Tendo City

I think the witch toucher game got an equivalent of 15+.

Yeah, sounds about right. It's suggestive, but not actually sexual...

Mang I am sick of seeing articles on this boring sounding game! Seriously, it sounds like a cheap flash game of button mashing or finding the hidden object. And that said, I am SO looking forward to what the media is going to do once they catch wind of this thing...

SNK, cancel this and get to woik on Crystallis 2!

If it doesn't come out in the US (and I very much doubt it will, English website or no) then no one in the American press will care.

Also... the game:
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That game looks boring... It also seems to have blatant sexist overtones to the whole thing, which I guess is to be expected, but seriously, this is like "nothing says to a girl that you like her more than a firm open palmed slap on the breasts". I mean, hearts? I just hope no one is dumb enough to use this as dating (groping?) advice. I also seriously feel sorry for that hospitalized kid...

Blatant sexist overtones are in virtually all Japanese games with stories, I've found... sad, but true... Japan (and other east Asian cultures) are more sexist than Western ones are though, so that's not THAT surprising.

Here the excuse is that the guy isn't actually trying to date the girls, but get them to like him just enough that he can check them to see if they're the witch... bad excuse perhaps, but it's what they came up with to justify their game design. :)

As for the game's quality, I don't think it's a particularly high budget title. It just got popular based on its concept (and early artwork)...

Quote:Blatant sexist overtones are in virtually all Japanese games with stories

Whaaaat?

...what? Aside from the all too common sets of armor that don't seem to offer a... ahem... full set bonus... I'm not sure I follow. Lately there seem to be a lot of guys wearing this "belly shirt" armor in a lot of new games as well, so at least both genders are equally unprepaired for combat.

That's true, at least. Male costumes are almost as likely as female ones to be totally ridiculous for what they are supposedly doing. :) Not AS likely, but almost... that's hardly new either, as the barely-dressed barbarians of so many fantasy games (see Golden Axe for instance) show.

Quote:Whaaaat?

Just look at Japanese society and then American society. We've got plenty of problems with sexism, but it's worse there. Videogames just reflect that.

Quote:Videogames just reflect that.

My point wasn't that it didn't exist in videogames at all, but "in virtually all Japanese games with stories"? Come on.

lets see

Capcom: panty flashes jiggly tits, special costumes for more nudity and/or jiggle, check

Square: panty flashes, jiggly tits, full nudity, special costumes for more nudity and/or jiggle, check

Sega: panty flashes, jiggly tits, special costumes for more nudity, check

Tecmo: hahahahaha ;D

Yeah you keep thinking Japanese video games are cleaner than a Nun's asshole. ABF is right on the money. Even Samus Aran wore a string bikini and we all saw Peach's pantaloons.

Quote:Capcom: panty flashes jiggly tits, special costumes for more nudity and/or jiggle, check

Square: panty flashes, jiggly tits, full nudity, special costumes for more nudity and/or jiggle, check

Sega: panty flashes, jiggly tits, special costumes for more nudity, check

Tecmo: hahahahaha ;D

Which, no matter how you look at it, is a blatant exaggeration. Since we're going to make a big deal out of this, I'll list some of the major titles from each company and break them down.

Square-Enix

Final Fantasy 7
-Gameplay: You can have three different female characters in your party, two of which have a major impact on the story.
-Presentation: Aeris is basically a nun who more or less gives up her life to try and save the world. Tifa, while certainly not lacking in important aspects, plays a very large role in the story, sticking by Cloud when he's all wacked out and generally beating people up. Yuffie...well...you're supposed to hate her because she's a liar and a theif.
-Conclusion: Hardly a representation of sexism, given the roles played by female characters in the games.

Star Ocean 2
-Gameplay: Aside from the female characters you can recruit for your party, you can also play the game from Rena's perspective.
-Presentation: Rena, although somewhat naive, is still a fairly tough character who, in the end, saves two whole worlds from destruction. Other female characters also act as more than just damsels in distress or sex objects.
-Conclusion: Not much sexism here either.

Man, this taking a lot longer than I thought it would.

Capcom

Resident Evil 2:
-Gameplay: You play half of the game as Claire.
-Presentation: Claire wears conservative clothes and fights zombies hoards.
-Conclusion: Sexism? Not really.

Breath of Fire series:
-Gameplay: Nina is a playable character in every BoF game, along with other female characters.
-Presentation: Nina is always a close companion and confidant of Ryu, the main character in the series. She fights bad guys and stuff and helps you out a lot.
-Conclusion: Same as above.

Nintendo

Metroid series:
-Gameplay: You play as Samus Aran, a female, who's the toughest and baddest bounty hunter in the entire galaxy. The Federation would likely be in ruins without her.
-Presentation: Yes, under all the armor Samus Aran isn't exactly wearing a berka, but this is hardly a string bikini:





It's actually fairly conservative for that kind of dress. Of course, it's all in the presentation though and, aside from that one shot in the opening of SSBB, it's not something that's overly emphasised.
Conclusion: Not much here either.

You're best accusation for this one would be with Princess Peach, whose entire purpose in life is to be captured and then rescued. Zelda gets captured a lot, but, especially in the later games, her role is more developed and she actually does stuff. Plus, you've got Midna, she's pretty cool.

Tecmo

Xtreme Beach Volley Ball 2:
-Yeah, they made a second one. Just...man...what a company.

Again, my point wasn't that it didn't exist, but to say that it's prevalent, and BLATANT, in every Japanese game with a story is completely absurd.

Great Rumbler Wrote:My point wasn't that it didn't exist in videogames at all, but "in virtually all Japanese games with stories"? Come on.

It might be a slight exaggeration, but it's not THAT far off...

Quote:Final Fantasy

Not counting cell phone games which I know nothing about...

Number of Final Fantasy games where you create your character: 2 (FFCC, FFXI) (plus upcoming? Or do FFCC for DS and Wii have set characters, not character creation...)

