This certainly is a historic moment. Troops and Iraqis joined together to topple the statue of Saddam. The Iraqis would never do that unless they knew for fact that they were free from Saddam's regime. But should we really be celebrating now? In my opinion, it's not over, but today certainly was a big turning point in the war. And what of Saddam? Is he dead? I wouldn't be too sure, but even if he's alive, he's pretty much a squirrel now. All we have to do is find him and gun him down. So, what do you people think? Post your thoughts here.
Well, Iraq is out of the way. Now then, new question for debate!
Is or is not the Banana Republic a threat to the US? I submit that it is!
It seems we're heading into Saddam's hometown of Tikrit next. It's a high possibility that if Saddam is alive, he's hiding out at Tikrit. Also, many of his loyalists live there and still support him and oppose American troops. In my opinion, Tikrit should definitely be our next target. The Banana Republic can wait. ;)
Well, it does look like its almost over... while it was harder than expected (denying that would be so dumb, after how much everyone up to the White House said it'd be so much easier than it was before the war started...), but it was easy... as expected. Given the low quality of Iraq's army I'm hardly surprised... the only ... interesting ... things are how that Iraq fired NO Scuds and used NO chemical or biological weapons... hmm, I'd think that once the war starts they would have taken them out to try to do as well as they could...
Oh, and it'd be nice if we get closure on Sadaam. It would be good if he doesn't get away like Bin Laden did...
Oh, and who's next on the hit list? Syria? Lybia? Iran? Zimbabwe? Burma/Myanmar? China? Saudi Arabia?
France? We could make them eat Freedom Fries too... :p
We definitely need to focus on North Korea next. They're nuke program and that shithead Kim Jong II can't be ignored. On the other hand, I half believe that pretty soon we'll be finding alligations of WMD in Syria or Iran.;)
No more Incursions into Arab states for now , Anymore and the majority of Arabs nations could declare war on you causing mass death , dont forget Bin ladin is still alive.
Right Now you must prove that the U.S isnt trying to conquere the middle east as many think you do.
Iran has changed alot since 9/11 their government wouldnt let any Iranian aid Saddam Hussein by crossing the border into Iraq, also Iran has cooperated with fighting Terrorism. Majority of Iranians love America .
What needs to be done is establish a new Elected goverment in Iraq , Provide food and services to the Iraqi people and expel all extremist and Baath party members.
remove land mines and coast underwater mines with the dolphins with the lazerson their heads
I should have also mentioned China and North Korea too... and probably Yemen, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, and Pakistan too... I mean, when you start clearing out dictatorships, why stop now? Why not just take them all out? World public opinion and what will happen in the future don't matter, that's for sure...
North Korea has a very advanced nuclear weapons program and probably has several nukes. And they are one of the most brutal and repressive regimes in the world.
Iran has almost certainly started a nuclear weapons program recently (they don't need those nuclear fuel plants they are making for the reactors they have when the reactors don't use that kind of fuel and Russia has promised to give them all the fuel they will use...). And the Islamist hardliners who run the nation support terrorists.
China is one of the world's top human rights abusers and supports North Korea. Look how just yesterday they vetoed a UN Security Council resolution that would have condemned North Korea...
Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria all harbor Palestinian terrorists. Most of those nations also have (unnoficial) support for other terrorist groups such as Bin Laden. Note how most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi, and Saudi princes help fund Al Quaida. Syria is also a major terrorism sponsor.
Myanmar? Its rulers are isolationist repressors who keep the population down and don't allow dissent.
Lybia? Less terror sponsorship there now than before, but probably still some...
Pakistan too isn't exactly great with human rights. Note how it is a military dictatorship that won't let its people decide who they want to be ruled by.
And as for Zimbabwe, its ruler is repressive, persecutes the white minority and takes their land from them, and has ruined the economy and some of the agricultural production of the nation...
Pakistan has cooperated very well in fighting Al'qeada after all it was them who captured Muhhamud Q'taf (bin ladin right hand man)
I would love to see north Korea Liberated but i think peace may win as Kim is very low on resources namely food.
