Tendo City

http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/793/7...ids_1.html

This is going to be one of the greatest games ever made, I say that with all confidence.

Irrational is amazing, so yeah, it has the potential to be just that...

The graphics are just flat out amazing, but imo there's nothing new there.

Making enemy types fight eachother; that's been done since the first Turok on N64. Variables like adding a speed boost has also been done to death. All in all it feels like any other FPS I ever played. The Captain Nemo 1940's Future Tech is cool so the art style and graphics take home the Oscar but everything else just seemed blah to me. The actual shooting and enemy interaction mechanic reminded me of survival horror type gameplay where ammo and health is scarce, very Condemned (sega). I believe we could chalk Bioshock up as an FPA, so kudos to them. But the gameplay comes off feeling bland.

imo it needs imaginative weapons; A good FPS or FPA takes each weapon type in to consideration. You have a weapon that generates alot of heat, so the enemy shot by it acts like its burning to death, sets on fire, etc. The weapon is electricity based so the enemy gets shocked and convulses. I mean here we have a game where water is everywhere, electricty would make a great dynamic such as luring enemies on to the water and then electrifying the water, or how about dip in to a little James Cameron and add a mechanic where you get a device that controls and manipulates water, making watery walls or the Abyssian water tentacle to be used as a spy to steal items. Ever seen those drills that use high pressure water cannons? They cut through solid steel, how cool would it be to have a high pressured water cannon that uses sea water to give you short bursts of laser-esque offensive capabilities that at long range pushes the enemy back and at short range can litteraly slice them up dynamically.

I dunno, I guess it feels like they put all this imagination in the art style and didn't save any for the gameplay, which is a typical hallway FPS akin to Doom. But with REALLY nice graphics and interactive environments.

I agree with you on most of those points lazy but I think you may have missed one aspect I was noticing. It may be that I just haven't played the right game yet, but the gameplay aspect I'm most interested in is the fact that everything that isn't you isn't always something you need to kill. Or, to be more accurate, it's like instead of having a bunch of "enemies" running around, you have a bunch of actual characters running around that you can interact with in a number of ways, more importantly, they aren't just standing there, or occasionally fighting each other, they all seem to have their own goals they are currently attempting to accomplish and react to your character in different ways.

At least, some of them are like that. The random psycho creature flipping out and throwing knives did not instill confidence that all the creatures were like that...

Quote:The actual shooting and enemy interaction mechanic reminded me of survival horror type gameplay where ammo and health is scarce, very Condemned (sega).

Or System Shock 2.

Quote:which is a typical hallway FPS akin to Doom.

I really have to disagree with that. Doom involves running through a series of long corridors, generally. Bioshock, from the video, looks to have a lot of free-roaming elements, instead of looking for the red key to open the door to the next area.

However, even if it does end up being a "typical hallway FPS", their games have always been about setting up an atmosphere of tension and dread. They did it to an amazing level with System Shock 2 and I believe they can do it again.

Quote:Making enemy types fight eachother; that's been done since the first Turok on N64.

I think it's less to do with pitting enemies against each other and more to do with figuring out how to use the different enemies to your advantage. As the video shows, not every single enemy in the game will come after you with a mindless bloodlust. So, you've got to observe the different enemies types, find out what they do, and then use that information to help you progress in the game.

Say you find a room full of those crazy knife women. Do you go in guns blazing? Try to sneak through the shadows? Cause a distraction with one of your canisters? Or lure one of the big daddies into the room by convincing him that you're one of the little sisters and then having him fight the mutants? It's more than just figuring out how to make enemies fight each other.

Quote:Variables like adding a speed boost has also been done to death.

It was in System Shock 2, so there's really no reason why it wouldn't be in this game too.

Quote:At least, some of them are like that. The random psycho creature flipping out and throwing knives did not instill confidence that all the creatures were like that...

Near the end of the video, you see one of the crazy knife women walking around and digging through corpses. So, jumping out at you isn't the only thing they do; they're just more territorial than the other "enemies" in the video.

Quote:which is a typical hallway FPS akin to Doom.