Number of major Final Fantasy games with female main characters (the one you control): 2 (plus one upcoming)

Number of major Final Fantasy games with male main characters: all the rest -- 13? (10 main games, 2 FFT games, FFA if it counts, whatever I forgot)


As for FF7 itself, haven't played more than a few hours of it of course, but I did see the movie (FF7 Advent Children) and that 'recap video' thing on the second disc. Aeris seems like a pretty darn cliche female RPG character... she's the "mysterious girl who has a quest to save the world and needs help from your male main character in order to be able to do that quest" that you find in innumerable RPGs. The only twist is that here she dies and the main character's secret past (and special heritage) is revealed. Tales of Symphonia is another one with an initial "mysterious girl" plot with Collette, though of course after that there are a million big plot twists... other examples... there are so, SO many, but I could mention Skies of Arcadia, all of the Lunar games, etc, etc. You can make a great game (and even a great character) off of a "mysterious girl" character concept, but it's definitely by now a highly stereotypical role within the genre. Whether it's a sexist one or not... that's harder to determine, but it is true that the mysterious girls almost always need some male character's help. Of course, a big part of the RPG genre is about groups of people working together for a goal and not an individual doing everything on their own (action-RPGs are usually about single individuals, of course, but not traditional RPGs), so perhaps that's not saying THAT much. Still, it is a good point.

Quote:Star Ocean 2
-Gameplay: Aside from the female characters you can recruit for your party, you can also play the game from Rena's perspective.
-Presentation: Rena, although somewhat naive, is still a fairly tough character who, in the end, saves two whole worlds from destruction. Other female characters also act as more than just damsels in distress or sex objects.
-Conclusion: Not much sexism here either.

One of the rare cases of a JRPG with less sexism than usual, and character selection so you can play as either a male or female main character... not free of it (Rena is, of course, the healer as usual), but better than many.

Quote:Resident Evil 2:

The horror genre (in films and whatnot) frequently has female protagonists...

Quote:Breath of Fire series:
-Gameplay: Nina is a playable character in every BoF game, along with other female characters.
-Presentation: Nina is always a close companion and confidant of Ryu, the main character in the series. She fights bad guys and stuff and helps you out a lot.
-Conclusion: Same as above.

And how many times do you have to rescue her after she gets kidnapped?

Quote:Metroid series:

Definitely a series that is/was an exception to the rule (though with its success it has inspired more games with the "female scifi bounty hunter" theme).

Still... you win and you are presented with an image of a scantily-clad woman? While the main message is positive, because that's the playable character and not someone else (and she actually wears combat armor in combat), there's definitely another element there as well.

Quote:You're best accusation for this one would be with Princess Peach, whose entire purpose in life is to be captured and then rescued. Zelda gets captured a lot, but, especially in the later games, her role is more developed and she actually does stuff. Plus, you've got Midna, she's pretty coo

Peach is a textbook case of it, yeah. The only games where she does anything other than be kidnapped are Mario 2 (which is a dream), the Peach DS game (which is quite sexist with the "she uses emotion-based powers" thing -- they tried to tone it down in the American advertising, doing those "princesses in training" ads and stuff, but the original Japanese ads were more blatant), and the Paper Mario games (where she is kidnapped but you have (often funny) short interludes seeing what she's doing while kidnapped).

As for Zelda, I can't say anything on a broad scope about her because she varies greatly from game to game. In OoT and WW, she has fairly strong roles (though in both she does get kidnapped at some point, she's useful much of the rest of the time); in MM she's only in the intro; in LA, FS, FSA, and MC she's not present (though she is referenced in the LA intro); in LoZ, AoL, Oracles, LttP, and TP, though, she's simply a completely (the NES games) or mostly (the newer ones there) helpless princess you need to rescue.

In TP's case (as I have said before) they revert Zelda into an LttP-style role of "captured princess", which was really stupid, but they did put in Midna in a much stronger role. Since Zelda is the major female character of the series and not Midna, though, I don't think that that quite makes up for it.


Remember, there are many facets to this. The most important parts, I'd probably say, is the role that the character plays in the game (playable? major character? main character?) and the amount of stereotype and sexism present in the plot, writing, and basic game design. This varies from genre to genre. Perhaps the most interesting comparison is in the RPG genre. Now, this genre is one that is hard to compare between the East and West, as Western RPGs emphasize player choice and customizability while Eastern ones emphasize a plot following specific, set characters. They are two very different design styles that shape their genres. In the West, most RPGs allow you to customize your characters, and at least create the main character if not the whole party. (this made me think of listing all my RPGs by category... can I resist? But I already did it all in my head yesterday, so it wouldn't be THAT hard... :D) Japanese RPGs of course do that very rarely. This is important because it means that the sample size of Western RPGswhere you control just a single, set character which you cannot configure or create (and choose the gender of) is relatively small compared to the size of the genre; if Western RPGs were designed along Eastern design principles of using a preset party instead of creating or customizing at least the main character and perhaps more, would Western RPGs also almost always have male main characters? That's an impossible question to answer... still though, the fact is that in most Western RPGs you can choose to play as a female character if you so desire. There are qualifications to this -- FPS games with RPG elements like the System Shock or Deus Ex games generally have male main characters (as does the FPS genre as a whole; while there are some FPSes with female PCs, most aren't. This likely reflects the fact that FPSes are often more real-world than other genres (though I own exactly zero real-world FPSes, I'd imagine that I'm in a minority there among gamers. :)) and in modern armies women aren't allowed to join combat units in most places. Again, games reflecting society. Can't really compare this to Japanese games though, at least not directly, given how few games in the genre they make... :)

Similar problems come up in the strategy game genre, where most of the time in Western strategy games you are some anonymous commander never directly referred to with any details beyond your title, while most of the time in Eastern strategy games ("SRPGs" for instance) you have an obvious main character. I mean... who was the main character in Starcraft? You can't really pick out one person as the "main character" of the game... about as close as I can think of to that from Western strategy games is something like Disciples where you can take one and only one of your heroes on with you between missions, so you come to identify with that hero above any others, but that's still not quite the same. As far as Japanese strategy games go, their main characters are usually pretty similar to normal JRPG main characters I'd say...

Anyway, the point. First, you need to actually have significant female characters in the game. Then, you need writing and design that doesn't go overboard with stereotypes. I can certainly see why it'd be much, much easier to build a game around that because people expect many of those things, and many jokes and plot points and stuff are much easier to do by just relying on them, but that's still no excuse for everything... why is the main female character in a JRPG usually the healer and gets kidnapped at some point, for instance (and the kidnapping of course requires the male character to rescue her' they virtually never actually get out of the situation on their own)? Can't you think of something else?

