... Panzer Dragoon Orta finally supported. And some 2d fighting games!
http://kotaku.com/gaming/backward-compat...253729.php
Quote: * Avatar: The Last Airbender
* Breakdown
* Call of Duty 2: Big Red One
* Call of Duty 3
* Cars
* Crash Bandicoot 5: Wrath of Cortex
* Dai Senryaku VII: Modern Military Tactics
* FIFA Soccer 2007
* Full Spectrum Warrior
* Guilty Gear Isuka
* JSRF: Jet Set Radio Future
* MechAssault 2: Lone Wolf
* Mercenaries
* NASCAR 2006: Total Team Control
* NFL Fever 2004
* Oddworld: Munch's Oddysee
* Panzer Dragoon ORTA
* Phantom Dust
* Reservoir Dogs
* Return To Castle Wolfenstein
* RugbyLeague 2
* Sonic Riders
* Soul Calibur 2
* Star Wars Republic Commando
* Street Fighter Anniversary Collection
* The King of Fighters Neowave
* The King of Fighters 2002 & 2003
* Tiger Woods PGA TOUR 07
* Tony Hawk's Underground
* Ultra Bust-A-Move
* Unreal Championship 2: The Liandri Conflict
* Xiaolin Showdown
Yay! That's Panzer Dragoon Orta and Street Fighter Anniversery I can add to the list. Oh, interesting note about Street Fighter. While I've yet to hear anything about SF3, it appears they are releasing something far superior to the last release of Turbo on XBox Arcade. It'll basically be Super Turbo only with completely redone visuals and maybe a few other extras (Akuma actually usable without a silly button code and maybe even balanced instead of overpowered?). So long as they follow the same route as Anniversery and basically include all the versions of all the characters (as well as the sound tracks from all versions to select from and videos of all intros and ending credits across the versions), this'll be the version to get, sans SF3 and that animated movie.
That said, we have a few things they still need to do. First of all, I'll need to unlock the first Panzer Dragoon to make sure they also got the "emulator within an emulator" thing with that game working exactly as it should. Speaking of, Prince of Persia's backwards compatibility really needs to be updated so that the old POP games included as unlockables in that game will also run on the 360. Further, allow us to move old XBox saves to the memory card from the hard disk, and back. On a nitpick here, I'll also add they really don't need to bother selecting their own custom icons for the saves when seen on the 360. Those save files have their own icon data they could just as easily use. It's just I've noticed that sometimes they really don't even bother and there are iconless saves in there. Just add the ability to read those icons already in the save files to the dashboard.
Anyway, there's still games they need to add. They put Mechassault 2 in, now add just the first one. They also need to make the 2nd and 3rd Prince of Persia games work. Also, Silent Hill 2 (they already have 4) and Lord of the Rings: The Third Age (the only LOTR game worth playing).
Blinx I think also needs to be added, and Time Splitters 2, and one more 2D fighter in the form of Marvel vs Capcom 2. Yep, that would make for the rest of my original XBox games fully compatible.
That's a great start for the 2d fighting games, but there are more still not supported: Guilty Gear X2 #Reload, Samurai Shodown V, SNK vs. Capcom: SVCCHAOS, Capcom vs SNK 2, Marvel vs. Capcom 2, Capcom Fighting Evolution... still though, before this update the thing supported NO 2d fighting games, so compared to that, it's a huge improvement. Still, the rest of those games deserve support too.
Quote:. Further, allow us to move old XBox saves to the memory card from the hard disk, and back.
If they haven't allowed this so far, they're never going to, I think.
Quote:Oh, interesting note about Street Fighter. While I've yet to hear anything about SF3, it appears they are releasing something far superior to the last release of Turbo on XBox Arcade. It'll basically be Super Turbo only with completely redone visuals and maybe a few other extras (Akuma actually usable without a silly button code and maybe even balanced instead of overpowered?). So long as they follow the same route as Anniversery and basically include all the versions of all the characters (as well as the sound tracks from all versions to select from and videos of all intros and ending credits across the versions), this'll be the version to get, sans SF3 and that animated movie.
Yeah, a redone version of Super Turbo is coming to XBLA. More importantly though, XBLA is also getting Puzzle Fighter, also with redone graphics! Best puzzle game ever... :)
Advent Rising, where are yoooouuuu?
