Tendo City

link

Han shot first

Lucas is a billionaire swimming in an ocean of money. His fans are over-the-hill man-children with nothing better to do but complain about a series of action-adventure movies.

Of course he doesn't care.

Considering YOU are in fact a nerd, I'd think you'd know enough to realize that's hardly an accurate generalization.

I may be a Star Wars fan, but I definitely don't agree with those who hate the PT, Special Editions, Indy 4, etc. I mean, I don't like everything he did of course, but much more of it was good than bad. They're too critical... but fans can be that way, I know. They want it to be the way they remember it, and not any other way. Understandable, but as has been said often here by several of us, it's Lucas's franchise so he can do what he wants with it... and plus, most of the changes and stylistic choices weren't bad ones.

Dark Jaguar Wrote:Considering YOU are in fact a nerd, I'd think you'd know enough to realize that's hardly an accurate generalization.

I'm a nerd so I know that it's fairly accurate.

Some times you've got to step back and look at something rationally. Lucas poured his soul into Star Wars, he took it from idea to screen by shear force of will. It's his to tweak and change and alter until it's the vision that he wants. The original films still exist and even with the changes, some of which aren't so hot, the OT is still fun.

If you're not having fun, then it's time to move on.

Don't defend him.

Prequels were inferior to the original trilogy.

Indy 4 sucked and it didn't have to.

In order from best to worst:

RotJ > AotC = ESB > ANH > TPM

But despite being last, TPM's a pretty good movie too.

As for Indy 4, I liked it. Good, fun movie.

You realize you're missing RotS, right? And I like the Prequel Trilogy, too. My top 5 goes ESB = AotC, RotS, ANH, PM, RotJ. PT ranks higher for me probably because I actually had the chance to anticpate them as new releases and watch them in theatres and stuff. I dunno, it's all part of one big saga for me, and I love it all.

These massive Star Wars purity enthusiasts are pretty damn crazy. Like Mark Twitchell, the guy who embarked on a pretty ambitious project to create a Star Wars sequel that was more true to the original trilogy after being disgusted by the PT. It was called "Star Wars: Secrets of the Rebellion" and he even got Jeremy Bulloch to star in it (Jeremy Bulloch played Boba Fett in the OT btw). Here's the YouTube video of Twitchell's project:
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/A-SddGNXSkQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/A-SddGNXSkQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Anyways, Twitchell is now in jail - he lured a man named Johnny Altinger through an online dating service to a dark garage, tortured him until he revealed his Facebook and computer passwords, murdered him (the body has never been found), and then updated all his e-mail and FB info to give off the impression that Altinger hadn't been murdered but rather met a woman named Jen and moved to Costa Rica. The full story is here: http://www.lastlinkontheleft.com/e2008altinger.html

So, long story short, OT purists are fucking insane.

Empire Strikes Back > A New Hope > Return of the Jedi = Revenge of the Sith > The Phantom Menace = Attack of the Clones [the third of the PT feels the most cohesive of the three, first two are just a mess of awful scenes mixed with a few good ones; Jedi weak compared to the first two of the OT, but I still have a special place in my heart for it, so it's at least equal to the best of PT if not better depending on my mood]

Raiders of the Lost Ark > Last Crusade > Kingdom of the Crystal Skull > Temple of Doom [might swap the last two depending on my mood, but the first two stay where they are]

Quote:Prequels were inferior to the original trilogy.

And? There's not some huge deficit of good-to-great movies such that I need to vigorously fight against each bad movie that comes along in the hopes that my efforts lead to some better movie down the road.

Quote:PT ranks higher for me probably because I actually had the chance to anticpate them as new releases and watch them in theatres and stuff. I dunno, it's all part of one big saga for me, and I love it all.

I probably would have said the same about the PT, as I watched them when they first came out in theaters as well, if I'd not seem them since. They don't hold up at all, unlike parts 1 and 2 of the OT and, to a lesser extent, part 3. The PT has a lot of really awful scenes and some of the choices that Lucas made just don't make any sense at all.

