Tendo City

Guild Wars also has some minigames only available for a limited time during the various festivals, such as the Dragon Festival (Chinese New Year I think?), the year-end festival (New Years'), etc. During these periods some special minigames are available, not playable at other times. Most of them are new variants on the usual "click the eight buttons on the bottom while running around and targeting enemies" stuff, but there are a couple of more unique ones, such as a kart racing style beetle racers game in the year end festival. You do use skills, but you're also racing down a hill. It's a pretty fun one. In the dragon festival, my favorite minigame was the battle one. It's sort of like a normal battle, except everyone has the same, special skillset, and you use preset weapons too. It's sort of like a dodgeball arena combat thing, sort of, kind of cool and an interesting change from the normal game -- the skills you have in that mode are quite different.

There are some others too, such as some single-player ones, like one where you have to fight snowmen or something like that... :)

I wish that these modes were available more often though, or that they had more stuff like that in the main games, because you can only play them during the festival events, and it's nice to have the variety. The only minigame I can think of in the main game is the "Guild Wars meets card battle RPGs (or Pokemon) even more so than usual" game in Eye of the North. You start with a few default monsters, and then can get more by fighting certain NPC people who play the game. Not sure if there's a PVP mode with it, never looked... it's decent though, you have the various monsters, but can only take three to a battle. In battle you use skills like normal, but you can't fight yourself, only the monsters, and they mostly fight via skills. I haven't played it in a while so I don't remember the details, but it was alright. But still, even there, even though the gameplay was somewhat different, you still were clicking the skill buttons as your main gameplay. And while I haven't played a huge number of them, I've played enough other MMOs to know that that's how that whole genre works, and GW probably has more variety than most, which says something I think about how lacking in variety the genre is...

Quote:My problem with Guild Wars is that the explorable areas are absolutely massive and rarely have anything in them other than monsters. They feel massive and empty, and lack the sorts of things that I liked about exploring in most RPGs [NPCs to talk to, quests to find, dungeons to fight through, and good loot to pick up]. Guild Wars just doesn't have that.

Dungeons - EotN has them. Quite a few, and they're hard.
Loot - below.
Quests - Get in towns, sort of like PSO. There are lots.

Obviously exploration doesn't interest you in games, though. Too bad, it is one of the best things about the game. (Did doing things like finding discoveries in Skies of Arcadia interest you, if you ever played that game? Skies is my favorite JRPG ever, of course, and the exploration element is a definite part of why.)

Quote: and minimal experience.

Um, what? How much DID you play GW, anyway? It can't have been much, if you even missed GW's levelling system. Guild Wars has a level 20 cap. Once you reach 20, experience is only useful for getting skill points, which you use to buy skills with. It took a while to reach level 20 in Prophecies, you won't hit 20 until you're probably 2/3rds or more of the way through the campaign, but in Factions and Nightfall you are levelled to 20 pretty quickly, and EotN, as an expansion pack, is level 20 only.

That is, experience is less important in GW than in any other MMO. There are no issues (in multiplayer) about levels or anything like that, because everyone is the same level. It's one reason why GW has the best competitive multiplayer of any MMO ever, pretty much, with tournaments, random arenas, guild battles, and more. It's a huge part of the game. You can even create PvP-only characters, which can't do the single player part, but start from level 20 and can use any skills unlocked on your account (that is any that any of your regular characters have gotten).

There is no MMO with as little grinding as Guild Wars has, with as low a level cap, or with as even a playing field between players. Armor works the same -- better armors have penalties as well as bonuses, so while there are better and worse armors, any max-level armor is going to be usable. You can't get something with some amazing, perfect bonus, it'll have some weakness too. The same goes for the runes, etc. that you can put on armor pieces.

Quote: simple loot

Basic loot items are simple, sure, either money or various kinds of horns, skins, etc, but weapons drop too (from enemies which carry them), and of course there is elite skill capturing -- in order to get elite skills you have to defeat a boss enemy that has that skill and then use a capture signet to capture the skill. You can only have one elite skill in your skillset at any time, so you've got to choose carefully -- but using the wiki and stuff to find where to look for elites you want is a good idea, otherwise it can be frustrating. Still, I definitely like the system.