Of course Pakistan has cooperated! Its ruler is pro US... a pro US dictator, like so many others over the years. Where the US supports his decision not to allow elections because they know the other side (in this case, more radical Islamists) would win...
As for North Korea, they've been starving their people for many years so the lack of food won't stop that maniac (I doubt that Kim is completely sane...) from not agreeing with us now... not unless he gets something he wants, and I very much doubt we'll give much... but then again we REALLY do not want a war there (even THIS awful White House knows THAT), so I don't know...
I don't think we should even look at Kora unless the UN gets off it's lazy ass and volunteers to help us. We don't need their help, nor do we need their permission, but I think their support is helpful.
Don't worry, China and Japan would not let N. Korea do anything with those nukes.
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
I should have also mentioned China and North Korea too... and probably Yemen, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, and Pakistan too... I mean, when you start clearing out dictatorships, why stop now? Why not just take them all out?
Hmm...that might be something that should be looked into...
That is very funny.. :D
Oh, and I don't know about China and Japan... Japan doesn't have nuclear weapons or a big army, and China half the time seems to be on North Korea's side...
Quote:. Look how just yesterday they vetoed a UN Security Council resolution that would have condemned North Korea...
Japan doesn't have nuclear weapons or a big army, and China half the time seems to be on North Korea's side...
Seems to me that Japan cannot have any large military, whether it be army or navy, par our Versailles-like treaty after WWII. As for China, THEY'RE the ones I'm afraid of...them and Korea. I don't trust either of them, and maybe...JUST MAYBE...they're in cahoots.
Quote:Seems to me that Japan cannot have any large military, whether it be army or navy, par our Versailles-like treaty after WWII.
No, its not in the treaty. Its in their constitution... if you don't remember, we wrote it for them (after WWII, some US military personnel wrote a new Japanese constitution...) and included the 'no offensive troops' thing in it.
I say we Liberate thee Irish!
Japan isn't really some evil dictatorship though. Not sure why they got grouped with China... Besides, bombing them is likely to destroy all our favorite game makers!
Um, because Japan, China, and South Korea are North Korea's major neighbors?
And movie makers. I also hope that North Korea leaves South Korea alone. I love their movies. Hong Kong is my favorite out of the three, though.
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
China is one of the world's top human rights abusers and supports North Korea. Look how just yesterday they vetoed a UN Security Council resolution that would have condemned North Korea...
Maybe the veto had somthing to do with the whole, "we have no problem with a western nation having weapons of mass destruction but if anyone else has them it's bad"
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
No, its not in the treaty. Its in their constitution... if you don't remember, we wrote it for them (after WWII, some US military personnel wrote a new Japanese constitution...) and included the 'no offensive troops' thing in it.
Germany had to ammend their consitution so that they could send peace-keepers to other countries
The Canadian government has told all Canadian ships in the persian gulf that they are not to and any Iraqi's they may caputer over to the Americans and they specificly said even Saddam.
Hopefully the U.S will forgive us and let us play a part in rebuilding Iraq.
Well, I certainly agree that if we invade anyone else anytime soon, it should be North Korea. From the sounds of it, they're an even bigger threat than Iraq was. Of course, Iraq really wasn't much of a threat at all, was it? The only problem with invading North Korea, though, is China. If we do take on North Korea, we better keep a close watch on China. I don't trust them either. They're probably crazy enough to start World War III with nuclear weapons. :S
Quote: Maybe the veto had somthing to do with the whole, "we have no problem with a western nation having weapons of mass destruction but if anyone else has them it's bad"
And maybe that has something to do with the whole "totalitarianism, genocide, and evil dictators are almost exclusively a problem for Eastern nations".
The Canadian government has told all Canadian ships in the persian gulf that they are not to and any Iraqi's they may caputer over to the Americans and they specificly said even Saddam.
Them's fighting words. You go tell that to all the cheering Iraqis in Dearborn, Michigan...they're right over the border from you.