Seriously, did you even watch that video? If so, you weren't paying much attention given how many times Levine (who is awesome, unlike your criticisms) emphasizes that this game is NOT a standard FPS, or a linear succession or cooridors, or a game with only one path through the game... it's exactly what you'd expect from Irrational and its Looking Glass heritage, of course ((listing just first-person games) Ultima Underworld, Thief, TerraNova, System Shock from LGS; System Shock 2, Tribes: Vengeance, SWAT 4, Tribes: Vengance from Irrational), but I doubt that Lazy knows much about those games...

Quote:I think it's less to do with pitting enemies against each other and more to do with figuring out how to use the different enemies to your advantage. As the video shows, not every single enemy in the game will come after you with a mindless bloodlust. So, you've got to observe the different enemies types, find out what they do, and then use that information to help you progress in the game.

Say you find a room full of those crazy knife women. Do you go in guns blazing? Try to sneak through the shadows? Cause a distraction with one of your canisters? Or lure one of the big daddies into the room by convincing him that you're one of the little sisters and then having him fight the mutants? It's more than just figuring out how to make enemies fight each other.

Exactly like System Shock 2, maybe Deus Ex, and not a lot else... :)

Comparing that to Turok of all things? Ridiculous... this is more than just getting enemies to fight eachother, as GR says. It's giving the player true choice in how they wish to play through the game. If this game is at all like System Shock or Deus Ex you can avoid a lot of fighting if you so choose, or you can fight a lot... it's all up to the player. Choice, RPG elements, they are central to these games... Comparing System Shock to Turok, of all things... :barf: (not that Turok is bad, but it's a completely different genre! Simplistic FPS vs. FPS/RPG hybrid adventure... absolutely no comparison...)

Quote:Or System Shock 2.

Or System Shock 1, actually, but yes. :) This is a continuation of one of the best and most original first-person game serieses there is... (note that I don't call it an FPS, because it's not really one, like most of Looking Glass's games... I know that SWAT 4 and Tribes are more conventional FPSes in some ways (though each is original in its own way, Tribes:Vengeance with a great, deep story and lots of open level designs and SWAT with... uh, never played it so I don't know but I'm sure there's something... :)), but this is System Shock, so it's not going to be even that conventional.

It will surely have some strong horror elements though, given that the System Shock games make a strong effort to scare the player... System Shock 2 was truly scary for a lot of people for good reasons.

Quote:I agree with you on most of those points lazy but I think you may have missed one aspect I was noticing. It may be that I just haven't played the right game yet, but the gameplay aspect I'm most interested in is the fact that everything that isn't you isn't always something you need to kill. Or, to be more accurate, it's like instead of having a bunch of "enemies" running around, you have a bunch of actual characters running around that you can interact with in a number of ways, more importantly, they aren't just standing there, or occasionally fighting each other, they all seem to have their own goals they are currently attempting to accomplish and react to your character in different ways.

At least, some of them are like that. The random psycho creature flipping out and throwing knives did not instill confidence that all the creatures were like that...

System Shock (1994, Looking Glass Studios), System Shock 2 (1999, Irrational Games/Looking Glass Studios), and Deux Ex (2000, Ion Storm/Eidos) are the main three standard-bearers of this style of game. All three are exceptional, make an effort to at least try the demos!

... hey, and I got all three of those dates right without looking them up, too... :)

It's kind of FPS/RPG, as I said. There are situations you come across, and you have to decide how to solve them... through a puzzle of some kind (like using the powers in this game, or hacking a terminal and causing a distraction, or something), through just running in shooting, or whatever, it's (usually) up to you...

Quote:imo it needs imaginative weapons; A good FPS or FPA takes each weapon type in to consideration. You have a weapon that generates alot of heat, so the enemy shot by it acts like its burning to death, sets on fire, etc. The weapon is electricity based so the enemy gets shocked and convulses. I mean here we have a game where water is everywhere, electricty would make a great dynamic such as luring enemies on to the water and then electrifying the water, or how about dip in to a little James Cameron and add a mechanic where you get a device that controls and manipulates water, making watery walls or the Abyssian water tentacle to be used as a spy to steal items. Ever seen those drills that use high pressure water cannons? They cut through solid steel, how cool would it be to have a high pressured water cannon that uses sea water to give you short bursts of laser-esque offensive capabilities that at long range pushes the enemy back and at short range can litteraly slice them up dynamically.

I found this depressing. Someone watches a BioShock video (supposedly) and all they can think about is wanting cool guns? If that's all you can think about, this isn't the right game for you, that's for sure... :(

And besides, the gun in the video is cool! Various modifications for different situations and all..

