Tendo City

It's coming! Looks very nice...

http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/games/...4&p=1&of=0

Awesome. Mind you, I get the impression the Miyamoto face skin will be removed... :(

I imagine that the game will have zero slowdown issues, the only real problem the original version had. I'm sure the glitches will be solved as well. All I really want to hear now is that it will have online matchmaking support. That added feature was destined for the game from the beginning.

...I'm going to have to beat all those ridiculously hard challenges all over again... aren't I?

Yeah, you will. :(

... I never beat them all either, even on the easiest difficulty. Some of the later ones are just too hard. But yeah, PD with an always-solid framerate... amazing idea. As is the game is one of the best console FPSes ever, and that'd just make it even better... because yeah, that sometimes bad framerate was the game's one downside, for sure.

Didn't they want to give this treatment to Goldeneye? I remember seeing incredible updated screenshots of the first level (I can't remember the name), but disagreements between Nintendo and Microsoft prevented it from becoming a reality. Why can they do this for PD and not GE?

Quote:As is the game is one of the best console FPSes ever, and that'd just make it even better... because yeah, that sometimes bad framerate was the game's one downside, for sure.

It may be its only downside, but it definitely was a major downside and at times a huge distraction. There are few others games where I would tolerate something like that.

Sacred Jellybean Wrote:Didn't they want to give this treatment to Goldeneye? I remember seeing incredible updated screenshots of the first level (I can't remember the name), but disagreements between Nintendo and Microsoft prevented it from becoming a reality. Why can they do this for PD and not GE?

Well, because the people who own the James Bond liscense own more of Goldeneye than either Rare or MS does. They'd need to get permission from them.

That's fine though. I've played far more Perfect Dark than Goldeneye. Goldeneye is a great game, but PD improved on absolutely everything forever.

On another note, the controls are going to be much tighter with two analog sticks instead of using a stick to aim and c buttons to move.

Sacred Jellybean Wrote:Didn't they want to give this treatment to Goldeneye? I remember seeing incredible updated screenshots of the first level (I can't remember the name), but disagreements between Nintendo and Microsoft prevented it from becoming a reality. Why can they do this for PD and not GE?

Nintendo killed it. They have some rights on the game evidently, and while NOA was interested, NCL absolutely refused to allow the deal (that would have allowed Goldeneye remake on XBLA and Goldeneye N64 on VC).

That's the story I've heard, anyway. It seems to likely be accurate.

Oh well, at least they're releasing the better game now anyway. :)

(I played a little of Goldeneye a few months ago... PD is so much better in just about every way. I couldn't stand it for long before I went back to PD.)

As for PD's framerate, I know I said it was the one problem, but I don't think it's a huge one, really. I mean yeah, the framerate is bad sometimes. That's true in many of the N64 games that really push the system's hardware. I'm pretty used to it. Oh, sometimes it's annoying, but not always... it depends on how low the framerate is and how stable it is -- a lower but stable framerate is less distracting than a higher one that keeps jumping up and down. PD... how bad it is depends on the mode, really. But even in 3 or 4 player mode with several bots I have no problem.

I find a lower stable frame rate less distracting than one that jumps myself, mainly because the jumping is what calls attention to it.

Dark Jaguar Wrote:I find a lower stable frame rate less distracting than one that jumps myself, mainly because the jumping is what calls attention to it.

Yeah, I definitely agree, as I said. Some people seem to absolutely hate both, though. If either of those seriously bother you, though, the N64 is probably not the right console for you... :)

On N64 games with poor framerates is is much more frequently a low but stable framerate than one that jumps around, but some of the latter can be seen too... I remember the framerate drops bothering me in Banjo-Tooie and Conker, for instance, for some reason, while PD's framerate, which definitely goes lower than it is in those games and for much longer, never bothered me as much... perhaps because it was generally more stable, even if it were low. I'm not sure. Maybe it was just because of how good the game was? I mean, you can get used to a pretty low framerate eventually... look at those Super FX games on SNES, for example. Nothing on N64 is consistently that low. :)

Actually you said exactly the opposite. I guess it was a typo?

