Tendo City

Sony Forced To Pull PS2 Off The Market?
Immersion wins Dual Shock patent case.
by James Cranston
March 15, 2006 - The Latest reports indicate that Sony has lost a patent case against Immersion technologies, for it's dual shock Playstation 2 controller. Below is the article from Bit-Tech:

Immersion last year sued Sony for infringing on its patents. Immersion claims that it owns the technology that powers the rumble in Sony's Dual Shock controllers. It also sued Microsoft for its rumble features in the Xbox, but the boys from Redmond settled out of court.

Sony fought on, and lost a case last year. However, it's been allowed to continue selling the PS2 pending appeal. If the latest reports are verified, it's lost that appeal today.

This means that Sony not only has to pony up and awful lot of cash to Immersion Technologies, but it has to stop infringing on the patent - that means stop selling kit which includes Dual Shock technology, and that means pulling the PS2 off the shelf.

Commentators are wondering if this case is the reason for the PS3 controller redesign that we've seen - it's possible the horrendous boomerang monstrosity doesn't infringe on patents.

Interestingly, Immersion is owned in part by Nintendo. The next-generation battle just took another twist...

If these reports are true, then pulling the PS2 off the market is a huge blow against Sony. With PS2 currently being Sony's strongseller in the home console markets, the company with lose a HUGE proportion of its profits, as well as having to pay a large sum to Immersion. Also there had been rumours of Sony developing a Revmote style controller for use with outcoming PS2 titles. I guess losing the patent won't stop Sony from retailing the device (if it existed), but if the PS2 is already off the market...

To finish up, the long awaited fanboy boasting, seeing as Immersion is partly owned by Nintendo... NINTENDOWNED!

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Funny.

This probably means that the PS2 will be repackaged with that boomerang thing which will also be the PS3 controller which is based off a third party PS1 controller. Sony is the only company I know of that can turn the word innovate in to a four-letter explanative. Way to work the patent office, Ken. I hope all the zeros in the check equal your litteral penis length.

Microsoft also owns something like 19% stock in Immersion (back from when they settled with Immersion some years ago).

Sony has already appealed, basically stalling until the PS3 comes out or they come up with some other solution. In any case, Sony's going to have to pay out the ass for this one.

Do not pass Go, do not collect $100.

It's 200 dollars.

Good news to hear, nonetheless. It's a shame that PS3 controller is so mis-shapen (well, if you plan on owning one). Will the PS3 be backwards-compatible with PS2 controllers?

Sacred Jellybean Wrote:It's 200 dollars.

Good news to hear, nonetheless. It's a shame that PS3 controller is so mis-shapen (well, if you plan on owning one). Will the PS3 be backwards-compatible with PS2 controllers?

No. It's not compatible with anything from previous consoles, including the memory cards.

Paco, they already appealed the... appeal?

Can you do that?

This makes sense with the 'Eye-Toy Revolution-esque controller' rumors floating around, and I thought they chose the boomerang just because it looks weird.

And the best part is, the revcon apparently uses something completely different than the GC rumble feature and was said to feel like a 'strong cell phone vibration'. I bet Nintendo cant wait for Sony to steal it too.

lazyfatbum Wrote:Paco, they already appealed the... appeal?

Can you do that?

This makes sense with the 'Eye-Toy Revolution-esque controller' rumors floating around, and I thought they chose the boomerang just because it looks weird.

And the best part is, the revcon apparently uses something completely different than the GC rumble feature and was said to feel like a 'strong cell phone vibration'. I bet Nintendo cant wait for Sony to steal it too.

They are taking it up the ladder to the Supreme Court of Appeals (or whatever it's called).

What did Nintendo do to avoid being sued again?

Quote:What did Nintendo do to avoid being sued again?

Create a rumble feature several years before Immersion did.

So.... How can Immersion get away with sueing Sony and MS and so on when they themselves are the ones breaking copyright?

no no, Immersion is partly owned and funded by Nintendo. it's a subsidiary of Nintendo. like paco said, MS settled out of court and bought some shares in Immersion. Sony fought the entire thing and has failed twice. Even though they're going to try to appeal the decision, they have to remove the 'PS2 dual shock' from the market and pay Immersion back for every PS2 dual shock controller that sony sold.

Nintendo's rumble patent is different from Immersions anyway, but Nintendo's came earlier. Immersion is suing over the rumble patent that THEY filed, not the one that Nintendo filed.

Different how? As in, it's actually in the controller instead of an add-on? I can see that...

But anyway, how far will this extend? There are a million PC controllers out there with the same rumble tech built into them. Are they going after Logitech next?

But oh well, we'll see how this ends up. What are the chances a company like that would sell out to Sony?

Nintendo = One gyro
Immersion = Two gyros
Sony/MS = Two gyros

That's it in a nutshell, I'm sure there's a bit more to it though.

lazyfatbum Wrote:no no, Immersion is partly owned and funded by Nintendo. it's a subsidiary of Nintendo. like paco said, MS settled out of court and bought some shares in Immersion. Sony fought the entire thing and has failed twice. Even though they're going to try to appeal the decision, they have to remove the 'PS2 dual shock' from the market and pay Immersion back for every PS2 dual shock controller that sony sold.

not only that, they also have to remove all first and second party titles that use the rumble feature.