Quote:Number of major Final Fantasy games with female main characters (the one you control): 2 (plus one upcoming)

Number of major Final Fantasy games with male main characters: all the rest -- 13? (10 main games, 2 FFT games, FFA if it counts, whatever I forgot)

I think you're confusing "giving the base something that they can related to" for "sexism". Let's face it, gaming is dominated by males and, as such, a lot of gaming protagonists are also male. That's not a fluke.

What I mean by bringing that up is that you're trying to meld two seperate issues into some overarching problem and I don't think you can do that. Sexism is a negative portrayal of woman or limiting them to bit parts, not necessarily having them in major supporting roles.

If I make one game without a main female characters, that's not sexism, but if I make a hundred it is?

Quote:The horror genre (in films and whatnot) frequently has female protagonists...

Well, so much for "virtually all".

Quote:Still... you win and you are presented with an image of a scantily-clad woman?

If by "scantily-clad" you mean "having as much clothes or more than most women you'll see on a summer day in the city" then yeah, I guess so.

It's a shot of Samus not wearing her bulky suit, not the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition.

Quote:It might be a slight exaggeration, but it's not THAT far off...

No, it actually is quite far off. But mostly becausing your confusing several issues here.

Quote:would Western RPGs also almost always have male main characters?

Without hestitation, a great deal of them would.

Quote:why is the main female character in a JRPG usually the healer and gets kidnapped at some point, for instance (and the kidnapping of course requires the male character to rescue her' they virtually never actually get out of the situation on their own)?

How many Japanese RPGs have you played recently, Brian? I can think of a lot that don't do or at least have very strong female characters in major supporting roles and that's just glancing through my PSX game collection.

Quote:I think you're confusing "giving the base something that they can related to" for "sexism". Let's face it, gaming is dominated by males and, as such, a lot of gaming protagonists are also male. That's not a fluke.

That is true. It's also a self-fulfilling argument -- the audience demands the games, so the games are made for the audience... neither end extends the market beyond where it started. "It's sexist because that's what people want"? True, but is that really addressing the issue?

Quote:What I mean by bringing that up is that you're trying to meld two seperate issues into some overarching problem and I don't think you can do that. Sexism is a negative portrayal of woman or limiting them to bit parts, not necessarily having them in major supporting roles.

If I make one game without a main female characters, that's not sexism, but if I make a hundred it is?

If you make a hundred games with male protagonists and none with female ones then yes, it is sexism.

Quote:Well, so much for "virtually all".

Not so much when you consider that the reason for that is probably that women are seen as more vulnerable by audiences, so seeing them get killed by the monsters does better than seeing men get killed... or perhaps it's that men prefer to see female victims (and survivors -- I remember an article a while back about horror movies, talking about how the same audience that earlier on was happily watching some female characters get butchered was later rooting for the last one (the main character) to survive and defeat the bad guy...) while women don't care and like the movies either way? Either way there are some definite issues there.

Quote:If by "scantily-clad" you mean "having as much clothes or more than most women you'll see on a summer day in the city" then yeah, I guess so.

It's a shot of Samus not wearing her bulky suit, not the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition.

So? That doesn't change the fact that my point is accurate. The image was originally meant as a reward for winning, really... it was interesting that they made the reward image the character you had been playing as, but still, the purpose is the same.

Quote:No, it actually is quite far off. But mostly becausing your confusing several issues here.

No, not really. Most people just don't consider most of these issues problems.

Quote:Without hestitation, a great deal of them would.

Perhaps. I probably should have followed that up by saying "but they do it right anyway, because character creation is better than forcing you to use one specific character." :)

Even so though, I think that if Western RPGs were designed that way games with female main characters would be more common than they are in Japanese RPGs. I mean, looking at writing and character designs in Western and Eastern RPGs as they are I see much less stereotyping and sexism in Western RPGs than I do in Eastern. Sure there are some of the same things going on, but it's just less... maybe I'm putting too much weight onto the major serieses like D&D games and Wizardry and stuff, but in most PC RPGs, the characters wear (or can wear) clothing or armor that actually makes sense given what they are doing, often have sprites or models that reflect their equipped armor, etc. No "one silly image and model of someone in some ridiculous costume and that's all you get" in most PC RPGs. There are exceptions of course, like the more console-style titles, but for the most part... sure, in Baldur's Gate for instance there is not total equality since the guards are all male and stuff, but that's minor and there are plenty of strong female roles (including your character of course if you create it that way). Some console RPGs do things better than most -- I thought that Summon Night: Swordcraft Story did a fantastic job for instance, and Skies of Arcadia shows you how a game can be cliche and not very sexist (though it's got many of the same old cliches I've mentioned here as well, I just felt that it had more good points than bad on the issue), but by and large...

Quote:How many Japanese RPGs have you played recently, Brian? I can think of a lot that don't do or at least have very strong female characters in major supporting roles and that's just glancing through my PSX game collection.

Hmm... I've been playing the two Summon Night Swordcraft Story games for GBA (which have sidescrolling action combat battles but are RPGs), which both do a really good job with scripting, and have a choice between a male or female character (which makes some scenes pretty funny either way, as they don't change the situations much between genders so some things just end up weird... :D Not a bad kind of weird, though. :) ), Skies of Arcadia again (as I said), Etrian Odyssey (which has no plot)... tried the first few hours of Breath of Fire (1) and almost bored myself to sleep... and some other stuff if I go back farther... so yeah, some of those games do have reasonably strong female characters. That doesn't mean that the overall tone of the genre, or games, is any different.

For instance, Lunar: Dragon Song. The male main character does like six times more damage than the main female character; she has healing magic but it runs out really fast. She attacks with a umbrella (what a SENSIBLE weapon to be fighting with... ), him with martial arts (feet primarily). There are several more characters, some female, but still... I know that main characters are often the most powerful characters in the party by far, but this is kind of ridiculous. The plot is ... meh... there but unremarkable... but the game is somewhat addictive, for some reason...

