Tendo City

Or, why do we call it Democracy? It isn't... its a Republic...

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Or, why do we call it Democracy? It isn't... its a Republic...

It's not truly a republic either. It kinda mixes the two together.

Why democracy? Leftwing conspiracy.

Yeah, but its more republic than democracy -- we have representatives who we elect who vote for us... that's republic. Yet we refer to ourselves usually as a democracy... which is the lesser part of our political system...

Technically, it's a democratic republic. Why can't the parties get along like our government system's designation does?

A true democracy is like Athens, and we all know how well THAT ended up (everyone got to vote on everything, leaders were for telling what to do).

A true republic is like, hmm, actually I never actually decided to go and learn what countries have true republics. Anyway, they happen to have a pretty big limit on what people can vote on. Stuff like laws there are never ever presented to the people, though they do vote for leaders it's out of a specific pool decided on by the government. Here in the US, it's out of a specific pool decided on by people OUTSIDE the government (specifically, two huge clubs who can't actually control anything and have nothing in the constitution saying they have to exist, so they get someone voted into a place of power so they CAN have some control).

Republican democracy just doesn't roll off the tongue, and republic sounds a little too controlled. Democracy sits well with the people. It's all marketting.

Also keep in mind that in ancient Republics, like Rome for example, the people did not elect their Senate, it was very aristocratic. Since we elect our Senate, that's what makes it democratic. We operate as a republic, but we elect our republic in a democratic fashion.

The Senate in Rome was elected... but it was rigged so that it wasn't a real election where everyone's vote counted equally. Yes, we are a Democratic Republic... and I would agree it is mostly marketing...

And it is true that there is a bit of direct democracy... in some states, anyway. I don't know how many states have it, but in some states (including Maine) if a bill gets signed by enough of the citizens of the it gones onto the next election ballot as a thing everyone votes on... and if it passes its automatically state law...

But there's nothing in the national government like that.

Isn't it a representative democracy when you elect people to represent you in the government therefore it is a democracy.

A representative system is also the basis of a Republic... a TRUE Democracy is, as we said, where everyone votes on everything. Like Athens, or town meetings.

but in athens, only the rich men got to vote...

not a true democracy at all.

Quote:Originally posted by big guy
but in athens, only the rich men got to vote...

not a true democracy at all.

Actually later on the middle class got more power when the upper class realized the Athenians army had mostly Hoplit middle class warriors, The middle class staged a revolt and later won the right to vote and have a say in the government.
The Athenians were the very first to have a equal democracy for both upper and middle class citizens.

That true democracy was lost when Rome annexed the entire Greek penesula. but infact it became the base foundation for the U.S democracy later in the future.

I suppose there's never been a true democracy, just as there's never been a true communism. The USSR, Cuba and China are socialist...perhaps true democracy is as unrealistic as communism is.

I guess true communism would be a communist government that has succeeded in communism's goals. And we all know how (un)successful communism was...

Yeah, true communism would have meant success for communism's stated goal of the falling away of the state... obviously it never got anywhere near it and was just a dictatorship with a new name.

As for true democracy, I guess I'll say if for the third time. Town meetings -- closest thing to true democracy I can think of.

The true forms of either democracy or communism is unrealistic...a community without government where we all live equally is unrealistic because there'll always be assholes who'll fuck it up. A true democracy is more down to earth, but hasn't been completely effectively executed yet.

A true democracy is something that is also unrealistic because then who will be the ones to tally the votes? Oh, vote on them eh? Great plan, who tallies THOSE votes in the mean time? Not to mention that once that's done, regardless of what side wins, the loosers may call farce upon whoever took the votes, and then a recount. Eventually, a large group gets sick of this, and boom, war and anarchy. A goverment is needed to control voting.

True communism, as Darunia said, will always fail. One notes how currently true communism doesn't exist. However, when a few of them started, they DID have true communism. However, a few people decided to get into control "to make sure everyone is still equal". It couldn't really be stopped. They took more than they needed, claiming they did need it. That's the problem. No one will EVER be perfectly honest like communism requires. Some jerks will ALWAYS come along to take advantage of it. Communism IS a perfect form of government. However, it's not meant for imperfect humans. Humans will always screw up communism. The best form of government for humans it seems is one where our petty greedy grasping ambitions are kept in check by OTHER people's petty greedy grasping ambitions. Make two opposing wills cancel each other out.

Quote: A true democracy is something that is also unrealistic because then who will be the ones to tally the votes? Oh, vote on them eh? Great plan, who tallies THOSE votes in the mean time? Not to mention that once that's done, regardless of what side wins, the loosers may call farce upon whoever took the votes, and then a recount. Eventually, a large group gets sick of this, and boom, war and anarchy. A goverment is needed to control voting.

Uh, no. The system works GREAT for groups of maybe 10,000 and less. In fact for a political unit that size or smaller I'd say its definitely the best form of government there is. As evidenced by how lots of towns have been operating on a government form that uses that idea as the base of its system for hundreds of years now... and Athens lasted on even purer form of it for a long time...

You don't vote every day. You vote when there is a issue that needs a vote... for smaller groups its not like this is every day or anything... you have occasional votes (with a bunch of votes at once I'd assume) and then some people count it. Just like any system. Then its law... just like how those citizen initives that get on the state ballot (with enough signatures) become state law if a majority of the people vote for it... well in this state anyway...

