Tendo City

awwwwwwe Thunderfoot , How great is your ego grown now that you have angered the land of pure (Pakistan).

I have always pictured Mohamed as Queen Elizabeth II with a big beard and a turban.

Someone ought to edit the Quran to include a bit about how the opinions of others shouldn't mean anything to you.

Because that's seriously half the problem with Islam these days.

"Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

"Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.

LO ! O ye believers of Allah , The opinions of unbelievers shouldn't mean anything to you, Do not take to the sword in anger against those who ridicule you and denigrate your God and his messengers.

O Ye who believe , Vengeance is too God and him alone.


(Jesus christ! Its pretty easy to make up a authentic looking quranic Verse)

Did anyone save the pic of Gene Simmons Muhammad??? or the giant cow squirting milk on the jews and it says "MOOhammad"??? I cant find them anywhere!

asm, your first post is a confusing mish mash of word salad.

So... I have heard some people saying this is "rude". Well, so's being axe'd up in your own home. That sets me off my waffles for the day I'll tell you what. If you are keeping your religion to yourself, this isn't really aimed at you. Feel free to ignore it. It's not like we're walking directly into a mosque and painting these pictures on their walls. Sometimes, manners are a worthless distraction and there are more important things.

Dark Jaguar Wrote:asm, your first post is a confusing mish mash of word salad.

DJ If my poor grammar and syntax annoys you so much, Why don't you help me out rather then whine moan and bitch?

Feel free to post everything I wrote only with your "corrections of it" In colored writing.

It's not an issue of grammer, I don't even know what you were trying to say. Seriously, I'm weirded out.

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Huh??? :FuckYou: Mo ...HAM ed! HUH??? :FuckYou:

C'MON

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/05...index.html

Now they've blocked Youtube too, because they decided there was too much "sacrilegious content" on it.

I wonder if the Islamic world will ever agree that the concept of freedom of speech even exists... :(

This particular case seems more about directly insulting Islam and being as vulgar and disrespectful as possible than upholding any ideal of freedom of speech, which here has only been used as an excuse to justify Islamophobia. People loooove to conflate their ass-backwards idea of "freedom of speech" with hatemongering as evidenced by any racist claiming the First Ammendment when they start talking about sand niggers and the like. The "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day" Facebook page no longer exists, by the way, and for good reason. You should have seen the horrible, hateful, ignorant things that people were posting on it. Why on Earth would somebody want to participate in such an event for any reason aside from deliberately antagonizing a large group of people who will, no doubt, be offended by it? Are you really that spot-on in your worldview? Do you really care about protecting your right to freedom of speech that much, or are you just looking for another way to denigrate Muslims? The Western approach to censorship and freedom of speech is by no means the standard that the rest of the world should follow. It is not appropiate to all peoples of all cultures, and represents only a relatively small proportion of how the world goes about its business in this regard anyways.

A Black Falcon Wrote:I wonder if the Islamic world will ever agree that the concept of freedom of speech even exists...

Ya know, Pakistan isn't representative of all of Islam. Actually, the totalitarian measures taken by its government may not even be representative of its people. It's a big country, sure, but there's plenty more of the Islamic world, spread out across virutally every single country in the entire world, from Indonesia to Morocco to the mosque on 71st street in my city. There's a billion Muslims out there, and they don't all share the same experiences and opinions.

No offense, Fitts, but screw all of that. Christians are totally acceptable targets to western culture, and people poke all kinds of fun at it all the time. Is it Christophobia, or hatemongering?

Maybe sometimes it is, but who cares? Nobody speaks up for 'em and nobody cries out against the 'hatred' and demands that we 'respect' them. Why?

Mostly, because we can post pictures of Buddy Christ without any legitimate risk of being targeted by terrorists. Nobody is afraid of Christians.

I say, Islam's ludicrous fairy tales are no more worthy of respect than any other, and that religion, in general, needs to get over itself. Islam has far too much Westboro Baptist going on, and what happened in Pakistan represents too much of Islam for anybody's own good.

Fittisize Wrote:This particular case seems more about directly insulting Islam and being as vulgar and disrespectful as possible than upholding any ideal of freedom of speech, which here has only been used as an excuse to justify Islamophobia. People loooove to conflate their ass-backwards idea of "freedom of speech" with hatemongering as evidenced by any racist claiming the First Ammendment when they start talking about sand niggers and the like. The "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day" Facebook page no longer exists, by the way, and for good reason. You should have seen the horrible, hateful, ignorant things that people were posting on it. Why on Earth would somebody want to participate in such an event for any reason aside from deliberately antagonizing a large group of people who will, no doubt, be offended by it? Are you really that spot-on in your worldview? Do you really care about protecting your right to freedom of speech that much, or are you just looking for another way to denigrate Muslims? The Western approach to censorship and freedom of speech is by no means the standard that the rest of the world should follow. It is not appropiate to all peoples of all cultures, and represents only a relatively small proportion of how the world goes about its business in this regard anyways.



