Looks awesomer than ever before! To think that Miyamoto was originally just going to release an "enhanced" version of Super Mario Galaxy. This is MUCH better! Play as Luigi from the start! Yoshis everywhere! Rainbow Mario invincible mode, Rock Mario, CLOUD MARIO! It'sa awesomea!
:mario: :mario: :mario:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/reviews/20...friday.ars
It's saying something when a reviewer thinks the game is so good it's like an insult to other platform makers. I think ALL games should be designed to insult other developers. Us gamers would benefit like a bandit.
The thing all the reviews have in common is noting how the game is constantly tossing you new gameplay mechanics to master. Well, I do love that, but let's not forget that this USED to be much more common. Super Mario Bros. 3 did the same thing, what with one second you're bouncing on weird flying red beetles that ONL?Y appear on that stage while it auto scrolls, and in another you're jumping over bricks that sometimes come to life, and woah now you're in a shoe, A SHOE, and you'll be there for THIS LEVEL only! I think that's the sort of thing that defines a "timeless game", one where the game doesn't focus on just one player based gimic, but dozens of level-based gimics constantly tossed at you through the whole game.
... So the "plot" this time is that Peach was kidnapped by Bowser while she was baking a cake? Do I really need to say anything about Nintendo's sexism, or do they make it obvious on their own...
I know that the gameplay certainly sounds amazing, but the wrongness of the "plot" really does deserve to be mentioned. Mario games don't need much plot, certainly, but come on, come up with something slightly better.
Sounds like a standard Mario plot to me.
I know, and that's part of my point.
Sexist? The company which basically invented the badass female video game protagonist?
Oh, right, I forgot. You hate Metroid because you're a communist.
Weltall Wrote:Sexist? The company which basically invented the badass female video game protagonist?
Oh, right, I forgot. You hate Metroid because you're a communist.
I don't hate Metroid. Metroid wasn't originally an EAD series though, which is what I mostly would focus on, the first three Metroid games were from Gunpei Yokoi's R&D1. R&D1 are also the ones who made the only non-dream Mario platformer starring Mario where you don't have to rescue the princess, Mario Land 2... and the Wario Land series, which has no princess-rescuing (the Wario-Syrup relationship is entertaining, but definitely doesn't involve rescuing), and more. The Metroid games obviously do emphasize Samus' attractiveness, with the bikini endings, which I'm sure some people take issue with, but she always is depicted as a quite strong character, certainly.
Intelligent Systems is also a bit better on that stuff, the Fire Emblem games all have plenty of female party members for instance... not many have female main characters, but major ones, yes, and party members, certainly. They also did Panel de Pon, etc. Paper Mario... um, Peach does get kidnapped, unlike Square's Mario RPG, but you do play as her in those little interlude scenes, which was a nice touch (and Bowser too, in The Thousand Year Door... Bowser in SMB World 1-1 was pretty amusing... :)). I didn't mind it in the first Paper Mario because they took a unique tack with it with the interlude scenes and such, but I was hoping that the next one would do something different... but instead, they just had someone else, those X-Naut people, kidnap her instead of Bowser. Great. That was one of the reasons why TTYD disappointed me. I know that both Bowser and Peach are playable in Super Paper Mario though... I know it's considered disappointing, but I will have to play that game eventually anyway... (As for the Mario & Luigi games, I never really played those, so I don't really know.)
HAL, yeah, can't think of much bad to say about them either. Kirby's obviously pretty inoffensive. SSB... um, it did annoy me that SSBB added like nine new male characters and zero female ones (no, I don't count Zero Suit Samus as a new character), but other than that I can't think of anything bad to say.
But Miyamoto's EAD? Most of his games involve rescuing helpless princesses. The Mario games (starting from Donkey Kong) helped define that as one of gaming's most popular plots. I know that he got the idea from movies such as King Kong, but still, the fact remains, he's still using it, much more so than anyone else.
Of course, Miyamoto has said many times that he doesn't think story is that important. Creating a world, yes, but plot, no. So it's not exactly something he cares much about, obviously. But I do think results matter, and, well, almost all Mario platformers involve rescuing princesses... there are a few exceptions, but they are just that. The Zelda series is only different in that the games have more plot and Zelda is more likely to actually do something than Peach, but almost all still involve rescuing princesses.
A Black Falcon Wrote:... So the "plot" this time is that Peach was kidnapped by Bowser while she was baking a cake? Do I really need to say anything about Nintendo's sexism, or do they make it obvious on their own...
I know that the gameplay certainly sounds amazing, but the wrongness of the "plot" really does deserve to be mentioned. Mario games don't need much plot, certainly, but come on, come up with something slightly better.
I get what you're saying, but it's pretty much set in stone at this point. Besides, they've made Peach a lot more active in her rescues lately. The same can be said of Zelda. Heck in the games where Zelda gets captured, it tends to happen pretty late in the story these days, and not before establishing her as a badass in her own right.
If you want something better, play Super Princess Peach. She rescues the brothers.
SSBB... really? The series is about invoking legendary heroes from various Nintendo franchises and beyond. Let's face facts, that means the main characters and a few oddballs. Admittedly it puts into stark relief the presence of far more male leads than female leads, but SSBB didn't really have a lot of options ya know. Who would you suggest? Note: Has to be a MAIN character, the character that DEFINES a franchise. At least Nintendo HAS some female leads. Doesn't help that it's called "Brothers" though...
What's much more notable is the total lack of racial diversity in Nintendo games. Even Disney finally made Frog Prince (which among the obvious, also flat out murdered a comic relief character at the most unexpected moment, yeah that was weird). Square-Enix is a little more noticable here, considering their worlds are supposed to represent entire planets of white people, making the presence of singular black people on a whole world far more weird. Poor Barret... is he representative of a wider part of the gene pool or a genetic anomale in that world?
Anyway, back on point, it's Mario. There's some good attempts at Peach playing different roles, but she is the "go to" for damsel in distress. Sometimes, those exist, and there's nothing wrong with that in a Mario game.