On the other hand, I really liked Summon Night Swordcraft Story 1. The main character is of the gender you choose; you have a companion, a 'Summon Creature', which casts your magic spells during battle and talks and stuff. There are four, you choose which one you want. There are also lots of conversation points thoughout the game and they actually matter... you can't just keep asking questions and get all the paths, you're stuck with the one you take. At one point late in the game your choice determines which character ending variant you get, but taking one for a character you haven't been talking to in the end-of-day conversations (which there are a limited number of and you can only choose one character's to see each time) would be pointless... anyway, I'd like to talk about the various characters and why I thought the game was so good, but that'd completely spoil the whole game and I don't want to do that for a game that you people should play... :)

This post is completely pointless because there are thousands of RPGs out there and attempting to list all of the ones I know something about and categorizing them is stupid, and the RPG genre bleeds over into all of the other ones so you can add lots of games really in other genres, but after writing it all I didn't want to delete it, so oh well...


Let me see... Western RPGs I own or have played.

Party-based: Create the whole party: (both genders available or no genders are specified)
Wizardry VI: Bane of the Cosmic Forge
Wizardry VII: Crusaders of the Dark Savant
Wizards & Warriors
Icewind Dale II
Dragon Wars
Curse of the Azure Bonds (SSI Gold Box)
Mazes of Fate (GBA)
Many, many more games from the '70s on

Party-based: Create the main character, get NPC allies to join: (both genders available)
Baldur's Gate I (and expansion Tales of the Sword Coast)
Baldur's Gate II (and expansion Throne of Bhaal)
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Dungeon Siege

Single-character: Create or choose the main character, can get NPC allies to follow you: (both genders available)
Fallout
Diablo II (with expansion Lord of Destruction)

Single-character, create or choose your character: (both genders available)
The Elder Scrolls: Arena
The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall (demo)
The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (with two expansions)
Castle of the Winds, episodes I and II
Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance (Gauntlet-inspired, action-focused action-RPG) (Gamecube)
Ultima Underworld (FPS-ish)
Ultima I
Gauntlet series -- all games (action games with slight RPG elements) (console and arcade)
DarkStone (Diablo-clone)

Online RPGs (create character, both genders available):
All MMOs Ever

----

Party-based: Use a preset male character, get prechosen allies of both genders:
Planescape: Torment (PC style RPG)
Aidyn Chronicles (PC-style RPG on the N64)
Anachronox (somewhat console styled)

Party-based: Use a preset male character, get prechosen allies of both genders:
Stonekeep (first-person RPG)
Betrayal at Krondor (PC-style RPG)

Party-based: Use a preset female character, get prechosen allies of both genders:
Septerra Core (PC, console style RPG)

Single-character: Use a preset character, male:
Arx Fatalis (four face choices and you choose a name, but male only) (first-person FPSish RPG)
The Deus Ex and System Shock games, if you call them RPGs and not FPSes (all male characters)
The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Redguard (male, action-rpg)
All five Quest for Glory games (male, adventure-RPG) (though in the early (public) beta demo of QFG V you can play as a female character in the arena, it was later cut)


Compared to Japanese games...

Party-based, create or choose all characters (choice of either gender):
Etrian Odyssey (create)
Drakkhen (create) (Japanese SNES port of an European computer game)
Seiken Densetsu III (choose)

Party-based, create or choose the main character (with choices for each gender) with NPCs that join:
Star Ocean: The Second Story (choose)
Sword of Mana (choose)
Romancing SaGa (choose) (all three Japan-only SNES games; 1 has a US-released PS2 remake)

Single-character, create or choose the character (either gender):
Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles (create)
Summon Night: Swordcraft Story (choose)
Summon Night: Swordcraft Story 2 (choose)
Children of Mana (choose)
Legend of Mana (choose and develop) (there are temporary NPC helpers)
Arcus Odyssey (Gauntlet-style, but isometric) (choose)
Survival Kids (choose and develop)

--

Party-based, with preset male main character and mixed-gender followers:
Final Fantasy I - create party, all classes except perhaps clerics are male
Final Fantasy II, III, IV, V, VII, VIII, IX, X, XII (well, I never played IV or II, or X-2 or XII or of course XIII or Versus, but I'm listing them all to be complete)
(FF Versus XIII - male main character, action-RPG or action game?)
Breath of Fire
Golden Sun
Golden Sun: The Lost Age
Riviera: The Promised Land
Lunar: The Silver Star
Lunar Legend (the second remake of Lunar: The Silver Star)
Lunar: Eternal Blue
Lunar: Dragon Song
Phantasy Star II
Phantasy Star III (don't own)
Phantasy Star IV: The End of the Millennium
Secret of Mana (action-RPG)
Evolution 2 (don't own)
Skies of Arcadia
Tales of Symphonia
Baten Kaitos
All Mario RPG/Paper Mario/Mario & Luigi games (own Paper Mario and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door, also played Mario RPG and Mario & Luigi 1 a bit)
Etc, etc, etc, etc. Hundreds more games go here.

Party-based with preset female main character and mixed-gender followers:
Final Fantasy VI, X-2, XIII (haven't played X-2 or, of course, XIII)
Lost Kingdoms (1 and 2, though I only have the first one)
Seal of Evil (Chinese PC game Diablo clone released in the US)
Phantasy Star I (don't own)
Persona 2: Eternal Punishment
Koudelka

Single-character, with preset male main character:
All Zelda games if they count
Illusion of Gaia
Final Fantasy Adventure (there are temporary NPC helpers)
Beyond Oasis
Alundra 2
Sword of Vermillion
Light Crusader
Wonder Boy in Monster Land (sidescrolling platformer with money and levelling up elements)
The Granstream Saga
Cadash (Genesis, no saving, side-scrolling platform/action with RPG elements) (two characters to choose from, both male. The TG-16 version evidently has four characters, with one of the others a female character, but not the Genesis one I have.)

single-character, with preset female main character:
Popful Mail (sidescrolling platformer with Wonder Boy-style RPG elements; three characters, can switch any time, main one is female)
Monster World IV (Japan-only, last game in the Wonder Boy/Monster World series) (don't own japan-only games)
LadyStalker (Japan-only SNES sequel to LandStalker)
Legend of the Ghost Lion (NES) (don't own)

... yeah, this post says absolutely nothing, being essentially a random listing of stuff I have or thought of. Blah. I'm posting it anyway so as to not waste the time it took to post it. (And it was worth writing because making lists is fun! And yes, I'm serious. :))

Well, I'm not going to bother replying to all that. I think I've done a pretty good job of tearing down your argument that virtually all Japanese games with stories are blatanly sexists.

