Tendo City

lazyfatbum Wrote:I wish I could remember where I read it, but at the time it was on multiple game news sites. But basically the vast majority of people who bought a PS2 (from launch to the time of the article a few months ago) were newcomers.

I'll have to research this now that you said it. Very interesting if true.

Quote:This didn't surprise me, most of the people who bought a SNES were newcomers. I agree that ATLEAST half the PS2 owners will get a PS3, most likely more than that (Sony, without question, is on fire right now) But the majority of casual gamers, Sony's bread and butter, are not in to the politics of gaming.

Like I said, they dont care about reading a review, looking for polished games or looking for specific developers or publishers; They'll go wherever the games with the "it" factor are - If their friends talk about, if it's mentioned on the Daily Show, if the commercial is awesome, they'll be ready and waiting money-in-hand. In otherwords, if the PS3 losses popularity most people in the Sony camp (casual gamers) will drop it like it's hot and either quit gaming all together or get the system that does have the 'it' factor - The same games, the same publishers, just different consoles. This is extremely frightening to people in this industry, because that's exactly what happened when the industry crashed in the late 70's and early 80's.

There will of course be hardcore fans of Sony, but hardcore Nintendo fans have the numbers that Sony does not. I expect that to change with PS3, but i'm not sure how it will change. There's only two schools of thinking on the matter: It will be great or it will suck hard. Some people cant wait, and some people are jumping off of Sony's boat like it's sinking. Only time will tell what the outcome will be but it's completely grey right now.

I'd have to take your word for it that the majority of the Playstation fans are as fickle as you say in order to agree with you. I think, or would like to think anyway, that they're a bit more educated than that. If what you say is true then yes, it's scary.

Quote:Perhaps, Sony's membership fee of 16 million PLUS development costs will ensure quality games. But they're going to destroy the very market they thrive in, the one they created, by doing so. All those people who just want the new Harry Potter game or the sports game with updated roster or that game with the hot chick on the box are going to be left in the cold if the devs who manufacture these games dont want to pay the membership fee.

Nah, they'll just go over to the cheaper to develop for Xbox 360 which we are seeing happen right now. Just yesterday or the day before two previously exclusive PS3 games, Brothers in Arms and Assassin, were announced to be in development for Xbox 360 now as well. The tides could definitely be changing...

Quote:Come to think of it, the tables are turning. Sony is going the route of 'It must be sparkly expensive goodness' and Nintendo is saying 'We're cheaper to dev for, bring on the garage games!'

I know, and I'm a little excited for the notion as well. Not to see Sony fail, because that would be bad (another industry where MS rules is not something that should happen), but to see smaller 'garage' games that don't depend on a fat budget. Ones that are perhaps easily accessible and allow for fun pick up and play.

Quote:It's going to be very, very interesting. But in regards to your question, I was talking more specifically about the mentality of the consumers and how that "it" factor can be extremely messy when you're talking about a $10 billion+ a year industry that could lose it's bottom very quickly if the majority of it's base are casual who buy a game based on how much media buzz it gets. Popularity is a factor that no company can generate directly (though they try), it's entirely in the hands of consumers, and right now, if popularity for Sony bottomed out (dont think it cant happen), the entire industry would fall.

It would be like if Japan had a stock market crash, the entire world would feel it.

The shock would be felt but I think Microsoft could very easily pick up the pieces since they are more or less vying for the same demographic audience, and these days there are hardly any third party games you can't find on both the Xbox and PS2.

Quote:Comeback from what? Lack of popularity? That's not entirely Nintendo's fault, that's up to consumers. I know you're not talking about money... Nintendo makes money regardless of anything. It's a company that is over 100 years old, they could shut down all video game manufacturing and still be making money. But despite the lack of popularity among key demographics, they're still #2 worldwide. Did you watch the E3 video? I did some research on that pie chart, Nintendo seriously has 90% of the market counting all consoles and more importantly all handhelds. Kids at the mall talk shit about Nintendo and how Sony is so much better but Sony or MS could only dream of having the piece of pie that Nintendo has. Maybe another 4 or 5 generations from now, but no time soon.