Quote:Admittedly it puts into stark relief the presence of far more male leads than female leads,
Very true, and it is a core part of the problem, but even despite that it doesn't excuse SSBB's lack of any new female characters.
Quote:Who would you suggest? Note: Has to be a MAIN character, the character that DEFINES a franchise. At least Nintendo HAS some female leads. Doesn't help that it's called "Brothers"
Lyn or Micaiah would be the two most obvious ones... Lyn for the character with more overall popularity, and/or Micaiah because she was one of the two main characters (the main character, arguably) of a game that came out just the previous year...
When Lyn was annouced as an assist only I knew it was a bad sign for the game, as she seemed to be the female character with the best chance for getting in. Micaiah didn't make it in at all. Too bad, it'd be cool to see an FE mage in SSB, all three FE characters in the games are sword users. I like the mages best, myself, mages are always among my most-used characters in Fire Emblem game playthroughs. :)
If you want an older character, um, the NES really didn't have many female main characters. From Nintendo itself, other than Metroid, the only ones I can think of are Lala in Lolo 3 (in the first two games you just have to rescue her, but in the third one both characters are playable), or whatever the CluCluLand character's name is... I know that is supposed to be a female ... um, octopus or whatever. Probably too obscure and unpopular though, Kid Icarus at least is still somewhat popular (and probably my favorite new character in the game, but yeah).
Alternately, and I just thought of this, Captain Syrup might be interesting to play as in an SSB game... and I'm sure there are some more.
... Balloon Kid for the GB starred a girl. The original Balloon Fight starred a boy, but in Balloon Kid you're a girl who has to rescue her kidnapped brother. Not a prominent enough character for an SSB game I think, though, but one of the few I can think of.
Also, of course, in every Pokemon game since the third one you can choose your gender, but in SSBB, the Pokemon Trainer is male only. There's another obvious missed option.
Overall, for SSBB, I don't think there's any good defense for what they did. I mean, NINE new characters in the game and ZERO are female? Seriously? I know I said it at the time, but fighting games just don't DO that anymore. I can't think of one fighting game sequel from Capcom, SNK, etc. from the last decade or more which did anything remotely like that.
The arcade version of The King of Fighters XII did only have two female characters, of a cast of 20, but the game has a very small roster for a KOF game, and has zero new characters -- everyone returns from past KOF games. Also, the home version of the game added two new characters, both female, to bring the final ratio to 4 of 22.
Quote:I get what you're saying, but it's pretty much set in stone at this point. Besides, they've made Peach a lot more active in her rescues lately. The same can be said of Zelda. Heck in the games where Zelda gets captured, it tends to happen pretty late in the story these days, and not before establishing her as a badass in her own right.
That was true for Zelda in OoT and WW, but then the Oracles games came between them, returning to the "rescue kidnapped maidens and then Zelda" plot. I didn't mind much there because it was intentionally NES-style simplicity, but I do have to mention it. And then there were the two Four Swords games. You do rescue maidens in crystals in the GC game, because it's a LttP inspired title, but I only played like one level of the GBA one (stupid link cable only requirement!) so I don't know for that one. And I've never played Minish Cap, as you may or probably don't recall for some reason I disliked the graphical style from the first time we saw the game and never picked it up.
Anyway, after that came TP and PH, which almost entirely reversed OoT and WW's trends for Zelda. They return Zelda to her old role of helpless nothing you need to rescue. I was so annoyed by that in TP that it was one of the major reasons why, after getting it right after it came out in 2006, I quit playing the game for nearly two years, only actually playing again and getting past the second dungeon (the Goron mountain fire temple) in late 2008... of course the actual gameplay is brilliant and it's easily one of the best games on the Gamecube (now I would rank it above WW in fact and in my GC top 5, because of how great the gameplay is), but that plot, how stupid ... um, its treatment of Zelda, Ganon, and Link is, really ... yeah, I still have a problem with that. Of course it does have Midna, perhaps the Zelda series' strongest female character ever (though I'm sure that would be an arguable point), which was good. Even she needs to rely on Link to save her though, because he's the destined hero. But that point is to be expected in a game like this, it's how such plots work. Zelda though... Zelda is barely present in the game and does pretty much nothing of use 99% of the time.
And then came PH, which made TP's Zelda look amazingly active and strong with its utterly terrible treatment of the WW Zelda, Tetra. There is no defense for the idiocy of turning her into a stone statue for the entire game when Tetra was, in her first game, the most active Zelda ever. Very sad. (And the game was only above average, too).
ST did do much better, and the semi-playable Zelda in the tower is cool, so at least things haven't kept getting worse... but even just looking at Zelda games from OoT on, I wouldn't say that 'stronger Zelda' is any kind of rule. It happens sometimes and doesn't happen others.
Quote:If you want something better, play Super Princess Peach. She rescues the brothers.
That plot is a good sendoff and reversal of the standard "women are weak and helpless and foolish" plot of the series, but on the other hand the emotion-based powers are SERIOUSLY sexist, and just reversing a lame plot doesn't really make it good, I think. It makes it perhaps a little better, but doesn't entirely solve the problem.
Quote:What's much more notable is the total lack of racial diversity in Nintendo games.
Women have been oppressed by society since the beginning of civilization and beyond, black people (in Western society) only for 500 years... sorry, of course I care about racism as well, but I absolutely do believe that sexism is worse and more pervasive.
That said, you're quite right that Nintendo is even worse on racial diversity than they are on gender. They don't even have that many Asian characters, almost all of their characters are White Caucasian or perhaps humanoid animals (or blob-things like Kirby, etc). Japan has some issues with racial prejustice, just like it does with gender (I've said it many times so I won't really repeat myself, but Japan is much more conservative today about roles for women than the US or Europe are, and it's a major reason why we see things like the lack of good roles for women in Nintendo games, I'm sure).
Um, ABF, they weren't ever going to make brand new characters for Smash Bros. That's the POINT of the game, characters we KNOW. In crossover games, the "new creations" tend to be lame, like that cactus man or Rubyheart in Marvel vs Capcom.
