18th January 2010, 12:50 AM
http://kotaku.com/5450647/japans-2ch-rep...complaints
So yeah, seems completely shallow interpretations of an entire nation's supply of games is a common problem. Hilarious though.
I especially like the notion that these games are "necessary for national stability".
Frankly there are some good points regarding the sheer amount of drek both countries can shove out the door.
I think it's funny that people look at BOTH sorts of RPGs and can say "there's no sublety". Yeah, I've seen that too. Especially in some recent "opus" grand games, like, yes, Dragon's Age. Making things "grittier" doesn't make it any more subtle. Also, I gotta say, American RPGs really do recycle elves dwarves and "generic middle ages" far too often. Ooh, Dragon Age, an AGE of those dragons! Haven't seen THAT before! All the art styles look like the illustrations of a Dungeon and Dragons manual, and all the landscapes go for the same boring grey and brown caves and forest paths. Heck, while we're at it, why can't they ever come up with something really compelling in terms of unique gameplay systems? While Japan is punching out one strange twist on RPG mechanics after another, all sorts of truly alien ways of viewing the whole thing, here in America it seems developers are stuck in this rut of "let's keep it D&D, only let's make it more actiony".
Yeah I think I've ragged on the cliches there long enough. There's some strengths there.
While the stories themselves are as cliched as ever, one thing I can say is American RPGs make conversation option meaningful far more often. There are exceptions, but Torment is an American game, not a Japanese one. Also, it's America that gives the full puzzle experience. Zelda (not really an RPG in the normal sense) seems to be the lone exception to the general rule that the only interaction you can do in most Japanese RPGs is talk, "check", and fight. Marrying RPG combat and some fun puzzling is a rare treat. Japanese RPGs too get into a rut when it comes to storytelling. Now sure, every RPG is someone's first, and for that person, the story Iv'e seen a hundred times will be fresh and engaging, one they will never forget. That's fine. I loved Final Fantasy 6 and Secret of Mana for the same reason. However, a rut is still a rut. The character "roster" in both cases is getting a little dated. I've seen several commercials for Mass Effect 2 at this point, and is it just me, or is Sheperd getting escorted around by a collection of sociopathic nut jobs? Every single one of them has basically the same personality according to these commercials, something to the effect of "I'm not fighting to save people, because I'm BAAAAD, I just like to kill things". It's redundant to the point where the cast is repeating itself. Japanese RPGs don't do that, they have "variety", but the cast is still cookie cutter in that I can pretty much predict exactly which one I'll be getting next. "I don't have an aloof intelligent character who detests idiots yet, so I bet I'll be getting one here in this forgotten super city", or "Hey I've got an excited plucky adventurer who will never give up, I bet his tomboyish female friend from childhood will probably end up bumping into me just as I leave and force her way into my group".
Western RPGs, "Gritty" does not automatically mean "deep and compelling". Sometimes gritty just makes it over the top and makes me laugh. How tortured a backstory does someone have to have before you shatter my ability to suspend disbelief? Japanese RPGs, it's not really "weird" to have that strange animal person that's way too curious about the main character when EVERY game has one.
I'll be honest, here's something I want to see die at this point. Stop shoving "RPG elements" into all my action genres. I mean, there's even an FPS where you level up now! Now what I basically mean is, it's time that leveling up died. Zelda SHOULD have set the standard for how powerups were done for the past 20 years. Instead we have "trees" and "leveling" and "skill training" and all this other stuff that, at it's core, just isn't fun. I honestly don't get why, for example, Kingdom Hearts and Castlevania have character levels. Can't they do those games without that entirely? Metroid shows you can do modern Castlevania without it, and all those other action games show that Kingdom Hearts could live without it.
But that's not all. "Skill orbs" in modern action games need to go. "Buying" upgrades by just murdering over and over again is boring. How about having out of the way paths and areas where powerups are hidden? Now THAT'S fun. Always has been, always will be, and frankly, it engages me a lot more than sitting around in Beast's Castle killing Nobodies in a room-by-room loop I developed JUST to perfect Master Form. Stupid Jimminy's Journal hidden ending... Of course this started with Devil May Cry, so killing it would have to start there too to really take hold. Again, there's nothing here that couldn't be done in a more compelling way as hidden powerups to find in secret areas or through special tasks or puzzles.
About the only grind even Zelda has yet to escape is money, and for that I'd point to adventure games, that is, puzzle adventure games. They do just fine without a currency system. Simply put, if something needs to be bought, just provide a big sack of generic currency that happens to cover exactly the cost of that item and no more, but generally there's always SOME fun task you can do for a character to get something you want from them.
As much as anyone else, reading "and it's even got some RPG elements!" caught my attention back when it was new, but it isn't any more, and really, the only RPG elements most game companies bother copying is the annoying grind part. Character growth I like. That's fun, but getting it just from doing the same thing over and over? Not so much.
I think maybe if a game had the fun method of growth and depth of puzzles one finds in Zelda or Metroid coupled with vast world to freely explore and character interaction of American RPGs, we'd get one of the greatest games ever made.