I rarely am ever bothered by low frame rates. They really have to get somewhere around 10 FPS or lower before it starts to bother me, and part of that may be from my experience with Star Fox on the SNES and Stunts on the PC, specifically the PC we had at the time :D.

Yeah, I meant less distracting, not more. Oops...

Quote:I rarely am ever bothered by low frame rates. They really have to get somewhere around 10 FPS or lower before it starts to bother me, and part of that may be from my experience with Star Fox on the SNES and Stunts on the PC, specifically the PC we had at the time .

SNES framerates are a bit too low for me. Low N64 framerates (generally mid teens) are fine, but get into the single digits and I don't like it much... though in the case of a slow-paced game like Aidyn or something, it plays just fine at whatever very low framerate it's at in hi-res mode. But that Wipeout XL demo on the old PC we had at the time in 1997 that got single-digit framerates... that was unplayable. Star Fox, Vortex, and Stunt Race FX on SNES really are too slow... I mean, I can play them, but the crawling framerate is very hard to get used to. They're MUCH more fun in emulation, where the framerates are higher. We may have had PCs through the '90s, but I didn't play 3d games that got single-digit framerates much at all, so I didn't get used to it like you did... it was N64 framerates that I got used to, and those are a little higher.

Oh, I don't mind SNES Doom's framerate, though. It's a bit higher than those games I think, and I think that game plays just fine on SNES (even faster emulated, but it's just fine on the actual system). So it varies from game to game.

I must, must find a N64 adapter for 360 so I can use the N64 controller. The face buttons on the 360's can be used as the C-buttons but it's not as tight. Using the dual anal is fine for the one player game but for multiplayer you need the precision of the digital movement. This is especially true in all-explosives combat. If I imagine the momentum generated by a full run forward and then performing a Z defense from rockets or grenade launchers the anal movement is going to be too slow. I had this same issue in PDZ where the game felt muddled in movement and closer to the speed of Halo.

With experienced players and perfectsims the DM gets so fast you cant even blink. I prefer that speed and sense of control over the trudging, mechanized and clunky feel of most console FPS.

But yes, happiness ;D

1.) The first thing I will do is turn off most of my HUD and disable the head bob. I hope these options are intact.

2.) Rumors of every Goldeneye multiplayer and singleplayer level as a DM arena. This would be very, very nice. Cradle with snipers (using a gameshark) was a lot of fun. More PD levels, too, please. The first level (the dD building) would be incredible for multiplayer.

3.) Furniture/enemies can be thrown out of windows, do it Rare.

4.) God damn face mapping. Look, the programing is there on your hard drives somewhere. Use the 360 camera, make it happen. Also, fully customizable players so I could make a bond clone. The idea of the face mapping was so ahead of its time that it hasn't (STILL) been done. I could play as a Pepsi can or a report on sales of larger sized condoms in Japan, a ferret, dicks, Uniboob the Titclops and obviously any inappropriate characters can be kicked from PD servers but be used in immature glee during local play. Imagine the high rez capabilities: Your character's face could be a screen shot of any meme, or even your favorite gun or a hallway from PD's levels. ah... bliss

5.) FIX THE TIME IT TAKES TO DIE DURING COMBATBOOST OR SLOW/SMART MOTION GAMES. PLZ. Simple fix: When you are killed, you vanish while still falling so it's the normal time it takes to die (and to recieve your rez count) but the animation just doesnt finish through.

6.) Keep the ability to close your eyes by ducking 3 times. Also, keep the abilty to improve your accuracy by ducking even when using fully automatic weapons BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD take away the sims ability to pinpoint shotguns in to a single cluster from any distance (related: sims reload and firing times. Fix em. No one can use a magnum that fast... no one).

7.) Unleash the levels and weapons, gadgets, etc that were all planned for PD but not used. Even if just for fun, as this will be the definitive Perfect Dark and missing pieces is just stupid. (i'm tired of suitcases and necklaces that do nothing!)

