Tendo City

Just watched the finale of Sora no Woto.

Is that an anime, Rumbler?

Bah, it's a good show.

It was potentially good show ruined by lackadaisical writing and direction.

Why would you say that? Explain...

Just look at the ending. No risks taken, no new ground broken, it's a a love conquers all ending. Aside from a few episodes, they routinely took the easy way out with a setting that had much more depth than they gave it credit for.

Or, if you want a specific thing: the "villain" at the end. He comes from nowhere, provides some mild peril, and then is promptly swept aside and everyone's happy again. Nobody loses anything, nobody gives anything up, and even Rio appears again at the end with the awkward explanation that Roman's Archduke is actually "a pretty reasonable guy".

Warning: Spoilers!

He doesn't come out of nowhere, him and what he had done (or a version of it) had been mentioned or referred to many times through the series. He doesn't actually appear until the second-to-last episode, sure, but Vingt, the Invisible Death... those we had heard of and he was closely connected to them.

Loss -- No, Rio has to give up on her opposition to what her father wanted, I think that's significant... yes the "the Emperor isn't that bad" part is kind of lame, but still. She definitely had to give up something important.

You're not giving the show, and the last few episodes, enough credit. I mean, from Rio having to give up on her opposition to being royalty to Noel having to face what she had done in getting that bioweapons plant running again (that led to Hopkins using the weapons to kill a bunch of people, many of them innocent) to the scene where Kureha and Filicia debate what they should do and Kureha breaks down... oh, and how about how they do go out there and kill Hopkins and his people? Loss of innocence for the recruits, I think.

I mean sure, it could have been more depressing. But why would that have made it better? In my opinion, it wouldn't have!

As for my questions about the final episode, see here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.p...21&page=23 (bottom of the page)

Quote:He doesn't actually appear until the second-to-last episode, sure,

And there's the problem. He gets mentioned in passing a couple of times, but that hardly lends him an presence. But then in the second-to-last episode who swoops in, professes his intention to get thousand of people killed to satisfy his bloodlust, and provides some mild menace until how turns into a complete puss and turns tail because of some angry, unarmed civilians. It certainly doesn't help matters that he's just a walking stereotype.

Quote:Loss -- No, Rio has to give up on her opposition to what her father wanted, I think that's significant... yes the "the Emperor isn't that bad" part is kind of lame, but still. She definitely had to give up something important.

She didn't give up anything because in the end she goes right back to where she wanted to be all along. That's hardly a sacrifice.

Quote:Noel having to face what she had done in getting that bioweapons plant running again

Throwing that in at the very end and not properly developing it would fall under lazy writing as well. It's another one of those "come out of nowhere" plot points that doesn't get its fair due because they had to cram everything into 12 episodes.

Quote:Loss of innocence for the recruits, I think.

Yes, they clearly showed their loss of innocence in the final scene where they're happy and laughing.

This, of course, makes no mention of all the little details and hints that get brushed aside. The giant skeleton? Who knows. As it stands it's just a MacGuffin. The war Felicia fought in? Who knows. Could be Rome or could be anything else. The talk about the world soon coming to an end? The only conclusion is that it was just metaphorical.

I'm sure it didn't help my disposition towards the ending much by watching it right after I finished A Certain Scientific Railgun where they pulled out pretty much exactly the same ending, which I absolutely hated.

Great Rumbler Wrote:And there's the problem. He gets mentioned in passing a couple of times, but that hardly lends him an presence. But then in the second-to-last episode who swoops in, professes his intention to get thousand of people killed to satisfy his bloodlust, and provides some mild menace until how turns into a complete puss and turns tail because of some angry, unarmed civilians. It certainly doesn't help matters that he's just a walking stereotype.

I actually thought that his stated motivations for wanting to start the war were clever and accurate, to a point. The way he died also was quite ironic...

Specifically, Hopkins said that the reason he wanted to start a war was that technology advances faster during a war than during peacetime, I believe, and that he wanted the world to regain its lost technology, and he believed that the quickest way to accomplish that would be to start a war. It was actually a clever reason I thought, and actually accurate -- during wars military technology advances faster than during peacetime without question. Of course, it doesn't justify what he was going to do, and their rebuilding the tank from the past, during peacetime, seemed kind of an ironic counter to his argument I thought. Not that he listened. Oops. :)

Quote:She didn't give up anything because in the end she goes right back to where she wanted to be all along. That's hardly a sacrifice.