Just the first post is what you should reply to. And I don't agree with you there. :)

I mean, sure, it's there to different degrees in different games for sure, but I don't know if I can think of a JRPG with a plot with none of it at all...

Part of the problem is no one bothered to define sexism before this debate began. Let's go from there.

First I'll just say FFX-2 is a bag of mixed nuts, like anything ripping off "Charlie's Angels" would be. On the one hand, they seem "empowered" enough but on the other hand experience has shown that it's apparently done in a way that is still pretty sexist. I guess the idea is that some guys get a similar kick out of seeing one of those women things as a hero as they do seeing a DOG DRESS AS A PERSON. Also the outfits are pretty frickin' obvious. At any rate I have no idea what happened between the 10 and 10-2, but apparently proper storyline just doesn't matter sometimes, so you get a character that is completely unlike her appearence in the first game. Anyway, I still played it and the game was fun in it's way.

Yeah yeah. Sometimes though I think some reviewers grasp at straws. The whole "getting tired" thing? I'm fairly sure there was no subtle hint there and it was just a gameplay element. After all there are plenty of other characters, some male, to play as in the game and they get tired too.

I also can't help but be suspicious of valkyrie games ever since Valkyrie Profile...

Well, at any rate unless I notice something really blatant at this point it just kinda ruins a game for me to just try and look for anything that might be offensive. Too much work for what sometimes is often just a stylistic choice and maybe open for misinterpretation. I get the points and all that, but at the end of the day I don't really want a political movement so much as I want to have fun in a game world however the authors may have seen fit. I've disagreed with messages before, and honestly the biggest issue is that "just believe in yourself" stuff they keep tossing out. The gameplay itself and my constant losses go totally against that in-game lesson, and I laugh about it every time. Anyway, I think what I'm saying is I'm "part of the problem" apparently.

Really though GR, you're missing the central fact that I stated earlier.

FACT: The status of women's rights in Japan are far, far behind where they are in the West. It's the way things are, and it's not changing very quickly. Videogames are a product of the culture that creates them just like everything else is. As a result, why should it be in any way surprising that Japanese videogames are a good bit more sexist than American games are, and that sexism shows up pervasively throughout them? It is of course present to some degree or another in many Western games too, since there are plenty of issues with sexism here, but it's less. I think that comparing that list of games I put up there should show how true that is... I mean, the female characters in Baldur's Gate versus most Japanese RPG female characters? Yeah.

Quote:Yeah yeah. Sometimes though I think some reviewers grasp at straws. The whole "getting tired" thing? I'm fairly sure there was no subtle hint there and it was just a gameplay element. After all there are plenty of other characters, some male, to play as in the game and they get tired too.

I agree that the 'getting tired' thing is stretching it a bit, but other than that the article has some good points.

And what's wrong with Valkyrie Profile? Haven't played them...

Quote:, but I don't know if I can think of a JRPG with a plot with none of it at all...

Valkyrie Profile, Star Ocean 2, Odin Sphere, Etrian Odyssey, Magical Starsign, Generation of Chaos, Magic Knight Rayearth, Ogre Battle,

That's a pretty good place to start.

What's a Magic Knight? Heard of all of those but that.

It's a magical girl RPG [SNES] and action game [Saturn].

A magical RPG "for girls" eh?

Anyway, you want real sexism, try Castlevania on for size. Specifically, the current "ruler of storyline canon" stating that Castlevania Legends has been BANISHED from the official storyline (the other two Gameboy games? The N64 game? They can stay, so it wasn't a quality issue). In his translated words, a girl can never be a Belmont. I say Sonia Belmont needs to be given her due. It's not like she doesn't fit in the continuity. She's basically after Lament of Innocence, inheriting that whip and being the first to challenge Dracula after he actually becomes the dark lord. Also, the first Belmont to actually win the respect of Alucard. But, apparently girls can only be magicians in a supporting role to this guy.

When you see what real sexism looks like, it sorta puts this other stuff in perspective.

Quote:Here is an excerpt from an interview that was conducted with Koji Igarashi in 2003:

"EGM: Would you make a Castlevania with a female main character?

IGA: Hm, there are difficult problems with that. As a gamer, I think that you become one with the character, and since Castlevania has a lot of male players, it's natural to have male characters. In Rondo of Blood, Maria was a silly, cute aside, but you still had Richter to make it serious. Plus, Mr. Hagihara (the director) had a playful sense of humor. He worked on Symphony as well, and he made the telescope part where, if you pan over to the left you can see a little mouse, and also where Alucard can sit down on the chair and prop his feet up.

EGM: After Tomb Raider, don't you think a female character is more acceptable?

IGA: It's possible I guess. Although, I purposefully left the Sonia Belmont character (from Castlevania Legends for GBC) out of the official Castlevania chronology. (laughs) Usually, the vampire storyline motifs, females tend to be sacrificed. It's easier to come up with weak, feminine characters. I'll think about it more in the future, though. It's tough to fit a female hero into the early history of Castlevania, but as you move into the modern day, females can then more easily become a hero."

I think I remember some hero... hmm... some sort of d'Arc?

Quote:A magical RPG "for girls" eh?

It's a "magical girl" RPG. Meaning that it features girls with magical powers.

For reference, this genre includes series like Cardcaptor Sakura and Sailor Moon.

Koji Igarashi does make two good points in that interview. One is that, in general, there have been very few female figures that are considered to be "heroes" in the same way as some of the male figures [i.e. strong, corageous, valiant, bashing bad guys with maces and so on], aside from a few very rare exceptions such as Jean d'Arc. In that sense, having a female character in a medieval setting is a bit unrealistic.

Also, his mention of females in the classic vampire stories are almost always either sacrifices to raise vampires to life or aas prey for said vampire. The vampire is then defeated, usually by a Van Helsing. Modern vampire stories have bucked this trend to some extent, however.

On the other hand, Castlevania is a game where you fight three-headed hellbeasts with a whip not some documentary on medieval hero figures. And all of the games have been made within the past fifteen years; they're not some 19th century story written in a time when a great many things were much different than they are today.

Meaning, his rationalizations are non-sensical at best.

Not to mention that there's no problem with an "exception to the rule" anyway. His points aren't really "good", they are just plain sexist.

There's truth in what he says, but applying those things to his games doesn't make any logical sense. And, yes, it's also sexist.

