On a glowing recommendation, I picked up a copy of MH3 this past week and have been playing it quite a bit. I'd never played an iteration of the series before, and so far I'm quite enjoying it.
Anyone else gotten ahold of one, or is thinking of doing so?
I looked at the title, it's Monster Hunter 3 Tri. I find that offensive!
And EM, you may not have seen my thread on my GREAT LOSS. The horror... the horror...
I'll probably wait until Christmas time to get, too many other games are coming out this summer that I want to get instead.
I'm definitely interested, I'll get it eventually for sure.
So a friend of mine has this game now, which comes with the remodelled classic controller. It seems that they removed the analog trigger function from the L and R buttons. I guess no Wii games were using that... Disappointing really, as I had always thought the original classic controller could easily be used as a Gamecube controller with a small firmware update (and for future use should they decide to sell Gamecube games on their online store). Removing this from their "pro" version damages that possibility a bit, requiring people to get the "original classic" (still for sale right now) or a Gamecube controller (only for sale on their online store at the moment, and possibly not for long at that considering they removed the memory cards from the store).
Other than that, I find the setup of the new controller surprisingly awkward. The "grips" aren't nearly as nice as the Gamecube controller and just sort of sit there, the "main" part otherwise being just like the standard classic. I end up holding it the same way. The shoulder buttons are styled like the Playstation controller. They're fine, but the ability to hit two buttons with one finger on the original classic was a neat innovation I had thought. Anyway, it does the job but really isn't much of a remodel. Since analog pressure was removed from L and R, it's actually worse, and lazy. Putting "pro" on it is very misleading.
If I were to remodel their classic controller, I'd do the following: I'd still add grips, but they'd be much more comfortable and the whole ergonomic design would resemble the Gamecube controller, only with more button room. The buttons would all basically be the same size and placement, I consider the classic's D-pad the best one yet, even nicer than the SNES d-pad, except I'd round the corners more so they don't dig into the thumb as much. I'd add two more buttons so the face buttons are a 6 button layout. This would mainly be for Genesis, Saturn, and N64 games. There are still a number of N64 games where the C-Button commands don't map out very gracefully to the right analog stick. lazy has some issues with movement in Perfect Dark for example, though I'm talking more about quick response shooting eggs in Banjo or the awkwardness of playing the Ocarina in the N64 Zelda games (the frog mini-game in particular is far easier on the N64 controller). I've learned to like the current shoulder button placement, but setting it up similar to the Gamecube only with ZL and ZR more easily reachable than Z ever was would also be nice.
I would also make the controller independant from the Wii remote. It would use it's own batteries. I'd prefer to make them rechargable li-ion instead of AAs though, as Nintendo should have done from the start. Along these lines, add Rumble (OOT lacking Rumble in it's Wii version is a pretty bad oversight considering it was used to find a lot of secrets) and a speaker like the Wii remote (so that games like SSBB can still "speak" through the controller when you pick a character, all this can be done in such a way as to be invisible to the system itself, it doesn't need to know that it's actually a new controller and not a classic connnected to a Wii remote).
Since Pro is now taken, this version I'd just call the Elite, modelled after Microsoft's naming scheme. It'd be more expensive due to these added features, but I'd still get it. It'd be the perfect controller for all "classic" gaming purposes.
Excellent ideas. I read somewhere that Capcom actually designed the pro and during an interview they basically said "It's a PS2 controller hur dur".
The analog shoulders would have been so perfect for any game that involves flying or flapping wings. Hold them down to bring the wings in, increasing speed. Let go to open the wings for gliding. Pushing them and letting them go rhythmically for flapping to maintain speeds and gain altitude. You could use the digital click as either a fully locked dive maneuver or make the digital click the air brake. So you're diving at the last analog level, but when you need to practically stop, quickly click the shoulder buttons all the way in and release to open the wings like a parachute.
Oh well. I imagine Nintendo's next incarnation will probably be wand-a-riffic but with a classic controller that allows the (smaller) wands to fit inside it, giving the controller the ability to point and detect mvement as well. Hopefully anyway.
Yes, analog sensitivity does things like that :D.
The thing is, the PS2 controller has analog buttons, like ALL of them but start, select, and the two digital clicks under the analog sticks. So, it's odd to remove it from L and R here. Yeah, they're useful, and the Nintendo ones I'd say are better because there's a lot more tactile feedback.
I've always hated the Playstation controller... that this generation all three consoles have adapted versions of it has been really, really tragic. The N64 and Saturn both have controllers that utterly destroy the Playstation's, it's so depressing to see how the worst of the three has won... :bummed:
Well ya know the Classic (first version) much more closely resembles a Super Nintendo controller.
