Tendo City

Yeah, it's out today. Go buy it.

I admit I'm tempted. It looks damned cool.

It's by the people who did Ico... PS2 owners should get it.

To not play ICO and Shadow of the Colossus is a CRIME.

There, I said it.

How about playing ICO and being bored out my mind?

I don't think you wanted to say that...

Quote:How about playing ICO and being bored out my mind?

Yes, that's also a crime.

I should eventually finish Ico. I played until the first save point and then went on to other games.

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Haha, not even a mention of Hawk. No one takes an animal themed super hero seriously.

Quote:I should eventually finish Ico. I played until the first save point and then went on to other games.

The best part of the game is last 2 hours, and the rest are great.

So...no one besides me has this game?

I finally picked this game up...just finished off the first two colossus. It's one of the most satisfying game experiences I've had this generation.

I've heard it's short so I'm going to take my time with it.

Hey, ABF, got get a PS2, okay?

$130 new, $100 used? Maybe when it's $50-$60 like a Gamecube is...

By the time you finally get a PS2, the PS4 will be out...

Sure some of the games are worth playing, but I don't like Sony, the system, the controller, etc... I'll probably get one someday, but not now.

Quote:but I don't like Sony, the system, the controller, etc

Sony hate aside, the controller is okay [even if it hasn't changed since 1995] and there's nothing at all wrong with the system itself [as long as you get the redisigned version].

I just got Shadow of the Colossus for Christmas, but with the backlog of games I have it might not see play for a while.

DMiller Wrote:I just got Shadow of the Colossus for Christmas, but with the backlog of games I have it might not see play for a while.

If you turn it on and go beat the first colossus I'd bet you'd move SotC pretty high up on your play list.

Quote:Sony hate aside, the controller is okay [even if it hasn't changed since 1995] and there's nothing at all wrong with the system itself [as long as you get the redisigned version].

Sony hate is significant, the controller is badly designed (as I have said many times) and worse than either the Xbox or GC controllers (X360? Haven't used it much, but it seems exactly the same as a PS1-analog/2/3 pad layout, except with real triggers for the lower shoulder buttons, which maybe gives it a very slight edge...), and as for the system... yeah, the PStwo sounds better made, but all the stories about how many PS2s failed so quickly... (X360 sounds like it has real issues too, looking more recently...)

Quote:but all the stories about how many PS2s failed so quickly...

They failed mostly because of the slot-loader, which was terribly designed. This was fixed with the redesign.

And Sony hate is ridiculous. Also, there's nothing wrong with the controller.

Quote:And Sony hate is ridiculous. Also, there's nothing wrong with the controller.

I know Nintendo has done bad things before, but in recent times Sony is so much worse... they fully deserve any dislike they get. One thing that helped convince me to get the PS1 was thinking that buying used stuff doesn't give Sony any money... :) (I know it'd be the same for the PS2, but at much higher cost that I didn't want to pay then.)

As for the controller... do I have to go through it again? Split d-pad, six face buttons, dual shoulder buttons, no triggers, d-pad above analog stick... I could also mention the nearly-useless idea of the right analog stick, but you'd probably defend that idea, though I can't think of much of anything that actually uses the thing in a substantive way... (it's more "Ooh, they have TWO analog sticks instead of one! That's so much better!")

You are such a hater, Brian.

Ape Escape uses it just fine. Really adding a second stick was a great idea that was just never used during the PS1 lifespan. But now? Name a single game that doesn't use the second analog stick.

It's pretty much essential for console FPSs these days.

Quote:Ape Escape uses it just fine. Really adding a second stick was a great idea that was just never used during the PS1 lifespan. But now? Name a single game that doesn't use the second analog stick.

On the Gamecube? If it's used, it's just camera controls that are not much different from button camera controls were on the N64... and a lot of games don't use it at all... most, actually, as I said...

Quote:It's pretty much essential for console FPSs these days.

Metroid Prime says you are wrong.

Quote:Metroid Prime says you are wrong.

Now, I love MP, but it's not the same thing at all. MP relies heavily on adventure elements with much less emphasis on the "running-and-gunning" that you see in almost all standard FPS's. It's the exception to the rule, nothing more.

It would, perhaps, be possible to substitute the d-pad for the left analog stick [movement] and, in that way, have an FPS that only uses one analog stick. However, you're still giving up some amount of control that there's really not need to give up. Virtually every console FPS past the days of the N64 uses the dual-analog control scheme, that is a fact.