It's not even true for video games (and you were arguing that very same thing not but a few posts ago GR). I think there's someone by the name of SAMUS the guy should check up on. Besides, yes Jeanne d'Arc may have been an "exception", but so is Sonia Belmont, so it's STILL not really all that "historically accurate".

Why are you agreeing with me so loudly?!

I'm basically saying no aspect of what he says is all that accurate.

Historically speaking, there are very, very few female "action" heroes from more than 75+ years ago.

Speaking of the vampire genre, females are almost always portrayed as sacrifices or victims. Although this is a trend that he been changing within, say, the past 15-20 years.

He's right about those two things, but trying to apply these observations to his videogame doesn't work.

Quote:I know I mentioned one of the most obvious ones, that the female main character is the main healer of the group. Of course she also has other attack magic and stuff, but she is the strongest healer. I'm not saying that that's necessarily a bad thing (the "women as nurses" thing actually was somewhat progressive when it first came around in the mid 1800s), but by now it's certainly a much-used stereotype.

Yes, Rena is the healer of the group, but they are three optional female characters that are great fighters.

Quote:Etrian Odyssey? That's a throwback to '80s PC RPGs, which always had character creation, including gender selection.

I was speaking more specifically about Ren and Tlatchga.

Quote:Those others - haven't played, except for Ogre Battle 64 and that's not the one you mentioned.

Well, for your benefit I will explain.

Valkyrie Profile - You play as a female warrior who leads the souls of the fallen to Asgard in preperation for a great war.

Odin Sphere - The "level select screen" is about a little girl who reads various stories. One of the first stories is about the daughter of Odin who's a warrior and the leader of an army. There are other stories, but that's the only one I've seen so far.

Magical Starsign - You can play as a male of female character, I think the same goes for Children of Mana too.

Generation of Chaos - You can play as various countries and one of the main characters is a leader of a unit of knights, who also happens to be female.

Quote:Yes, Rena is the healer of the group, but they are three optional female characters that are great fighters.

And Rena actually has decent (not fantastic, but decent) normal fighting capabilities and has offensive spells as well, so at least she's not just a dedicated healer who has no other real purpose like SOME characters (see Lucia in Lunar DS for instance...). I played as Rena and spent most of my time doing attacks, not healing people. But she is still the healer.

Anyway, sure there are other female characters as well, but virtually all JRPGs with party-based game systems have some female characters in the party, and because of the design of the games (and the genre) they fight... and in some ways that is an element of greater equality. That doesn't mean that the themes and character designs that go against that should be ignored, though.

Quote:I was speaking more specifically about Ren and Tlatchga.

Ah. Sure, I guess, though the plot and other characters are an extremely small part of the game...

On another note... Tlachtga v. the Hexer cartoon... polar opposites... :D

Atlus Wrote:Hexer

Diary: I don't get it... The man at the Guild hasn't hired me.

I cursed him so he can't do anything but find me a party, so where's my party already!?

I thought not letting him eat or sleep until he finds me one would do the trick...

Hmm... It has been a week, I guess. I wonder if the man is still alive? Maybe I should have fed him, at least...

Great Rumbler Wrote:Well, for your benefit I will explain.

Valkyrie Profile - You play as a female warrior who leads the souls of the fallen to Asgard in preperation for a great war.

Odin Sphere - The "level select screen" is about a little girl who reads various stories. One of the first stories is about the daughter of Odin who's a warrior and the leader of an army. There are other stories, but that's the only one I've seen so far.

Magical Starsign - You can play as a male of female character, I think the same goes for Children of Mana too.

Generation of Chaos - You can play as various countries and one of the main characters is a leader of a unit of knights, who also happens to be female.

Know nothing about Generations of Chaos. What is that for anyway? PSP?

Odin Sphere has five characters and you play as all five. It's three of one gender and two of the other I believe, but I forget which is which. You don't choose characters, you just play as all five in order.

Valkyrie Profile... a game I'd like to play if it wasn't so ridiculously expensive... I have heard that it does a pretty iffy job with the Norse myths it's supposedly based off, but oh well. JRPGs usually are very, very loose with consistency to their source material... annoying, but true...

Magical Starsign -- yeah, it's an RPG where you choose between a male or female character. What I want to know though is if the plot or text changes between the two... is it a "silent protagonist" style where your choice doesn't matter, or does the main character actually talk and interact and does gender choice change anything? Though you don't really have to change MUCH even in a game with a talkative main character, as the Summon Night Swordcraft Story games show... :D (those games are so great... and often funny...)

Anyway, as for Sword of Mana, it does have character choice, but they are two completely different characters with somewhat different paths and plots, and the character you play as talks a lot. Which is fine, but they often don't hear eachother so you really need to play both sides in order to get the whole story... just like Star Ocean: The Second Story. There is just one ending of course, and an ending that was derived from the ending to FFA (though like much of the rest of the game the tone was changed dramatically from FFA's hopelessly depressing-seeming ending to a "somewhat sad but with a happy tone" ending in Sword. I liked it better the first time.), unlike Star Ocean 2, but still... I don't know. Maybe it's just that Sword wasn't actually that great of a game (not horrible, but not great) that's making me question it... :D Gender-wise I guess it does decently, faint praise as that is compared to its significant faults.

Oh yeah, and the heroine is the magician while the hero is the warrior, falling into the common stereotypes. Why not just let you choose your character development... they let you do that somewhat with the different classes to level up, after all... they just didn't go all the way.

I like the loose consistency. I mean it's originally fiction anyway. I prefer something more original. It sure beats 50 identical greek god stories.

I don't know, I think that the "lack of experience with the source material" thing might be part of it. I mean, when Japanese games are set in Japanese or Chinese mythology aren't they much more consistent than they are in Western, overall? And the same goes for most Western RPGs, just the other way around... there are definite exceptions of course, when a dev team really knows what it's doing and does its homework, but overall?

You are right though, games always take liberties from their source material. I mean, in games you need to fight like 10 or 100 times more than you would in just about any reference you'd be getting a story from, and in a very different way most of the time (not whole armies, wargames excepted, etc)...