Ya know, Pakistan isn't representative of all of Islam. Actually, the totalitarian measures taken by its government may not even be representative of its people. It's a big country, sure, but there's plenty more of the Islamic world, spread out across virutally every single country in the entire world, from Indonesia to Morocco to the mosque on 71st street in my city. There's a billion Muslims out there, and they don't all share the same experiences and opinions.

The reason they did this, Has nothing to do with hate-mongering, Was Trey and Matt out to hate monger and vilify with their 200th episode?!! which was horribly censored by the network after it caved in too threats by muslim bloggers from new-york, In the same episode you had Jesus Christ looking at porn and Buddha snorting cocaine, neither Buddhists or Christians have gone batshit crazy over it and may I add that no Politically correct (hypocrite) has voiced complaint over that either. Had Comedy central not caved in to threats, The hole thing you see today on the internet would not be happening.

Fitisize, I suspect you would not be posting that crap had the Muslims treated this the same way "every other religion" has, Which is to shrug it off and ignore it.

People were quick to chastise Charlie Chaplin and several other filmmakers in the 30's for satirizing Hitler and the third Reich, People called them "warmongers".

The cartoons back in 2005 didn't represent all Danes, 100 people were murdered buildings were destroyed and vandalized,The country was hit with trade embargoes, hacked and vandalized online.

To this day Muslims including "white American converts" continue to be arrested for plotting to murder the cartoonist behind it.


There was plan that was foiled just now by the CIA and FBI, Al'qeada planned to bomb the world cup games in south Africa in the hopes of killing Scandinavian teams along with their fans in "revenge" for badly drawn caricatures of Mohamed made in 2005.

Fuck Pakistan, Land of Pure as it known in Urdu

The country exist solely because of religious intolerance it was the only criteria and reason for Pakistans creation, They've made all the religious minorities unwelcome and forced to pack up and move to India.

Its a safe bet the majority of pakistanis not only support the ban on facebook and youtube, They would also support "violent retribution" over it.









Fitisize, Why is this not considered hate-mongering bigotry against Christians that can only be answered with censorship and time in jail if not a full public execution for the cartoonist?





Is this image anti Semitic?



L Ron Hubbard the revered prophet of $cientology, Fitisize would you support violent retribution with body thetan powers against potty mouth suppressive persons?

Fittisize Wrote:The Western approach to censorship and freedom of speech is by no means the standard that the rest of the world should follow.

What about the cultures that move here? Should we forsake our culture and our values because someone might be "offended"?

They can do what they want in their countries, Its because they keep using "threats of violence" to silence expression and criticism over here in our countries that people are pissed off.

Salman Rushdie still lives in fear for his life over "writing a book" about the lost "satanic verses" that supposedly were removed from the quran in the 7th and 8th century.

American Free speech should be the standard for the rest of the world, You cannot have a free society were free inquiry and debate is possible without freedom of speech.

There was a time when a episode of star-trek was taken off the air in some southern states by network affiliates out of a fear of reprisal over the episode featuring the first interracial kiss between a white man and a black women on American television.

Another display of network cowardice

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Would the catholic church have ever gotten to the point of beginning to reforming itself at present with the global pedophile scandal, If all criticism and dissent against church policy and sacred dogma was suppressed like it was in the past?

In Poland "criticizing and satirizing the Pope" is a crime.

I commented with happy faces to an islamic obituary page.

I cant wait for the nukes to drop, it's going to be hilarious. Even Japan will agree.

Fitts, I kinda responded to your post before you made it.

If you're living peacefully and not attacking people, this isn't about you. Go on about your day and get over yourself if you don't like people making fun of what you believe. People make fun of other's political beliefs, their sports teams, and all sorts of silly things like scientology and such all the time. What's the difference here? Either everything should be open to ridicule, or nothing is.

This was started because people THREATENED TO MURDER OTHERS OVER A DRAWING! Never forget that. That's way more important than being "rude". It TRUMPS it. It WINS. At that point, you have an obligation to be rude.

Fittisize Wrote:This particular case seems more about directly insulting Islam and being as vulgar and disrespectful as possible than upholding any ideal of freedom of speech, which here has only been used as an excuse to justify Islamophobia. People loooove to conflate their ass-backwards idea of "freedom of speech" with hatemongering as evidenced by any racist claiming the First Ammendment when they start talking about sand niggers and the like. The "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day" Facebook page no longer exists, by the way, and for good reason. You should have seen the horrible, hateful, ignorant things that people were posting on it. Why on Earth would somebody want to participate in such an event for any reason aside from deliberately antagonizing a large group of people who will, no doubt, be offended by it? Are you really that spot-on in your worldview? Do you really care about protecting your right to freedom of speech that much, or are you just looking for another way to denigrate Muslims? The Western approach to censorship and freedom of speech is by no means the standard that the rest of the world should follow. It is not appropiate to all peoples of all cultures, and represents only a relatively small proportion of how the world goes about its business in this regard anyways.