My main point is that not every NPC in an FPS should be thought of as an "enemy". The idea of them being actual characters that are going about their business with Majora's Mask level scripting, that interests me a lot. Just having the options of "avoiding" or "fighting" aren't really full options to me. It's the idea of being able to observe a creature and find out if you can befriend it, defend it, that sort of thing.

Come to think of it, I think a realistic "Crocodile Hunter" game where you wander through a wild land and have to learn how various creatures operate and use them to survive would be very fun. I'm not talking "survival horror" where everything wants you dead, I'm just talking of a lot of creatures running or laying around doing whatever it is they do to survive. Think about pikmin, only instead of everything in either "worker" or "predator" role, it's all just a bunch of animals.

Apparently this studio is popular with some of you, but regardless of what the guy said in the video of it being a non-linear non-coridor, free-roam masterpiece (which is exactly how Turok was described) you do in fact follow a set path through a linear storyline and progress through cramped hallways in an underwater city - that is the game. Your progress wil be blocked until you find a weapon/key/security code/cause scripted event/use special item in order to progress to the story's resolution. I understand that the guy in the video wants to tell you how non-traditional FPS it is but the video says otherwise.

The reference to Turok I made was that in Turok (and 2, I dont remember if 3 did it) if you were low on ammo or health, you could run behind an enemy to make another enemy shoot it or otherwise attack it, causing them to fight among themselves while you run through unscathed giving you a huge advantage. The fight went on to the death usually giving you plenty of time. It didn't work if the enemy type were the same though. ie: two raptors wouldn't fight eachother, but a mechanical hybrid raptor would fight a normal raptor - This is exactly how that mechanic works in Bioshock. With the added mechanic of being able to throw some dust on a creature in order to cause the attack and subsequent fight, so you have more specific control over who is going to fight who. But it's still the same thing.

Yes, indeed I want to see imaginative weapons in a sci-fi/fantasy first person shooter that takes place in the 1940's underwater secret city built by insane zealots who have unlocked not only high end technology but also genetic splicing. A pistol with what looks like a can opener attached to it (with can) with the same point and shoot semi-automatic bang-bang just doesn't sell the idea of future techno 1940's fantasy to me. Imagine the gull of me, wanting imaginative weapons in a first person shooter. I am plumb off my rocker.

If Bioshock is an RPG, Tetris is a RTS.

DJ/ I know exactly what you mean, I wanted so bad to see in Metroid Prime 1 or 2 (another game where you can make enemies fight eachother) A.I. driven animals that just do what they can to survive the area. Stealing food from other creatures, fighting off other creatures that are trying to steal its food/offspring/territory etc. To the point that you could spend the entire gaming 'session' just watching and interacting with the animals. So good point, Bioshock definitely gets kudos for that dynamic. I hope there's more than just the sister/bigdaddy thing though.

Quote:If Bioshock is an RPG, Tetris is a RTS.

System Shock 1 and 2 are filled with RPG elements and I imagine that Bioshock will be no different.

Quote:Yes, indeed I want to see imaginative weapons in a sci-fi/fantasy first person shooter that takes place in the 1940's underwater secret city built by insane zealots who have unlocked not only high end technology but also genetic splicing. A pistol with what looks like a can opener attached to it (with can) with the same point and shoot semi-automatic bang-bang just doesn't sell the idea of future techno 1940's fantasy to me. Imagine the gull of me, wanting imaginative weapons in a first person shooter. I am plumb off my rocker.

And I really doubt that there's only going to be just those two weapons in the game. Plus, I like the way the weapons look.