Quote:JSRF: Jet Set Radio Future
Unreal Championship 2: The Liandri Conflict
Soul Calibur 2
Panzer Dragoon ORTA
Fantastic update. It's about time UC2 and SC2 made it on there. I think only one of my games is missing from the BC list now, Riddick.
Don't like 2d fighting games, Geno?
Actually SC2 was added in the update before this one. This update only adds to that old update because apparently there were some issues.
A Black Falcon Wrote:Don't like 2d fighting games, Geno?
Geno's not in this conversation, and how can anyone go back to 2d fighting after Soul Calibur? I sure can't.
Soul Calibur II is a good game, but 2d fighting games are better. They're more technical and require more actual skill to play... in Soul Calibur (or most 3d fighting games) it just doesn't feel like as much skill is actually required. So yes... despite the fact that Soul Calibur II is a good game, it most definitely did not get me to give up on traditional 2d fighting games. Actually, I'd say that it's likely that Capcom vs SNK 2 is one of my most-played GC games over the years... I've certainly played it a lot more than Soul Calibur 2 or SSBM. (I have played a good bit of SSMB multiplayer, but I haven't really bothered with the singleplayer game at all (it's not very good), while I kept playing CvS2 for a long time, up to and including this year... and as for Soul Calibur 2, I played it until I unlocked everything (which didn't take long, sadly; I had fun while it lasted), but after that mostly stopped. Once in a while I'll put it in in single player mode, but not that often.
Marvel Super Heroes on the Saturn is a really awesome game. Just thought I'd inject that into the conversation.
Quote:Geno's not in this conversation,
I meant Paco, actually... how did I mess that up... oh well.
Quote:Marvel Super Heroes on the Saturn is a really awesome game. Just thought I'd inject that into the conversation.
CvS2 has SNK characters in it though, which is awesome, because I love SNK's fighting games, and characters... :)
There's two kinds of fighting games. There are the games with an in depth explanation of the story, as found in cut scenes and very long info panels in special "character profile" menus. Then, there are games that only have a rough hint of what might be a story with NO explanation on what's going on, at all.
Soul Caliber 2 is of the former. I know exactly what's going on in that story.
Marvel vs Capcom 2 is the latter. I think there's some sort of orb and for some reason everyone was at peace on an airship at the end but I haven't the slightest idea what's going on or how I'm expected to figure it out. I understand King of Fighters is the same way, but somehow, some way, the fans have put together very intricate stories for the characters and slapped it all on Wikipedia.
So what's going on? Do they have some hidden document on their main web sites explaining all this stuff or what?
I don't think that the Versus games really have stories, actually, beyond 'stuff happened and then somehow characters from different universes and periods of history met for a tournament with some secret guy behind it all that is the real hidden final boss' or whatever that almost every fighting game ever uses for its story... but yes, you are right that there are two kinds of fighting game plots. SNK almost always does the 'you have to look it up elsewhere' style. Namco does the 'tell you in game' style. Capcom... they often have simpler stories, I'd say, but there is usually some material only available outside of the game.
Quote:So what's going on? Do they have some hidden document on their main web sites explaining all this stuff or what?
It's probably something available only in Japanese or something... I don't know where those character stories and backstories you find in places like SNK game FAQs on Game FAQs come from either, really, though I'm sure that they are official...
For example MvC2 apparently has an actual backstory for the final boss "Abyss", involving concentrated decay destroying all life to return the earth to a natural state of lifelessness like all the other planets, or something, and everyone is working more or less together to stop it, also there's a legend of a treasure or something. BUT, that's not in any way to be found in the game. You know, giving me mere HINTS of a deeper story without any explanation can sometimes be worse than not even giving me a story at all.
You might be right at that "available only in Japan" stuff. I bet they have all sorts of Perfect Works guides there. That's the thing though. I wish they'd put all that story data in the game itself, because otherwise I'm never going to see it.
Okay I beat Orta just to test something (and hey, it's a fun game). Apparently no, the original Panzer Dragoon wasn't included in the BC work. When I try to load it, I get a screen of colors and then it goes back to the game's menu.
There's also an issue that's been around for a while. The BC, for a LOT of games, seems to have some issue with playing FMVs (they skip a little). Not sure what's going on there but it needs to be fixed.