Nintendo can be blamed for the decisions they made over the past decade (quality control, catridge format, high royalty fees) that put Sony is such a position to simply show up and take over. They put themselves in that position, unintentionally of course.

You're going to have to fill me in on where you got the 90% figure, cause it's not adding up for me. What do you mean counting all consoles? Like NES -> Gamecube (including handhelds?)? Or current consoles and handhelds?

Which E3 video are you referring to? I only watched the G4 presentation that had highlights, so I probably missed it.

First... great long post Lazy... :)

Revolution controller... Nintendo has said that it'll onclude a nunchuck in the box (that is, the remote and the analog stick attachment.) That pair gives you four main buttons, two or three menu buttons, the freehand movement, an analog stick, and a dpad right above the main button (use that for four more controls). Including the dpad, that makes for ten buttons... or one more than Gamecube has... so I fail to see how the new controller alone is completely useless for ported games. Yes, some won't work well at all. And that's why we'll have the shell. But I think that more than you expect will be playable with just the freehand and analog stick attachment.

As for whether a shell will come in the box... that's a good question. The main things that make me say "probably"are the facts that N64 and SNES games will have problems adapting to the new controller (it could be done, but it would not be very comfortable or ideal, to say the least), and that many third party games will similarly be designed for standard controllers and would also not adapt that well. The main reason I think 'possibly not'? Because Nintendo wants to keep things simple and emphasize this new controller, and including the standard one in the box too would somewhat undermine both of those goals. But in the end, at least in the US, I do see them including one (shell). Not definitely, but likely.

Quote:I suppose that depends who you talk to. I know many people who just don't like the Gamecube controller (the biggest complaint is that it's too small), and I'm not sure it brought anything new to video game scene.

I know Nintendo received some backlash for their controllers (namely the N64 and GC controllers) from developers, but the complaints have been minimal and are mostly caused by the button layout. Miyamoto said it himself that the N64 controller was designed specifically for Mario 64. That does reinforce the notion that Nintendo doesn't always act with everyone else in mind, such has been the case with different formats as well, and it does tend to alienate game developers. What of everyone else who wants to make games for the Nintendo console? Can Nintendo win back third parties to create a more desireable console, one that doesn't primarily feature Nintendo made games?

I don't understand what there is to complain about with the N64 controller... analog stick or dpad, six face buttons, two shoulder buttons... what could be better? Yeah, just about nothing. :) Perfect for just about any genre or type of game.

As for the GC, I would agree that that didn't advance controller design one bit. It's a perfectly decent controller, but "large A button with the others around it" isn't exactly innovation anyone has any interest in following up on... (not that I dislike the design, but that it's not particluarly innovative and no one else is copying Nintendo's idea)

Quote:Like I said, they dont care about reading a review, looking for polished games or looking for specific developers or publishers; They'll go wherever the games with the "it" factor are - If their friends talk about, if it's mentioned on the Daily Show, if the commercial is awesome, they'll be ready and waiting money-in-hand. In otherwords, if the PS3 losses popularity most people in the Sony camp (casual gamers) will drop it like it's hot and either quit gaming all together or get the system that does have the 'it' factor - The same games, the same publishers, just different consoles. This is extremely frightening to people in this industry, because that's exactly what happened when the industry crashed in the late 70's and early 80's.

This is the group Microsoft is trying so hard to steal away from Sony... I'm not sure if it's going to work, but they'll almost certainly make some ground on it. The X360 is first and has a nice lineup of games... sure most of the purchasers will be harder-core gamers, but it'll pick up popular momentum, especially if the PS3 is farther away from US release than some think... (that is, if it isn't coming out in the US next spring, but just Japan, and the US release is later) As for Nintendo... if Sony launches early, like next spring, and Nintendo is in the summer or fall, there is a danger of falling behind. I know that they've made it a goal this time to not fall behind, but I'm worried that we know nothing more than just "2006"... at least Sony is saying "Spring", even if we don't know the specifics of which region(s) are getting it in Spring.