So yeah, seems completely shallow interpretations of an entire nation's supply of games is a common problem. Hilarious though.
I especially like the notion that these games are "necessary for national stability".
Frankly there are some good points regarding the sheer amount of drek both countries can shove out the door.
I think it's funny that people look at BOTH sorts of RPGs and can say "there's no sublety". Yeah, I've seen that too. Especially in some recent "opus" grand games, like, yes, Dragon's Age. Making things "grittier" doesn't make it any more subtle. Also, I gotta say, American RPGs really do recycle elves dwarves and "generic middle ages" far too often. Ooh, Dragon Age, an AGE of those dragons! Haven't seen THAT before! All the art styles look like the illustrations of a Dungeon and Dragons manual, and all the landscapes go for the same boring grey and brown caves and forest paths. Heck, while we're at it, why can't they ever come up with something really compelling in terms of unique gameplay systems? While Japan is punching out one strange twist on RPG mechanics after another, all sorts of truly alien ways of viewing the whole thing, here in America it seems developers are stuck in this rut of "let's keep it D&D, only let's make it more actiony".
Yeah I think I've ragged on the cliches there long enough. There's some strengths there.
While the stories themselves are as cliched as ever, one thing I can say is American RPGs make conversation option meaningful far more often. There are exceptions, but Torment is an American game, not a Japanese one. Also, it's America that gives the full puzzle experience. Zelda (not really an RPG in the normal sense) seems to be the lone exception to the general rule that the only interaction you can do in most Japanese RPGs is talk, "check", and fight. Marrying RPG combat and some fun puzzling is a rare treat. Japanese RPGs too get into a rut when it comes to storytelling. Now sure, every RPG is someone's first, and for that person, the story Iv'e seen a hundred times will be fresh and engaging, one they will never forget. That's fine. I loved Final Fantasy 6 and Secret of Mana for the same reason. However, a rut is still a rut. The character "roster" in both cases is getting a little dated. I've seen several commercials for Mass Effect 2 at this point, and is it just me, or is Sheperd getting escorted around by a collection of sociopathic nut jobs? Every single one of them has basically the same personality according to these commercials, something to the effect of "I'm not fighting to save people, because I'm BAAAAD, I just like to kill things". It's redundant to the point where the cast is repeating itself. Japanese RPGs don't do that, they have "variety", but the cast is still cookie cutter in that I can pretty much predict exactly which one I'll be getting next. "I don't have an aloof intelligent character who detests idiots yet, so I bet I'll be getting one here in this forgotten super city", or "Hey I've got an excited plucky adventurer who will never give up, I bet his tomboyish female friend from childhood will probably end up bumping into me just as I leave and force her way into my group".
Western RPGs, "Gritty" does not automatically mean "deep and compelling". Sometimes gritty just makes it over the top and makes me laugh. How tortured a backstory does someone have to have before you shatter my ability to suspend disbelief? Japanese RPGs, it's not really "weird" to have that strange animal person that's way too curious about the main character when EVERY game has one.
I'll be honest, here's something I want to see die at this point. Stop shoving "RPG elements" into all my action genres. I mean, there's even an FPS where you level up now! Now what I basically mean is, it's time that leveling up died. Zelda SHOULD have set the standard for how powerups were done for the past 20 years. Instead we have "trees" and "leveling" and "skill training" and all this other stuff that, at it's core, just isn't fun. I honestly don't get why, for example, Kingdom Hearts and Castlevania have character levels. Can't they do those games without that entirely? Metroid shows you can do modern Castlevania without it, and all those other action games show that Kingdom Hearts could live without it.
But that's not all. "Skill orbs" in modern action games need to go. "Buying" upgrades by just murdering over and over again is boring. How about having out of the way paths and areas where powerups are hidden? Now THAT'S fun. Always has been, always will be, and frankly, it engages me a lot more than sitting around in Beast's Castle killing Nobodies in a room-by-room loop I developed JUST to perfect Master Form. Stupid Jimminy's Journal hidden ending... Of course this started with Devil May Cry, so killing it would have to start there too to really take hold. Again, there's nothing here that couldn't be done in a more compelling way as hidden powerups to find in secret areas or through special tasks or puzzles.
About the only grind even Zelda has yet to escape is money, and for that I'd point to adventure games, that is, puzzle adventure games. They do just fine without a currency system. Simply put, if something needs to be bought, just provide a big sack of generic currency that happens to cover exactly the cost of that item and no more, but generally there's always SOME fun task you can do for a character to get something you want from them.
As much as anyone else, reading "and it's even got some RPG elements!" caught my attention back when it was new, but it isn't any more, and really, the only RPG elements most game companies bother copying is the annoying grind part. Character growth I like. That's fun, but getting it just from doing the same thing over and over? Not so much.
I think maybe if a game had the fun method of growth and depth of puzzles one finds in Zelda or Metroid coupled with vast world to freely explore and character interaction of American RPGs, we'd get one of the greatest games ever made.