Tendo City

It fits in the Multiconsole Forum better. Go there.

Actually I think it'd be seen more and be more appropriate in Ramble City.

Then move it again if you want...

You damn liberals are always starting class warfare because you believe success should be punished, and those that fail deserve rewards.

...my apologies, but this thread was doomed to a short life. Might as well get my licks in :D

But the poor need help that the rich don't because they already have all they need... poor shouldn't be expected to give the same amount back to their community...

*Darunia enraged that his thread was moved, and then bashed as being unsuccessful*

*Weltall's enormous metal throat slashed later that day*

Okay, I'll move it to Ramble.

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
But the poor need help that the rich don't because they already have all they need... poor shouldn't be expected to give the same amount back to their community...

The poor should give MORE back to the community because they receive more from it. They should be given incentives to achieve wealth so that they are no longer poor. They should be encouraged to work more, and spend more wisely, that can truly help them rise from poverty. Throwing money at them works in the short term, the problem is, why work harder when you get money for nothing? Where's the incentive? It's a great, nice idea, and it works sometimes, unfortunately, giving money to the poor creates a generation of people who feel they are entitled to free checks without giving back to the community, which is why welfare failed.

I'm all for giving the poor assistance within reason, but there should be a much heavier emphasis placed on trying to make them more productive members of society. That way, they would generate their own income faster, not require welfare, and then the unfair taxes on the rich could be equaled out. The whole thing is not to make being poor easier, but to make it harder, and less attractive, so those that are poor are more willing to bring themselves out of poverty. I think that those who do not want to work, produce, or contribute to society and just live off of government money, spending their checks on drugs and booze deserve not a single red cent and should be left to fend for themselves until they wise up. Welfare aid should only be given to those who show enough gumption to give back to the community what the community gives them.

And anyone is capable of being successful. Being stupid or lazy isn't genetic.

Do you think that's a fair plan?

Quote:Originally posted by Weltall
The poor should give MORE back to the community because they receive more from it. They should be given incentives to achieve wealth so that they are no longer poor. They should be encouraged to work more, and spend more wisely, that can truly help them rise from poverty. Throwing money at them works in the short term, the problem is, why work harder when you get money for nothing? Where's the incentive? It's a great, nice idea, and it works sometimes, unfortunately, giving money to the poor creates a generation of people who feel they are entitled to free checks without giving back to the community, which is why welfare failed.

I'm all for giving the poor assistance within reason, but there should be a much heavier emphasis placed on trying to make them more productive members of society. That way, they would generate their own income faster, not require welfare, and then the unfair taxes on the rich could be equaled out. The whole thing is not to make being poor easier, but to make it harder, and less attractive, so those that are poor are more willing to bring themselves out of poverty. I think that those who do not want to work, produce, or contribute to society and just live off of government money, spending their checks on drugs and booze deserve not a single red cent and should be left to fend for themselves until they wise up. Welfare aid should only be given to those who show enough gumption to give back to the community what the community gives them.

And anyone is capable of being successful. Being stupid or lazy isn't genetic.

Do you think that's a fair plan?

Rehab should stay as it not just adults it also kids with drug abuse problems , Rehabilitation is the best way to turn drugies and drunks into productive members of society instead of locking them up in jail which does nothing but cost even more money.

Welfare should be only for those actively enlisting for work but currently need some dough to hold till then.

I am disgusted in family members who dont even attempt to get a Job and go years on welfare.While they waste it on junk like ciggerates and porn.

Oh, the great success that is welfare-to-work... making people with no skills do dead end, minimum wage jobs and make so little that they would make more and be much better off (they wouldn't have to spend lots of time away from their children (which is more of a problem for poor people who can't afford much of anything of help alleviate that) if they were allowed to be on welfare like before... they sure don't have a chance of making enough money to live on on any job they could get with their level of skills... yeah, great... so fair...

"have people work" sounds nice but it doesn't work out too well with the groups that you want to make do that.

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Oh, the great success that is welfare-to-work... making people with no skills do dead end, minimum wage jobs and make so little that they would make more and be much better off (they wouldn't have to spend lots of time away from their children (which is more of a problem for poor people who can't afford much of anything of help alleviate that) if they were allowed to be on welfare like before... they sure don't have a chance of making enough money to live on on any job they could get with their level of skills... yeah, great... so fair...

"have people work" sounds nice but it doesn't work out too well with the groups that you want to make do that.