The second character is not a main star, and their point with Fire Emblem was to stick in a character from the most recent one to pal around with Marth, the classic. Fire Emblem 7 was not the most recent one, now was it? There was no sexist goal in place I assure you. Lolo and Lala would have been an interesting choice, perhaps as a "clone" of Popo and Nana, but then again they didn't want too many clones. Let's face it, they really didn't have many options there. You're inventing a reason to be offended where there isn't any. They did the best one could expect, and in the end gameplay had to take priority. If they'd stuck in Lynn as yet another clone of Marth, at the sacrifice of a character that played differently like Solid Snake, that'd be pretty lame, and I think you know that.
When it gets right down to it, you seem to want something amazing from a Mario storyline. Sometimes they do something different, but seriously you're inventing a problem where it doesn't need to exist. Was the original story, heck the story of Donkey Kong while we're at it, sexist? Sure in the sense it's based on cultural stereotypes. However, there's no need to interpret it in that light now. It's over, it's done, and in the end Mario is basically a cartoon. Just have fun with it. A serious Mario game is something we don't need. Not even Super Mario RPG was that, a game where Peach gets kidnapped like 3 times AND is a playable character who saves the world. It's the standard story, a running gag of the series, and saying "we won't do that anymore" would be a real slap in the face to the fans. That said, I had really hoped they could work Peach into NSMB Wii instead of just a lame recolored Toad.
Sometimes it's best to go with the standard storyline. Heck even in Zelda 1, Zelda's still saving the world, even if indirectly. It was her idea to split the triforce into 8 parts and hide them across Hyrule so Ganon didn't get them. The one in Zelda 2 may be asleep the whole game, but it's because she took a stand against an evil prince and refused to tell him where the hidden triforce of courage was.
I'm not arguing that it's not a problem, but you're taking the few good signs and spitting in their face. Heck the best thing about Samus, at least until "Zero Suit Samus" was that not only was she a hero, she wasn't being shown in scantily clothes all the time (except in the endings). Sometimes you just gotta let people enjoy a good classic story about heroes saving people. When it comes to Zelda, the issue isn't one of gender discrimination, it's about the series relying on Link being the main character. He's ALWAYS the main character. They put plenty of strong females in there, but it IS the Legend of ZELDA, so she's got to be in there, and she's always got the secret of ulitimate power that forces Ganon to abduct her for various reasons througout the series (or some other force). Don't look a gift Midna in the mouth here. Don't forget that Zelda isn't screaming for help either, she seems pretty eager to help out and is rather stoic about all these abductions.
In fact, you get so blinded that you see the CD-i games as having "better stories" JUST because of the gender reversal. I'm sorry but I've SEEN those games, I PLAYED a little of those games, and those stories are TERRIBLE. Zelda in those games is FAR more offensive than any Zelda incarnation in the "true" games. You just need to see some of her comments about jewelry or her sarcastic forced relationship conversations with Link to see that. Plus, the stories are just plain bad. The Zelda 1 story may be a cliche, but at least it's not a Saturday Morning Cartoon plotline.
Besides, wouldn't just flipping the roles come across as far too blatant to be effective? It's fine for a Mario game, not so much for a Zelda game.
Baby steps here. First step, make a Zelda game where the main character isn't Link, doesn't look like him, doesn't have his name, even acts different than most Links. Female, male, don't care, but don't make it Zelda because again that's too blatant.
Again, you are focusing all your rage on a pointless target. Your arguments on it being sexist have roots in the original stories, but after that, they fall flat. And, they especially fall flat in a CROSSOVER GAME. If they can't find enough interesting female leads (LEADS, that mage was NOT a lead, though I admit Marth clones are getting old that's more a complaint at the series in general), inventing characters no one has ever heard of JUST to make them female would just be an insult. No one cares about random Xena knockoff number 41, they wanted Megaman in the game.
Quote:(LEADS, that mage was NOT a lead, though I admit Marth clones are getting old that's more a complaint at the series in general),
I'll respond in depth later, I very much disagree with a lot of what you said, but I must correct you on this right now: Micaiah and Ike are, indeed, the two main characters of Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn. She's not a secondary character, she is a main character. The game is an ensemble game really, and you play with a variety of people as the "main character" over the course of the game (in addition to Ike and Micaiah you also play as Elincia, Sanaki, and maybe others as the lead), but the two of them are the primary leads through most of the game (the other parts are smaller pieces). Ike is not the sole lead of the game, she is too. Yes, Ike was better known because he also was the main character of Path of Radiance on the Gamecube while she was a new character, but still, she is a main character, and is the first Fire Emblem main character to be a mage, which was great to see because the fact that FE main characters were always sword wielders (unless you count Hector from FE7 as one, in which case you can add the axe) was getting a bit old... it was great to see them mix things up a bit. And then Ike becomes a playable character in the next SSB game, Lyn from FE7 an assist (again, as I said, yes, from an older FE game, but one of the most popular female FE characters, which is why she's in as an assist at all and why some people thought she might be a playable character), and Micaiah just a sticker. :(
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Holy shit
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*DANCE* it's so happy even death makes you smile!