A Black Falcon Wrote:I don't know, I think that the "lack of experience with the source material" thing might be part of it. I mean, when Japanese games are set in Japanese or Chinese mythology aren't they much more consistent than they are in Western, overall? And the same goes for most Western RPGs, just the other way around... there are definite exceptions of course, when a dev team really knows what it's doing and does its homework, but overall?

You are right though, games always take liberties from their source material. I mean, in games you need to fight like 10 or 100 times more than you would in just about any reference you'd be getting a story from, and in a very different way most of the time (not whole armies, wargames excepted, etc)...

But you are still acting like that's a BAD thing. I like them to take SO much liberty you barely recognize any original sources, if it can be said they were even there to begin with. For example, a lot of Final Fantasy summons have little more than a name in common with it's inspiration.

There's a big difference between simply using something as the name for a summon and basing your whole game's story off of something, though... there definitely should be a higher standard for the latter. Of course since it is a new story and not simply one of the old myths again it won't (and probably shouldn't) be precisely accurate, but they definitely could do a better job...

You want the references to be so buried you can't find them? Why? Are fantasy or sci-fi universes ever truly wholly unique or are they always partially influenced from past things? I don't think you can avoid influence... but given that, why would it be better to hide it? I mean, if you're doing an ancient Norse game, you should base it off of Norse mythology in some fashion. If it's some other world that just happens to use a lot of Norse words or whatever (see something like Riviera) that's somewhat different... I don't expect "accuracy" there where they were just trying to use the words in a different context. The same goes for summons and stuff. Oh, sure, I'd still like to see more attention to detail than many games do, but oh well...

I mean, if a game can actually create a cohesive, believable new fantasy universe then sure that's good, but often that goal is not achieved and you end up with something that seems half Earth mythology and half silly mess, plot and game universe wise... stuff like D&D gameworlds do a really good job of creating believable, consistent worlds, but Japanese RPGs are often far behind on this regard, with much more generic settings that mix lots of influences (or just specific ones) together without an obvious plan as to how the place actually works... this shows through in game systems too. Note how in most JRPGs the player party and enemies don't run on the same rules... they don't have to bother with magic points (most old JRPGs), or have only a two-stage charge bar instead of three (Riviera), or don't have two separate lines (Etrian Odyssey), etc, etc... Western RPGs, with few exceptions, just don't work that way. But if you don't have a clearly defined gameworld and mythology in the first place, why would you create a set of consistent gameplay rules for it?

SRPGs aren't like that at all of course, but they are strategy games. :)

(And yes, I know D&D isn't perfect. The "treasure economy" where you have normal people and cheap normal goods and then all the buried treasure your adventurers keep finding and expensive stuff for them to buy somehow coexisting is kind of silly, for instance. Why doesn't all that treasure completely unbalance D&D world economies? :D)

I'm fine with my guys and enemies running on different rules.

I love TendoCity.

*thread begins*

OB1: I'm really not a big fan of FF4.

*A few weeks later*

Everybody talking about female representation and sexism in gaming.

I love TendoCity.

Quote:I'm fine with my guys and enemies running on different rules.

While I consider it a mark of a less-developed game and a definite annoyance. Hide some displays if you want (PC RPGs don't always show how much health enemies have left, and you can't see their spellbooks, but you know that they are following the same rules as you are and are limited by that, though they're likely higher level if they're a boss, and races/character types can have special abilities), but apply the same rules to everyone. Console RPGs just don't do that very often.

One game I was playing recently again was Skies of Arcadia (Legends)... and there, the magic system is universal, but the skill system isn't -- while everyone casts the same spells from the same spell classes, and all units have an alignment (though most enemies can't change type, some can), special abilities that use just SP are character-specific. But can the enemies cast as much as they want (constrained just by the AI), or do they have (hidden) magic points and an SP bar like the player? There's no way to tell...

Sure there is ABF. Here's what you do. You basically "defend" and heal yourself for hours on end until you notice they aren't using those special abilities any more. Bam, you figured it out. I'm also pretty sure there are a number of game beastiaries out there you can peruse if you wish.

ABF, I have to say you have some interesting ideas on what it takes to get you drawn into a game. World wide consistancy is interesting, but EVERY game doing that, ALWAYS better? No, I'd have to say I disagree with that. I like it when I really am not sure what sort of combat style I might be coming up against next. Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy a battle system that has internal consistancy too (Pokemon, which is about as simple as it gets, and yet upon further playing I've stumbled into some dark depths of sheer DEEP STRATEGY the game actually has to offer, I mean seriously, it's frightening), but I don't think a game is WORSE for not doing it, I just think it's an alternate style of doing things.

EdenMaster Wrote:I love TendoCity.

*thread begins*

OB1: I'm really not a big fan of FF4.

*A few weeks later*

Everybody talking about female representation and sexism in gaming.

I love TendoCity.

That's only half the story, EM!

Here's the completely breakdown of this thread's course:

-OB1 hates turn-based RPGs
-Everyone else disagrees
-Debate breaks out on whether turn-based should be replaced with realtime
-FFIV Remake on the DS?
-Famitsu pirate discussion
-Lazy posts hentai
-Discussion about Japan's bizarre tastes begins
-Doki Doki Majo Shinpan
-Doshin the Giant/The Dream of the Fisherman's Wife
-More Witch Toucher discussion
-ABF makes blanket statement about Japanese games
-Discussion of sexism in Japanese games
-Discussion of borrowed mythologies in Japanese games
-Discussion of the often off-topic nature of TC threads

Great Rumbler Wrote:-OB1 hates turn-based RPGs
-Everyone else disagrees
-Debate breaks out on whether turn-based should be replaced with realtime
-FFIV Remake on the DS?
-Famitsu pirate discussion
-Lazy posts hentai
-Discussion about Japan's bizarre tastes begins
-Doki Doki Majo Shinpan
-Doshin the Giant/The Dream of the Fisherman's Wife
-More Witch Toucher discussion
-ABF makes blanket statement about Japanese games
-Discussion of sexism in Japanese games
-Discussion of borrowed mythologies in Japanese games
-Discussion of the often off-topic nature of TC threads

And in only three pages, too! Just about every one of those could be a full thread of its own... :)

... though it is annoying how I write posts and then most of what I say isn't replied to... :( (particularly the longer posts)

Dark Jaguar Wrote:Sure there is ABF. Here's what you do. You basically "defend" and heal yourself for hours on end until you notice they aren't using those special abilities any more. Bam, you figured it out. I'm also pretty sure there are a number of game beastiaries out there you can peruse if you wish.