Most of this stuff should have been changed, or cut out completely, with successive drafts of the script, but I have a feeling that Lucas whipped out a script for each movie in a week or so and just went with it since there was really nothing on the line for him by the time the PT came around.

Whoops, show how well I'm thinking straight these days...

RotJ > RotS = ESB > ANH > AotC > TPM ... though AotC and ANH could and perhaps should switch. I have trouble choosing between some, obviously. :)

"Great Rumbler Wrote:...I have a feeling that Lucas whipped out a script for each movie in a week or so and just went with it since there was really nothing on the line for him by the time the PT came around.

Yeah but where on Earth does that feeling come from? I'd like to say that Lucas had a lot on the line - first of all, it's his life's work and reputation at stake, not to mention all the money he had invested in it. I honestly don't see the PT and OT being that much different. They're both full of camp and odd dialogue and bad acting and all that stuff. Really, I think it lies purely in the nostalgia value, the OT v. PT debate. OT purists watched the movies when they were young and the feeling they first got from first watching them was like, a magical experience. It's damn near impossible to expect that that feeling can ever be recreated, especially when they've aged 16 years or so. People change as they get older, which I think accounts for all this hatred of the PT from older folks. They just can't come to grips with the fact that Star Wars has passed them by. Young kids whose first introduction to Star Wars was the PT probably feel the same way as the older generation did the first time they watched ANH. To me, those experiences are far more interesting and relevant at this point. I'm tired of the old shit, let's bring on the new shit.

Lucas has nothing to lose, really. He's built up an empire worth billions and all the fighting he did during the late 70's to make his dream a reality is over and done. His movies were self-financed [from the profits of Star Wars toys] and he likely realized, and rightly so, that the anticipation of the Star Wars PT would trump whatever shortcoming the movies might have. And, at this point in his career and with the freedom he has, there's really no one who's going to challenge him on anything.

Here's the problem I have with the PT:

The Phantom Menace: Way too much "little kid has special powers that make up for his lack of any combat training, allowing him to destroy space stations with ease", Jar-Jar Binks ruins every scene he's in with cringe-inducing attempts to inject humor, bumbling droids troops, trying to explain the Force as a scientific phenomenon that can be measured [whereas in the OT it was much more mystical, Tarkin even said that Vader was the "last of his religion"], plot inconsistencies with the OT [these are present to some degree through all three].

Attack of the Clones: The romance between Anakin and Padme is horribly awkward in terms of acting and writing, the Ray Harryhausen-esque monster arena at the end is a bit too ridiculous, the scene where Anakin's mom dies [nothing about it feels right at all], Anakin's a bit too whiny [which is a problem in the next movie as well], C3PO suddenly spouting puns left and right for no reason at all.

Revenge of the Sith: Like I said before, this one feels the most coherent of the of three, but it's not without its own problems. Padme's mysterious death from a "broken heart", Anakin's whininess [as mentioned before], hit turn from "I want to save Padme and make the galaxy peaceful" to "Yeehaw! Let's kill little kids!" is way too fast even though they've been hinting at since the second movie, and...uh...General Grevious not getting enough development as a villain I guess.

The actors in the original 3 weren't exactly shooting for an Oscar, but they had a charm to them that feels completely absent from the actors in the PT, barring a couple of standouts like Laim Neeson and Ian McDiarmid.

Quote:Young kids whose first introduction to Star Wars was the PT probably feel the same way as the older generation did the first time they watched ANH.

A New Hope was nominated for Best Picture, Best Director, Best Writing, Best Supporting Actor for Alec Guinness. On top of winning six Oscars for the technical side of the movie.

Quote:new shit

Well, the PT is certainly that.

Quote:Lucas has nothing to lose, really. He's built up an empire worth billions and all the fighting he did during the late 70's to make his dream a reality is over and done. His movies were self-financed [from the profits of Star Wars toys] and he likely realized, and rightly so, that the anticipation of the Star Wars PT would trump whatever shortcoming the movies might have. And, at this point in his career and with the freedom he has, there's really no one who's going to challenge him on anything.

Oh come on, that's pure speculation. He's a professional filmmaker dammit. An artist. He's not just gonna mail it in, is my speculation.