I think instead of throwing them in dead end jobs to stay, that money instead goes toward schooling, basic schooling first, since many lack even that, and then community college courses if they show propensity for it. If you get even an associate's degree in a community college you can get a decent paying job, and it doesn't cost that much to attain. From there, they leave welfare altogether and then choose what they want to do with their lives, as they will have more than just basic skills.

Obviously some people aren't going to be able to handle that, as they want a free ride, and it's exactly those people who deserve help the least. They NEED the kick in the ass most. Sure, they'd be better off just on straight welfare in the short term, but that's exactly my point: You don't WANT people comfortable on Welfare! You want them able to survive, and meet basic needs, while they try to advance themselves. You want welfare to be not pleasurable or enjoyable but a rough helping hand to something better. I don't support the total elimination of welfare, except for people who don't want to work. If you took away the handouts, they'd have no choice but to work, to contribute, if they wanted to avoid begging and dumpster dining to survive. No one is entitled to money for nothing. And I'm sure the taxpayers would have far fewer complaints about how their taxes were used on the poor if they were used in a constructive manner.

I sure as hell would.

Teach them? Not all people can... and you're saying that the people who most need help (who can't/ aren't able to learn or work, or have families who need them) should be thrown out in the streets... that's just wrong...

Oh, and your plan sounds very idealistic to me... it'd never begin to work in the real world...

And I'd hardly say that welfare is a waste of money.

I think whats wrong is having people on welfare in a city with high job vacancies.

Giving them jobs keeps them from criminal activity.What the U.S needs is a federal program devouted to helping the poor low encome citizens find sucessful careers weither it be free remedial education or just help finding work.(like in canada)

Instead of just forcing the people that have made somthing out of themselves, support everyone who hasint.


People who dont want to work should have their kids taken away.

Welfare is a social experiment gone awry. Not to be racist, but in all honest, nearly all welfare recipients I'VE ever seen are hispanic. That bugs me; but taxes paying for them to raise illegal kids and not have to work. We need LESS OF THAT, or even better, NONE OF THAT!

If there's one thing I strongly disagree with republicans it is the topic of rich and poor taxes. Weltall says that poor people should have to pay more because they get the most from their government and that they should basically get better jobs. Well what about people that decided that having a more noble and decent job is more important than getting a six figure salary? What about policemen, teachers, and game designers (ok so maybe that's not that noble--but you love your games, don't you?)? Not everyone in the lower and middle class are janitors, Weltall.

Yeah... plenty of people on welfare DO have jobs but get paid so badly that they need more to just survive... because minimum wage is nowhere near livable... and plenty more without welfare can barely make it because of how low their salaries are... a flat tax there would just hurt them more than they already are hurt... it'd make the rich very happy of course though and that's all that Bush cares about. The poor and middle classes are the last thing in his mind.

*waits for Weltall to come in and call me a DAMN LIBERAL, even though I'm neither liberal nor republican*

If a rich person is paying $300,000 in taxes out of a million, and a poor person is paying $3,000 in taxes out of ten thousand, that is fair to everyone. You don't want fair. You want the rich to be penalized even more, when they and the middle class pay 95% of the federal government's income. The 'poor' pay about 5%. Why don't you just say that? You know that excess taxes on the rich never end up with the poor. It is just as likely to end up in some billion-dollar liberal think-tank project researching the long-term effects of buffalo semen on arctic wildlife as in the hands of a single mother with three kids.

I just don't understand why you are against making the poor better themselves. They don't pick lower-paying jobs because of their nobility, it's because it takes less education and work to get those jobs. Six figure salaries come to those who put in extra effort in their education. I'm not rich by any means, I'm not even really middle class, but I have a very definite shot at attaining a six figure salary and that's my goal in life. If I can do it, so can others. If you settle for mediocre jobs and lousy pay, you have no one to blame but yourself. Even the poor can get ample student loans and financial aid.

I could have posted for you since I knew exactly what you were going to say. So poor people are all just a bunch of lazy, stupid people that should be punished for not being rich. That's terrific logic. If you honestly think that it's a simple matter of choosing the right job or education then you are extremely naive. There are many different factors that can make a person poor. I'm not in the lower class, but I know many people that were forces into the lower class because of poor ecomic conditions or the lack of demand for a certain profession. There's this one janitor that cleans at my work and I frequenty have conversations with him whenever he's around. He has a masters in civil engineering but soon after he got out of college the demand for civil engineers dimished so greatly that he was forced to get a job as a janitor in order to survive and feed his kid. There are million of people out there in similar situations, so don't give me that bullshit about people being too stupid or lazy to get rich.

