Relative to the Xbox 360. Just compare the numbers...
- means included, + means addon, pay extra, ? means I don't know
PS3: $600
-wi-fi internet included
-DVD playback included
-blu-ray high density DVD playback
-free online service of some kind, for games and downloads (though some games (MMORPGs) may have additional fees)
-60GB HDD
+addon for PS1/PS2 memory card support: price to be determined
?charging kit for the controllers?
-HDMI for 1080p
Xbox 360: $400
-20GB HDD
-DVD playback included (or does it require a separate remote like the Xbox did? not sure)
+wi-fi internet: add $100
+online service: basic functions (online purchasing section, demo downloads, etc): free; online multiplayer game play is $50 a year (MMORPGs and similar titles have additional fees)
+Xbox memory card transfer: several third party addons required, relatively costly
+HD-DVD high density DVD playback - price rumored at $199? To be determined.
+play-and-charge kit for controllers is ~$20 extra
?availability of larger hard drives unknown
-no HDMI
So... to match the PS3's feature list, and assuming a lifespan of five years (for determination of Xbox Live fees), just in these fields the PS3 owner spends $600. The X360 owner probably spends $950 --and that doesn't include a larger hard drive. Or a play-and-charge kit for the controller (though I don't know if PS3 will include such a thing either).
As for the low-end models, despite the higher prices, there I'm not sure. Will the $500 PS3 have an add-on for wireless internet (not built in) or HDMI (doesn't seem so)? It does seem that the hard drive will be upgradable, so its 20GB HDD is probably not irreparably downgraded, but without knowing those other things, the Xbox 360 Core, with its only changes of note things you can add back on, is the better choice -- though no one should actually get a Core. Core isn't actually $300, it's $340 -- you need a memory card... or $400, if you want the hard drive. And then why not just get the normal one for the same price? 20GB for $100 (a massive ripoff, by the way) or $40 for 64MB (flash memory card prices are fun! :D)... which one makes more sense? Yeah.
Anyway, my point... the massive amount of stuff aimed at Sony after its price was announced? It's because they're trying to include everything in one box instead of having only the basics in the box and making the other things optional. That latter strategy is what lets MS get away with its overall higher prices, and get praise for its "lower" price while Sony gets torn apart for a high one... clever, MS, clever. And it's worked brilliantly for them, too.
Nintendo really needs to make clear how similar MS and Sony actually are in price for them to make much impact from their lower price... I don't know if it'll work, though. Historically price hasn't been the major determining factor in who wins the console wars... and people only look at the price on the box, not the additional price of the required extras they'll also need in order to make that box actually work the way they want it to.
A Black Falcon Wrote:Relative to the Xbox 360. Just compare the numbers...
- means included, + means addon, pay extra, ? means I don't know
PS3: $600
-wi-fi internet included
-DVD playback included
-blu-ray high density DVD playback
-free online service of some kind, for games and downloads (though some games (MMORPGs) may have additional fees)
-60GB HDD
+addon for PS1/PS2 memory card support: price to be determined
?charging kit for the controllers?
-HDMI for 1080p
MMOs will have additional fees. Free only means it's free to get online on the system, it doesn't include individual game fees.
Quote:Xbox 360: $400
-20GB HDD
-DVD playback included (or does it require a separate remote like the Xbox did? not sure)
+wi-fi internet: add $100
+online service: basic functions (online purchasing section, demo downloads, etc): free; online multiplayer game play is $50 a year (MMORPGs and similar titles have additional fees)
+Xbox memory card transfer: several third party addons required, relatively costly
+HD-DVD high density DVD playback - price rumored at $199? To be determined.
+play-and-charge kit for controllers is ~$20 extra
?availability of larger hard drives unknown
-no HDMI
MMOs do not require Live Gold. Playing them is included with the free live. They are the only game genre that doesn't require XBox Live because they use the company's game servers instead of MS's.
Quote:So... to match the PS3's feature list, and assuming a lifespan of five years (for determination of Xbox Live fees), just in these fields the PS3 owner spends $600. The X360 owner probably spends $950 --and that doesn't include a larger hard drive. Or a play-and-charge kit for the controller (though I don't know if PS3 will include such a thing either).