Quote:The Phantom Menace: Way too much "little kid has special powers that make up for his lack of any combat training, allowing him to destroy space stations with ease", Jar-Jar Binks ruins every scene he's in with cringe-inducing attempts to inject humor, bumbling droids troops, trying to explain the Force as a scientific phenomenon that can be measured [whereas in the OT it was much more mystical, Tarkin even said that Vader was the "last of his religion"], plot inconsistencies with the OT [these are present to some degree through all three].

Noted - but the "little kid has special powers that make up for his lack of any combat training, allowing him to destroy space stations with ease" is basically the plot of ANH. Come on, man... Jar-Jar Binks has become possibly the most controversial character in the entire SW Universe, but weird aliens have always been welcome in the SW Universe. Nobody else found it hilarious that Chewbacca's language consists of growls and screams which everybody seems to understand, a la Boomhauer? As for bumbling droids, well, Stormtroopers are pretty stupid too... Their horrible accuracy is well documented. The rest I think is subjective and is honestly beyond my scope of knowledge of the SW universe. But I have read many, many articles detailing the plotholes and inconcistincies in the OT, so I don't think you can excuse that as error-less storytelling either.

Quote:Attack of the Clones: The romance between Anakin and Padme is horribly awkward in terms of acting and writing, the Ray Harryhausen-esque monster arena at the end is a bit too ridiculous, the scene where Anakin's mom dies [nothing about it feels right at all], Anakin's a bit too whiny [which is a problem in the next movie as well], C3PO suddenly spouting puns left and right for no reason at all.

Okay fine, but I think that's also subjective. I mean, in the OT, you had Leah and Luke kissing each other. Sorry, but how much more awkward can you get? And if we're talking about Harryhausen-esque monster scenes, to me nothing seemed more pointless than the Rancor scene in RotJ. At least the arena in AotC was exciting. In fact, it was AWESOME. Anakin's whiny and hates sand and all that, whatever. And his mom dies, well, at least that added some more emotion and humanized Anakin and perhaps gave some justification for his path than say, Yoda the Puppet dying, whom Luke only spent significant time with one single time.

Quote:Revenge of the Sith: Like I said before, this one feels the most coherent of the of three, but it's not without its own problems. Padme's mysterious death from a "broken heart", Anakin's whininess [as mentioned before], hit turn from "I want to save Padme and make the galaxy peaceful" to "Yeehaw! Let's kill little kids!" is way too fast even though they've been hinting at since the second movie, and...uh...General Grevious not getting enough development as a villain I guess.

Noted, I agree with all that. But there were some weird emotional turns in the OT as well. For example, Leah sees her entire planet being blown up and barely bats an eye. And other stuff. Also there was that one alien X-Wing pilot in ANH who was clearly meant to be a caricature of Japanese kamikaze pilots. What that has to do with my current train of thought I have no idea.

Quote:The actors in the original 3 weren't exactly shooting for an Oscar, but they had a charm to them that feels completely absent from the actors in the PT, barring a couple of standouts like Laim Neeson and Ian McDiarmid.

Also great performances from Sam Jackson, Ewan MacGregor, and Natalie Portman. Unlike many of the actors in the OT, the PT actors' careers didn't die when the series ended.

Quote:A New Hope was nominated for Best Picture, Best Director, Best Writing, Best Supporting Actor for Alec Guinness. On top of winning six Oscars for the technical side of the movie.

Yeah, because that's what all the kids care about, the Oscars! Also note ANH isn't universally regarded as the best movie in the saga despite recognition from the Academy - many, many will argue that ESB tops ANH and every other Star Wars flick, and that movie wasn't nominated for any important Oscars. In fact, I don't see what Oscar performance has to do with anything, and frankly I think it's an embarassment to all parties involved that ANH was nominated for Best Writing.

Quote:sure, the 'stiff' acting from TPM returns, but that's how Lucas wanted it.

Maybe he did and maybe he didn't, but it makes the scenes between Anakin and Padme absolutely terrible.