The Xbox360 controller is one of my favorite controllers, aside from the d-pad.
N64 controller all the way. Lubed.
I played on a N64 rip-off once, it had a control stick as perfect as the XBox 360 and the face buttons were rubberized as well as the stick, too. Built in rumble as well. Never found the manufacturer on it, but playing Doom III was as fast as Halo for me.
It was PC only and EVERYTHING had to be mapped and calibrated. After the N64 controller i'd have to say the Wii Remote and Nunchuck set up but I hate the fact that the stick is inside an octogonal shape so you can perform round circles, you actually run in the shape of a stop sign instead. I bet if they made it so you could push down on the stick you get round smoothness and easing the pressure off brings it back to octo edging a lot of people would be happy, subconsciously. Anyone here ever try "Nights: In to Dreams" on Wii? I felt so jipped as I flew in perfect angles instead of the Saturn's rounded niceness.
Dark Jaguar Wrote:Well ya know the Classic (first version) much more closely resembles a Super Nintendo controller.
Controllerwise, in my opinion... (just listing a few)
N64 > Saturn 3D > Dreamcast > Genesis 6-button... with the Gamecube and then SNES probably taking the next two slots, along with the Saturn model 2 either between them or after the SNES.
Point being, I think that Nintendo's controllers have improved since the SNES. Well, the SNES has a better d-pad than the GC, but overall the GC controller is better, and the N64 controller better still. The Wiimote/Nunchuck is of course very hard to compare to anything, but the Classic Controller is easy, and it's not better than the N64 or GC controllers, that's for sure. The Pro is no improvement, it looks even more like a PSX controller now as I said.
Great Rumbler Wrote:The Xbox360 controller is one of my favorite controllers, aside from the d-pad.
I haven't spent that much time with the 360 controller, but it's okay I guess. Not great, not awful. Better than the PS3 controller for sure.
For the original Xbox though, I'm one of the weird people who prefers the original controller to the S...
lazyfatbum Wrote:After the N64 controller i'd have to say the Wii Remote and Nunchuck set up but I hate the fact that the stick is inside an octogonal shape so you can perform round circles, you actually run in the shape of a stop sign instead. I bet if they made it so you could push down on the stick you get round smoothness and easing the pressure off brings it back to octo edging a lot of people would be happy, subconsciously. Anyone here ever try "Nights: In to Dreams" on Wii? I felt so jipped as I flew in perfect angles instead of the Saturn's rounded niceness.
... All Nintendo analog sticks, in the N64, GC, and Wii, use octagonal borders. It's one of Nintendo's signature controller features, along with things like how in the GC and Wii they haven't used analog click buttons under their analog sticks. Most of the time, I think that the octagonal design is by far the best. NiGHTS is best with a circular-design stick, I agree, but for pretty much anything else, octagonal is the best... (square is the worst, by the way. Points in the diagonals but not on the sides? Ugh...)
A Black Falcon Wrote:... All Nintendo analog sticks, in the N64, GC, and Wii, use octagonal borders. It's one of Nintendo's signature controller features, along with things like how in the GC and Wii they haven't used analog click buttons under their analog sticks. Most of the time, I think that the octagonal design is by far the best. NiGHTS is best with a circular-design stick, I agree, but for pretty much anything else, octagonal is the best... (square is the worst, by the way. Points in the diagonals but not on the sides? Ugh...)
That's true, and I never saw a square inset for an analog stick, that's bizarre. But I was referncing the N64's stick how you could perform perfect circles unless you pressed really hard and 'guided' on the walls of the octogonal inset. When playing Mario 64 you can easily circle around those arranged coins and ice skate beautifully on the shell all in fluid motion. Playing PD it's easy to fire automatics in rounded motions while strafing on an incline for example. But the GC and Chuck make it difficult to edge the quickness without hitting the inset. The N64 stick is more 'spongy' meaning it has more of an organic movement range.
On a related note, I found something funny that basically describes how to take a part a nunchuck and grind the octogon down to a smooth circle. I wonder if it's worth it?
Hmm... I honestly don't see the difference there between analog sticks, except I prefer Nintendo's later ones. I like the 6 button layout of the N64, but other than that, I prefer the Gamecube controller or the classic controller (classic mainly for that d-pad goodness).
I think maybe one good idea might be that instead of an octagonal shape, let's use a circle shape but with some tiny triangular "notches" at the 8 directional corners. I think that could be the best of both worlds.