As for the low-end models, despite the higher prices, there I'm not sure. Will the $500 PS3 have an add-on for wireless internet (not built in) or HDMI (doesn't seem so)? It does seem that the hard drive will be upgradable, so its 20GB HDD is probably not irreparably downgraded, but without knowing those other things, the Xbox 360 Core, with its only changes of note things you can add back on, is the better choice -- though no one should actually get a Core. Core isn't actually $300, it's $340 -- you need a memory card... or $400, if you want the hard drive. And then why not just get the normal one for the same price? 20GB for $100 (a massive ripoff, by the way) or $40 for 64MB (flash memory card prices are fun! :D)... which one makes more sense? Yeah.
Anyway, my point... the massive amount of stuff aimed at Sony after its price was announced? It's because they're trying to include everything in one box instead of having only the basics in the box and making the other things optional. That latter strategy is what lets MS get away with its overall higher prices, and get praise for its "lower" price while Sony gets torn apart for a high one... clever, MS, clever. And it's worked brilliantly for them, too.
Nintendo really needs to make clear how similar MS and Sony actually are in price for them to make much impact from their lower price... I don't know if it'll work, though. Historically price hasn't been the major determining factor in who wins the console wars... and people only look at the price on the box, not the additional price of the required extras they'll also need in order to make that box actually work the way they want it to.
You actually bring up a good point, though to be honest I have no intention of buying all those add-ons anyway. The "out of the box" features are pretty much all I'll use.
Fixed your quote tag... :)
Quote:MMOs will have additional fees. Free only means it's free to get online on the system, it doesn't include individual game fees.
I said 'may' because that depends on the game... the "no monthly fee MMO-ish game" genre is becoming more popular on PCs with the success of stuff like Guild Wars. Who says it won't eventually come to consoles too (of course it could be said that the original Phantasy Star Online was such a game, but then they added fees from version 2...)?
Quote:MMOs do not require Live Gold. Playing them is included with the free live. They are the only game genre that doesn't require XBox Live because they use the company's game servers instead of MS's.
Interesting, didn't know that. Still though, I'd expect that most people interested enough in online X360 games to pay for a montly-fee online game are going to have Live Gold subscriptions...
Quote:You actually bring up a good point, though to be honest I have no intention of buying all those add-ons anyway. The "out of the box" features are pretty much all I'll use.
That's what MS says too, and some things are less useful for some people, but I'd still bet that the average console-plus-additions price for a X360 is going to be above $600. Microsoft has benefitted so much among hardcore gamers from all this anger aimed at Sony for its pric, who as usual just look at the initial sticker price and not the hidden costs behind it...
Really, both consoles are absurdly expensive. There hadn't been a $400 console since the Saturn for a reason... but now we have two at and above that level! Four years of Live and that X360 costs just as much as a PS3, and that's with a harddrive one third the size, without the wi-fi, and without HD-DVD/Blu-Ray (though whether that is a problem or not remains to be seen... the failure of both formats seems like perhaps the most likely result from this war, honestly...)... does that make the PS3 better? No, but it makes the "Get a X360 because PS3 is so expensive" people sound somewhat absurd.
Just get a Wii and save your money... :D
A Black Falcon Wrote:Relative to the Xbox 360. Just compare the numbers...
- means included, + means addon, pay extra, ? means I don't know
PS3: $600
-wi-fi internet included
-DVD playback included
-blu-ray high density DVD playback
-free online service of some kind, for games and downloads (though some games (MMORPGs) may have additional fees)
-60GB HDD
+addon for PS1/PS2 memory card support: price to be determined
?charging kit for the controllers?
-HDMI for 1080p
Xbox 360: $400
-20GB HDD
-DVD playback included (or does it require a separate remote like the Xbox did? not sure)
+wi-fi internet: add $100
+online service: basic functions (online purchasing section, demo downloads, etc): free; online multiplayer game play is $50 a year (MMORPGs and similar titles have additional fees)
+Xbox memory card transfer: several third party addons required, relatively costly
+HD-DVD high density DVD playback - price rumored at $199? To be determined.
+play-and-charge kit for controllers is ~$20 extra
?availability of larger hard drives unknown
-no HDMI
So... to match the PS3's feature list, and assuming a lifespan of five years (for determination of Xbox Live fees), just in these fields the PS3 owner spends $600. The X360 owner probably spends $950 --and that doesn't include a larger hard drive. Or a play-and-charge kit for the controller (though I don't know if PS3 will include such a thing either).