Oh my god, and I thought german fisting porn was bad.

DJ/ i dunno about logitech, they weren't included in the mix. Maybe logitech uses a different system as well.

I actually don't have a logitech rumble pad one, but I do have a "design elements" controller, the "recoil", which is apparently constructed with a hot glue gun, and inside it has two little motors.

At any rate, Nintendo can stay out of it with their own patent, and MS managed to buy them off, but Sony? Looks like they are screwed.

I don't know, it seems a little silly. I doubt this affects them in Japan though. Aren't the copyrights there much more allowing of this sort of thing?

Of course, Sony could always just replace the spinning motor with a weight on it with a motorized gyro in the PS3 and simply agree to pay a royalty for the PS2 and PS1 controllers that have been sold. That would have some cost involved, but it would solve their problem.

A year ago, Sony lost the initial court case to Immersion, which is partially owned by both Microsoft (to settle their case) and Nintendo (already a stockholder... but Immersion's stated reason for not suing them too when they sued MS and Sony was that Nintendo's rumble technology wasn't infringing on the patents. Which is quite possibly true, because the Immersion patents don't completely cover every way of doing force feedback...).

Now, they lost the appeal.

In another year, they lose the second one?

Yeah, this'll be in courts for a while... Sony is doomed, but will drag it out as long as they possibly can. They REALLY don't want to pay Immersion that $90 million judgement, plus pay a $30 million liscencing fee, plus pull all infringing products off the shelves...

Quote:Create a rumble feature several years before Immersion did.

No, I'm pretty sure that Immersion was first (the first force feedback joysticks and stuff launched in 1996, which is before the rumble pack... pretty clear there which was first. Rumble was a functionally limited imitation of force feedback (since force feedback is reactive and moves the stick/pad/wheel in response to signals from the game -- not just shaking it, but true feedback...), but as you say, Nintendo's tech is different.

Quote:But anyway, how far will this extend? There are a million PC controllers out there with the same rumble tech built into them. Are they going after Logitech next?

They all liscence it from Immersion, or try to do like Nintendo and find their own route and patent that... but for compatibility with existing force feedback standards, it's probably easiest to just liscence the tech from Immersion, and that is what most companies (Logitech, Saitek, etc) do. Or at least they have since the patents became final in 2000 or so, for sure... MS even liscenced Immersion force feedback tech for their force feedback PC joysticks. And quickly gave up when Immersion came after them for their console stuff too. Only Sony thought they could get away without it... and failed. :)

Well that's a little annoying...

It's a pretty safe bet Sony has every intention of remodelling their rumble tech in some way though. And, let's keep it clear, this patent issue isn't over full force feedback, just the controller shaky kind.

Quote:And, let's keep it clear, this patent issue isn't over full force feedback, just the controller shaky kind.

Yes, but that's basically scaled down force feedback.

Quote:Well that's a little annoying...

What, precisely?

That awful boomarang is just a concept controller. I'm 99% sure that it will not be the final design. And the shape of the controller doesn't have anything to do with this anyway.

Smoke, i'm thinking the entire reason Sony opted to show the PS3 with that Boomerang is because it was currently in an appeal. As opposed to showing it with a PS2 dual shock controller (which the boomerang is, just with an odd shell) and then have to pull it when the appeal was lost. If that's true, then i'm thinking that the boomerang is more than just a placeholder controller and is something that is actually in development as the 'new' dual shock (for PS2 and 3)

But what would the shape of the controller have to do with it? All they have to do is change how the force feedback works enough to get around any future lawsuits.

Yes, what does the shape have to do with anything lazy?

Why would they even make a controller like that in the first place, unless there was some reason why they couldn't use the Dual-Shock?

that's what i'm saying, by showing a noticeably different controller they avoided the possibility of having to change the dual shock mid-stream before officially unveiling the system. Obviously if it is an actual controller in development then it would be using a different force feedback system. what i was saying is that the design they're currently using for the boomerang is based off a PS1 third party controller that probably doesn't even have rumble features.

Right now sony's in a world of hurt, and they didnt want any of that to reflect on the PS3, so they plopped a boomerang next to it and pretended everything was fine while we scratched our heads. It's very possible that the new dual shock will look exactly like the old one, but internally as some of you know controller shells are built to house specific boards and mounts, to change the innards to a different design would mean changinging the boards and mounts as well, why not release a totally new shape and style then and dubb it the Dual Shock 3? Sony wanted us to recognize the boomerang for some reason, allowing press to take pictures of the controller from multiple angles, etc, so it's going to be used for something, whether its the new dual shock for PS2 or the alpha controller for PS3 (or a controller for all 3 systems, which i can see happening too).

I like the boomerang... reminds me a bit of my MS Sidewinder Gamepad, which was fantastic... oh, it's still stupid for having the dpad and analog stick in their old archaic positions and not the better GC/Xbox/DC/etc position that is so much better, and for continuing to have only four face buttons and no triggers (all serious flaws), but still, it looks a lot more interesting than the boring old Dual Shock, which I never liked anyway...