Quote:Oh come on, that's pure speculation. He's a professional filmmaker dammit. An artist. He's not just gonna mail it in, is my speculation.

BUT here's the thing, Lucas is no longer just a filmmaker. He stopped being that not long after Star Wars first hit the big time. He's a businessman now, a very successful business man who has created a business worth billions. He doesn't have to fight the system for anything anymore, he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone anymore; if he wants something done, then that something gets done because he IS the system.

Quote:but the "little kid has special powers that make up for his lack of any combat training, allowing him to destroy space stations with ease" is basically the plot of ANH.

Luke was hardly a "little kid". Also, Obi-Wan gave him some rudimentary training in how to use the Force and Luke flew one-man fighters back on Tatooine ["used to bull's eye womprats in my T-16" and "Just like Beggar's Canyon back home"]. Anakin knew how to race on the ground and that's it. He got in the spaceship by accident and flew it by accident and destroyed a space station by accidents, all without ever having been inside a spaceship before.

Quote:And if we're talking about Harryhausen-esque monster scenes, to me nothing seemed more pointless than the Rancor scene in RotJ.

It was a bit ridiculous in RotJ as well, the whole Jabba the Hut scene kind of was. The arena scene was a lot longer in AotC though.

Quote:Also there was that one alien X-Wing pilot in ANH who was clearly meant to be a caricature of Japanese kamikaze pilots.

Eh? There weren't any alien pilots in A New Hope.

Quote:many, many will argue that ESB tops ANH and every other Star Wars flick, and that movie wasn't nominated for any important Oscars.

It probably would have been nominated for something, but this was about the same time that Lucas got fed up with the Academy and burned his Guild card. And I brought it up because of your contention that the older generation didn't get it when it first came out.

Quote:Also great performances from Sam Jackson, Ewan MacGregor, and Natalie Portman. Unlike many of the actors in the OT, the PT actors' careers didn't die when the series ended.

Harrison Ford's certainly didn't die, neither did Carrie Fisher's [although she never achieved the success Ford did]. Mark Hamill took his career to voice acting and has become one of the most prolific American voice actors ever.

Of the PT, McGregor and Portman have had good acting career's since, but Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christensen haven't done much [aside from a couple of bad movies for the later].

I still haven't seen any of the Star Wars movies. Not one.

Suck on that.

I don't know... the two trilogies don't at all mix. The OT feels gritty and more lifelike because it uses real sets and in my opinion the ship models look far, far, far better than the colorful CGI ships (at least in the Special Editions.) The Prequels are too colorful and whimsical... it doesn't fit flush with the OT.

A New Hope's entire story focused on this poetic and beautiful epic story of a poor farm boy, a princess, and a scoundrel waging a huge war against an evil Empire. It stands by itself... if there had never been another Star Wars, it would have been a masterpiece.

TESB has been critically acclaimed as one of the greatest movies of all time. I enjoy it's heavy atmosphere. To date, the TESB soundtrack is the most-listened to album in my collection.

ROTJ lost much of the good, quality elements of the previous two films.

TPM was a colorful film... I enjoyed it when I saw it, being a naif young 14 year-old at the time, (contemporaneously with my arrival at the Nintendo Sucks Page)... but the entire style is different... they original and the prequels couldn't be much different if one were in B&W and the other in Color. Everything is radically different. Nothing is as real or gritty as TOT. I literally recall cringing in the theater during RotS when they showed some of those horribly cheesy colorful planets...the one that comes to mind is when the female twi'lek jedi is gunned down by stormtroopers, and the planet is pathetically unrealistic... for you maybe this 'realism' isn't important (I know that OB1 and I had huge wars about this on TC at the time) but for me I do take some stock in it. I mean, doesn't the original Death Star feel so much more realistic than when Padme and Anakin are, say, fighting the stupid, fake insect aliens on that desert planet in AotC? Maybe its just me, but my brain can recognize a well-built set from a crazy drug-trip of a CGI background. And it doesn't help immerse me in the story, because I'm painfully aware that I'm watching actors in front of a green screen. But the Death Star, or Hoth--those are good sets. More conductive for suspension of disbelief.