Quote:For example MvC2 apparently has an actual backstory for the final boss "Abyss", involving concentrated decay destroying all life to return the earth to a natural state of lifelessness like all the other planets, or something, and everyone is working more or less together to stop it, also there's a legend of a treasure or something. BUT, that's not in any way to be found in the game. You know, giving me mere HINTS of a deeper story without any explanation can sometimes be worse than not even giving me a story at all.
You might be right at that "available only in Japan" stuff. I bet they have all sorts of Perfect Works guides there. That's the thing though. I wish they'd put all that story data in the game itself, because otherwise I'm never going to see it.
Yeah, I just doubt that they bother to release most of that stuff officially in English. Hey, who really cares about the story anyway, right? :(
If you think more strategy is involved with 2D fighters than 3D, then I must kindly laugh at you. Please do not be offended.
There. Now then, I wont get too in depth into this, so I'll just give you the main reason: 3d implies more than 2 directions. 2d fighters you can go forward or backward. Thats it. The strategy of 3d fighting games lies in the ability to not only block, but EVADE oncoming attacks by sidestepping. Not only that, but movesets can be expanded without having 13-button combos, but adding moves available only when moving sideways, throws depending on where your enemy is facing. Sure, SC has its fair shor of 13-button combos as well, but not nearly as much :D.
I can't imagine how you think a game like Street Fighter could be more strategic than Soul Calibur.
If you believe what you're saying there, EM, you sure haven't spent much time playing 2d fighting games (other than SSB), now have you...
I've played some in my time, and I still stand by my statement.
Now is the part where I wait for your rebuttal. You, of all people, should know how this works :D.
Surprised I didn't see this before.
Hey EM, I'm not about to enter the "2d vs 3d" debate here but I'm forced to criticize your math.
Two directions, forwards and backwards and that's it is technically 1D, not 2D. 2D has 4 directions, up and down as well as forwards and backwards. 3D means 6 directions. As an added note, I'll say that 2D makes a lot more use of that up/down axis than 3D games tend to. I'd say it's an issue of personal taste myself. I've seen some pretty intense layers of depth in even Super Smash Brothers, and certainly Guilty Gear (what few games I have seen), and I've also seen some amazing strategy in Soul Calibur and Virtua Fighter. Of course it also takes a just plain good game. King of the Monsters, for example, lacks a LOT in depth.
Heh, should have replied to that one a while back... oh well. :)
Quote:Two directions, forwards and backwards and that's it is technically 1D, not 2D. 2D has 4 directions, up and down as well as forwards and backwards. 3D means 6 directions. As an added note, I'll say that 2D makes a lot more use of that up/down axis than 3D games tend to. I'd say it's an issue of personal taste myself. I've seen some pretty intense layers of depth in even Super Smash Brothers, and certainly Guilty Gear (what few games I have seen), and I've also seen some amazing strategy in Soul Calibur and Virtua Fighter. Of course it also takes a just plain good game. King of the Monsters, for example, lacks a LOT in depth.
King of the Monsters is kind of entertaining, but isn't a fighting game. It's really a beat 'em up/wrestling thing...
Anyway, you're absolutely right: 3d fighting games almost never use the vertical axis much at all. 2d fighting games do, a lot. It's a huge difference, and adds a lot more strategy to the 2d titles than you'd have if they were done in a 3d style and you couldn't really jump...
I've played a good amount of both 2d and 3d fighting games, and the 2d ones are, as I said, unquestionably more complex. It's much, much easier for a new player to win at Soul Calibur than at Guilty Gear or Capcom vs SNK 2 (or many other games). Much, much easier. And other 3d fighting games are no different. I'd maybe make a potential exception for Virtua Fighter because I've heard that those have more depth but haven't played them enough to say one way or another, but based on the ones I have... as I said, the difference is obvious.
3d fighting games don't just drop jumping. They also mostly drop complex special moves. Oh, sure, there are still moves, and more of them usually, but they're not the same kinds of special moves you find in a good 2d fighting game... 2d fighting games are about skill, but they're also about learning the moves. 3d fighting games simplify that greatly.
As for moves in different directions and stuff, 3d fighting games try to pretend that they have massive movelists by listing everything as a "special" move, but if you cut it down to just the kind of moves that a 2d fighting game would consider special moves, you're left with very few... 2d fighting games have plenty of normal moves and combos and stuff too, but those aren't listed in the ingame move lists (for games that even have one), because they're not really special.
