http://thehylia.com/index.php?subaction=...m=&ucat=5&
This is interesting. I'm really starting to look forward to this game. Further, Miyamoto goes on to say he had the staff research the Zelda franchise to make sure everything they are putting in this game fits. They DO care!
kool but they care more than you know. Ever play the newer version of OoT? ever wonder why the vocals in the fire temple or the mirror shield's original symbols were changed?
Did you?
Did you *really* wonder?
I hope its really good, Nintendo needs to show that they can bring AAA flagships to DS and yunno, actually use the DS features. NSMB is amazing but oops look at the lack of almost every single DS feature like it was purposefully avoided. Where's the cream filling?
The Phantom knows!
omfg :love:
But NSMB was such a fantastic traditional SMB sequel that I'd hate to see it done with stylus control or something else like that. Not that I wouldn't like to see a new experimental DS Mario game... but I'm glad that NSMB turned out the way it did!
Muslims complained because that chanting, that cool chanting, was actually one of their prayers. Personally if they felt they needed to change it, I'd have recorded nearly identical sounding chanting but in a made up language instead. Now it's cut out and the Fire Temple sounds worse for it. That's why I still have my old gold cartridge.
As for the shield, apparently some more got upset about the moon and star symbol. I thought that was a little silly, I liked that. I did notice that rather dull symbol they replaced it with got a... piraty place in a later Zelda.
BoB1, to be honest I didn't really like New Super Mario Bros that much. It just didn't live up to SMB3 for me.
No it's not as good as SMB3, but it felt like a true sequel to SMB1, which I love.
I still am surprised they went with that name though... I mean it isn't new any more, and if they ever release another 2D Mario game, what are they going to call it? New Super Mario Bros 2? Newer Super Mario Bros? Maybe Super Mario Bros 4? At any rate, the moment it comes out, we'll end up calling it Old New Super Mario Bros. At any rate, it always sounded like a project name more than one they were actually going to call the game, so it caught me off guard when it actually was called that, and the way they set up the title on it made it look like an advertisement of sorts. "New! Super Mario Bros, as seen on TV! TV! It was on TV and that gives it value!"
DJ are you familiar with retelling ancient stories through use of iconic imagery and/or sound effects? :D The Zelda stories are always extremely deep but simple on the surface, very Hemingway among others.
I was talking about Mario there. And, isn't everyone famliar with retelling stories? Yeah, I know Zelda's basically retelling it's own story over and over again, and that basic outline of "save the princess" is standard fairy tale stuff. I'd say barely anything is completely original in there, but that's okay.
Anyway, why do you ask?
So what you mean is no, then? :D
Zelda's almost entirely taken from old world stories around the middle east, persia, eastern europe and more. Retelling ancient mythologies from those parts of the world. The temples, the bosses, the enemies and the story lines themselves are all from various real religions and mythos. It's similar to how Warhammer 40k takes stories from the bible and reimagines them.
Warhammer 40k ripped off Lord of the Rings (which ripped off about a million celtic, norse, and english legends), not the holly bibble. Then Starcraft ripped off Warhammer 40k.
So um, basically what I'm still asking is, why did you bother bringing it up? At no point did I say Zelda was this compelling original story. I don't know from persian mythology, but did you honestly think that anyone but anyone didn't see the whole hyrule flood in wind waker for what it was?
Oh wait! Are you talking about the changes in OOT? The muslim complaints ARE why they changed it. Honestly, it's worse for the changes if you ask me.
Starcraft took ideas from everything in science fiction, not just Warhammer 40k, and it's got plenty of new things in its plot too... saying it "ripped it off" is just wrong, just like how saying that D&D ripped off Tolkien or something is also false... of course there are connections, and perhaps inspiration (though I think the D&D creators said that it was more based off of later Tolkien-ish books and not LotR itself), but while some, less remembered, things truly are just copies of what came before the better ones, like Warhammer or Starcraft, may have been inspired by identifiable older sources but have their own way of doing things that makes them unique. Zelda works similarly, though less coherently because the Zelda series does not have much stable continuity... every game is really its own separate thing and any connections between the titles are as much supposition as they are fact. Within each separate game though, absolutely.
Okay okay, strong term there on my part. I use it in the same sense that Metroid ripped off those alien movies, but to me personally, I didn't like those alien movies at all but I love Metroid. Perhaps the more polite "inspired by"? Anyway, I've been playing a game called Scurge lately, as I found it new for $10, and it's pretty fun, though a more blatant than usual ripoff of Metroid in general.
Still not sure what lazy's getting at though. If he's got an idea about that music or shield he should just say it. He sucks at socratic method.