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A Black Falcon Wrote:I'll respond in depth later, I very much disagree with a lot of what you said, but I must correct you on this right now: Micaiah and Ike are, indeed, the two main characters of Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn. She's not a secondary character, she is a main character. The game is an ensemble game really, and you play with a variety of people as the "main character" over the course of the game (in addition to Ike and Micaiah you also play as Elincia, Sanaki, and maybe others as the lead), but the two of them are the primary leads through most of the game (the other parts are smaller pieces). Ike is not the sole lead of the game, she is too. Yes, Ike was better known because he also was the main character of Path of Radiance on the Gamecube while she was a new character, but still, she is a main character, and is the first Fire Emblem main character to be a mage, which was great to see because the fact that FE main characters were always sword wielders (unless you count Hector from FE7 as one, in which case you can add the axe) was getting a bit old... it was great to see them mix things up a bit. And then Ike becomes a playable character in the next SSB game, Lyn from FE7 an assist (again, as I said, yes, from an older FE game, but one of the most popular female FE characters, which is why she's in as an assist at all and why some people thought she might be a playable character), and Micaiah just a sticker. :(
Yeah that's a legitimate point, in the same way some wondered why Terra got the hero role in Dissidia instead of, say Celes. I haven't beaten the Wii game yet though, so I'm just going from the first few chapters where it seems like Ike's the star again. Yeah I admit I'd rather have a unique character instead of a Marth clone too. It's clear that Lyn IS the main character of her game though, but again I'd say that it's more a case of bad timing. Roy's game had just come out so he got stuck in Melee along with Marth, and Ike's second game came along, so he got the spot here. You could make a good argument for Mec, but there's a part of laziness there. It was easier to make a clone.
As much as I'd like to see more variety with the Mother/Earthbound series, such as Paula, it suffers from the same thing. Lucas was the main character of his own game, so he got priority, and again it was easier to make a clone of Ness. Sadly, if they went with Mother 1/Earthbound Zero, they'd probably stick Ninten in there as yet another Ness clone, only this time (from the art I've seen) I bet you couldn't even tell the difference.
I think when it comes to clones, about the only one I'd care to see is Luigi. He deserves to be in there. Also, I'd love to see Ganondorf as something other than a Falcon clone. Again, stick in that black devil looking guy from F-Zero as the "slow but powerful" Falcon clone if you've gotta have that in there. I know Edenmaster loves that.
Quote:Yeah that's a legitimate point, in the same way some wondered why Terra got the hero role in Dissidia instead of, say Celes. I haven't beaten the Wii game yet though, so I'm just going from the first few chapters where it seems like Ike's the star again. Yeah I admit I'd rather have a unique character instead of a Marth clone too. It's clear that Lyn IS the main character of her game though, but again I'd say that it's more a case of bad timing. Roy's game had just come out so he got stuck in Melee along with Marth, and Ike's second game came along, so he got the spot here. You could make a good argument for Mec, but there's a part of laziness there. It was easier to make a clone.
Actually, Eliwood is the main hero of FE7. Lyn and Hector are the secondary heroes. Lyn wasn't even in FE6, which is set several decades after FE7 (or rather, 7 is a prequel); that game stars Eliwood's son Roy, with Hector's daughter Lilina as the secondary hero. FE6 was the most recent FE game when SSBM came out, so its main hero was put in the game when they decided to put FE characters in SSB. That's why Roy, and always popular original FE1 and 3 hero Marth, were in SSBM. As for Brawl, yeah, "it's much easier to just drop in a clone" is probably one of the major reasons why we got just Ike and Marth... it's definitely disappointing and stupid, though, as I said.
Quote:I haven't beaten the Wii game yet though, so I'm just going from the first few chapters where it seems like Ike's the star again.
... You spend like the first eight or ten chapters of Radiant Dawn with Micaiah and the Dawn Brigade, though, so if you've only played "the first few chapters", you haven't even seen Ike yet (the game goes through sections with each of the four or five groups (though as I said, with more missions for Ike and Micaiah than the others, because they are the two main heroes), before finally merging them all later in the game). Unless you mean Path of Radiance for the Gamecube, where he is indeed the sole hero?
Oddly enough, SSBB uses Ike's level 1 PoR costume, not his upgraded PoR costume/RD costume. I'm not sure why. The upgraded costumes are pretty cool in both PoR and RD... RD even has two upgrade tiers for many characters, instead of just one like PoR. :)
Quote:I think when it comes to clones, about the only one I'd care to see is Luigi. He deserves to be in there. Also, I'd love to see Ganondorf as something other than a Falcon clone. Again, stick in that black devil looking guy from F-Zero as the "slow but powerful" Falcon clone if you've gotta have that in there. I know Edenmaster loves that.
I agree, it'd be fantastic to see a Ganondorf actually based on his own moveset, and not Captain Falcon's... they definitely are somewhat lazy in character design, SSB has as many clones as a Mortal Kombat game... :)
Quote:There was no sexist goal in place I assure you.
... Um, as if the fact that men are usually the heroes isn't one of the fundamental bases of sexism? Of course you can explain it (men hunted and women gathered, etc), but the point is that that structure is unfair. Part of it's because of human nature (the ability of people to get used to and accept unfairness, for instance, or that men are more aggressive and more likely to push for power and prestige -- for instance, in most hunter-gatherer societies the women actually provide more of the total amount of food, but it's just plants and things like that; the men, who provide less, get much more prominence because it's big stuff like large animals.), part of it because of unfair social structures that have developed in societies, some elements perhaps explainable through demography (women used to frequently die in childbirth, so do you then accept the added risk of having some be in greater physical danger?), etc... so yes there are many causes.
I'm not going into depth now, it's really stuff I don't think we fully understand yet, a lot of it, but for this the point is that yes, the fact that the men are the heroes is part of the point. Even if many (though not all) of the causes are old and explainable, that definitely does not make it right!
Quote: Lolo and Lala would have been an interesting choice, perhaps as a "clone" of Popo and Nana, but then again they didn't want too many clones. Let's face it, they really didn't have many options there.
Not as many options as there are for male characters? Of course, but there are SOME options. It's certainly not like there were none. Iif they'd wanted to try, they could have found one, some, or whatever. They didn't, though, which was a lot of my point.
Quote:You're inventing a reason to be offended where there isn't any.
I think there's reason enough to be a little offended.
... You want another example? I mean, besides "Mario stories are always incredibly sexist with essentially no redeeming value on gender issues, ever, except for SMB2"? How about NSMBWii... I know you agreed with me on this at least in your post, but it's important to say any -- Why, instead of having any female playable characters, did they put in TWO IDENTICAL MALE TOADS? Not even a male and a female Toad or something, much less the Princess or anything, but two male ones. Why... :(
Quote:They did the best one could expect, and in the end gameplay had to take priority. If they'd stuck in Lynn as yet another clone of Marth, at the sacrifice of a character that played differently like Solid Snake, that'd be pretty lame, and I think you know that.