My suspicion would be that in Skies the enemies don't have to deal with SP or MP and just have AI that tells them when to use those skills... it is simpler to program that way, for sure, after all. Less complex and engaging, but simpler.

Quote:ABF, I have to say you have some interesting ideas on what it takes to get you drawn into a game. World wide consistancy is interesting, but EVERY game doing that, ALWAYS better? No, I'd have to say I disagree with that. I like it when I really am not sure what sort of combat style I might be coming up against next. Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy a battle system that has internal consistancy too (Pokemon, which is about as simple as it gets, and yet upon further playing I've stumbled into some dark depths of sheer DEEP STRATEGY the game actually has to offer, I mean seriously, it's frightening), but I don't think a game is WORSE for not doing it, I just think it's an alternate style of doing things.

Hmm... you're being a bit confusing there... :) What do you mean that you like not being sure about the combat system? That you like hidden, undocumented features and subsystems like many Japanese RPGs, strategy games, fighting games, etc love to put in? That stuff annoys me so much... I want to KNOW what the game system is. I don't want to have to go read an FAQ to just know what kinds of basic moves I can make, whether the game has some kind of attraction system between characters, some hidden size or damage system, whatever... Western games definitely do this sometimes too (such as Starcraft and its whole unit size and damage type thing which is never shown in the game itself), but it's much, MUCH worse in Japanese games, and that's not a good thing. Complexity? Sure, but TELL ME what that complexity is. I mean... there are a lot of games that are pretty much completely unplayable without FAQs thanks to how pretty much the whole game system is hidden, and that's a real pain.

There definitely are different standards for different genres, though. I was talking specifically about RPGs. Looking more broadly, across genres, it's a bit different... while internal consistency is good, in some genres or game styles it is either impossible or if implemented would make a games so frustrating that it would be (or is) no fun at all... I don't know, a shooter (shmup or run and gun) where if you got hit once it'd be game over or something... complete internal consistency works better some places than others. :) A few genres are consistent everywhere, most of the time -- puzzle games, strategy games (though Japanese games love those hidden or obscured gameplay systems I was referring to), fighting games, sports games...

Okay let me put it this way. Knowing everything I'm going to encounter in advance is interesting, ala a strategy game for example, but on the other hand, for the sheer thrill of adventure, I like not knowing what's coming up or having to revise my knowledge of how the world works.

To put it another way, I like needing to apply the scientific method to discover the inner workings of the world I'm in. Our universe is basically one big undocumented system, for example, and you need to poke and prod to get some understanding of what's going on. Of course the difference is in a game you can peel back the veil of reality and take a look at some hex to sorta "cheat" and figure out how it all works.

All that said, internal consistancy is fun too, and even I have my limits and annoyances for lack of consistancy in a game that otherwise DOES go for the internal consistancy style. Here's an example. Super Smash Bros. On the one hand, I have no problem with impossible things like the Master Hand or the crazy rules that apply in those missions. Those are pretty much defined as "irregular events" in and of themselves and I love them all for doing weird things you can't do. HOWEVER, that stops with me playing a standard VS match against CPU opponents, normal rules. If I suddenly saw the AI doing stuff that is outright physically impossible, I'd be frustrated. Mind you, they would pretty much have to to have a chance of beating someone that's basically figured out exactly how those bots will react in any given situation, but again, in those situations, I want consistancy. Soul Calibur's adventure modes as opposed to standard arcade modes are another example of where I'll welcome inconsistancy on one hand and be upset about it in another. Actually I can think of a number of fighting games where AI can pull off impossible combinations of moves back to back, or with odd timing, if only because the AI doesn't actually input the button codes but just uses the move directly (it should have to go through the internal code motions of inputting the button codes I'd say, not that hard to program really as any controller input can be fed into that same module from another module instead).

Hmm, another example is those Pokemon Stadium games, and their Round 2 modes specifically. Pokemon is all about internal consistancy. Everything plays by the same rules (AI just like humans can run out of "PP" for moves and be reduced to struggling). However, Round 2, which is harder anyway due to superior move sets, better AI scripts and higher stats on the pokemon you face (all still attainable through legitimate means for you the player), gets harder for one very big annoying and stupid reason. Namely, the AI has "fixed dice". In round 2, anything with random effects is weighted in the AI's favor. So, that move that instant kills but only hits 1 in 5 times suddenly starts working (for the AI) 3 in 5 times. THIS is an example of internal inconsistancy I can't stand. It's a cheap way to increase difficulty to simply allow the computer to do stuff that's impossible. Actually Perfect Dark had a similar thing with it's "Dark Sims". While Perfect Sims were as good as they could get the AI without cheating, Dark Sims just plain cheat. They have incredibly high accuracy on guns that fire in a sporadic pattern (it's impossible for a human player to get perfect strings of headshots at a distance with a frickin' reaper, because the shots go pretty much everywhere), and also, most notably, they can move at insane and impossible speeds, but only when you aren't looking. Here, I'll accept it but only because it's just an option for multiplayer (and special "unusual rules" missions, which already defy a lot of rule sets anyway) and not how the bots ALWAYS work.

So, I have standards, but I still want them to keep making games that lack this internal consistancy for the fun they prodive as well.

I once watched a Darksim get shot 7 times in the head and fire a few hundred rounds without reloading, move through walls and the best one: Fell off a cliff, DIED and warped back up.

Something that all sims can do that human players cant is open doors while facing the opposite direction. It would have been a great move to pull off for humans but we get no such thing. I swear i'll know the dynamics of the physics and controller subtleties until i'm old and grey.

I'm gonna miss PD. I hope it's rebirthed on DS or the Wii VC because there's tons of people who still dont know about it, even after all these years its still got the best FPS multiplayer of any console release. Timesplitters series is close but it feels more like a party game most of the time.

....


........


*picks nose*

I'd love to see Rare do it up right in the Xbox Arcade. They don't even need to do much with the graphics (well, just a small thing I'd like to see, animated mouth textures when they talk at the very least, the whole Power Rangers thing those old N64 and PS1 games did was a little jarring). All I ask is the elimination of all slowdown (easy enough), the game adapted to using two analog sticks (for precise movement and camera at once), and a fully featured online play mode.