I'll say right now the guy did seem to lay it on thick. A lot of it didn't seem nearly as innovative as he said it was. The interaction of the only two creatures to really act unique me is the one thing that really impressed me about that video, and that's why it excited me. If the whole game has a compelling and involving dynamic along those lines, good. If that's just some ultra limited thing tossed in only every once in a while, and eventually the same puzzles just repeat themselves over and over until the game "ends", then I'll be disappointed. It wouldn't be the first time an innovative idea wasn't fully realized and it's potential was squandered.

lazy, you nailed exactly what I was thinking of there. In Metroid it would work great, so long as the planet or station she ended up on didn't have some binding all controlling "corruption" storyline behind it. They've done that a lot recently, mainly I think because they felt they needed a reason why everything attacks Samus. Do this though, and it's different. I'd be happy with scripted interactions at this point, but ideally some time in the future they could do it all procedurally which would give it the real depth I'm after. Of course, going beyond Metroid, I'm thinking instead of just someone with a gun, give them a different more useful tool, a HAND. The ideal would be a game that's a cross between Crocodile Hunter and Survival Man (the latter show has readily admitted a lot of the camera settings are staged though, like for example when the guy walks off into the wilderness away from the camera, well clearly he's not just leaving the camera behind, he'll have to walk back, shut off the camera, and walk that distance again WITH the camera). You could just have a plain old "I have to survive and interact procedurally with various stuff in my environment to build a lean-to and then set a small rabbit trap", only with original animals maybe on an alien world or a "lost" world on Earth. Or, it could go beyond that with side plots. Why is this person lost? Is there something even more important than your main character's survival? Maybe there is a hidden tribe on whatever place you find yourself stranded. Maybe you ARE part of a tribe and your survival is tied in with the entire tribe's. Maybe you are doing a Survival Man style nature show and on top of living you also have to set up good shots on film (or are making a fictional movie in some strange place, ala King Kong, the game of which had some interesting ideas but again that game just fell into the same "it's all enemies" mentallity, and also just looped the same sort of environment and puzzles over and over). Maybe there is some global plot, like you are a spy and have to get out of this territory to eventually get "ze meecrofeelm" to British intelligence, or perhaps you went here to get a rare sample in a cure that's been fully tested but there aren't enough of the raw ingrediants available to end the plague killing all the childrens so away you go to this location to gather then from some plant or creature before millions die. Maybe you are a peace ambassador that got lost in the jungle and you are attempting to reach a peace conference between two warring tribes on this world or the results will be devastating, avoiding or perhaps stopping a hunting party from some group that wants the violence to continue, maybe finding some spy or slowly collecting information from that. Maybe you are a conservationist attempting to study the environment to gather details on effects of either a strange new strange that's developed in a certain species, a new weather system development that occured, some high level of pollution, or the introduction of a foreign critter or two to the ecology, or poaching, or whatever there's a lot that can happen and you have to study what's happened to all the creatures and big time effects in a journal.

There are so many different ways a game that involves procedural actual creatures could go it's mind boggling. And that's just creatures without things like a prefrontal cortex! Imagine the dynamics involved in a higher level social grouping of creatures from more developed apes to the more deranged psychotic ones that we are, in other words dealing with a tribe and it's occasional hunting parties, perhaps making peace or instead deciding to manipulate, or maybe accidently offending their spirituality and finding yourself just trying to escape them as well as intelligent coordinated hunts and traps looking for you.

Wow, I want that game and all it's many possible variations...

Quote:System Shock 1 and 2 are filled with RPG elements and I imagine that Bioshock will be no different.

Yup. Lazy, you haven't played System Shock 2, so you're speaking out of ignorance. These games have many RPG elements. Some even were in the video -- puzzles with multiple solutions (somewhat common in (PC) RPGs, and not in FPSes), stat points to distribute, etc... and I expect the full game to have even more.

Quote:Apparently this studio is popular with some of you,

You'd understand why if you had played their games.

Quote:Apparently this studio is popular with some of you, but regardless of what the guy said in the video of it being a non-linear non-coridor, free-roam masterpiece (which is exactly how Turok was described) you do in fact follow a set path through a linear storyline and progress through cramped hallways in an underwater city - that is the game. Your progress wil be blocked until you find a weapon/key/security code/cause scripted event/use special item in order to progress to the story's resolution. I understand that the guy in the video wants to tell you how non-traditional FPS it is but the video says otherwise.

Nope. There will be obstacles for sure, but you won't have to get the keycard. Weren't you watching? It showed several puzzle situations, and in each there were multiple options... run in shooting, use the stealth approach and try to sneak by, use deception to get the enemies to go away or fight eachother, wait to see if the enemy leaves the area... in System Shock 2 you didn't HAVE to go find those keycards. You could go out and shoot things to find the keycard, but you could also, for instance, try to hack the door (it's a sci-fi game) or use psyonic powers to kill the enemies and get the card that way... sure, it's not "you can do anything you want and it's completely open ended and you can go anywhere at any time", but it's also a game, and what fun would a game be if you had no obstacles to have to overcome? The focus should (and probably will) be on making each of those places interesting and varied... good, solid puzzles and design is more important than the degree of open-endedness anyway, I think.