Quote:And maybe that has something to do with the whole "totalitarianism, genocide, and evil dictators are almost exclusively a problem for Eastern nations".
Not true. Or have you never heard of "Latin America" or "Africa"?
There ARE dictator-assholes everywhere, but the ones who pose the biggest threat to us have been in the Middle East...it wasn't a Latino who plunged two planes into the WTC, it was an Arab. If you don't think that justifies a heavy hand there, then you're hiding from the obvious.
Most dictators do indeed live in the Middle East, but there is in fact one dictator in the western hemisphere who lives 90 miles off the coast of Florida. Of course, he isn't much of a threat anymore, is he? :p
No, Castro is most certainly not a threat anymore...
And Africa has lots of dictators or strongmen...
Also, some most of the Middle Eastern dictatorships are on our side, at least publicly... privately it could be different, of course. Most probably do agree with their people in that they should hate the US... not all (not Qatar or Kuwait), but the Saudis? I wouldn't be surprised...
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Not true. Or have you never heard of "Latin America" or "Africa"?
Of course. But there is no dictatorship in this hemisphere that poses a serious threat to anyone, and few that have done anything grevious to their people in quite some time. The worst we have to offer is the turmoil in Columbia and Venezuela, but in comparison to some of the shit that goes on in the East, what with militant Islamists and the like, that's as tame as a newborn puppy.
Also, hate to break it to you, professor, but most of Africa is in the eastern hemisphere, and certainly has more ties to the east than the West. To say nothing of the place being barely industrialized.
Simple fact of the matter is that Western civilization is more advanced, more powerful, richer, and more civilized by far than the East. We have the power to make as many armageddon-inducing weapons as we want, but we also have the foresight and morality not to use them except in the most extreme of cases. Can you say that many Eastern nations possess that? Not unless you think lying is fun.
If there were no WMDs anywhere, that'd be great. But if anyone has to have them, I feel a hundred times safer with the possessors being us. Because when you get right down to it, when's the last time we hijacked commercial airliners and plowed them into giant skyscrapers in the middle of one of the most densly populated cities in the world, for the express purpose of the mass murder of innocent civilians, with no reason or provocation except lies told to us by an insane fundamentalist warping and perverting the teachings he claims to hold dear just to get us to do the dirty work?
I rest my case.
I would say that what's going on in Columbia is far, far worse than in most Middle Eastern nations at this point... though its not related to dictators. As for Venezuela, that is essentially a dictator, but its only really affecting that nation...
And how exactly is most of Africa in the Eastern Hemisphere? Where do you draw the line? Because Europe is in the Western Hemisphere and Africa is directly south of Europe, mostly...
Oh, and I was just saying that there are lots of dictators out of the Middle East and in the Middle East, in general the dictators aren't the problem...
Quote: Can you say that many Eastern nations possess that? Not unless you think lying is fun.
Most Middle Eastern nations do not have those weapons so it is not a real issue. The only one that does is Pakistan, and I really don't think that they will ever use nukes first... though the situation with them and India is bad, I doubt that either one is stupid enough to want nuclear war...
So no, I don't think that there is some huge moral difference there. Except for the extremists, who in most cases do NOT run the governments...
Quote: when's the last time we hijacked commercial airliners and plowed them into giant skyscrapers in the middle of one of the most densly populated cities in the world, for the express purpose of the mass murder of innocent civilians, with no reason or provocation except lies told to us by an insane fundamentalist warping and perverting the teachings he claims to hold dear just to get us to do the dirty work?
Oh, and we have no need for those... we've got the best army in the world and when you have that why bother with terrorism that way? Its much easier to just bully people into doing what you want...
Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
[B] The Canadian government has told all Canadian ships in the persian gulf that they are not to and any Iraqi's they may caputer over to the Americans and they specificly said even Saddam.
Them's fighting words. You go tell that to all the cheering Iraqis in Dearborn, Michigan...they're right over the border from you. [/B]
Some Politician spoke his opinion in ottawa , I can tell you most of canada and all oppositions parties are mightly pissed.