8.) Skedar in multiplayer. Faster than Mr. Blond but he's bigger too, so... and since they can hold any weapon and act exactly like any other generic human it just makes sense also Skedar King should be a new game type called Terminated Salvations. You start a game, with the Skedar King roaming the level, everyone has one life. The Skedar King terminates each player one by one and is pretty much invincible. Whoever is killed last wins however: The longer you survive the more points you generate. So imagine a 15 player game. One player killed 5 giving him 50 points (lets say) but the last survivor of the match only has 10. Well, the longer he lives the more points he gets. So if he survives a minute with the King after him he can generate more than 50 making him the overall winner. During the last-man portion of the match, the other players can watch and place bets (using their points) as to how much longer he or she has to live.

9.) 4 (or more) co-op or counter-op.

I will think of more later.

If you want full speed, just tilt the control stick all the way. You can also adjust sensitivity so just a small tap goes full speed. Not sure how digital buttons are more accurate to be honest...

I hope they add in a timer to count down before respawns. It's a failing of capture the flag if the entire base is instantly coming back to life as you kill them. If people have to wait 5 or 10 seconds before they can come back to life (adjustable) then there's actually an ability to clear out a base.

Quote:If you want full speed, just tilt the control stick all the way. You can also adjust sensitivity so just a small tap goes full speed. Not sure how digital buttons are more accurate to be honest...

... Seriously? You can't understand how digital buttons are more accurate than analog sticks? Really? That's pretty hard to believe... but if you really need some proof, go play a shmup with a d-pad, then attempt to play one (that actually allows it) with an analog stick. It's ... slightly more difficult ... with an analog stick, to say the least, because of how much easier precision is with digital controls. That's why controllers like the Gamecube had d-pads on them, because developers demanded it for the precise controls that some games need.

Nintendo does have more easily aimed analog sticks than most, thanks to their octagonal gates (instead of the round ones the other major console manufacturers use), but even they aren't as accurate as digital. And the 360 isn't from Nintendo. :)

Anyway, I definitely prefer moving with buttons, yes. That's one of my biggest problem with dual-stick shooter designs... I want movement on buttons, darnit! PC FPS controls are better. :) (Yes, yes, I'm sure you can eventually get used to dual-stick shooter controls. I'm not.)

But you're in a 3d world. Wouldn't you much prefer being able to move with much finer precision instead of just 8 absolute directions and absolute speeds? I can imagine a lot of accidental deaths due to not being able to cross that board at the right angle.

Huh? Use the mouse or analog stick to point your view in the correct direction. Then use forward to move forward along it. How is that hard?

Remember, right and left are strafe left and strafe right, not rotate view left and right. You do that with the mouse/stick. And you wouldn't be strafing on a narrow board. :)

Just use the run/walk toggle (Shift usually) to go slower, for more careful movement on narrow platforms.

... Plus, most FPSes don't exactly have many jumping puzzles... and when they do, the first-person perspective is more often the problem than anything else (This can be solved with a third-person camera option, often, or just careful design... but it is always an issue). What FPS controls do need, though, is precise movement around the environment (forward/back/strafe), and that is definitely easier with buttons than a stick. For looking, the same goes for mouse v. stick, there is absolutely no comparison.

How is 8 absolute directions more precise than omnidirectional input via a stick? I'm not sure I see that.

Plus, having to move at a snail's pace is a problem for me if I want to strafe kinda diagonally across a dangerous part while simultaneously shooting at a helicopter or something. I just prefer having full control over speed and direction across a full range if I'm playing a 3D game. Direction pads are for 2D games.

Quote:Keep the ability to close your eyes by ducking 3 times.

I never understood the point of this (until now, I just thought it was a bug). Is it just supposed to be a fun little quirk?

I'd have to agree with lazy/ABF on the debate of whether movement is better on an analog stick or a d-pad. For me, though, it just comes down to preference. Obviously an analog stick is more precise than a d-pad, but I prefer the d-pad's simplicity and speed. There's little need I can see to walk in an angle between a diagonal direction and a perpendicular direction (yeah, I know, the diagonals are perpendicular too, but you know what I mean).