It's also a fact that I own none of those games, and for very good reason. FPSes are only good on mouse and keyboard. As you say Metroid Prime is not really a normal FPS... yeah, I did enjoy Perfect Dark on N64, but like with any console FPS I know it would have been far better, and far more easily controlled, on PC...

A Black Falcon Wrote:It's also a fact that I own none of those games, and for very good reason. FPSes are only good on mouse and keyboard. As you say Metroid Prime is not really a normal FPS... yeah, I did enjoy Perfect Dark on N64, but like with any console FPS I know it would have been far better, and far more easily controlled, on PC...

It's too bad you think that. FPS have worked quite well on consoles for several years now.

It's every bit as bas as I know it is, actually. I've tried to play a few console FPSes every once in a while... such a horrible experience... mouse and keyboard is so infinitely superior that there is nothing whatsoever to debate. You can actually AIM! Wow!

I've played FPS's on consoles and PC's for years and I've never had a problem aiming. The fact that you can't shows that you have very little ability to adapt to different control schemes.

Or that you played one or two dual-analog FPS's and found the controls difficult and just quit right there instead of sticking with it.

Great Rumbler Wrote:I've played FPS's on consoles and PC's for years and I've never had a problem aiming. The fact that you can't shows that you have very little ability to adapt to different control schemes.

Or that you played one or two dual-analog FPS's and found the controls difficult and just quit right there instead of sticking with it.

Yeah, there are some FPS that don't work so well with a controller. The majority of them, however, are more than adequate adaptations. Doom 3, Half-Life 2, Halo, F.E.A.R, Far Cry, and Timesplitters are examples of FPS that work wonderfully with a controller. I don't debate that a Mouse +KB provides faster, more accurate control though.

Quote:Yeah, there are some FPS that don't work so well with a controller. The majority of them, however, are more than adequate adaptations. Doom 3, Half-Life 2, Halo, F.E.A.R, Far Cry, and Timesplitters are examples of FPS that work wonderfully with a controller. I don't debate that a Mouse +KB provides faster, more accurate control though.

I can't understand why anyone would ever prefer a gamepad to a mouse and keyboard for FPSes... the difference is so huge...

Quote:Or that you played one or two dual-analog FPS's and found the controls difficult and just quit right there instead of sticking with it.

While certainly true, why, exactly, should I spend that time when it's a genre that I only play infrequently (either on PC or console -- I buy maybe one FPS a year, and that's probably an over-estimation...), the PC controls are so vastly superior, and almost all of the FPSes actually worth buying are on PC anyway?

My most recent FPS purchase was Turok: Rage Wars for N64 earlier this year, which I found simple but fun enough to be worth the $3 or whatever... like PD though I almost certainly wouldn't like it as much if it was dual analog...

A Black Falcon Wrote:I can't understand why anyone would ever prefer a gamepad to a mouse and keyboard for FPSes... the difference is so huge...

For me, it's not that I don't want the KB +Mouse, it's that I very much prefer sitting on my living room floor than in a computer desk chair.

Quote:While certainly true, why, exactly, should I spend that time when it's a genre that I only play infrequently (either on PC or console -- I buy maybe one FPS a year, and that's probably an over-estimation...), the PC controls are so vastly superior, and almost all of the FPSes actually worth buying are on PC anyway?

My most recent FPS purchase was Turok: Rage Wars for N64 earlier this year, which I found simple but fun enough to be worth the $3 or whatever... like PD though I almost certainly wouldn't like it as much if it was dual analog...

ugh...I tried playing the original PD just recently. I couldn't do it. I've been spoiled by dual analog.

Quote:I can't understand why anyone would ever prefer a gamepad to a mouse and keyboard for FPSes... the difference is so huge...

Who's talking about preferences here? You said that the dual-analog controller scheme is horribly broken. IT'S NOT.

Quote:like PD though I almost certainly wouldn't like it as much if it was dual analog...

Movement with the analog stick and aiming by pressing the R-button? No way could I ever go back to that for any length of time, at least not on a fast-paced FPS. Dual-analog is far superior to that.

Quote:Movement with the analog stick and aiming by pressing the R-button? No way could I ever go back to that for any length of time, at least not on a fast-paced FPS. Dual-analog is far superior to that.