Lyn's not identical to Marth/Roy/Ike though, she's a bit more different because she's a Myrmidion-style hero, not a standard Swordfighter. That means flashy speed/dodging based fighting, not swordfighter whacking people.
Quote:When it gets right down to it, you seem to want something amazing from a Mario storyline.
Not really, I just want the sexism to stop. I don't expect amazing things from Mario storylines, plot isn't the point of Mario games.
Quote:Was the original story, heck the story of Donkey Kong while we're at it, sexist?
YES!!!
Quote:It's over, it's done,
... What's over and done? I have no idea what you're referring to here... not Mario games continuing to use sexist storylines, because they do. Not sexism in general, because of course that's still a significant problem. "We shouldn't care because it's harmless" or something? How is continuing to perpetuate negative stereotypes harmless?
I mean, it's not like Peach just gets kidnapped every time. She's also depicted horribly. She seems to rule the kingdom (despite being a princess; yes, this is impossible, but I've complained about THAT little bit of stupid before), but is a worthless ruler who does nothing. She cooks, thanks the great male hero, bakes, sits around looking nice, and, in the one game with her name in the title, uses her extremely stereotyped powers of emotion to win.
... Peach makes Zelda at her worst look like an amazing role model, really.
Quote:They put plenty of strong females in there, but it IS the Legend of ZELDA, so she's got to be in there, and she's always got the secret of ulitimate power that forces Ganon to abduct her for various reasons througout the series (or some other force). Don't look a gift Midna in the mouth here. Don't forget that Zelda isn't screaming for help either, she seems pretty eager to help out and is rather stoic about all these abductions.
I think I've commented at length about all of this stuff before, regarding my issues with TP in particular...
Quote:Baby steps here. First step, make a Zelda game where the main character isn't Link, doesn't look like him, doesn't have his name, even acts different than most Links. Female, male, don't care, but don't make it Zelda because again that's too blatant.
How about either making Zelda playable more (ST was a good start) or letting you choose Link's gender or something? It's not like that would make too much of a difference for the series really.
Damnit we're talking past each other because none of the fire emblem games have numbers in them anyway, it's hard to keep them straight when most of them weren't even released in the US.
The official explanation on the Toad thing is that Miyamoto was having trouble with the idea of having the animators work with Peach's dress, which would have to be animated differently than the otherwise rather "solid and statuey" other characters. Toadette would have been a good choice, except her pigtails would also need their own animation. It's not a very good excuse, it's pretty lazy actually, but there it is.
As for the rest of it, a gender option for "Link" would be interesting I guess. Just remember what we're talking about here. I still think you're making a big deal about nothing. The emotion thingy, I don't think it needs to be a stereotype thing. I mean I thought it was funny. I really had no idea you had some issues with Twilight Princess. No, I'm not interested in hearing it actually.
I would rather this be about Mario Galaxy 2. Mario rescues Peach. There's no reason to pretend to be offended by it, it's a typical cartoon story.
You want something to be offended by? Try NEW stories that continue old stereotypes, or better yet, lazy's new thread about how all woman are she-monsters who just want to break his poor wittle heart. Yeah, he's still making those threads every few weeks, and honestly I'm getting tired of it.
"this video no longer available"
Nintendo got upset apparently.
lazyfatbum Wrote:"this video no longer available"
Nintendo got upset apparently.
Might not have actually been the real person, just somebody making it up to see if it would stay open longer that way. All the songs are still up on Youtube elsewhere though.
Quote:Damnit we're talking past each other because none of the fire emblem games have numbers in them anyway, it's hard to keep them straight when most of them weren't even released in the US.
You're right that none officially have numbers, but they're used anyway to easily tell the games apart. The first six weren't released in the US, but every one since 7 has had a US release...
7 - Fire Emblem (GBA) - main hero Eliwood, secondary heroes Lyn, Hector
8 - Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones (GBA) - main heroes Ephraim and Eirika
9 - Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (GC) - main hero Ike
10 - Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn (Wii) - main heroes Ike, Micaiah
-Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon (DS) - main hero Marth. Remake of the first Fire Emblem game for the Famicom. Disappointing compared to the other four US releases, in my opinion.
The next FE game was just announced. It's another remake for the DS, unfortunately, this time of the second half of Fire Emblem 3 (the first half was a remake of FE1, which they released as a stand alone game for the DS).
Quote:The official explanation on the Toad thing is that Miyamoto was having trouble with the idea of having the animators work with Peach's dress, which would have to be animated differently than the otherwise rather "solid and statuey" other characters. Toadette would have been a good choice, except her pigtails would also need their own animation. It's not a very good excuse, it's pretty lazy actually, but there it is.
I've heard that excuse before, and it's so incredibly stupid that I don't think I even need to say anything further on the subject except use it as additional proof for my point. I mean, THAT is the best excuse you can come up with? Seriously? Unbelievable, simply unbelievable.
Quote:As for the rest of it, a gender option for "Link" would be interesting I guess.
It would be pretty simple to implement, too, and wouldn't really affect the game at all. I mean, they'd have to slightly alter a few cutscenes here and there, but that wouldn't exactly be hard. And as Link is supposed to be a cypher for the player anyway, I can't see any downsides at all.
Quote:Just remember what we're talking about here. I still think you're making a big deal about nothing.
What, do you think that sexism is all over and done with now or something, American society is all equal? I really, really hope you don't, it's very obviously not true... to say nothing of more sexist cultures like Japan's...
Quote:The emotion thingy, I don't think it needs to be a stereotype thing. I mean I thought it was funny.
"Women are overly emotional" is a very old stereotype, almost always used as a negative one. I'm sure you know that. Using that as the basis for your powers in a game starring a female character -- when no game in the series starring a male character had done anything similar -- is very, very blatant sexism.