Anyway, I'd say that MS taking the market is more likely than another crash in the near future. I mean, I guess it could happen, but it just doesn't seem very likely... the Japanese market may be struggling, but the US one isn't there yet, and I don't think it will be (or rather, I don't think it'll have the potential to be) there for some years to come. Games as they are now are going well, even if it does mean a huge lack of innovation, new ideas, non-liscenced/sequel titles, etc...

Quote:There will of course be hardcore fans of Sony, but hardcore Nintendo fans have the numbers that Sony does not. I expect that to change with PS3, but i'm not sure how it will change. There's only two schools of thinking on the matter: It will be great or it will suck hard. Some people cant wait, and some people are jumping off of Sony's boat like it's sinking. Only time will tell what the outcome will be but it's completely grey right now.

Perhaps, Sony's membership fee of 16 million PLUS development costs will ensure quality games. But they're going to destroy the very market they thrive in, the one they created, by doing so. All those people who just want the new Harry Potter game or the sports game with updated roster or that game with the hot chick on the box are going to be left in the cold if the devs who manufacture these games dont want to pay the membership fee.

Yes, this is a very good question. There do seem to be more doubters of Sony this time than there were for PS2, that's for sure... but how will it translate to sales? As you say, there are too many things we don't know... but it is interesting to see the issues like the people who dislike the controller (I have no problem with the PS3 controller... looks nice, other than the fact it's still got the PS1/2 button layout...), the shape of the system, those development costs (that's a good question -- will that mean better games, or will it mean fewer games on the PS3 and more for X360 as people take advantage of Microsoft's more permissive standards? PS2 already has problems with Sony not allowing some games to be sold (like some 2d PS2 games, allowed in Japan but not in the US... so Metal Slug 3, for instance, is only on Xbox in the US.)... will that get worse this time? And will that affect sales (it didn't much with PS1 or PS2, obviously)?

A Black Falcon Wrote:Revolution controller... Nintendo has said that it'll onclude a nunchuck in the box (that is, the remote and the analog stick attachment.) That pair gives you four main buttons, two or three menu buttons, the freehand movement, an analog stick, and a dpad right above the main button (use that for four more controls). Including the dpad, that makes for ten buttons... or one more than Gamecube has... so I fail to see how the new controller alone is completely useless for ported games. Yes, some won't work well at all. And that's why we'll have the shell. But I think that more than you expect will be playable with just the freehand and analog stick attachment.

I never said it doesn't have enough buttons. It's the function that I'm concerned with. Is it comfortable, does it make sense, is it just as good or better than 360 or PS3 functionallity.

Don't take the shell for granted. If it's not included with the system then I wouldn't count on it being widely used.

I've already said I'm quite ignorant to the implications of the new controller, but I also know you're just as much in the dark as I am. I'll just sit back and wait for some solid information rather than get my hopes up.

Quote:I don't understand what there is to complain about with the N64 controller... analog stick or dpad, six face buttons, two shoulder buttons... what could be better? Yeah, just about nothing. :) Perfect for just about any genre or type of game.

I read complaints, and they are valid whether you approve of them or not.

Quote:As for the GC, I would agree that that didn't advance controller design one bit. It's a perfectly decent controller, but "large A button with the others around it" isn't exactly innovation anyone has any interest in following up on... (not that I dislike the design, but that it's not particluarly innovative and no one else is copying Nintendo's idea)

It's decent as in it works, but it's not ideal for fighters as one example. Plus developers have commented that they had to change up the button functions specifically for GC ports due to the layout. Minimal complaints, but complaints none the less.

Does it really bother you, ABF, to think that Nintendo isn't perfect?

Quote:I read complaints, and they are valid whether you approve of them or not.

What complaints? Other than idiocy like? It's too complex and I don't know which of the things to hold when I first pick it up (takes like five minuites to figure out...), I can't think of anything...

Quote:I never said it doesn't have enough buttons. It's the function that I'm concerned with. Is it comfortable, does it make sense, is it just as good or better than 360 or PS3 functionallity.

Don't take the shell for granted. If it's not included with the system then I wouldn't count on it being widely used.