I think moves SHOULD be easy to learn and pull off though. I don'tlike those "rotate the d-pad twice then press kick punch chop it's all in the mind". That's one thing about Super Smash Brothers. They go the distance to simplify controls as much as they can. A game that's difficult to master just because you can't pull off, or even remember, how to do your character's moves has substituted convolusion for actual depth.
It's only hard until you get used to doing the motions, though. SSB is fun and all, but in the end I'd rather play a real 2d fighting game... I've spent virtually no time playing SSB in single player mode (okay, a little bit with SSB and then a little but even less with SSBM, but not much), while I've spent many hours with 2d fighting game such as KOF (series), Samurai Shodown (series), The Last Blade 2, Capcom vs SNK 2 EO, SFII variants, etc...
What are you doing playing SSB in single player mode? I don't play ANY fighting game in single player mode beyond what I need to do to unlock everything. After that I exclusively play in multiplayer.
How exactly do you play multiplayer SSB with no one else around? :)
... when I'm at school and stuff I do end up playing multiplayer SSB every so often, but that's mostly because other people want to. If they wanted to play traditional fighting games I'd play those instead (and would prefer to; most people just aren't good at them... :bummed:)...
CvS2 EO is probably my most-played Gamecube game, and for good reason.
Well they updated the BC list again. Two o' dems are games I actually own, so there's that.
Aside from Guilty Gear X2, they added another fighting game (one I actually have) which is Marvel vs Capcom 2. Nice! I should try it right now! Ooh, the FMVs aren't skipping! This is great an... what? What is this supposed to be?
Yes, they have it "working" but the characters in combat (basically all the sprites) are all flickery and corrupted image looking. Every now and then, in fact, a character will kinda go invisible for a split second, which is all it takes in these sorts of games to throw you off. Possibly related to this (as in same cause), the text on everything has a bunch of dirty looking visual artifacts. This will not stand. They better update this one next time around.
The other game I have they added works far better, at least in so far as I've been able to test. They finally added Silent Hill 2 (they've had 4 working for a while now, though they have yet to fix the mildly skipping FMVs in that one). No major issues, but I think that the models seem to move a little more jumpy than I remember. I'll need to play the game again on the original XBox to be sure. They updated a few already compatible games to fix some bugs this time around, but none I own.
Of note to GR, they have Morrowind working now (don't have it myself). Not sure if it's just the original version or the game of the year version or both. You can test and tell me. Not because I can actually use the data, I just like collecting information.
Still no Advent Rising. :(
Ooh, more 2d fighting games? Guilty Gear X2 #Reload is great... (on that note Guilty Gear X2 whatever (the third edition of Guilty Gear X2, the one after Reload...) is coming to the Wii so that matters less... :)
Still only two SNK games though (KOF '02/'03 and KOF NeoWave). Oh well, it's not like I have a 360. Still, it would be nice to see more of them...
Yes, Marvel Vs Capcom 2 is "supported" but as I said, it's barely so. It looks so amateurish. It does play at full speed, but the sprites are all totally corrupted. The engine may have something to do with it. It's 2D sprites over 3D rendered backgrounds. The 3D elements display just fine.
And that doesn't help much when the only part of the game that really matters are the 2d sprites. :)
Well duh. I was giving a factual description, not a value judgement. If you want a value judgement, I'd say the emulation of this game sucks.
http://www.joystiq.com/2007/11/27/xbox-3...ty-update/
Looks like they are still working on backwards compatibility. Good. I had wondered if they had just silently scrapped the project.
GR, no Advent Rising and no Riddick it seems.
From my own personal list? They added the first Blinx game and Third Age (the only good Lord of the Rings game, except the SNES one mind you, that was a fun one). Still no support for the other two Prince of Persia games, or Mech Assault 1, or Time Splitters 2, but they're getting there. I'll have to test later to see if they've updated the support for other titles like Marvel vs Capcom 2.
Okay did a little testing. First of all, MVC2's major issues? Totally unresolved. Now don't get me wrong, playable is the first objective, then cosmetic issues. Also, releasing an incomplete emulation is better than nothing. However, I'd have thought that in the past few months they would have been able to iron out the sprite corruption issue. Ehhh you'll get 'em next time right?