Oh, and I've seen square shaped analog stick depressions. It's basically an attempt to get the same full "range" as a joystick, which traditionally have square depressions themselves. However, they really are aweful.
The notches are a good idea. I can see that being implemented on a circle. That way it just feels like a tactile click so you know what true left, true diagonal, etc are. Good idea is good.
There, we have an awesome flying game that uses the (now obsolete) analog triggers and a re-design for the inset of the control stick. Pay up Nintendo.
Dark Jaguar Wrote:Hmm... I honestly don't see the difference there between analog sticks, except I prefer Nintendo's later ones. I like the 6 button layout of the N64, but other than that, I prefer the Gamecube controller or the classic controller (classic mainly for that d-pad goodness).
You don't see the difference between an N64 and GC analog stick, really? They look and feel very different, though... and while I disagree with Lazy that the GC/Wii style's octagonal border is a problem, I agree that the N64's analog stick feel is better. I've always liked the feel of the N64 analog stick a lot... if only they didn't break down so easily they'd be the best for sure. As it is they're just really good, and I still love the N64's analog stick.
Anyway, I prefer the N64's 6 face button layout, I like its Z button far better than the GC's shoulder buttons, I like the seperated d-pad and analog stick (so that both are in the perfect position, instead of one being a little less comfortable to use)... it's just such a great controller. The GC controller is good too, but just not quite as good.
Quote:I think maybe one good idea might be that instead of an octagonal shape, let's use a circle shape but with some tiny triangular "notches" at the 8 directional corners. I think that could be the best of both worlds.
Oh, and I've seen square shaped analog stick depressions. It's basically an attempt to get the same full "range" as a joystick, which traditionally have square depressions themselves. However, they really are aweful.
That is true, good point -- joysticks usually do have square-bordered sticks. Almost always really, now that you mention it. Somehow it works for them, but when you put it in a mini stick on a gamepad, it just doesn't work anywhere near as well, as you say.
(I wonder how a joystick would feel with an octagon or circle bound... hmm, I don't know. I'm so used to the square ones...)
Quote:That's true, and I never saw a square inset for an analog stick, that's bizarre.
It's used for some PC gamepads, such as Saitek's. It's... not good. Saitek's gamepads really are quite good, but that square analog stick border is annoying...
What I mean is I don't see one as more accurate than the other. They do feel different, and in all honesty, I prefer the feel of the Gamecube and Wii analog sticks. I've had a lot more control in my games with those than the N64 stick. The degredation is a big issue too. Recently I found hotels have some deal with Nintendo to play old N64 games using some network system. Their controllers replace the old stick with one that's more like the Gamecube, but is otherwise the same as an N64 controller. Anyway, this is basically a place where we simply disagree. I prefer a little less resistance in my analog stick, you prefer more. Hmm, I wonder if that could be adjusted on a single controller, like tightening or loosening a screw on the back or something...
I agree about the Z button. The shoulder buttons on the Gamecube are very comfortable, VERY nice, but let's face ergonomic reality here. Twisting your index finger to the top of the controller strains it, feeling uncomfortable. The Z button is just in a better position, and so even if it is just a rectangle, it still wins in comfort. Put the comfort of the gamecube analog triggers (and functionality for that matter) where the Z button is placed, you have perfection. Actually I've thought this ever since the Virtual Boy controller. Say what you will about the system, and a lot of it is warrented, but the controller was incredibly comfortable, not least because the L and R buttons were on the back like the Z button. I never had any issues with misfiring either, so I'm really confused as to why Nintendo went back to putting L and R on the top.
About the 3 prong design, I can understand your argument about "perfect positioning", but let's recognize something here, the analog stick was hardly perfectly erganomically placed. It's on a prong directly on the vertical, directly above the prong. It gets the job done, but isn't ideal. It's much better placed on the Gamecube. The d-pad however IS very well placed. It's true that with better middle prong design they could have that done well, but there's one issue. The L button in that setup is redundant, not really being usable as an extra button considering having to switch your hand to another prong to use it. Further, any extra features mapped to the d-pad in a game using the stick for movement become equally hard to use, needing to switch prongs to use them. There are controllers that do a very good job with compromise though. Again, I love the placement of the d-pad and analog stick on the classic controller, and the XBox 360 controller for that matter. They do a good job letting you place your thumb either way and just move your palm around to make it a good fit. That's not really true for the Playstation controller (I'll note that you shouldn't "grip" those handles on the Playstation controller, just let the ends rest in your palms, though the need to do that is exactly why the ergonomics of that controller are in bad need of a redesign).