As for the low-end models, despite the higher prices, there I'm not sure. Will the $500 PS3 have an add-on for wireless internet (not built in) or HDMI (doesn't seem so)? It does seem that the hard drive will be upgradable, so its 20GB HDD is probably not irreparably downgraded, but without knowing those other things, the Xbox 360 Core, with its only changes of note things you can add back on, is the better choice -- though no one should actually get a Core. Core isn't actually $300, it's $340 -- you need a memory card... or $400, if you want the hard drive. And then why not just get the normal one for the same price? 20GB for $100 (a massive ripoff, by the way) or $40 for 64MB (flash memory card prices are fun! :D)... which one makes more sense? Yeah.
Anyway, my point... the massive amount of stuff aimed at Sony after its price was announced? It's because they're trying to include everything in one box instead of having only the basics in the box and making the other things optional. That latter strategy is what lets MS get away with its overall higher prices, and get praise for its "lower" price while Sony gets torn apart for a high one... clever, MS, clever. And it's worked brilliantly for them, too.
Nintendo really needs to make clear how similar MS and Sony actually are in price for them to make much impact from their lower price... I don't know if it'll work, though. Historically price hasn't been the major determining factor in who wins the console wars... and people only look at the price on the box, not the additional price of the required extras they'll also need in order to make that box actually work the way they want it to.
Long post...
I prefer MS's approach of everything you want, nothing you don't. If I don't want to go online and download demos, games, etc then why do I need a HDD? If I don't buy movies then why do I need a blu-ray/hd-dvd drive? If I don't care for backwards compatability then why should I care? If I want the wired controllers so I don't have to get a charge kit then let me decide that...
I wish Sony were going that route because I would opt NOT to have blu-ray, wi-fi, or a harddrive. I imagine we'd see a $300 PS3...oh well.
The core is a valid purchase for those who just want the games at their most basic. The only reason you'd want a HDD & Xbox Live Silver (free) is to go online and download extras, or play against others (Xbox Live Gold - Subscription) otherwise you're good. I value having the choice...and I despise Sony for forcing so much crap in to the PS3. I won't ever get one, ever.
Quote:The core is a valid purchase for those who just want the games at their most basic. The only reason you'd want a HDD & Xbox Live Silver (free) is to go online and download extras, or play against others (Xbox Live Gold - Subscription) otherwise you're good. I value having the choice...and I despise Sony for forcing so much crap in to the PS3. I won't ever get one, ever.
The normal X360 is $60 more expensive for about 300 times more save/download space. Why the heck would anyone get the Core? The only reason is what I said -- people thinking only about the initial sticker price and not about the actual cost of the extras you need to make it work.
Quote:I prefer MS's approach of everything you want, nothing you don't. If I don't want to go online and download demos, games, etc then why do I need a HDD? If I don't buy movies then why do I need a blu-ray/hd-dvd drive? If I don't care for backwards compatability then why should I care? If I want the wired controllers so I don't have to get a charge kit then let me decide that...
If you don't mind spending a lot more money, that's fine, but it's not exactly the most efficient way to go about things... sure you can not get things you don't need, but most of those things should probably be built-in anyway, so they're more in the realm of "required extras if you want to properly use the console"... that applies for Xbox Live and the HDD for sure, anyway. And over a normal five year lifespan Live would cost $250... that's a lot. Add $100 more if you need wireless internet, too.
Oh yeah, and $75 controllers sure are fun too aren't they... :) (wireless controller + play and charge kit + extra battery is around that) Yeah, wired controllers are a lot cheaper, and are probably a better buy, but the wireless ones seem to be a lot more popular. Anyway, it's only got two front USB ports, you need wireless controllers if you want to play three or four player games... I wonder how much PS3 and Wii controllers will cost. Given that they are wireless too, probably way too much just like X360 ones. :(
The thing to consider is people still need memory cards if they don't get an HDD. Those are EXPENSIVE. Might as well just get an HDD. That's why, as far as I'm concerned, the premium package is the better deal.
Hopefully MS has no intention of using that HD-DVD add-on for any game related content, such as games.
The Premium 360 is a good deal...if you need that space. I can't say for sure, but I bet a 64MB memory card would suffice for your casual gamers who just play the basic game.