I've already said I'm quite ignorant to the implications of the new controller, but I also know you're just as much in the dark as I am. I'll just sit back and wait for some solid information rather than get my hopes up.

You'll pretty much need one for SNES and N64 downloads, as well as many third-party titles, so I am sure that they will be widely available and widely used. No question about it.

As for the last part, it sure looks like what you'd really rather do is criticize it instead of think of how it could be good for the industry.

Quote:It's decent as in it works, but it's not ideal for fighters as one example. Plus developers have commented that they had to change up the button functions specifically for GC ports due to the layout. Minimal complaints, but complaints none the less.

And thats why there is the shell... it's not very complex... (as for the GC layout, oh well. It works well enough. Not perfect, but not bad either.)

A Black Falcon Wrote:What complaints? Other than idiocy like? It's too complex and I don't know which of the things to hold when I first pick it up (takes like five minuites to figure out...), I can't think of anything...

Ever picked up a controller you didn't like?

Quote:You'll pretty much need one for SNES and N64 downloads, as well as many third-party titles, so I am sure that they will be widely available and widely used. No question about it.

You're taking it for granted that everyone, or a majority, will want to download old games.

Quote:As for the last part, it sure looks like what you'd really rather do is criticize it instead of think of how it could be good for the industry.

How good it could be for the industry? Dear lord, Nintendo has brainwashed you into thinking there is a problem with the industry. It's thriving in case you didn't know, and it's expected to grow. I'm sure you'll try to sell me some doomsday prediction, but, please, spare me. I'm enjoying the current generation and I'm pleased with what I've seen of the next generation.

EDIT: I realize that, if successful, Nintendo could help the industry grow in a new direction.

I've only talked in probability based on the current situation and with the little information we know. I've repeated myself at least three times now that it could work very well and be embraced or fall wayward. It could also land somewhere comfortably inbetween those two extremes.

The new controller is not proven, and I've not played anything like it. How can you be so adamant about something you know so little about? I suspect only because Nintendo is behind it, but please feel free to correct me.

I *really* like the GC face-button layout. It's forced alot of developers to create context sensitive buttons in games which was first used in Zelda: OoT where one button changes functions depending on what you're doing or what you're interacting with. The Kidney bean buttons work beautiful in the 12 and 3oclock with that tiny B button feeling like the perfect secondary. If A is jump, B will be attack and it feels really natural.

The tiny camera stick works great for games that have a user-controlled camera. Or if it's being used for quick stabs in a direction to dodge, change weapons, etc. But for movement or looking in a FPS it's pretty krappy, my finger always slips off.

Z-Button. No one ever used this button as it was intended. It's a 'switch' button, like 'switch to stealth mode' or turn something on or off. It felt great in Time Splitters where you could hit Z to activate the auto-spin on the mini-gun. Even Nintendo didn't know how to work with the odd little button, it usually became the 'show map' button. But there are a few games that 'got it'. Z is the perfect button to turn a flashlight on or off, activate night vision, toggle a crawl or crouch mode, toggle a gun's secondary (instead of using two face buttons... idiots), it's a little piece of genius that could have been awesome. Sadly, we'll probably never see it again on future consoles.

but the feature that gets the award for innovation in the GC controller is the clickable shoulder buttons. Fully anal, with actual degrees of movement, with a satisfying click at the end. Again, barely used by developers, it would have been perfect for any racing game where you put gas on R, and once you hit that click it flushes nitro through the engine, but if you do it to soon you'll flood it. Take a hard turn in F-Zero while holding L, click it to activate the Right brake to spin on a dime, Press R to aim your uzi (recieve a reticle) while still being able to move - click it to hold the uzi with hands. Movement is restricted but aiming and accuracy improves. Pure genius.

The GC controller is not as ground breaking as the N64 controller as much as it is an evolution. But out of all the controllers on the market, it is definitively the most comfortable. If anyone complains that it's too small, then they must hate the PS2 controller even more. The GC controller feels like absolute sex in your hands, I just wish developers took more of an interest in GC.

