being unofficial. However, it would be an issue that would need to be addressed if Sony ever decided to put in a full disk copy OS option on the system (unlikely now that they're focused on the Vita, which uses cartridges just to annoy OB1, making this a moot point). Honestly I'm not sure how the PS Store version of the game handles things. Those games, by all accounts, are all just rips of the UMDs, so unless it's a rare specially altered version, then it may be they actually had to package the voice data "install" along with the UMD image for that version, making that download actually larger than the max size of a UMD game.