Again, ABF, you don't need all those things to play properly. You can go through all Xbox 360 games (save for FF11) with the core, and save with a memory card. There are extras, and they come at a premium ( as they should being extras and all) Until online gaming and everything it entails becomes common, the extras- HDD, Xbox Live, wi-fi, etc should stay extras and optional.
That's the trick though. The majority of gameplayers want to be enabled to enjoy the full feature list, they want to download not only classic games but also original games and download patches like extra maps, weapons, etc. Nintendo says that's either free or cheap, Sony says it's free or cheap (after the burn of the sticker price) and MS says you pay through the nose.
There's a reason that both the PS3 core and 360 core have the premium package and the 'retard pack', because it offers a cheaper alternative. Then slowly over time, Sony and MS will release content that will sway the gameplayer in to needing to purchase the other krap. Games that need an HDD, games that offer alot of download content, etc, eventually almost forcing the player to buy the extra krap if they want to stay with that system and get the upcoming games. Even if it takes you 5 years to eventually aqcuire all the extras, most people will do it simply because it's available, and they feel cheated without it.
Anytime you release anything with disabled features, people want the features enabled. I've seen halo nerds get Live super EX plus edition and use it once or twice at parties and yet still pay for it just so they have it available when needed. It's a sucker punch, I mean 600 bucks is just stupid, hell 400 bucks is stupid, but I'd honestly rather pay a one time sticker price than have a new set of bills in my mailbox every month.
I should also say that i'll pay the 10 bucks to have Chrono Trigger playing on Wii, i'll pay the 25 to have the update pack for BWii that gives you twice as many levels, new campaigns, etc. But if Nintendo offered a monthly subscription service I wouldn't take it, if they said you must buy an HDD to play Metroid Prime 4, i'd buy it, but I would lose faith in the company and look down on them for it.
Quote:The thing to consider is people still need memory cards if they don't get an HDD. Those are EXPENSIVE. Might as well just get an HDD. That's why, as far as I'm concerned, the premium package is the better deal.
I said that several times. Note the "The core is actually $340, minimum" part?
Quote:Again, ABF, you don't need all those things to play properly. You can go through all Xbox 360 games (save for FF11) with the core, and save with a memory card. There are extras, and they come at a premium ( as they should being extras and all) Until online gaming and everything it entails becomes common, the extras- HDD, Xbox Live, wi-fi, etc should stay extras and optional.
You're acting like people actually don't get those options, and that's absurd. Live attach rates on the 360 are pretty high, much higher than the Xbox thanks to Microsoft's effort and the free period included in the box. The hard drive is required for anyone who wants FF 11, backwards compatibility, Live Arcade downloads (for all intents and purposes; what could you do otherwise, download like one? To a $40 memory card? Now that's cost efficient...), demo downloads, custom soundtracks, the 360 as a media center, etc, etc... MS has such a huge effort around stuff that uses the HDD that saying "people without it are just as well off" is ridiculous. Maybe some casual gamers do indeed not go online with their 360 and don't have HDDs, but that's not what MS wants and that's not what the 360 is designed for. The HDD is only detachable as a cost-saving measure; it's an integral part of the system and a 360 without a HDD is a crippled console. Same as one without an internet connection -- just like PCs. :)
Quote:Anytime you release anything with disabled features, people want the features enabled. I've seen halo nerds get Live super EX plus edition and use it once or twice at parties and yet still pay for it just so they have it available when needed. It's a sucker punch, I mean 600 bucks is just stupid, hell 400 bucks is stupid, but I'd honestly rather pay a one time sticker price than have a new set of bills in my mailbox every month.
The only advantage of a larger amount paid over a longer period of time is that it looks smaller on your bills and perhaps by the time you get the later parts you could be making more money, making it more affordable... still doesn't change the fact that you spent more money overall than you would have with the alternative though. That's an unalterable fact.
Quote:I should also say that i'll pay the 10 bucks to have Chrono Trigger playing on Wii, i'll pay the 25 to have the update pack for BWii that gives you twice as many levels, new campaigns, etc. But if Nintendo offered a monthly subscription service I wouldn't take it, if they said you must buy an HDD to play Metroid Prime 4, i'd buy it, but I would lose faith in the company and look down on them for it.