As for other "loot", the main thing of course would be the various armor sets, which you have to create from crafters. Each class has a lot of different armor sets available, so there are many options to choose from. As with everything about the game it is balanced for fairness, so while you can spend huge amounts of time and money on a 15k set (the really expensive, late-game special armor sets you can find in each campaign, it costs 15,000 gold per piece), it won't give you any kind of additional bonus, it just looks cooler. I guess some people dislike that, because they want loot that makes them better than others and stuff, but GW isn't about that, and I like that about it. The game is incredibly well balanced. I'm not sure what your position is on this, it might be interesting to hear (about GW or anything else, just about this general issue). Thanks to the armor sets, Guild Wars has plenty of cool "loot" to aspire towards getting. Oh, there are also special, rare weapons to find from enemy drops from certain bosses and such, or from quests, so there is that too. Most of my characters use some kind of rarer weapon, they are better than the normal stuff.


I mean, I can see how someone could dislike these systems. Sure. They're very abnormal for an online RPG, certainly, particularly in leveling. I, however, loved the design, and have never for a moment wished for any levels beyond 20. You hit 20 during your first campaign, and then the rest of your time playing is all spent at that level. Works great, I love it. But sure, I can see how people who like levelling would hate that.

GW2 seems to be completely ditching GW's levelling system in favor of something quite different, and that's one of the many design decisions about the game I'm really not liking what I've heard about them.

Quote:Obviously exploration doesn't interest you in games, though.

Quote:I, however, loved the design, and have never for a moment wished for any levels beyond 20.

Well I do. Hitting the level cap and then sitting there forever is annoying to me, I don't like. I want to keep pulling in more and more experience and gaining higher and higher levels.

Quote:The game is incredibly well balanced.

I don't care about balance one bit. I want to build up my character into an uber-minch and then tear through the country side wrecking monsters left and right with awesome weapons.

This is probably as good a time as any to say that I don't really care about PvP either. PvE parties is fine though, wrecking monsters with other people isn't that bad [it's great fun in Vindictus, after all], but I'm not going to get into fighting tournaments or guild battles.

Quote:How much DID you play GW, anyway?

Five or six hours, I guess. I'm at level 7. That was enough though.

Quote:That was the part that I most agreed with you about. I had nothing to add or argue with.

Well then say something, how am I supposed to know what you think if you don't respond?

Great Rumbler Wrote:

... First you complain that GW has too much exploration, and then you laugh at me saying that? You make no sense...

(Try more than a one smilie answer this time!)

Quote:Well I do. Hitting the level cap and then sitting there forever is annoying to me, I don't like. I want to keep pulling in more and more experience and gaining higher and higher levels.

What's the point, though? I don't get that at all. Just playing a game for more levels, or more Stones of Jordan (Diablo II MP), or what have you... what's the point? Just playing a game to get more levels or loot doesn't interest me one bit. I want something more interesting than that, and that's exactly what Guild Wars does. It always makes you think, always is throwing new challenges at you that you will have to think about and strategize how to solve, forcing you to try redoing your skill set to figure out this boss or whatever... the game often challenges. And the exploration is amazing of course, I don't think there's ever been a game I have liked just wandering around in as much as Guild Wars. There are so many things to see, missions to play, areas to explore... that interests me much more than any pile of loot.

I would agree that the limited levelling of GW does make it feel a bit less RPG-like, and more ... um, I'm not sure what, it's own thing I guess, but as I said I love that about the game. The balanced, consistent challenge is fantastic. Really, level 20 is just the beginning, after that is when a lot of the game opens up... it's just not a game about levelling or stat-building, sorry. :)

Quote:I don't care about balance one bit. I want to build up my character into an uber-minch and then tear through the country side wrecking monsters left and right with awesome weapons.

Balance is good in games. Consistent rule sets are good in games, where a game has a set set of rules and everything follows it. GW does this, monsters use skills just like players do for example. There's none of the stupid "the players and enemies play by completely different rules" that is so normal in JRPGs. The multiplayer, as a result, is some of the best in the genre, but the single player benefits too.

I mean sure, I like getting better stuff for my characters too, but as I said it's not like GW doesn't have some of that, it does, just in its own way, and without the "ultimate power" part -- which I would say is good, because it forces you to use strategy more often. I would get bored fast if I could just crush everything, the game is much better as it is, with many fights that force you to think or, if you're playing with other people, work together. Sure though, there's a place for both kinds of games. But even in Guild Wars, where getting new armor sets is something I've done (some of them do look pretty cool), I've only actually done one 15k armor... they take a long time to get, lots of money and resources. It was worth it, though, I think.