They had some stupid excuse about "the island amplifying emotions" or something, but some on, there's no excuse for having it at all.
Quote:I really had no idea you had some issues with Twilight Princess. No, I'm not interested in hearing it actually.
... Huh? Weren't you sort of referrring to some of my criticisms in that paragraph?
Regardless, you've just forgotten. Here's a thread where I talked about it, for example:
http://tcforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4314
Quote:I would rather this be about Mario Galaxy 2. Mario rescues Peach. There's no reason to pretend to be offended by it, it's a typical cartoon story.
But the point is that the symbolism behind that story is quite negative.
Of course the game's gameplay sounds amazing, and in games gameplay is far more important than story, but it does matter.
Quote:You want something to be offended by? Try NEW stories that continue old stereotypes, or better yet, lazy's new thread about how all woman are she-monsters who just want to break his poor wittle heart. Yeah, he's still making those threads every few weeks, and honestly I'm getting tired of it.
Agreed mostly on that point... many people get frustrated in general at whatever the group of people they are attracted to is. It's pretty common. Doesn't make their complaints accurate though, of course, certainly, and sometimes, yes, it can be a problem.
So did anyone pick up Mario Galaxy 2? I've been busy with a lot of things this week so I haven't had a chance, but apparently they've got plenty in stock at the local GameStop. Does it live up to the first game?
Now that I own a Wii, I should really buy Mario Galaxy 1. I already got all the stars in it a few years back when my room mate owned it, but it was a fun enough game that I'd enjoy more playthroughs.
I ordered SMG2 from Amazon, but it won't be here until sometime next week at least.
ABF, I certainly don't think it's all over and done with, it's a lot better than the past but there's still work to be done. I just don't think focusing on Mario rescuing Peach is part of the problem. Mario games don't HAVE symbolism. There's no need to apply a post modern interpretation. They needed a reason to get him into space, and Peach being kidnapped does the job. Don't tell me you never want to see that story again, because well, it's going to happen. Also, I just gotta say that it really was a technical issue with that dress thing. Again I'd say they were lazy, but I'd hardly call it a sexism issue. I think it's worth just taking their word for it here. I'm not saying that always having the kidnap victim be female doesn't send a wrong message, but it isn't always, one, and two it's a running joke of the series that Peach gets kidnapped now. It isn't based in sexism!
Now you want something sexist?
<img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_MsZb8mYFoCs/S_6lgWCY9CI/AAAAAAAAJ2A/lKwO0NmZ52g/s800/vintageads1.jpg">
There. Instead of arguing that a cartoon is going on a subtle subliminal angle, try looking at the in-your-face sexist stuff that's still around. Heck, Spike TV saying Star Trek is "For Men" is one example, or those stupid Axe commercials. Nowhere in the Mario games does anyone say anything like "women are so weak" or anything of the sort.
Yunno what's sexist? How rape victims are always female in media.
I don't know that it's sexism as much as it is knowing their audience. The vast majority of gamers are male. Unless it can pull the sexuality angle and only cover the bare minimum 5% of her body with "clothing" as some do, game designers know that most of the people who will be playing the game will be male, so usually the protagonist will be male as well.
I'm not sure if you expect Princess Peach to be welding girders the next time she's kidnapped, and break a few Koopa necks before she's restrained, but I do know that you're reading way, way more into it than is due. As usual :p.
Its all retarded.
Racism:
Americans that are black deal with, at some level, the idea of possible hate towards them randomly, so if I made a video game or film character that's black and constantly worried about racism attacking him I would be applauded when in fact, I created an obvious stereotype and put blacks down as constantly-frightened children who live in fear. If I were black, i'd be pissed. No, blacks get pissed because the Transformers "Talk like street thugs" (that means niggers btw) and rant about how Hollywood cant make a black hero (these people apparently never saw a Will Smith movie). It's retarded, it only applies when it applies and when it applies its for reasons that people make up for themselves.
Sexism: Women are physically weaker, always. Unless they're body builders or whatever but even then, compare a male body builder to a female and guess who's stronger, larger, etc? The best chefs, artists, musicians, painters, directors, writers you name it, are men. This is because men CANNOT GIVE BIRTH and therefore put all their mental strengths towards creativity, even subconsciously. What does this mean? Men will always out-do women - in EVERYTHING and women cannot compete. You can find rare examples here and there but they just dont have the drive. In the olympics the men's run is longer than the woman's, women are brilliant at organizing and managing systems but horrible at critical thinking - that is a scientifically tested conclusion and anyone who's ever been around women would see that. It sounds like I hate women, and I do. But it's still facts.
Our stories, entertainment, etc reflect reality in bite-size chunks. Men always feel like they have to 'get the princess' by winning her over, we all think of our girlfriends as amazing queens that could have us killed at any moment and we want to go kill something big for them and make them cook it because we miss our mommies. And guess what? Black people feel the exact same way. GUESS what stories sell the easiest to everyone around the world? We even instantly take "Peach is making a cake for Mario" and translate it to sex because cake and sex are the same thing.
Sexism. Pah. You wanna see sexism? Women get paid more in pornos than men do.
Agreed, and Weltall?
You're not helping, or entirely accurate.
Yes there are some cases of gender bias that work against men too. That's not disputed. What is disputed is that that somehow makes you on an equal footing with the far more egregious issues of bias women have had to and still are dealing with.
I'm guessing, by your response, that you don't fully understand the point I was trying to make.
A Black Falcon Wrote:... So the "plot" this time is that Peach was kidnapped by Bowser while she was baking a cake? Do I really need to say anything about Nintendo's sexism, or do they make it obvious on their own...
Would it be "sexists" if Mario was kidnapped by a cougar while he was plumbing the drain ?
*Damn somebody mail that idea to Miyamoto*
I'd be more pissed off that they keep reusing the same recycled plot over and over again.
Why can't they make a game were you play the Kupa Trupahs! Or have Mario team up with Bowers miffed ex-wife?