Speaking of N64; Miyamoto did say that the N64 controller was designed around Mario 64, a game where you:

-Run in full analog
-Climb, wade, slide, crawl through every terrain imaginable (each one effecting your mobility)
-tiptoe, using analog to sneak (the first game to have this ability)
-swim in full 3-D with realistic physics
-fly with full pitch, yaw and tilt with realistic physics
-Interact with every imaginable prop and enemy type
-Has multiple variations of gameplay type, racing, treausre hunting, puzzle solving, platforming, throw in a little RPG elements to mix up gameplay and even it all out with the goal of 3 major boss fights (and a few mini bosses)

So just how versatile is the Mario 64 engine? It was reused in: (alphabetical because i'm bored yay!)

1080 Snowboarding
Bomberman 64 (& Hero)
F-Zero X (I shit a gold brick too)
Hey You, Pikachu!
Ken Griffey Jr.'s Slugfest
Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards
Mario Golf
Mario Kart 64
Mario Party (1, 2 & 3)
Mischief Makers
Pokemon Snap
Pokemon Stadium (& 2)
Star Wars: Shadow of the Empire
Super Smash Bros
Wave Race 64
Zelda: OoT
Zelda: MM
And a bunch of others I forget

So yes the N64 controller was designed specifically for Mario 64; A game that had everything except first person shooting, which Rare was sure to prove it would work pretty well there too. :D *plays PD for half an hour then comes back totally forgetting what I was posting* So... how is the controller being designed for Mario 64 a 'bad thing'? :D It's basically how any large dev house runs their content, you make one uber game that is using an engine that you can apply all your current and near-future projects to create a kind of painters pallette. From that one game, you'll be able to quickly release all your content.

Rare: the Blast Corps engine is the DKR engine = the JFG engine which before was the B~K engine that became the Dinosaur Planet engine that was almost entirely scrapped and rebuilt when hardware changed... engine that was taken out of the trash and used again for Conker's Big Fucking Deal that is being reused on Xbox TWICE with the BFD remake and a little game called Grabbed by the Ghoulies, Kameo from what I understand is a totally new engine.

*brain falls out*

... Mischief Makers used the Mario 64 engine?

Wow, I got over the GCN controller a long time ago. The analog triggers do give you a lot of tactile feedback so you know when you have "bottomed out", but other than that it's the exact same function as any analog trigger. Note I said function, not design. However, tactile feedback is important.

As for the button layout... That's a 6 button layout that's missing the upper left and upper right buttons. You realize that right? Oh sure, you can use the argument that it forces innovative use of the buttons, but I never once saw that in action.

And the Z button... No matter what defense you use, that button is badly placed. It is too hard to press, and there is no excuse for that.

lazyfatbum Wrote:I *really* like the GC face-button layout. It's forced alot of developers to create context sensitive buttons in games which was first used in Zelda: OoT where one button changes functions depending on what you're doing or what you're interacting with. The Kidney bean buttons work beautiful in the 12 and 3oclock with that tiny B button feeling like the perfect secondary. If A is jump, B will be attack and it feels really natural.

The tiny camera stick works great for games that have a user-controlled camera. Or if it's being used for quick stabs in a direction to dodge, change weapons, etc. But for movement or looking in a FPS it's pretty krappy, my finger always slips off.

Z-Button. No one ever used this button as it was intended. It's a 'switch' button, like 'switch to stealth mode' or turn something on or off. It felt great in Time Splitters where you could hit Z to activate the auto-spin on the mini-gun. Even Nintendo didn't know how to work with the odd little button, it usually became the 'show map' button. But there are a few games that 'got it'. Z is the perfect button to turn a flashlight on or off, activate night vision, toggle a crawl or crouch mode, toggle a gun's secondary (instead of using two face buttons... idiots), it's a little piece of genius that could have been awesome. Sadly, we'll probably never see it again on future consoles.

but the feature that gets the award for innovation in the GC controller is the clickable shoulder buttons. Fully anal, with actual degrees of movement, with a satisfying click at the end. Again, barely used by developers, it would have been perfect for any racing game where you put gas on R, and once you hit that click it flushes nitro through the engine, but if you do it to soon you'll flood it. Take a hard turn in F-Zero while holding L, click it to activate the Right brake to spin on a dime, Press R to aim your uzi (recieve a reticle) while still being able to move - click it to hold the uzi with hands. Movement is restricted but aiming and accuracy improves. Pure genius.