Nintendo won't do monthly (or yearly) fees, and that's great, but I do think that they really like the idea of micropayments... as for hard drives, it's possible. There certainly are rumors out there that the Wii might be USB harddrive compatible in some fashion...
As for games that require addons, how about the N64? I guess that that's not as bad because the expansion pack was included in a few games and was only $30...
I already have Chrono Trigger (twice over to get FFIV). I'm not paying for it just because it's on a different system. Expansion packs? If the game is good enough and the new content is worth the price (as I judge it), yeah. I get those packs all the time, like Frozen Throne.
MS has a fee, but what that fee amounts to is that MS actually owns the servers for ALL the games you get access to with Live and there's a significant cost associated with keeping them all running. The advantage is communication. Since they share the same servers, they can communicate with each other. Some people pay for a year's subscription (and there are one month itterations these days, but I don't get that) and only use it during parties. Others like myself will use it for weeks at a time and then not for a while and then weeks at a time again. Besides that I pay in advance, not after, and it's a one time thing so I don't even get a bill. The service just shuts off, as I've told it to in settings.
But, is the ability to see that someone else is playing some other game really worth that sort of overhead? Eh, probably not. I'm fine with each company managing their own server fleet and mere communication between all those games. That makes things cheaper on each company involved and often they can allow online play for free, for example Battle.net or Nintendo Wifi. Mind you, Nintendo's own online service can catch up with all the OTHER features just fine, and should.
And yeah, you've willingly and cheerfully bought Nintendo's add-ons before lazy. A hard disk isn't a slap in the face. Companies don't make games that support them because they want your money. It's a technical REQUIREMENT sometimes. If they really want your money, they go without support for it. Look at how slowly unpopular technology is adapted. If no one buys the accessory, they only bother offering at most token support for the add-on, but making it a requirement cuts sales, so they only do it when needed. I didn't see you complaining about the link cable deal with Crystal Chronicles (I did a bit, and I still think there was a work around but I've seen a lot worse things).
Look at the PS2. That hard disk did terribly. The only game that actually requires it requires it for a REALLY GOOD reason. FFXI is an MMO and those games get so massively updated that the original code is sometimes completely replaced. It HAD to have the entire game on a changable format.
If Nintendo makes their own MMO lazy (not... impossible), you can count on them either requiring a hard drive or very high speed memory card. Hard drive is cheaper for the space, they'll likely go that way. If they do that, well MMOs require constant addition of fresh content every few months to maintain interest, and that means programmers, so there will be a fee.
You say you will lose faith if they toss a hard drive at you? I really doubt that's all that big a deal. If a game absolutely requires it, then it requires it, and I can see a number of situations where a good game could require it outright.
Anyway, in the case of the REOutbreak games on PS2, they only utilized it for faster caching. No extra content was needed, so it wasn't required, but it wasn't the most optimized game in the world so there were some killer load times if you didn't have a hard disk.
As a general rule, game designers only require hardware that is actually required.
The exceptions, well, Nintendo started the horrible trend of completely stupid "requirements" to get certain content, but hopefully they'll be stopping that pretty soon. I hate it every time they say "and if you link up this game you unlock hidden content" because that content is already IN said game and your little sales trick is a waste of my time and an insult.
And by the way, where were your complaints about how bad the 64DD was? They never released it here, but they did release a number of games exclusively on the device, and it was basically nothing more than a glorified ZIP drive. At the same time, I really liked the idea of having that sort of writable space to work with.
For Microsoft to have a broader reach, a global reach, they did right when they made the core. Online gaming is increasing here and in Europe, but in some countries MS is trying to break into it is nearly non-existant or completely ignored. You don't make those people pay for things they won't use or need..that's not how you reach out to new consumers. Sony will learn that. I honestly don't think the PS3 will achieve its predecessors' success, and it's because of the price.
About Xbox Live and the fee...it's a fantastic service that keeps getting better. You will NOT see the Wii or PS3 online component come close to matching it.
The Xbox Live attach rate is so high because every 360 comes with a silver subscription. All you need is broadband and you're good to go. Last I heard, Microsoft would not devulge what the numbers were between silver and gold subscriptions.