Ya know, Pakistan isn't representative of all of Islam. Actually, the totalitarian measures taken by its government may not even be representative of its people. It's a big country, sure, but there's plenty more of the Islamic world, spread out across virutally every single country in the entire world, from Indonesia to Morocco to the mosque on 71st street in my city. There's a billion Muslims out there, and they don't all share the same experiences and opinions.

I cannot possibly disagree more with most of what you say. First, one thing I definitely do agree with -- racist and hate-filled statements are wrong, troubling, and usually unhelpful (even if there is a good point behind it, as here there is, the racism just makes things worse and reflects badly on the people making the statements...). People saying that they hate all Muslims and such are wrong. Even in this thread and others here some of the images and such have bothered me.

But, freedom of speech means exactly that. America was founded with an extremely broad concept of freedom of speech, where words are not considered to be actions and only actions, or words directly causing actions ("shouting fire in a crowded theater"), are banned. Many other Western countries do not go as far as the US, often do not protect hate groups and such as long as they don't act violently, but on the matter I think that the US is in the right. Thoughts are not actions. People have the right to say what they think. It doesn't make them right or wrong, but they have the right to say it. This is a vitally important principle which is incredibly important, and if we give up on that we are surrendering one of our core values to forces of hatred, fear, and backwardsness.

Let me repeat that -- yes, the First Amendment DOES protect the speech of hate groups, including neo-Nazis. As long as they keep their actions to just words, the government cannot do anything about them, and must defend their right to hold public rallies, etc. This is absolutely right. Of course, it is also the right of people who oppose them to hold counter-rallies, which they often do, drawing far, far more people than the small groups hate group meetings do. Freedom of speech for all.

But if we give up on that, allow people who don't like what we say to have control over our speech, we give up not just on a key part of the Constitution, but on a central element of the Enlightenment that it came from. Because, if you look at Islam today, it has many similarities to Medieval Christianity. It goes even farther than the Medieval Christians did on many issues, to be sure, but it is far more like that than the Western world today. But, the West changed. The Reformation changed the world forever, and led over time to the Enlightenment. The old concept that thoughts and actions are the same (yes, there is a line of that thought in Catholic and some Protestant thought) was opposed by Enlightenment thinkers. Why should we allow people who in important ways oppose the philosophical bases of the modern Western world to dictate how we should act? That leads us down a very, very dangerous path, towards greater and greater conciliation towards things diametrically opposed to what we believe and what is right, that we should never do. It's perfectly okay to make pieces of art that insult Christianity, and it is done regularly. Christian leaders protest, but usually in ways that accept to some degree the freedom of speech rights of the person who made the artwork or what have you.

Because I'm sorry, but I am never going to support restricting women's rights for some, or revoking the First Amendment and banning all negative depictions of religious symbols for certain religions, or what have you, simply because some group of people disagrees with it. I do not entirely agree with Samuel Huntington's "clash of civilizations" theory which says that the world civilizations can never agree or work together, as you definitely appear to be saying here. THey are different, and in some ways never get along, but that doesn't mean that they should stay hermetically sealed from eachother or something, and it doesn't mean that we should accept things like Iran hanging teenagers or the abysmal treatment of women in the Middle East. I know that that's their culture, but that doesn't mean that we should just ignore it and allow a horrible situation to continue unabated... because as you say, the Islamic world is huge and broad, and it is not uniform. Some parts are much better than others on many subjects. Pakistan itself is a very interesting study of contrasts, with both more Westernized elements and very traditional ones coexisting in the country. Remember that a woman, Beanzir Bhutto, did get elected President there (after her husband, who had been President, was assassinated). I'm sure these bans came out of the more conservative elements in the country.

On that note, I'm not saying that Western culture is the best in everything. It's not. Cultures are different, and should be. But working towards things like greater roles for women in society, or freedoms of the press, assembly, speech, religion, etc... those are things I think we can and should work for. (On the freedom of religion note, they don't have that either. Remember that in many Islamic nations, trying to convert a Muslim person to any other religion is a death penalty offense...)

People like Huntington or you would say "Just leave them alone and let them be as they want to"... but when there are so many people being oppressed within their own societies, that's very hard to do. Of course, the good news is that things ARE changing in most of the Islamic world. Traditionalists do not want to admit or support it, but things are changing -- what I am saying is not some pipe dream or thing that requires drastic measures. It's something which I really do believe is slowly happening, in some ways at least. Not in every field of course, but in some, and that is fantastic, when the starting point, in the Arab world in specific, really was so medieval...


How about I mention one more, final example. Should we simply say, "Iran, go ahead and keep executing gay teenagers simply because they are gay. It's your culture, that's fine with us, cultures are different." Or should we protest when they do such things, saying how wrong their actions are. Or should we protest, saying how horrible their actions are and how they will need to change if they ever want to join the modern world. I know which of those options I prefer.