Still don't get why no one is talking about this game.
Did you all start some secret thread where you wouldn't have to worry about Falcon's feminist bitching? For what's it's worth, Falcon, I agree with you and would have preferred a different storyline, I just think you should pick your battles more wisely. :)
I picked it up today on a whim and played it a bit. It reminded me of the sweet Mario Galaxy goodness I played with my roommates back in 2007. It felt a little depressing to be playing it alone. The gameplay is fulfilling, though I didn't put in more than an hour.
I have to say, I was skeptical about how they'd handle Yoshi. I didn't care much for him in Super Mario Sunshine, so I was hoping they'd keep him to a minimum in this game (though that's probably an unrealistic expectation, they're probably using him as a selling point).
On the other hand, gameplay with him has been fun so far. It's good to see the tactic of grabbing onto a point and swinging, the kind of thing we've seen in things like Rocket: Robot on Wheels and probably some other games I'm forgetting. The point-and-click to grasp things has made Yoshi's transition to 3D more organic, I think. Overall he's acceptable, though I think I still prefer playing as Mario alone.
What's the deal with this: "Here's a yes/no question, here are your options: Yes and Yes." Is it supposed to be a cute subversion of the traditional thing linear games do, where if you pick "No", you just get another dialogue box and then the same question? Kind of funny, but there's still too much damned talking / condescending instruction in this game. I know there will be some players who didn't get a chance to play Mario Galaxy 1, but can we at least have an option to skip it?
That's a lot of complaining, but honestly, I'm still liking this game a lot and am glad I bought it.
That Yoshi grabbing is also in one other game, Yoshi's Story :D.
I've been playing it off an on since Saturday, but most of my gaming time has been taken up by Alpha Protocol. SMG2 is a fun game, has some moments that can be pretty tough, and I'm enjoying it.
It hasn't blown me away like the first game did, but that's to be expected.
Huh. How 'bout that. I'm behind the times. :) Still haven't played Twilight Princess...
You really ARE behind the times!
I didn't get even buy a Wii until a month or two ago. :p Although I did put in some Mario Galaxy and Metroid Prime 3 time when I lived with a guy who had one.
Once I finally got over my "Twilight Princess's story is stupid and sexist, the game starts slow, boring, and too linearly, and the game is too easy" problems and actually got past the second dungeon (Note: that took almost two years. Yes, really.), I quickly realized that it was indeed one of the best games on the Gamecube, and it's easily in my top 5 on the platform now... though it's still easy and has a story I have a lot of problems with, the gameplay itself is so great that it overcomes that.
That is to say, play it!
I liked Zelda in the first half of the game, not so much in the second half.
Do you guys recommend the GameCube or the Wii version?
I've only played it for GC, and it's fantastic there. The Wii version has widescreen support while the GC doesn't (right?), but the GC has camera controls while the Wii doesn't. And on Wii you need to swing the Wiimote to swing the sword, instead of just being able to use a button... that does not sound like it would be as good, having to swing the thing every time.
Yes, you "need to have fun", as ABF said :D. Admittedly the motion controls are a bit tacked on, but I had a great time. I honestly loved the game from start to finish and felt the latter half was even better than the first.
As to which version, every single person I know got the Wii version because we all just HAD to get the Wii (ahhh hype machines...). One other detail, the ENTIRE UNIVERSE is mirrored in the Wii game. The official reason is to make Link right-handed, but... mirroring the entire game wasn't really needed to accomplish that. Plus, the Wii controller's unique setup means that it really doesn't matter which hand you hold it in. Why not just have the USER switch which hand they hold each controller in? Even better, ASK the user if they are left or right handed at the start. Oh well, it doesn't really affect too much unless you go from one version to the other and get lost, I'd imagine.
I'd recommend the Wii version if only because I had fun with the controls and the game is smoother on it.
To ABF: I'm just at a loss as to how you can view the story as stupid or sexist. It's one of the better stories in a Zelda game in a long time with a lot of interesting revelations and good characterization, and there's plenty of "strong female" characters in the game.
Quote:As to which version, every single person I know got the Wii version because we all just HAD to get the Wii (ahhh hype machines...). One other detail, the ENTIRE UNIVERSE is mirrored in the Wii game. The official reason is to make Link right-handed, but... mirroring the entire game wasn't really needed to accomplish that. Plus, the Wii controller's unique setup means that it really doesn't matter which hand you hold it in. Why not just have the USER switch which hand they hold each controller in? Even better, ASK the user if they are left or right handed at the start. Oh well, it doesn't really affect too much unless you go from one version to the other and get lost, I'd imagine.
It is pretty weird, but I guess there are some places where somehow which hand Link has the weapon in matters or something?
I don't get why they felt they had to invert the entire world either, but they must have a decent reason, or I can't imagine them ever going to such effort when something easier would have done it...
On that note though, there's one more reason why the Gamecube version is superior -- Link is a lefty like he should be, and the world isn't inside out. :)
... Plus those little Gamecube discs look cooler. The main reason to get the Wii version really I'd think is for people with widescreen TVs who don't like a bordered or stretched picture, or who really like the motion controls...
Well there's a difference of opinion there on the quality, and that's fine. (I personally loved the way the characters were portrayed myself, and thought they added a lot of interesting layers to their personas.) I just don't see the sexist part of it. Zelda, you say she was "useless", and she did have to be rescued and all, but the way I saw it she was doing the very best she could in a dire situation. She wasn't really regretting her past actions, just her inability to do something more, but she certainly was doing what she could. In fact everything would have been lost if not for what she had done. That's my take on it anyway.