Scurge is good, but yeah, blatant Metroid stuff going on there... though the gameplay is different of course, being isometric. And much less nonlinear. :) As far as plot and setting and the character you play as though... yes. "Inspired by". :)
... that's a much more blatant and less original one than Starcraft is when compared to Warhammer 40k, though...
the idea of hidden meanings is difficult for alot of people to grasp. Try wiki for a detailed explanation.
No it's not. Everyone understands what a "hidden meaning" is. All I'm asking is what hidden meaning are you talking about? Surely if your responses so far are just saying I'm ignorant of it, you could do me the favor of enlightening me. There's no need to dance around it is there? Just tell me what your interpretation of whatever it is you are talking about is. I really have no idea which thing you are talking about here. Are you talking about the shields and music we were talking about before? The overall story? (I still haven't beaten Twilight Princess. I need to get back to that game.) Maybe something about Wind Waker specifically? I don't know, you never specified. How am I supposed to figure out which exact thing you are talking about if you don't make yourself clear?
A Black Falcon Wrote:Scurge is good, but yeah, blatant Metroid stuff going on there... though the gameplay is different of course, being isometric. And much less nonlinear. :) As far as plot and setting and the character you play as though... yes. "Inspired by". :)
... that's a much more blatant and less original one than Starcraft is when compared to Warhammer 40k, though...
Metroid didn't invent the "Metroid formula" though. It just perfected it in platformer form.
Sci-fi story with a female bounty hunter fighting aliens and stuff? In videogames I can't think of any like that before Metroid...
In video games no, but Metroid is entirely based off Alien. Ridley even originally looked like Alien from the movie and is named after the director of it, Ridley Scott.
DJ/ First you said that they dont care about the story, I was alluding to the idea of hidden meanings that actually got a spotlight when it offended muslims showing how deep the story actually is, you said you didn't understand, so I said look up hidden meanings on wiki. If you still dont get it, the muslim chanting in the fire temple (as well as the indian chanting in the forest temple and etc) are to provide hints to the player that they're jumping between classical mythologies from different cultures. Each Zelda plays on it differently and sometimes its much less mythological and more tongue in cheek.
In WW you find yourself in a vastly different Zelda world where the old world has been frozen and forgotten. But when you're given a wand by the red dragon, you're able to change the direction of the wind. Get it yet? Nintendo even went further and added a subgame to collect statues, the store owner even mentions "We used to be cool and popular but lately it's gone downhill... things are gonna change though".
A red dragon stylized in Shinto architecture, in essence an icon of Japan called The King of Red Lions (related to classical Japanese culture), gave the game player a white wand that changes the direction of the wind. In other words, changes the direction of Nintendo and (hopefully) the industry giving the game player the ability to control things in a new way, which happens to be through the use of a white wand which will 'awaken' Nintendo's former glory (literally awakening the former glory of Hyrule). Usually Nintendo leaves its inside jokes to quick sound bytes or text like in Mario RPG's, but this time they went for a much grander approach. The newish director helped out here alot as Miyamoto is more inclined to focus purely on the idea of overcoming childhood fears and the excitement of taking risks while jumping through an iconic history of the real world of sorts.
Since Zelda 2, the game series has been built around the middle east, persia, asia and eastern europe with Japan being central to its universe, such as using the serpinski triangle (not sure on spelling) which is actually a very real Japanese crest of shoguns of which there are dozens that I know of anyway (hence Ganon trying to steal its power or destroy it, removing Japan's golden age and making it a unified government under one evil ruler, hence the pure of heart Zelda who represents peace being the true leader who cant fight for herself). The Zelda maps since then always contains each real-world equivalent which is always added to and fleshed out more with each game, such as adding the Goron race with their obvious asian overtones in OoT, a people responsible for making bombs (black powder) who live in their empire and nearly oblivious to the rest of the world. In TP, they take on a role of American Indian as that game is more or less based in an 'old west' style, selling you potions, arrows etc and using natural resources. The fun part is that American Indians are traced back to asian roots.
Getting back to the muslim overtones, in the fire temple you must destroy a chinese styled dragon named Volvagia using a magic hammer because Ganondorf turned Volvagia in to evil when it was, at one time, a god worshiped by the Gorons. An old tale in Goron history is that the God became angry and one of the Gorons would rise as a hero to destroy it. In effect: Link is named a 'brother' and an 'honorary Goron' for both bringing love back in to the life the leader and for removing the curse of the caverns that Ganondorf put in place (that curse: using ancient demons against its own people). Its also worth mentioning that Darunia than named his own son 'Link' sealing the bridge of the 'blood brother'.