I've been playing GW for a long time though, when I try to think of a MMO without balance like you describe, it just doesn't make sense... I'm like 'but that's not right, you do that in action games and stuff, not online RPGs...' :)

I know that's not really true, but comparing the amount of time I've played GW versus MMOs, it'd be a ridiculously huge disparity.

Of course though, also, when you're talking about getting really strong in MMOs, you're talking about grind, and I HATE grind. As I've said before, the idea of going into the same area over and over and killing the same monsters over and over again and again, just to level up, is something I can't stand. That is of course one of my biggest complaints about many JRPGs. Guild Wars isn't like that, grind (for the materials for the really expensive armor sets, for ranked multiplayer, special materials, whatever) is optional. It's not perfect -- as it is all fighting, which does get repetitive after a while no matter how good it is, as I said I do get bored with it sometimes, stop playing for months before I come back, etc -- but it doesn't have grind in the sense of the term.

Most MMOs, of course, use grind as the primary mechanism they have to keep you coming back and paying them your monthly fee, or buying stuff in their shop, or what have you... so to get back to my point, sure, maybe it'd be fun for a while to play some MMO with a really powerful character, slaughtering everything. But the gigantic, dozens-or-hundreds-of-hours-of-grind mountain needed to get to that point isn't just daunting, it's "I will not do that" material.

Quote:This is probably as good a time as any to say that I don't really care about PvP either. PvE parties is fine though, wrecking monsters with other people isn't that bad [it's great fun in Vindictus, after all], but I'm not going to get into fighting tournaments or guild battles.

Did you try GW Random Arenas at all?

I mean, I mostly don't play GW PVP either (no guild, etc.), but I do play random arenas every once in a while, and the bonus games during festivals sometimes, because they're fun, easy to play (just goi there and hit play, no waiting for a group) and playing against other people is pretty interesting. It's a very different challenge from PvE, and GW's PvP structure is simple and well designed.

I do agree that PvE is more fun, though. That gets the vast majority of my time. But Random Arenas are a great amusement. I don't think most MMOs have anything very comparable, really, but do you know of any?

Quote:Five or six hours, I guess. I'm at level 7. That was enough though.

... Which campaign, though? Prophecies? You at least got out of presearing, yes? I'm asking because as I said, Prophecies is the longest and slowest-paced campaign. It's my favorite one for sure, but it is the longest and slowest paced, and you level up to 20 much much much slower in that one than Factions or Nightfall. I like Prophecies' slower pace of levelling better, but I understand why Factions and Nightfall couldn't do that because anyone coming in from the first game is going to be at level 20, so they needed the main game to start at level 20... so each campaign has a starter island area where you zip up to level 20, then a main continent of 100% level 20 content.


So yeah, overall we just obviously have polar opposite interests in this genre.

Oh yeah, and as for Vindictus, haven't played it. Maybe I will once it goes into open beta or something, I don't know if I'd like it or not, but sure I'll give it a try.


I really want to know how exactly the GW2 levels system is going to work, I know it's definitely not a low cap, but I"m really wondering how they're going to balance everything... hopefully there will be something like a Hard Mode, so you can go back to the earlier parts of the game and still be challenged. In GW only the pre-level-20 areas are easy to blast through, everything else can be a challenge because it's all for level 20 players. But anyway, yeah, it will definitely be different, I'm just not sure exactly how.

Quote:... First you complain that GW has too much exploration, and then you laugh at me saying that? You make no sense...

I already explained it once:

Quote:My problem with Guild Wars is that the explorable areas are absolutely massive and rarely have anything in them other than monsters. They feel massive and empty, and lack the sorts of things that I liked about exploring in most RPGs [NPCs to talk to, quests to find, dungeons to fight through, and good loot to pick up]. Guild Wars just doesn't have that.

And before you comment, I absolutely LOVE exploring in RPGs. I've spent hours and hours exploring in Oblivion, Morrowind, Fallout 3 and others. I just don't happen to like exploring in Guild Wars that much.

Quote:Just playing a game to get more levels or loot doesn't interest me one bit.

And there lies the difference between you loving Guild Wars and me being interested but cool to it. I like getting levels and loot.

Quote:... Which campaign, though?

Whatever the first one is.

Bah, you post too fast, I just finished editing my last post... I changed a bunch of stuff.