Lord of the Rings Third Age works pretty well, but at random intervals the ENTIRE background (not affecting things like chests, save points, and the main character) flashes completely white a few times and then stops. Happens often enough to be pretty distracting actually. There's also some slowdown in a few in-game cutscenes that throws off the lip synching for the rest of the cutscene. Other than that, good job. This game actually uses the original save file icons. Well, it's about time. They really don't need to waste any effort coming up with their own icons for these after all. Just use what's already in the save file and it'll work great.
Blinx works just fine. Haven't found an issue with it at all from what I've played. Well, there's one. If you select "demos" from the title screen the game crashes back to the 360 interface. Well, the fact is demo menus have been disabled in almost all these emulated games. I played one where it wasn't and clearly the profile just wasn't meant to play those demos because the slowdown was terrible. Oddly though other than that the demos didn't have any major cosmetic issues... those particular games must not have really did anything weird with the hardware. It is a little weird that it would just crash like that though. I mean they could have disabled the menu option outright. In Halo the option was literally dummied out so it didn't even appear and you looped through 3 menu options (so apparently they can hex edit game features via the emulator, so that's neat). In another game I forget the option is still there but selecting it just flashes the screen and you return back to the menu like it was reloading after you quit the demo loader. In this one, it crashes it. A little odd... Well, I just need to avoid that option, but really if they can dummy out stuff like that in 3rd party games (Halo of course wasn't 3rd party so don't bother pointing that out, I was clearly talking about the OTHER game I mentioned above, you people...), a 1st party game like Blinx shouldn't be an issue.
I didn't bother checking further after testing MVC2, but all things considering I very much doubt they fixed issues with any of the other games, such as emulated games in Prince of Persia and Panzer Dragoon Orta working.
Still no Advent Rising. :(
Or 2d fighting game updates.
After MVC2's unresolved graphical issues (seriously, it actually affects gameplay if the projectiles are invisible half the time), maybe they are a little shy about it?
Oh yes, I thought I'd rate the BC of the three systems as it stands right now.
Top of the list is the Wii. I mean, that's obvious. They may be bottom of the barrel in online support, but their BC is top notch. It's easy to see why. The Wii is basically just a Gamecube with improved specs. They even went as far as to include Gamecube controller and memory card ports, so it's not just fully compatible with every Gamecube game out there, it is fully compatible with every Gamecube accessory there is. The only things it can't do are use the Gameboy Player (which isn't so much a Gamecube incompatibility as it is as Gameboy incompatibility, but that's fine), and use the online adapters (moden and broadband). That latter one doesn't matter as the Wii has it's own built in online support, in the form of Wifi. Sure the LAN adapter needs to be bought seperatly, but pretty much everyone should have a Wifi supporting router by now. Really the only thing I can note is the lack of LAN mode in games that supported it. Mario Kart Double Dash, namely, and for some Phantasy Star Online. This could be easily fixed with an update to emulate that device using the Wii's Wifi/LAN adapter to do the job of the old broadband adapter (as for the moden, that would take some more clever fakes, but the only game that supports it also supports broadband so it's not needed at all). The only issue is that I wonder if the Gamecube is just hardcoded support outright and can't be modified via firmware in any way. That said, short of one small feature, Wii has the best BC right now.