I'm sure that there are plenty of poor people out there that are lazy or whatever, but that's not the case with everyone and they should not be punished for it. Despite what you may think, the lower class has it the worse and the upper class has it the best. I'm a middle class citizen and I'm stuck in the middle by having to pay a lot of taxes like the upper class but not getting the same benefits of the lower class (I'm too rich to get free healthcare but too poor to buy it), and I agree that that has to change. But taxing the absolute lower class even more is not going to fix that problem.

You just can't expect everyone to be able to handle college... or have the ambition (or the possibilites, which is the more common block. Its not like all people can afford it even with loans...) to do that...

And a flat tax sounds fair but its not. Its not fair to the middle and lower classes... and is very generous to the rich. It sounds good - "same amount"... but it doesn't work out that way. In the end, the poor and a significant part of the middle class would end up with higher taxes while the rich would be much better off... and this country should not be in the business of making the least needy people -- the rich -- allowed to get more and more money while the rest of the people struggle.

Quote:Originally posted by OB1
I could have posted for you since I knew exactly what you were going to say. So poor people are all just a bunch of lazy, stupid people that should be punished for not being rich. That's terrific logic. If you honestly think that it's a simple matter of choosing the right job or education then you are extremely naive. There are many different factors that can make a person poor. I'm not in the lower class, but I know many people that were forces into the lower class because of poor ecomic conditions or the lack of demand for a certain profession. There's this one janitor that cleans at my work and I frequenty have conversations with him whenever he's around. He has a masters in civil engineering but soon after he got out of college the demand for civil engineers dimished so greatly that he was forced to get a job as a janitor in order to survive and feed his kid. There are million of people out there in similar situations, so don't give me that bullshit about people being too stupid or lazy to get rich.

I'm sure that there are plenty of poor people out there that are lazy or whatever, but that's not the case with everyone and they should not be punished for it. Despite what you may think, the lower class has it the worse and the upper class has it the best. I'm a middle class citizen and I'm stuck in the middle by having to pay a lot of taxes like the upper class but not getting the same benefits of the lower class (I'm too rich to get free healthcare but too poor to buy it), and I agree that that has to change. But taxing the absolute lower class even more is not going to fix that problem.

Who said anything about taxing the poor more? They're hardly taxed at all as it is, and most of their income is tax money to begin with.

I know who has it worst and who has it best. But what you're saying is that there should be no incentive to try and improve your status. You're saying that it should be attractive to be poor by, instead of helping them out of poverty, contributing to it by giving them uncontrolled money.

Quote:You just can't expect everyone to be able to handle college... or have the ambition (or the possibilites, which is the more common block. Its not like all people can afford it even with loans...) to do that...

If you don't have the ambition to better yourself, you deserve to live in squalor. Why on earth should we ENCOURAGE people to stay poor? Where is the logic here? "You're incompetent and will not take advantage of education, so here's $500 more every month, just because we care." That does so much for them, like allow them to spend money I work hard for on booze or a nicer TV than I have.

Quote:And a flat tax sounds fair but its not. Its not fair to the middle and lower classes... and is very generous to the rich. It sounds good - "same amount"... but it doesn't work out that way. In the end, the poor and a significant part of the middle class would end up with higher taxes while the rich would be much better off... and this country should not be in the business of making the least needy people -- the rich -- allowed to get more and more money while the rest of the people struggle.

Explain this, please. I want mathematical figures showing how a flat tax would mean more taxes for the poor. That sounds ridiculous and is utter bullshit. If everyone pays 20% Of their income as taxes, how does that result in the poor paying a higher percentage?

Seriously, you do come up with some odd figures sometimes.

Quote:Who said anything about taxing the poor more? They're hardly taxed at all as it is, and most of their income is tax money to begin with.

If they were to make a flat rate then the poor would have to pay even more taxes than they are paying now.

Quote:I know who has it worst and who has it best. But what you're saying is that there should be no incentive to try and improve your status. You're saying that it should be attractive to be poor by, instead of helping them out of poverty, contributing to it by giving them uncontrolled money.

I'm saying that not all poor people are poor because of the reasons that you suggested. And you're suggesting that the rich should get taxed less and the poor get taxed more.