I did like Link's Awakening and it's story, but it's not the only one that's unique. Pretty much every second Zelda game has a unique angle on the whole thing. The first one in any new era seems to be where Link beats Ganon, with all the standard tropes of the series. The second is always some one-off with a somewhat unrelated plot. Zelda II, the Zelda from the first game seems to be busy running the kingdom (and doing quite well, there's actual towns around), and your job is to find the missing piece of the trifoce (and save an ancient princess from ages past, but she wasn't exactly some dainty flower, she fought back against an evil prince and that prince only "won" by the cowardly tactic of hiring an evil wizard to put her to sleep). Ganon is only present if you die, the main threat being Link's inner shadow. Link's Awakening, well you know. Majora's Mask also was pretty different, all about saving a friend from himself. The various "Vaati" stories all are pretty much the same, yeah. This new Zelda game, a sequel to Twilight Princess, is probably going to have a unique spin-off story too. I'd give the Zeldas in this series a little more credit. They may not be fighters, but they DO make a difference, they do actually ACT, and aren't just there to be helpless the entire time. Also, it's always nice that Zelda has, from the start, represented the aspect of wisdom. She's smart (probably explaining how she ends up behind so many doors you had to solve so many puzzles to get to). This is opposed to Peach, who represents the aspect of a klutz.
Oh, and I loved Zant. He was extremely creepy and the guy you just wanted to hate throughout most of the game. Then you find out his story, he's just a jealous subordinate desperately trying to make something of himself. When his plans fall apart, you see through that "cool collected" act of his to see his true self, a fool who can't stand losing. I though it was a well done story.
lazyfatbum Wrote:Sexism: Women are physically weaker, always. Unless they're body builders or whatever but even then, compare a male body builder to a female and guess who's stronger, larger, etc? The best chefs, artists, musicians, painters, directors, writers you name it, are men. This is because men CANNOT GIVE BIRTH and therefore put all their mental strengths towards creativity, even subconsciously. What does this mean? Men will always out-do women - in EVERYTHING and women cannot compete. You can find rare examples here and there but they just dont have the drive. In the olympics the men's run is longer than the woman's, women are brilliant at organizing and managing systems but horrible at critical thinking - that is a scientifically tested conclusion and anyone who's ever been around women would see that. It sounds like I hate women, and I do. But it's still facts.
Well if anyone ever wondered how sexist (and angry) you were, here's the answer in a paragraph: Very, very much.
I'm sure you don't care (about actual facts), but I have to say a few things anyway...
Quote:Sexism: Women are physically weaker, always. Unless they're body builders or whatever but even then, compare a male body builder to a female and guess who's stronger, larger, etc?
First, you want some physical advantages? Reading what you said you'd think that women have none. That isn't true, actually -- women have a higher pain tolerance (giving birth HURTS!) and better endurance -- in long running races, the longer the race, the narrower the gap between men and women. They also, of course, have a longer lifespan.
That, of course, doesn't get into the mental differences, such as parts of the brain (what this means is still quite controversial I believe) or emotions, which, as I understand it, seems to be that women are better at understanding and expressing their emotions than men are. Men and women have the exact same amount of emotions, of course, all are humans, but in general men are worse at understanding them.
Quote:In the olympics the men's run is longer than the woman's,
As should be obvious, that is only true because of sexism and historical bias against women. The same goes for tennis, where women play fewer sets per match -- there is no real reason behind it, only historical sexism against women who "of course can't do the same length of a match that men can". We now know that that is absolutely false, but unfortunately it is still true that not all sports events are equal.
Quote:women are brilliant at organizing and managing systems but horrible at critical thinking
"Brilliant" and "horrible"? You very vastly exaggerate of course. There are mental differences between the genders, though we don't know exactly how much of that is cultural and how much is actually natural, but there is more difference between people in general. Every person is different.
Anyway, I don't really know what you're referring to with "horrible at critical thinking". Is the old, stupid "women are bad at math" thing related to it? There is absolutely zero evidence that that is anything other than cultural. None whatsoever -- and some evidence that it is indeed cultural, in fact. Younger girls and boys are the same at math, but as they get older girls start to fall behind... particularly in classes where the teacher said things (often just subtly) about how girls aren't as good at math...
Quote:You can find rare examples here and there but they just dont have the drive.
One part of that could be explained by that men have more testosterone and thus are more likely to really push for what they want, but another part of it is that the very long legacy of oppression will do wonders on people's minds...
For example, I was just reading that evidently, in some Middle Eastern countries (I think the poll was in Egypt), a poll of women found that something like two thirds of women think that it should be okay for a man to be allowed to murder his wife if he saw her looking at another man, or something like that. When people are told from day one that something is a certain way, few people will question that, even if any impartial observer would say that those rules are incredibly horrible.
For an example on the testosterone point, in many modern hunter-gatherer societies, women in general actually collect more food than men do... but because they're collecting (or growing) plants, perhaps fish on the shore or small animals, things like that, their contributions are considered less important and noteworthy than the contributions of the men, which are a smaller proportion of the diet, but are of big animals. If the men hunted animals they'd be more likely to catch they'd actually catch more food, but they go for prestige and the big kill over what would provide the most, and then if they get back with it they get a lot of prestige for it, which is of course a good part of why they do it. I don't know if any human societies have been truly without any sexism, somehow humans seem to be designed to divide things into a gender-based division of labor and then for men to say that theirs are better and more important. Is that true? Sometimes yes, but not always.
Culture can have an impact on this, though. That's what we've been trying to do for the past century, even out the differences and make things more fair. We've come a long way on it, but still have quite a ways to go.
Quote: The best chefs, artists, musicians, painters, directors, writers you name it, are men.
Because of cultural bias, sure. Things are slowly changing.
Quote:This is because men CANNOT GIVE BIRTH and therefore put all their mental strengths towards creativity, even subconsciously.
Entirely irrelevant to anything else in this post. That you think this actually is a relevant point says a lot about your hatred problem. This "point" makes so little sense that only a very sexist person would say something so deludedly stupid...
Oh yeah, and relationships and children to matter a lot to men as well as women... but also, I would mention my above "men are worse at understanding their emotions" point here to perhaps explain part of why people could say things like you did there.
Quote:Sexism. Pah. You wanna see sexism? Women get paid more in pornos than men do.
Because men are most of the ones watching, and they don't care that much about the men in the videos. That'd be the reason.