And the dignity of Star Wars was trashed to pieces with such cringingly terrible things as Jar Jar, the comic book-esque diner alien whi supplies Obi Wan with info on Coruscant... the stupid waitress robot "you want some jawa juice?" does every single thing in real-life need a mirror version in Star Wars? The insect aliens were like
watching an expensive cartoon, not fitting for Star Wars.

And the stupidity of the battle droids? They're bumbling morons, they say "uh oh" when there's a speeding elevator coming at them; they suck... really dumb.

Also, what Lucas tried to do was unrealistic is telling SO MUCH story in three films:

ANH: Three people meet, blow up Death Star.
TESB: Rebels chased; plot development of major characters; meet Lando, Han captured.
ROTJ: Han freed, Empire defeated.

But in addition to advancing the main characters of the Prequels (Padme, Anakin, Obi Wan) Lucas really over-reached in trying to cram in this bulky, unwieldy huge political plot that may have been necessary, but wasn't handled well. AOTC goes from sappy and poorly scripted romance, to a huge battle, to senatorial procedures without much in the way of ease. ANH was focused and concentrated ON THE CHARACTERS; the Empire was almost a background. The Prequels tried to cram too much.

I love John Williams, but the Prequel music wasn't on-the-whole as memorable as his earlier work.

Also, I hate how they worked the Palpatine transition. One day he's portrayed as a kind, sweet old gentleman-senator... he slowly and visibly changes to something tacitly more sinister... AND THEN HE'S OVERNIGHT EVIL EMPEROR YELLOW-EYES-PALE-SKIN-BLACK-ROBES-EVIL--SAME-AS-WE-SEE-HIM-IN ROTJ---EVIL VOICE-EVIL EVIL-EMPEROR-EVIL. I think they should've left some of that progression to have taken place between the trilogies... that the senate would see him as such, in such an evil get-up, and cheer his dictatorship is stupid. Before the prequels, I remember hearing or reading from somewhere in the expanded canon universe that his transition was slow, and it was so much more believable and enjoyable than the over-night-evil-emperor-with-all-the-extras.

Also, if the Jedi have been the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy for thousands of years, why isn't there any public outcry or support when they're persecuted? They tried to explain it with a poorly conceived conspiracy by Palpatine about a rebellion in the jedi trying to take over the Republic, but if these are noble, dignified people who do good deeds for 10,000 years, don't you think they'd have a little public relations capital? It'd be like if Barack Obama killed all the state police in the country tomorrow, and said "yea they tried to overthrow the congress," and nobody in the country thinking anything about it.

Furthermore: Oh, yea, by the way, Yoda and Chewie? Yea, they're buds, they go way back. Didn't we mention that? Yea, it's a huge galaxy with billions of worlds and trillions and trillions of humanoid aliens, but somehow by coincidence, all of our 20 main characters know each other from before. And R2 and Darth Vader, yea they were old buddies too... and C3PO. And yes, R2D2 has ALWAYS had the ability to fly. It didn't come out much in the original trilogy, but... but... uh... yea. They go way back, they do. And why Vader has no reaction to seeing these two robots on Bespin? Well, we can just gloss over that with some "oh he had so much trauma, he's evil now, yadda yadda..."

Another point: Yoda tries ONCE to overthrow Palpatine, and very nearly pulls it off... but then, he says "eh fuck it. I'm retiring." Way to go, Yoda.

Having said all that, I didn't mind the acting, really... Ian McDiarmid remains one of my favorite lesser-known actors... Obi Wan was very well acted in my opinion... I love Natalie Portman... Liam Neeson was good, Samuel Jackson was good... though Christianson, as I'm sure we all agree, couldn't act his way out of a paper bag. I'm a huge fan of Christopher Lee, but I don't think he was really very convincing at any point in his portrayal.

The bottom line: I do enjoy watching them, and they are fun movies, but they're guilty pleasure ones, and not well made, and they could have been so much infinitely better. It's the lost potential for better prequels that angers me. They didn't have to be perfect, but there's so much eye-rolling stupidity in them that it sickens me.