Not right back, there was a timeskip. Also why is there no sacrifice just because she goes back? There was a big sacrifice before then... she had to completely give in on her beliefs and dreams pretty much. I think that matters.

Quote:Throwing that in at the very end and not properly developing it would fall under lazy writing as well. It's another one of those "come out of nowhere" plot points that doesn't get its fair due because they had to cram everything into 12 episodes.

That's just false though. It wasn't just thrown in, and it didn't come out of nowhere. The show did a great job of hinting at things without saying them right out until they really mattered, and that's exactly what happened there. We knew about the Invisible Death. We learned that it had killed the people in several towns, and had been used during the war against the "Romans" (who have a Romanian-style flag and speak German, so I'm not sure where they're actually supposed to be... considering that Helvetia is supposed to be in Switzerland, write in French (and speak it maybe, even though it's technically in Japanese?), and have a French/Spanish/Japanese mix culture, who knows really.

Oh yeah, and Aisha or whatever looks Indian, so Rome is Indian/Romanian/German/Italian and Helvetia is Spanish/French/Swiss/Japanese, I guess? Entertaining stuff. :)

Anyway, getting to the point, the issue of the Invisible Death and the disease had been a central point in the show, referenced repeatedly throughout. Why do you think that the church woman is caring for all of those orphans? Remember the episode where we learn about their backstory, and how ones' parents died in the Invisible Death? There was just one example of the references. Another example would be when everyone made the little "boat" remembrance shrine things and let them float down the river. Noel did not make one, unlike everyone else. We didn't learn why at the time, but learning about her role in the Invisible Death explains why -- she felt responsible for the deaths of many of those people, so she didn't think it'd be right to do one...

So yes, it had most certainly been referenced, a lot. All that remained was learning the exact details of what had happened, and that's what happened in episode 11. It was one of the major pieces of the plot, and I think it was done really well.

I do have some problems with the show, sure, but that's definitely not one of them.

Quote:Yes, they clearly showed their loss of innocence in the final scene where they're happy and laughing.

That was months later, I'm pretty sure. We don't see the immediate aftermath. And also they were just blowing up tanks. When you are destroying vehicles, buildings, etc. it is easier to pretend that there aren't people involved than when you are directly killing people. But still it happened, and I'm sure it affected them in some way.

Quote:This, of course, makes no mention of all the little details and hints that get brushed aside. The giant skeleton? Who knows. As it stands it's just a MacGuffin

They don't tell us precisely what happened, but they do give us a new, different, and interesting legend in the last episode. Mixing the legend in the episode with something that someone at GAF interpreted it as meaning, what seems to have most likely happened was that aliens invaded the earth who looked like giant birds (or Rodan or something, as I've also heard them called :)). They and humans started fighting for an unexplained reason. They were wiping out humanity, but one got injured and took refuge in the valley near the fortress in the show. The maidens in the fort healed the alien, and it gave them a horn in return. However, the people in the town found out and set the valley on fire, killing the alien and the maidens. A large number of aliens came, planning on killing the people in the town. However, before dying one of the maidens blew on the horn, showing the other aliens that the humans were not all evil, and they called off their attack and spared the people. And that's how the earth got into the state it's in.

Seems like a reasonable theory, considering what we know. Of course we don't know anything about the origin of the "aliens", but why would people know that centuries after the near-complete collapse of civilization? It makes sense that all they'd have are myths and legends, and the writers decided not to have some random thing happen that magically explained the whole thing for the benefit of the viewer. Slightly frustrating, sure, but more consistent with the world, which was obviously always something that mattered to the writers. I think it works.

Quote: The war Felicia fought in? Who knows. Could be Rome or could be anything else.

Um, that was the war against Rome. You really weren't paying any attention at all, were you? It explained the whole thing in depth really, or as much as you could expect from a 12-episode anime...

Rome and Helvetia had a war. One of the key battles in the war was Vingt, a battle where the arrival of Iliya's troops was central. All of the characters had a connection to Iliya and most to Vingt as well.