PS3 is next in line, or to be more accurate, the original models. Aside from running games for two generations, the first model did it all natively. They had a good thing going, until they butchered it by removing PS2 chips down the line to reduce themselves to emulation for BC. The BC list is growing fairly fast compaired to the 360, but it still isn't nearly what the first model had. The big issue is hardware compatibility. Here's the info I've been able to get on this one. First, it doesn't have the old memory card ports. To transfer saves, one must get a seperate adapter and copy it all in there. That works fine for everything except the PocketStation. From what I've read, it apparently does detect it plugged in as a pocket station, with it's own icon and everything, but since that adapter itself can't be assigned to a memory card port, the problem is the games won't detect the "virtual memory card" as a pocket station. This could be fixed with a simple flag that tells all games that all virtual memory cards are pocket stations. Since that device was compatible with all games, that shouldn't pose a problem. There's still the issue of moving those save files for pocket station games back and forth though. It's also doubtful they will ever include a pocketstation emulator in either the PS3 or PSP (though I would assume such an emulator would be easy to code). The bigger issue though is the total lack of peripheral support. At least, officially. It seems that 3rd party companies have made special USB adapters for PS2/PS1 style controller things, to use the dance pads or guitars or light guns or whatever. Since the PS3 controllers can be hooked up via USB, the device just uses that method to pretend it's a PS3 controller, and when the PS2 or PS1 game takes over it just detects the addon controller for what it is and uses it that way. The problem they had for a while was that PS2 games apparently need you to press this "home" button on the controller when they start up. That seems a little odd anyway. One other solution would be adding emulation for modern controllers to be remapped to PS2 and PS1 game equivalents. They already do this with the PS3 controller anyway. So for example USB dance pads could be emulated to pretend to be the old PS2 dance pads. The last thing to note is while there is an addon download that lets PS2 games use the PS3's hard disk, it doesn't apparently work with all the games that can use it. FFXI and SOCOM 2 do, but Resident Evil Outbreak 1 and 2 apparently aren't supported. They are getting closer to total support, but the big issue is removing that important hardware needed for total compatibility. Sure they have the cheaper model everyone that could get a 360 can now afford, but people buying one and realizing only later that they can't play their PS2 games at all on it are going to be a little upset. I'm curious about the return rates of these new and improved sales... In terms of rumble, one can either use that 3rd party addon connector to use a PS2/PS1 controller or get one of those new rumble supporting PS3 controllers coming out soon.
Now the 360 is trying, I'll give them that, but they certainly have a lot of work cut out for them. They are steadily increasing the number of games one can play, and they are within reach of being able to emulate all the games that really matter (the good titles basically, both exclusives and ones that were ported to all 3 systems last gen), but they have a number of issues. On the one hand, they do one thing the other two don't, which is actually improve a small handful of games with higher resolution output and antialiasing applied. Some even have greater draw distances and less slowdown or load times. Besides that, most are emulated pretty much without error. However, a decent chunk of the emulated games are NOT flawless. A number have a couple errors in them, ranging from barely noticable to making the game almost unplayable. After finalizing the list of at least the games people are asking for, they really need to run back through that list and fix all the problems. One problem that recurs throughout all the games is that initial skipping when an original game is starting up, which according to MS is due to the initial spooling of the game's data to the hard disk. I can accept that, but I will note the original XBox did that spooling too but without cutting into the game. My suggestion is to go ahead and do the spooling before running the game. The initial startup will take a few seconds longer but it'll be smooth from then on. The second note is, just like the PS3, there's no peripheral support. Again a lot of this could be done by emulating modern USB equivilants to pretend to be the old controllers. The one controller they couldn't do this with is that big mech console thing from Steel Battalion. Short of just making a modern remake of that game, I don't see that one ever being properly emulated on the 360. One other thing to note is the 360 has no official method for transferring saved data. There's a number of unofficial methods, but they range from being not very effective (the ones that just let you connect the original system's memory cards won't be able to transfer a large number of saves for various reasons) to being downright impracticle for the average user (hacking the system with a mod chip to install custom firmware (kicking you off of Live on that system forever) and then transferring all the saved data to the 360 through another purchased addon). The best solution would be a software supported one, where the original and 360 could link up through added options in the firmware to transfer saved data between them.
The only thing to add to that is that the new $400, 40GB PS3s have no PS2 backwards compatibility at all... only the 80GB has software backwards compatibility. I think the 40GBs are PS1 game compatible, though, for some reason.
Yeah I think I mentioned that in passing there. I think whatever hardware is needed to play PS1 games is just a LOT cheaper is all. I mean before they stopped selling them altogether the PS1's were being sold for $50, and they never once cut out support from the PS2. Even the PSP is similar enough to the PS2 (which was similar in the important ways to the PS1) that it can play PS1 games.
Oh, I've checked some things out and there are actually a few compatibility problems with some PS1 games, on all system models. Silent Hill apparently suffers from a very annoying tone playing whenever an enemy makes the sound they make when they are hurt. Very few issues all around though.
Ah, you do in passing near the end of the PS3 segment, but not with any details...
I do think it's pretty odd that PS1 emulation is in the 40GB models but not PS2 emulation.