Liberals Cant seem to make up thier mind what side their on , Their respounces change from day to day and I can see the liberals on there way out.
Our deputy prime ministry says critizing the americans is a practice" of his free speech" , I can tell you not voting for him next election is a practice of my freedom of choice.
Nothing our dense goverment says is the true feelings of the canadian people.
If Suddam or any of his men were let free I can say I say alot of canadian would conciderd Overthrowing our goverment.
![[Image: 2_23_040703_infominister.jpg]](http://www.foxnews.com/images/86904/2_23_040703_infominister.jpg)
"The Infidels are nowhere near Baghdad!"
:evil:
I heard as he was bragging about killing U.S soldiers in Baghdad and repeling them back out At that very momment a loud explosion blew and a storm of American tanks stormed out.
Quote:And how exactly is most of Africa in the Eastern Hemisphere? Where do you draw the line?
That "line" is called the prime meridian and can be found on any map or globe. According to it, a very small portion of Africa is in the western hemisphere. The rest is in the east.
Quote:Originally posted by Weltall
"The Infidels are nowhere near Baghdad!"
:evil:
I kind of miss the "Iraqi Information Minister Comedy Hour". :D
It's Bahgdad Bob! My favorite Saddam lacky though had to be the Iraqi ambassador to the UN: "The game is over". :D
Quote:Originally posted by alien space marine
Some Politician spoke his opinion in ottawa , I can tell you most of canada and all oppositions parties are mightly pissed.
Liberals Cant seem to make up thier mind what side their on , Their respounces change from day to day and I can see the liberals on there way out.
Our deputy prime ministry says critizing the americans is a practice" of his free speech" , I can tell you not voting for him next election is a practice of my freedom of choice.
Nothing our dense goverment says is the true feelings of the canadian people.
If Suddam or any of his men were let free I can say I say alot of canadian would conciderd Overthrowing our goverment.
They never said they would let them go, they said they would not turn them over to the Americans. What would happen to them would depend on the situation, Sadam would likely be sent to teh International War Crimes Tribunal in the unlikely even that they captured them.
I don't think anyone should have weapons of mass destruction and I have said this before, but you can't apply double standards to everything as the American government tends to do(and not just in this area)
I still don't belive that there would be the same reaction if Canada or Germany or one of the other western nations without them anounced that they were starting a nuclear weapons program
Quote:Originally posted by Dark Lord Neo
They never said they would let them go, they said they would not turn them over to the Americans. What would happen to them would depend on the situation, Sadam would likely be sent to teh International War Crimes Tribunal in the unlikely even that they captured them.
I don't think anyone should have weapons of mass destruction and I have said this before, but you can't apply double standards to everything as the American government tends to do(and not just in this area)
I still don't belive that there would be the same reaction if Canada or Germany or one of the other western nations without them anounced that they were starting a nuclear weapons program
This is like saying that it's wrong for cops to have guns if convicted killers can't have them too. There would not be the same reaction if one of these nations started such a program because they are peaceful and civilized nations. Iraq was neither. Double standards are definitely necessary sometimes.
"They are sick in their minds. They say they chemicals. I say to you this talk is not true. This is part of their sick mind. Their forces committed suicide by the hundreds. ... The battle is very fierce and Allah made us victorious. The fighting continues. Within days we will drive the imperialist bastards out of the Persian Gulf and Allah willing the Democrats will win the Imperialist Presidency in 2004 so that His Excellency Saddam Hussein may continue his peaceful and benevolent reign. If the Democratic party does not win the Imperialist Jackal presidency, His Excellency Saddam Hussein will use the nuclea... I mean Allah shall descend His Holy Wrath upon the imperialist bastards who, I reiterate, are nowhere near the great and historic city of Baghdad."
Oh come on... sure he didn't say much of anything that was true (the one truth was that Iraqi forces wouldn't use chemical or biological weapons), but he wouldn't care if the next US President was Republican or Democratic all that much... not once the war had started already...