Erm.. N64? Aiming with analog stick and movement with C-buttons?

Metroid works because of the autoaim and because it isn't paced like an FPS...

Quote:Who's talking about preferences here? You said that the dual-analog controller scheme is horribly broken. IT'S NOT.

Compared to mouse and keyboard for FPSes, it's no good. And with the only other real use of the left analog stick most of the time being the camera (something that I always prefer to be auto-controlled, though manual controls are useful at times too, I don't want to have to be constantly messing with the camera just in order to play a game...)... (yeah, there are some games that use dual analog controls better. Still, the right analog stick just isn't that useful most of the time... half of the GC games that actually use the thing use it as button replacement (basic camera controls no better than N64-style c-button ones, auto-moves in fighting games, c-button replacement in OoT, etc...)...

Quote:Erm.. N64? Aiming with analog stick and movement with C-buttons?

It's been a while since I've played an FPS on the N64. But how on Earth is that better than dual-analog? You're still aiming with an analog stick!! The only difference is that using an analog stick for movement gives you more precise [and more comfortable] control over your character.

Quote:Compared to mouse and keyboard for FPSes, it's no good.

Not AS good.

While a mouse works better for aiming, using a joystick for pure movement is better than using 4 direction buttons on a keyboard.

Quote:It's been a while since I've played an FPS on the N64. But how on Earth is that better than dual-analog? You're still aiming with an analog stick!! The only difference is that using an analog stick for movement gives you more precise [and more comfortable] control over your character.

I know it's "more precise" to move with an analog stick, but being used to PC where you use keyboard for movement, the N64's layout is more familiar for me than a dual-analog one... and really, the difference is not that huge. Digital works fine for movement... yeah, you lose a bit of precision over your speed (usually with just a run/walk toggle or something, for a PC game), but really, I don't think that that makes much of an impact on the gameplay, unlike mouse vs. analog stick for aiming/looking.

Quote:like PD though I almost certainly wouldn't like it as much if it was dual analog...

Quote:Digital works fine for movement... yeah, you lose a bit of precision over your speed

Quote:the N64's layout is more familiar for me than a dual-analog one... and really, the difference is not that huge.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about anymore.

... that I don't think digital buttons for movement is a problem, perhaps?

You admit that an analog stick for movement WOULD be better [by a small, almost immeasurable amount], where before you said that if PD had dual-analog you would not like it nearly as much. THAT makes no sense.

I said that it might be better objectively, but I prefer buttons, so for me it's not really...

Why would you want to control your character on screen with buttons if you didn't have to?

Oh come on, you're just being difficult for no reason. I've already said that I don't think the difference is that significant and that the fact that I'm much more used to buttons for movement is much more relevant than any minor loss in movement controls... what more is there really to say on the issue?

I just know that I can play N64 FPSes without too much trouble but always do horribly at dual analog ones... maybe part of that is because I don't have any, but still, that won't make me suddenly like dual analog any more. :)

As I've said before... the N64 controller (as well as ones like my PC pads or the Genesis 6-button/Saturn) got it right. It's too bad that controller design has gotten away from that. The official Genesis 6-button controller (not the later not as good turbo one, the standard one) is still one of the best, and most comfortable, controllers I have ever held...

Quote:maybe part of that is because I don't have any

I think that's the problem.

I've been playing dual-analog FPS's for several years now; although, most of my FPS playing comes in the form of PC titles. And I do not have any problem using it at all. It WORKS. Settling for four c-buttons and one analog stick is a step back that doesn't need to be taken.

Quote:I think that's the problem.

Maybe, maybe not... don't wait up for me to get one anytime soon, though. That's not something that's likely to happen in the near future. :)

I've become pretty used to full analog movement in those sorts of games. It's also for much greater range of possible diagonal movement.

1) Use mouse to aim view in the direction you wish to go.
2) Press W to move in that direction. A and D strafe, S goes backwards.

I'd say that one of the only reasons the keyboard is still used in FPS's is because that you can't exactly use a gamepad with a mouse and using a keyboard gives you access to more buttons, but not because it's the most ideal way to move your character on screen.

Since direction is controlled with the mouse, the only thing you lose is speed control, having to make do with a run/walk toggle, and really, that's not so bad... but yes, the fact that holding a gamepad and a mouse at once doesn't work well is also part of the reason. :)