Needing to use a toggle for walking/running does kinda suck, though, I'll concede that.

Quote:How is 8 absolute directions more precise than omnidirectional input via a stick? I'm not sure I see that.

... Um, because it'll actually stay in the direction you put the stick in with no effort, in that point of the 8-pointed gate, instead or you having to carefully try to keep the stick exactly in place? I thought that was pretty obvious...

Really, as I've said before, in my opinion, the only possible advantage of a round gate is for a game like NiGHTS, which relies heavily on making curving motions. For pretty much anything else, Nintendo's style is a lot better. It makes precision with an analog stick a LOT easier than it is with a circular design, and that's good.

Dark Jaguar Wrote:Plus, having to move at a snail's pace is a problem for me if I want to strafe kinda diagonally across a dangerous part while simultaneously shooting at a helicopter or something. I just prefer having full control over speed and direction across a full range if I'm playing a 3D game. Direction pads are for 2D games.

You're just not making any sense at all here.

First, movement speed has nothing to do with it, so I don't know where that comes from. Push the stick partway and you crawl, mid and you walk all the way and you run. Push the button and you walk (or run, it varies), press shift with it and you run (or walk, if you have autorun on, as is common), push something else to crouch and you'll then move slowly. Movement speed options are the same, you just don't get the gradients in between with buttons -- but those aren't important anyway, so it doesn't matter.

As for moving diagonally while shooting, well, that's exactly why PC FPS controls are so much better! Your control with a mouse over where you are pointing is so many times better than with any kind of analog stick that it's not even fair... at an equivalent skill level, someone playing an FPS on a PC would crush someone playing on a console almost every time. This isn't a debatable point, or a matter of opinion. It's a proven fact.

Now, of course, this is mostly because of how much better a mouse is than an analog stick for aiming, not because buttons are better than a stick for moving, so that doesn't conclusively answer the question just on the movement side. If we just look at N64/DC vs. systems with dual-stick controls, it'd be a much less clear picture (unless you're using the DC mouse and keyboard, that is... :)). But I do think the advantages of precise digital movement would prove important.

Quote: if I want to strafe kinda diagonally across a dangerous part while simultaneously shooting at a helicopter or something.

That would be a whole heck of a lot easier with a mouse to precisely aim and position yourself with, and with digital buttons to then be sure that you stay at the proper angle... with an analog stick you have to constantly worry about keeping it in the exact right position, and that's never easy (hence the 'it is less precise' issue). No, I definitely don't think that scenario would be easier with two sticks. :)

Sacred Jellybean Wrote:I'd have to agree with lazy/ABF on the debate of whether movement is better on an analog stick or a d-pad. For me, though, it just comes down to preference. Obviously an analog stick is more precise than a d-pad, but I prefer the d-pad's simplicity and speed. There's little need I can see to walk in an angle between a diagonal direction and a perpendicular direction (yeah, I know, the diagonals are perpendicular too, but you know what I mean).

Yeah... just change your view, point yourself in the direction you want to go now, and go there. FPSes do not require you to do complex jumping puzzles while NOT facing in the direction you are jumping... even jumping-heavy FPSes like Jedi Knight don't do that. :) If you need to move 'in the direction between two of the points' (of the 8 directions possible with standard buttons), just turn a bit with the mouse to angle in the needed direction.

As I said, it's not like you use the keyboard for angling anyway! It's just forward, backwards, and strafe. You can't turn your viewpoint with the movement controls, only with the mouse (or stick). So as long as you've used the look stick/mouse properly, you'll never need more than eight directions of movement.

As for having to use a run/walk toggle of some kind, it's a slight hassle, but oh well, you get used to it quickly.