Quote:Quote:Originally posted by Dark Lord Neo
I don't think anyone should have weapons of mass destruction and I have said this before, but you can't apply double standards to everything as the American government tends to do(and not just in this area)
I still don't belive that there would be the same reaction if Canada or Germany or one of the other western nations without them anounced that they were starting a nuclear weapons program
This is like saying that it's wrong for cops to have guns if convicted killers can't have them too. There would not be the same reaction if one of these nations started such a program because they are peaceful and civilized nations. Iraq was neither. Double standards are definitely necessary sometimes.
Uh, no. It is no more moral for us to have any of that stuff than it is for them... which is to say not very... however, I wouldn't advocate getting rid of all our nuclear weapons. That would not be smart as long as other people the world either have them or could have them... while they should NEVER be used, it wouldn't send a good message to terrorists or rogue nations if we said 'we now have no nukes'... to some extent they do deter some kinds of attacks...
However, Iraq has none of those and has no nuclear weapons program. He could not have had a functioning nuclear program inspectors in the country... nuclear facilities are large and not easily hidden at all... and Sadaam wasn't anywhere near getting any nukes or nuclear materials of note either. He tried since before the first Gulf War, but didn't succeed because not easy to get nukes or have a nuclear program in a nation as closely watched as his was...
Oh, and we'd probably santion lots of nations if started nuclear prgrams... such as the sanctions we have had on Pakistan right now over that very issue... but Canada or Germany or somng? Probably not... though since they most likely won't try that anytime soon if ever I don't think it'll be an issue. Like most Western nations that don't have them (ie all of them except Britain and France) we have plenty to protect them... though if they're ever needed it won't really matter for anyone because most people would probably be dead...
Whether or not it's morally right for anyone to have nukes is indeed questionable, but really now, would you rather we had them, or Saddam? Time has proven again and again that we're the ONLY true heros anymore. Both world wars, our state-of-the-art technology, logistics and manpower saved the WORLD. Who knows if it'll happen again...if we let cobwebs collect on our military, who'll save the world...? The UN...? LOL!!
One day Saddam was out driving in the countryside with his bodyguard. As they went past a farmhouse they ran over a pig. Saddam told his bodyguard to tell the people in farmhouse what happened and to apologize to them. The bodyguard went inside the house and was gone for a couple of hours. When he finally came back Saddam asked him why he was gone for so long. The bodyguard replied that when he told the people what happened they threw a big party. Saddam asked the bodyguard what he said. The bodyguard said "I told them that I'm Saddam's bodyguard and we killed the pig!"
:D
Quote: Whether or not it's morally right for anyone to have nukes is indeed questionable, but really now, would you rather we had them, or Saddam? Time has proven again and again that we're the ONLY true heros anymore. Both world wars, our state-of-the-art technology, logistics and manpower saved the WORLD. Who knows if it'll happen again...if we let cobwebs collect on our military, who'll save the world...? The UN...? LOL!!
If you think we are so much better and more responsible, you are looking at history with extremely thick blinders on... as I've explained many times in all those posts about how for decades we fully supported brutal dictators and terror groups and supression of popular opinion if it helped "fight communism"...
Guy: I will not rest until I conquer the most BIG country on Earth!
Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
If you think we are so much better and more responsible, you are looking at history with extremely thick blinders on... as I've explained many times in all those posts about how for decades we fully supported brutal dictators and terror groups and supression of popular opinion if it helped "fight communism"...
But in comparison we eliminated the danger posed by three of history's most dangerous and murderous regimes. Even we're allowed to make mistakes. Mistakes that we can learn from.
If only we knew back then that Communism was destined to collapse regardless of what we did militarily, we could have saved ourselves so much trouble and so many lives.
Yeah... but it wasn't always communis,. as our support for Sadaam as a way to stop the Islamic radicals in Iran showed...
Support one dictator against another or against the opinion of the people of that nation and you'll usually get burned eventually?
True.
And that's a lesson I hope we've learned.
What with our support of dictatorships in Pakistan, China, and others, I'm not so sure...