In history there were many battles between muslims and china, with the mongols usually taking the victory. Entering the fire temple to destroy the chinese dragon, you hear a muslim chant which is a prayer. As Link, you defeat the old Chinese dragon that had been confused by Ganondorf's tricks, freeing the Goron people but at the same time, removing its leader from power (who awakens as a sage) and causes a new government within the Goron empire (dynasty) where they proclaim "We'll never fall for those old tricks again".
getting to the mirror shield we find Link between the persians (gerudo) and a temple of light in the desert which has been forgotten but was once a place of worship for the gerudo people. This is the battles of the ottoman empire. The gerudo are explained to have brought Ganondorf in to the world and raised by two evils called Koume and Kotake, sisters who are always arguing and fighting. Sound familiar yet? Ganondorf representing the climb to power and unity of a single ruler in fact comes from the government ideals within the empire and their constant battles. Getting the shield which contains the symbol used by Islam as a symbol of faith (also on flags) you're able to shield yourself from the evil of Koume and Kotake and reflect it right back at them - You're using the faith of the muslim peoples to reflect the conflict and anger back at those who try to overthrow and corrupt, creating evil kings and dictators. All said and done, the Gerudo people have renewed faith and align themselves against Ganondorf. Without the shield (faith in God) you cant help but be absorbed by the desire for power and corrupted by evil, always in conflict and at war with each other - Faith destroyed the mother who birthed war who in some respects took on the appearance of a sexually charged woman who even winks at you. Its not the first time a 'whore' is used to describe a mentality or a thinking, the whore of babylon in the bible is a representation of Rome's greed who's only goal is power and wealth.
There's alot more but hopefully this kinda gives you an idea.
I think I'd like to nail one thing in the bud and say I said they DO care about the story. Someone else said otherwise.
As for the rest of that, that's an interesting interpretation and not at all beyond my neanderthal understanding (you seem to think I lack the mental faculties to understand symbolism, so I guess I'm a neanderthal). The key in any symbolism of course is I have to actually be familiar with what they are symbolizing. Saying "find out what hidden meanings are" is not just insulting, it doesn't help at all. I know what a hidden meaning is, everyone does. Instead, you should have pointed to specific cultural legends on wikipedia or something.
That said, I think that a lot of that is a bit of a stretch. The whole "wii remote" thing, well, how do you know that's what they were aiming at? I mean it all seems a little forced, like Nostradamus forced. If one of them has said as much that'd seal the deal for me. As it stands though, it doesn't really affect how I see the game either way.
The other stuff is interesting. Keep in mind I don't really study ancient mythology or anything (except Norse stuff, but that's just because Odin is the best god ever, and words like "einheriar" are just awesome sounding, and the TRUE creation story of a frost giant forming Midgard while feeding from the Prime Cow is great, and most of those words have like 5 consanents in a row, also every last god will die in the end to birth a new order). Huh, actually if they wanted to preview the Wii using the story of a Zelda game, where my norse mythos at? I mean there's the giant tree but that thing was no Yggdrassil... and the three main goddesses are more like some weird cross of the trinity and the deist "founder but then leaves the world to it's own devices" sort of god.
Anyway, all I'm saying is just because I didn't interpret it exactly as you did doens't mean I lack higher brain functions. Art is pretty much open to interpretation and how it's interpreted is going to be different for each person. Also if your interpretation is based on sufficiently vague bits, it's hard to really say if they intended for you to get that idea or not. After all, you didn't predict a Wii remote based on Zelda, you retrofitted that allusion after the fact.
I never thought you were ignorant to it, you made it sound like you didn't understand the concept or I misunderstood.
You do realize that Nintendo has been dropping cute little hints all over the place since the SNES days right? It's not Nostro-esque in that Nintendo is trying to help you predict anything, its just done as inside jokes, a shinto dragon giving link a white wand to change the direction of the wind is just too obvious. In animal crossing one of the characters says 'it displays billions of polygons!" when you talk to them wearing 3-D glasses, it caused a shit storm of rumors and it was just Nintendo playing. As for the hidden meanings if you study the ancient histories you see the clear cut mirrors to each other.
It's meant to be there 1.) as a crutch for the story tellers, using a pre-made story to iconically portray gives them fuel for writing and 2.) it offers a deeper layer of substance to the story for anyone who wants to dig (which is an audience believe it or not).
Norse mythos is complicated as all hell, trying to pronounce anything is like forcefully swallowing a dictionary whole. There was some norse in MM I think.
dont be so sensitive, if you're Neanderthal i'd hate to meet an idiot.