Walk/run isn't even available in PD if you use the C-Buttons for movement. You *always* run and its impossible to quickly defeat teams of perfect and darksims without using the C-Buttons. The stick is just too slow. Diagonal movement has been an important factor in any FPS. Movement increases slightly so your speed is just a tad better and using the stick for performing the diagonal run is just stupid. You can actually hear it if you listen to Jo's footsteps but for fun play a two player match with the same char, have a starting point and have one char move in diagonal while the other runs. Guess who's faster? For the same benefit of testing, have one char on stick and one on buttons, guess who's faster again (this might be improved in the 360 version)? The buttons are just better for precision in PD - where speed always wins the game. You're running on a 2-D plane, you're not flying or trying to avoid walls. In fact in PD you need the walls and doors to instantly stop/gain momentum for world record times.

I got pretty good at bullet dodging. As far as I know I invented it but if you wanna try it run at your target (in diagonals) keeping the aim. When you hear the shot (you will hear it before you see the muzzle flash) press and hold the R button and tap whichever direction on the C-Buttons you were already holding. Your char will 'float' with momentum forward while moving at insane speed to the left or right briefly. This confuses the hell out of the person trying to hit you. It gives you a split second edge especially with darksims. I successfully avoided pistol shots and a millisecond or two of automatic fire which is huge when you consider that a darksim can kill you faster than it takes for the animation of your life gauge to deplete. It's slightly faster than an eye blink but with practice you'll perform them without even thinking.

If you want ultimate matrix funs you can assign slow-motion to the R button (gameshark) so you enter slomo whenever you aim. Now just run at someone (or fall) and press R with sidesteps to dodge bullets, let go of R and unload on them. People just stare in awe that they cant hit you. But remember that 'aiming' kills your momentum in the air, GS or not.... god I have no life.

Mr. Bean the closing of the eyes is for multiplayer battles where you've removed the radar. You can go camp and close your eyes so that the other player has no idea where you are and all they see is a black screen. Excellent for ambushes or if you're waiting for a particular item spawn and dont wanna get caught.

I wasn't talking about the specific type of "gate" or whatever ABF, just stick vs button. I thought that's what you were talking about. I just don't even care about those gap things or whatever. I happen to have the ability to hold the stick in a direction myself, using basic motor control.

I'm also not talking about a mouse at all. Don't bring that up here as I'm not debating a mouse (for the record, of course I think it's more accurate, but before you say it's a proven fact, link the studies). I'm talking purely c buttons and a stick vs two sticks. I, personally, find using two sticks far more accurate due to the gradiance. If I tilt my stick so I'm aiming a different way just so I can move the right way at some narrow passage, I'm not aiming at that guy's head any more. I need to aim at the enemy while moving in a very specific angle sometimes, and that's just easier with a stick. Let's just say my sort of skill is abusing the environment as much as possible. If I need to jump on some outcropping and strafe along it while popping bullets between a gate, I do that. That's how I beat my hard modes, through abusing weaknesses in baddie AI. There's sure no other way I'm going to manage. Call it psuedo-skill, or Narutoing up a solution. I can't aim, so I do other things to make up for my massive shortcomings, and part of that requires the gradiance to move north by northwest instead of pure northwest. That's all I'm saying.

lazy so the C buttons actually let you move faster than a full tilt on the control stick? I suppose that's possible considering all the various glitches that PD has, such as diagonally running being faster that either strafing or running forward or backwards. That's something that can easily be fixed though. I'm sure they'll make it so a full tilt is just as fast as a c button, no worries.

How does anyone have the gall to say they've set a world record anyway? There's loads of people who have no idea about that message board you go to, and because someone hasn't found some obscure message board and posted a time on it, you decide to claim "world record" on it? A message board with 20 people is not the world by any stretch.

1.) You dont seem to understand the basic of principal of always running is better than increments of tip-toeing to running and the milliseconds you lose

2.) You should check out the-elite.net/pd/elite (recording world records since rare.net days)

3.) All FPS games allow you to move faster in diagonals, it's not a glitch it's a design. In real life combat training you may notice that strafing with leg over leg in a diagonal move poises you in a faster stance while maintaining a steadier hand (shooting while running is virtually impossible, but walking leg over leg in diagonal keeps your speed up and your torso steady), it's most notable by SWAT. In PD you can duck once to crouch down but not all the way down, in that stance with diagonals you are performing the exact move taught in military around the world