Hmmm...I think I'm with Weltall this time 'round. Handouts don't help...but I don't see how taxing them more will help ANYONE at all. Rich people should be taxed more, but not to a large extent...and one thing I can NOT STAND is how people can win a $50 million scratch ticket, but the government gets half of it...how the fuck does that work anyway??

Quote:and one thing I can NOT STAND is how people can win a $50 million scratch ticket, but the government gets half of it...how the fuck does that work anyway??

The more you make, the more you get taxed on it...

Quote:

Quote:Who said anything about taxing the poor more? They're hardly taxed at all as it is, and most of their income is tax money to begin with.

If they were to make a flat rate then the poor would have to pay even more taxes than they are paying now.

Yeah... I don't have numbers right here but I know for sure that that is the case. Flat taxes mean higher taxes for a lot of the lower and some middle brackets. And mean much, much lower ones for the top ones. No wonder millionare Steve Forbes was for the flat tax...

Quote:

Quote:I know who has it worst and who has it best. But what you're saying is that there should be no incentive to try and improve your status. You're saying that it should be attractive to be poor by, instead of helping them out of poverty, contributing to it by giving them uncontrolled money.

I'm saying that not all poor people are poor because of the reasons that you suggested. And you're suggesting that the rich should get taxed less and the poor get taxed more.

Again... yeah, Weltall... it sounds good "make them learn! Get them into higher tax brackets!" But why can't you understand that for a lot of these people that is effectively impossible? They just CANNOT get an education... or in many cases a better job. A dead-end one? No problem, but as I said already that'd just lead to working 3 jobs and never being there to care for their children... which would harm their development a lot...

Its just not true that poor people are poor because they are lazy. For a few, yeah... but not for a lot of them. For most they don't have the skills, ability, or chances to go anywhere... and the best way to help people like that is give them welfare and hope they spend it well...

And while it may encourage some people to not get jobs, those people are generally the ones who could never get a job that'd make enough to make up for the lack of welfare anyway and could never afford the education to get better training...

Quote:Originally posted by OB1
If they were to make a flat rate then the poor would have to pay even more taxes than they are paying now.

No, with a flat income tax, sales and other such taxes would be eliminated, so it would balance out quite a bit.

Quote:I'm saying that not all poor people are poor because of the reasons that you suggested. And you're suggesting that the rich should get taxed less and the poor get taxed more.

No I'm not. The term I used was 'contribute more to society', and there are more ways of doing that than paying taxes. Such as getting a job. I'm saying everyone be taxed an equal percentage of their income.

How about, instead of income tax, we tax all products and services with one flat tax? (Very rough idea)

Wait, wait... we get less tax money by using a flat tax and then get rid of sales and other taxes? Are you nuts?

Anyway... most of those taxes are state taxes, not federal taxes... sales tax sure is. Note how some states (such as New Hampshire) have no sales tax...

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Wait, wait... we get less tax money by using a flat tax and then get rid of sales and other taxes? Are you nuts?

Anyway... most of those taxes are state taxes, not federal taxes... sales tax sure is. Note how some states (such as New Hampshire) have no sales tax...

No, with the elimination of other taxes, the flat income tax should be higher than it is now.

True about the sales tax though, I forgot about that. NH is the only state without one I think, though.

Doesn't Delaware not have one too? I'm not sure though...

And the federal government can't repeal state taxes unless they are against the law... which sales taxes aren't and won't become...

For most they don't have the skills, ability, or chances to go anywhere... and the best way to help people like that is give them welfare and hope they spend it well...

Thats where you're wrong. Giving them their living because they can't won't earn is NOT the answer. If that worked, people wouldn't be living off of it. I worked in a grocery store; I see what kind of people come in with welfare checks.

Not eliminate sales tax, but spread it out over everything. Like I said, only an idea.

Like the T-Shirt says, "It's important that I work hard, because millions of welfare recipients are counting on me!"

I cant see why some people feel working a part time job is such a bad thing.They should only get aid if they have kids.

Like the T-Shirt says, "It's important that I work hard, because millions of welfare recipients are counting on me!"

LOL, I want that shirt, Weltall! :D


I cant see why some people feel working a part time job is such a bad thing.They should only get aid if they have kids.

I think the only people who should get free livings are the mentall and physically handicapped...people who really CAN'T make their own livings. Them, and of course people who are too old...not fucking immigrants!