I wasn't aware there were towns that still had town hall meetings. I saw it on the Simpsons sure, but I thought it was a joke. Of course where I live the population is a bit too large for such a thing to be possible, so that might explain why it just doesn't happen here. Still, there is a lot of voting on issues anyway, just without the town hall meetings.

Town meetings? They are a very old New England tradition and lots of towns all over New England have them. None of the larger ones (the town I'm from was 20,000 so it was too big for town meetings and has a elected town council), but lots of smaller towns... several towns around ours have town meetings. And many others all over the region.

My town is about 22,000, and we hold town meetings, but they're a joke...no one ever goes to them.

I said they exist, not that lots of people attend... :)

about the whole greece thing....

having the middle class being able to vote still didn't allow the lower class to vote...and there was a lower class. plus, women had no say whatsoever in any issue, much less politics. it was a democracy for the elite.

and communism is such a ridiculous idea. having everyone have the same stuff simply isn't right. doctors need to go through much more training and spend more of their life becomin good doctors than a garbage man has to spend on his job, and as such the doctor should be paid more. you put more in, you get more out.

Quote:Originally posted by big guy
doctors need to go through much more training and spend more of their life becomin good doctors than a garbage man has to spend on his job, and as such the doctor should be paid more. you put more in, you get more out.

Then why were Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers and other people who spent years studying to become what they became the ones who led most of the communist movements

Capitalism doesn't work with "you put more in, you get more out", it works along the principle of supply and demand. You get more if your skills (or whatever you provide) are more in demand. If more people want garbagemen than they do doctors, and there are less garbagemen than doctors, then garbagemen will make more money than doctors.

It certainly isn't as fair as "whosoever works harder makes more cash", but nobody said it had to be. Capitalism is about being clever. Teh smartyman makes teh moneyz.

edit: and communism is armed robbery, pure and simple. I don't particularly enjoy hearing people saying "well, it was a good idea" or "in an ideal world it would work" because well, no. I don't find dudes in overalls stealing my money and giving it to random people a "good idea", and I wouldn't want to take any money stolen in such a way either.

"stealing" your money? Going to "random people"? Huh? That makes no sense... true communism, in the ideal world with perfect humans, is pretty close to the perfect form of government... no inequality, no unfairness, no problems with poverty, hunger, unemp[oyment, war, etc... everyone is equal. Everyone gets paid equal money. And everyone does equal work. And the government fades away because people have no private property, posessions, salary issues, or anything else... so the government isn't needed. Sounds like just about the perfect society... of course it requires those non-flawed humans.

Hence the spectatuclar failure when applied to the human race.

So a perfect human has no ambition? Sorry, I don't buy that. Communism means the drive to be better ends, progress stops, humanity stagnates and humanity dies, just like any stagnating society.

I find striving to rise above others an inherent part of human freedom. If you say "well, that's because you're not perfect", fine, make my day. Under those conditions, I don't want to be perfect.

Good point. I believe one of humanity's greatest gifts is the desire to always improve themselves, never stopping, always going to the next horizon. Yes it can also be a curse, as all gifts can be twisted to evil. However, the fact that something has the potential to harm does NOT mean it should be banished.

Huh? That doesn't exactly make sense... who said technology stagnates? People would still work on research and development of new ideas...

The whole point of why it DOESN'T work is that people will not work just as hard for no more reward than someone who does less than them. If people were perfect, people would work hard with no expectation of increased payment for it... they'd do it just to be better people...

Alright, well I suppose it's a divergence of opinions... to be frank, your perfect humans sound like robots to me. The concept of advancing for the sake of advancing is pretty alien to the human mind as far as I've observed, and I think the question you may want to ask yourself is whether your imagined race of perfect men would even be human at all anymore. Things like ambition that generally have negative connotations are in fact what have allowed the human race to survive and advance up to this day, and when you take them and replace them by a whole other set of values, it's debateable whether we're still talking about the same bunch of super-simians here.

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Huh? That doesn't exactly make sense... who said technology stagnates? People would still work on research and development of new ideas...

The whole point of why it DOESN'T work is that people will not work just as hard for no more reward than someone who does less than them. If people were perfect, people would work hard with no expectation of increased payment for it... they'd do it just to be better people...

Communism does not work, not just because communist regimes are almost always repressive and genocidal, but because the very idea of communism is antithetical to progress. If the world were one giant communist utopia, technology would certainly stagnate, because what would be the incentive to find new technology? One could not earn riches or glory in a communist system, theoretically.

People are not equal. Some people are inherently superior to others in some fashion. That's what makes our society function, almost everyone has a specialty. It's also the basic nature of competition that exists in not only human nature, but nature as a whole, that makes a system like Capitalism the best way to go.

Not to mention, even if communism worked, the very idea is repulsive to me. I don't want everyone equal. What would be the point of living if you had to live with the certainty that nothing will ever change in your lifetime? You just live, work, and die, with no pleasure.

Like N-Man said, that sounds like anything but perfect to me. Perfect to me is having enough money that I can enjoy the finer things in life. And since I don't plan to achieve that without a lot of hard work, I would not feel the slightest bit sorry for anyone who didn't achieve that.

Thank you two for proving my point for me.

You just don't seem to understand the concept at all... I'd say more but its late and I'm tired. :)