Quote:For Microsoft to have a broader reach, a global reach, they did right when they made the core. Online gaming is increasing here and in Europe, but in some countries MS is trying to break into it is nearly non-existant or completely ignored. You don't make those people pay for things they won't use or need..that's not how you reach out to new consumers. Sony will learn that. I honestly don't think the PS3 will achieve its predecessors' success, and it's because of the price.
Sony well might not reach that level, and the price definitely might be a part of it, but MS isn't necessarially going to capitalize on it. Here's the thing -- while the X360 is selling great in the US, and as we all know has bombed in Japan, it isn't selling as well as expected in Europe either. And I'm not betting on the Wii winning the European market; Nintendo has never been successful at all there, and I don't think that will change now... they are trying to change some of their worse policies, but there's only so much they can do to change long-held knowledge of how many problems Nintendo's European departments have had. Yes, the PS3's price in Europe is insane, and maybe that will limit things, but console prices there are always higher...
Japan, though? Wii should do fantastically, driven by Nintendo fans and nongamers/casual gamers drawn in by what will surely be its DS-like game selection and marketing campaign in Japan... PS3 will do well too though. Could be a split? I don't know, there has always been one clear dominating platform in Japan each console generation, will that change this time?
America... I don't know. It's just too early to tell.
Quote:About Xbox Live and the fee...it's a fantastic service that keeps getting better. You will NOT see the Wii or PS3 online component come close to matching it.
Agreed, I am sure this is true. But sometimes people will accept a lesser service if it costs less... as I've said before though, if Wii online is like DS online, I don't think I'll like it much at all... DS online is just so horribly broken, and if they do that again... it'd be very sad. :(
Quote:The Xbox Live attach rate is so high because every 360 comes with a silver subscription. All you need is broadband and you're good to go. Last I heard, Microsoft would not devulge what the numbers were between silver and gold subscriptions.
That's a very imporant distinction though, since everybody with a 360 has Silver, or could, while Gold is the one that really matters...
A Black Falcon Wrote:Sony well might not reach that level, and the price definitely might be a part of it, but MS isn't necessarially going to capitalize on it. Here's the thing -- while the X360 is selling great in the US, and as we all know has bombed in Japan, it isn't selling as well as expected in Europe either. And I'm not betting on the Wii winning the European market; Nintendo has never been successful at all there, and I don't think that will change now... they are trying to change some of their worse policies, but there's only so much they can do to change long-held knowledge of how many problems Nintendo's European departments have had. Yes, the PS3's price in Europe is insane, and maybe that will limit things, but console prices there are always higher...
Japan, though? Wii should do fantastically, driven by Nintendo fans and nongamers/casual gamers drawn in by what will surely be its DS-like game selection and marketing campaign in Japan... PS3 will do well too though. Could be a split? I don't know, there has always been one clear dominating platform in Japan each console generation, will that change this time?
America... I don't know. It's just too early to tell.
All I can say is we'll see.
Quote:That's a very imporant distinction though, since everybody with a 360 has Silver, or could, while Gold is the one that really matters...
Gold isn't the only one that matters. With Silver you can download patches, demoes, trailers, and other content...some of it for a fee where MS reaps the benefits off of every transaction. That and there's already been talk about ads in games over Live. MS will make money from that ad space.
Yes, and those advetisements need to stop. Have you been hearing these people? They talk about it like it's a GOOD thing! Now, I can see a place for ads in something like, say, Nascar where you want the game to be authentic.
But, if the game is Battlefield 2140 (or whatever the year is, let's just call it 21XX), I don't want any modern ads in there. I got enough of that garbage in "I, Robot" and I don't want to go through that ever again.
And if they put Nike shoes on a hobbit... well it better be out of a sense of irony...
Dark Jaguar Wrote:Yes, and those advetisements need to stop. Have you been hearing these people? They talk about it like it's a GOOD thing! Now, I can see a place for ads in something like, say, Nascar where you want the game to be authentic.
But, if the game is Battlefield 2140 (or whatever the year is, let's just call it 21XX), I don't want any modern ads in there. I got enough of that garbage in "I, Robot" and I don't want to go through that ever again.
And if they put Nike shoes on a hobbit... well it better be out of a sense of irony...
Good or bad, they're coming. It's inevitable. Microsoft is set up to benefit from it. I have a feeling they've had this planned all along and they have much more in store later on (more ways to make money).