Anyway, during the war Rome tried to conquer Helvetia, but failed after Helvetia used biological weapons, namely the "Invisible Death" that Noel was key to figuring out how to make again in an ancient, pre-crash factory. Also, the Roman Emperor wanted to marry Iliya, the (elder) princess of Helvetia. However, she died in that random accident (while trying to save a child from a flooding river, evidently), and Rio refused to marry him in her place; she wanted nothing to do with her father.

Quote:The talk about the world soon coming to an end? The only conclusion is that it was just metaphorical.

The ending note is obviously supposed to be Kanata's optimism and hope, and not "it's over and ending". Kanata was saying that people like the ghost soldier were wrong when they said that the world was ending, and that if people try they can still live and improve things again and have peace. That message I like for sure. I definitely like it a lot more with an optimistic ending than I would with a "the world is dying, the characters all just got slaughtered, the end" ending like they could have done. That kind of thing has been done enough...

Quote:I'm sure it didn't help my disposition towards the ending much by watching it right after I finished A Certain Scientific Railgun where they pulled out pretty much exactly the same ending, which I absolutely hated.

As I said I dropped Railgun after ep. 9... just didn't hold my interest well enough.

Quote:Not right back, there was a timeskip. Also why is there no sacrifice just because she goes back? There was a big sacrifice before then... she had to completely give in on her beliefs and dreams pretty much. I think that matters.

In the end, nothing whatsoever has changed for them. They go right back to being a happy, laughing group of friends as if nothing at all had happened. That's the very definition of a slice-of-life ending.

Quote:It was one of the major pieces of the plot, and I think it was done really well.

It's revealed she had a hand in it, she freaks out, eventually Felicia tells her that it's okay and not her fault because Hopkins just used her. Then it's all forgotten. Noel never once has to face the children who were affected by it or anyone else for that matter. At the end of episode 12 she's just as happy and care-free as the others. Again, as if nothing at all had happened to her.

Quote:We don't see the immediate aftermath.

And that's why the ending fails.

Quote:Seems like a reasonable theory, considering what we know.

It's that's all it'll ever be.

Great Rumbler Wrote:In the end, nothing whatsoever has changed for them. They go right back to being a happy, laughing group of friends as if nothing at all had happened. That's the very definition of a slice-of-life ending.

Um, no... a LOT has changed for them! Kanata is now quite good at playing music and has changed as a person somewhat (perhaps a little more mature? She did go and fight after all, even some of the other characters weren't sure if she could...), Noel has at least partially gotten past some severe trauma from her past, Rio had to give up on some of her dreams for the good of her country, etc... I don't think at all that just because they ended with a happy scene that nothing changed. It's not really true.

Also, I don't think I'd call anything with this much drama and sadness just a slice-of-life show...

Quote:It's revealed she had a hand in it, she freaks out, eventually Felicia tells her that it's okay and not her fault because Hopkins just used her. Then it's all forgotten. Noel never once has to face the children who were affected by it or anyone else for that matter. At the end of episode 12 she's just as happy and care-free as the others. Again, as if nothing at all had happened to her.

That's wrong though. Did you really miss the scenes showing Aisha with the disease? She had actually gotten it herself, but survived... and she forgave Noel. That was a vital part in getting Noel to be able to go and fight to stop the war, and a great scene...

Also the woman from the orphanage (I forget her name) is raising a bunch of children whose parents died of the disease and surely knows of many people who died of it because the affected villages seem to have been near the area the show is set in, and she forgives Noel too... you're just wrong.

As for the ending, they wanted to end with a happy scene to show that this show ultimately is upbeat and not sad, despite the many sad events of the show itself. I like that about it, myself.

Quote:And that's why the ending fails.

It's a perfectly reasonable ending style that has been done many times. I thought it worked just fine.

Quote:It's that's all it'll ever be.

And what's wrong with that? They must explain every detail of you are not satisfied? Man you must have hated Haibane Renmei... (which, remember, is my second favorite anime ever)

Quote:Man you must have hated Haibane Renmei...

We've been down this road before at GAF.

Anyway, I'm tired of arguing over something that I really didn't like all that much.