No, the whole point is that it's not all scripted. Remember how he said that the 'daddies' and 'little girls' aren't on scripted paths, but wander around looking for things? So that situation in the demo, I'd expect that in the real game it'd be just a chance of it happening there (with both a badguy and the pair of them together)... and the fight between those two wasn't a scripted event either, as he said -- remember how he mentioned that sometimes when he went through that demo they came into the building with him, still fighting, but that didn't happen this time? They're fighting eachother because the player set it off and they were near eachother, not because there is a scripted event there... though they could rig that by having both of them be near that area most of the time or something, of course. We'd need to see more of the game to see exactly how that turns out. Sure there will be places where you have a puzzle you have to solve, but the key is multiple paths... you have multiple ways of going about solving the puzzle, not just one like in 99.99% of FPSes (hmm, do I run in from the right or from the left? Decisions, decisions! ... oh right, there's only one cooridor. :D)

Of course there will be events that you have to do, but non-linear or multi-path games aren't about being completely open, they're about giving the player choices... open levels so you don't have a feeling that all you can do is go to the next location on the railed path (if what he says is true it should be like that, but we'll see), multiple ways to solve puzzles (as we saw)...

Quote:The reference to Turok I made was that in Turok (and 2, I dont remember if 3 did it) if you were low on ammo or health, you could run behind an enemy to make another enemy shoot it or otherwise attack it, causing them to fight among themselves while you run through unscathed giving you a huge advantage. The fight went on to the death usually giving you plenty of time. It didn't work if the enemy type were the same though. ie: two raptors wouldn't fight eachother, but a mechanical hybrid raptor would fight a normal raptor - This is exactly how that mechanic works in Bioshock. With the added mechanic of being able to throw some dust on a creature in order to cause the attack and subsequent fight, so you have more specific control over who is going to fight who. But it's still the same thing.

Um, no. The game has a lot of powers, we only saw thee of them... remember the screen with a bunch of abilities? There are more than just 'agression', 'super-speed', and 'threat' (to make that enemy set off the security cameras) for sure...

Quote:And I really doubt that there's only going to be just those two weapons in the game. Plus, I like the way the weapons look.

That weapon is awesome! :)


As for any criticisms I have of the game... hmm. One, when he interacts with the world (pressing buttons, etc) the things just happen; there is no arm animation or something. This implies that once again it's a "floating orb with a gun" game... I've never liked that design...

Also, what we saw there isn't as innovative as perhaps he implies; it was done before, if just by people with connections to Looking Glass... I think he just was stating things that strongly because of how few OTHER FPSes vary from the established formulas of cooridors and linear shooting... and that's a very valid criticism. Most FPSes are so similar in their basic gameplay...

Oh yeah, and we can't see how open-ended the level designs are from this test. Is it mostly a cooridor which you solve puzzles along, or is it large open areas which you have to wander around in some fashion to find your goals... are there traditional "levels" or does it just open up new areas as you go along... are there characters to interact with (perhaps unlikely, given how the System Shock games are about being in places where everyone has been horribly killed by a malevolent AI... :) Journals and stuff perhaps? Some form of character interaction would be good though.) Anyway, it looks quite good, and I want to see more. :)

Looks so, so awesome... and not just gameplay, amazing graphics too... of course, it's from Irrational Games and is relaly System Shock 3, so what else would anyone expect? :)

That just looks so great... the previous video demo I saw (longer than that) was awesome too, and explained more, but this one was cool too. Showed the player just doing random stuff instead of following the mission... they have done an amazing job with the AI, to say the least, from everything I have seen. Of course, it's Irrational, and they're one of the best.

... so how about that rumor that they're working on an X-Com game? Almost too awesome a concept to believe... :D ( http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/45797 )

I just re-read my post and I want that imaginary game again...

This game (that actually exists) is pretty darn awesome, though. Irrational is awesome.

Irrational is awesome. Awesome is Irrational.

Let me say it again... "Irrational Games presents X-Com"...
...
...

I want...