Ah, discrimination against immigrants, a great American tradition... how nice...

Why would immigrants be any less qualified for this than the rest of the population? The only difference is they aren't from this country...

And people with kids just shouldn't have to work 2 or 3 jobs just to get by once they're tossed off of the Welfare rolls... its bad for them and their children...

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Ah, discrimination against immigrants, a great American tradition... how nice...

Why would immigrants be any less qualified for this than the rest of the population? The only difference is they aren't from this country...

And people with kids just shouldn't have to work 2 or 3 jobs just to get by once they're tossed off of the Welfare rolls... its bad for them and their children...

I just love it when people in Canada the US make fun of imigrants, especially considering the fact that the vast majority of the population of both countries are decendents of imigrants, many have grandparents or great grandparents who were imigrants.

Ah, how nice, two Canadians luxoriously critiquing our immigration. Yet Canada isn't being engulfed in worthless latinos, who come into the nation to live for free of of hard-working people. As bad as that sounds, its true...it's not BECAUSE they're latinos that they're worthless...any immigrant from anywhere could be worthless, but he vast majority of them come over, whether or not legally. They don't bother learning english (hence everyone else must learn spanish), and live off of welfare. Don't knock our stance because it isn't your problem.

My ancestors came to America 400 years ago; to hell with "we're all the grandchildren and great-grandchildren" of immigrants. My ancestors built this goddamned country out of the wilderness...and now we're handing it over to the latinos.:hammer:

Darunia, if you try to deny that you don't just hate them because of stereotypes and racism (against immigrants, and latinos in particula, you're lying...

Oh, and Canada gets lots of immigrants too... especially when you consider the small size of the country...

Oh, and some of my ancestors go back almost 400 years too... not that that should count for anything...

There are a lot of immigrants who come to America and don't work, they contribute to... wrong word, leech from the welfare system that hardworking people such as myself are paying for. And because I'm a hardworking person who pays for their well-being, I have a right to speak my mind on what I think of them.

Now, most of us are the descendants of immigrants. But back in their time, there were no handouts or free welfare. Our ancestors had to work for anything they had. Now, come for the freedom, stay for the free checks. And it's even worse when they're here illegally. That most definitely bothers me. Is it anti-immigration? Not at all, I have no problem with immigrants who come here and are willing to make an honest living (such as the future wife of our own lazyfatbum :)) but I am very much against people who come here and refuse to work because they'll make more from government handouts. Of course, I think that about everyone, immigrant or not.

Thank you Weltall...I suppose I didn't get my point across so clearly.

What bothers me is how there are now more latinos than Black people in the country (as of last year), and because of it, now everything is written in Spanish...at the ATMs, on signs...it irks me.

Thank you for trying to say im not a racist.

See? I'm a racist!

Quote:Originally posted by Darunia
Thank you Weltall...I suppose I didn't get my point across so clearly.

What bothers me is how there are now more latinos than Black people in the country (as of last year), and because of it, now everything is written in Spanish...at the ATMs, on signs...it irks me.

Oh no a sizable portion of your population speaks another language and now theirs more than 1 language on signs, how horrible
In Europe there is frequently multiple languages on signs and ATM's, same with in Canada, and it's not just English and French here, there is frequently chinese or spanish on the signs.

Quote:Originally posted by A Black Falcon
Thank you for trying to say im not a racist.

See? I'm a racist!

Well, you do support affirmative action.

Quote:Oh no a sizable portion of your population speaks another language and now theirs more than 1 language on signs, how horrible
In Europe there is frequently multiple languages on signs and ATM's, same with in Canada, and it's not just English and French here, there is frequently chinese or spanish on the signs.

You miss the point. It's not simply that there is spanish subtext that irritates people, it's that so many hispanic immigrants make no effort to learn our language. This nation is predominantly English-speaking. Why should the 90% or so of us who speak English be forced to adapt to the 10% who don't? I should think those 10% should adapt to the 90%. If everything they see is in spanish and English, there is no incentive for them to learn the native tongue.

Affirmative action isn't racism...

Oh, and America has always had immigrants. From day one. Remember that when they wrote the Constitution they didn't put in it "English is our national language and everyone should speak it"? Why? Because of the huge German population, mostly, as well as some Dutch, Swedes, etc... immigrants, and immigrants who don't learn English, have always been a part of this country...

Oh, and most of them do eventually learn English... and their children almost all would...