The GC controller is not as ground breaking as the N64 controller as much as it is an evolution. But out of all the controllers on the market, it is definitively the most comfortable. If anyone complains that it's too small, then they must hate the PS2 controller even more. The GC controller feels like absolute sex in your hands, I just wish developers took more of an interest in GC.

Speaking of N64; Miyamoto did say that the N64 controller was designed around Mario 64, a game where you:

-Run in full analog
-Climb, wade, slide, crawl through every terrain imaginable (each one effecting your mobility)
-tiptoe, using analog to sneak (the first game to have this ability)
-swim in full 3-D with realistic physics
-fly with full pitch, yaw and tilt with realistic physics
-Interact with every imaginable prop and enemy type
-Has multiple variations of gameplay type, racing, treausre hunting, puzzle solving, platforming, throw in a little RPG elements to mix up gameplay and even it all out with the goal of 3 major boss fights (and a few mini bosses)

So just how versatile is the Mario 64 engine? It was reused in: (alphabetical because i'm bored yay!)

1080 Snowboarding
Bomberman 64 (& Hero)
F-Zero X (I shit a gold brick too)
Hey You, Pikachu!
Ken Griffey Jr.'s Slugfest
Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards
Mario Golf
Mario Kart 64
Mario Party (1, 2 & 3)
Mischief Makers
Pokemon Snap
Pokemon Stadium (& 2)
Star Wars: Shadow of the Empire
Super Smash Bros
Wave Race 64
Zelda: OoT
Zelda: MM
And a bunch of others I forget

So yes the N64 controller was designed specifically for Mario 64; A game that had everything except first person shooting, which Rare was sure to prove it would work pretty well there too. :D *plays PD for half an hour then comes back totally forgetting what I was posting* So... how is the controller being designed for Mario 64 a 'bad thing'? :D It's basically how any large dev house runs their content, you make one uber game that is using an engine that you can apply all your current and near-future projects to create a kind of painters pallette. From that one game, you'll be able to quickly release all your content.

Rare: the Blast Corps engine is the DKR engine = the JFG engine which before was the B~K engine that became the Dinosaur Planet engine that was almost entirely scrapped and rebuilt when hardware changed... engine that was taken out of the trash and used again for Conker's Big Fucking Deal that is being reused on Xbox TWICE with the BFD remake and a little game called Grabbed by the Ghoulies, Kameo from what I understand is a totally new engine.

*brain falls out*

I think the Controller S and the GC controllers are my favorite of this generation. I have always disliked the Playstation controllers, and I'm glad they're redesigning them. I hope the boomerang is comfortable.

You know, there are people who can like/dislike things just as you can, and developers can be thrown into that mix as well.

ABF/ Mischief Makers is the side scroller with 3-D graphics, yes? or am I thinking of a different game?

DJ/ it's not just a tactile feedback, the click on the triggers of the GC have a seperate signal not affiliated with the anal 'pulling' of the triggers. Basically, it's two more buttons. Try holding down R in Metroid Prime and click it. You lock on to an enemy, now let go slightly so that the 'button' is no longer pressed, and click it again. You'll switch targets. Try this too, while looking at something that can be locked on to, press R without clicking. You wont lock on but you'll be 'locked' in that direction, which is useful when being chased or attacked by multiple enemies where you dont want the 'camera' to go nuts trying to follow them around.

Basically, the GC controller has 21 inputs if you count the Camera Stick, Control Stick and D-Pad as seperate directions, which many games take advantage of. But most end up using the two sticks for movement or camera, so you cant really count them as seperate directions in those cases.

Quote:ABF/ Mischief Makers is the side scroller with 3-D graphics, yes? or am I thinking of a different game?

No, it's 2D.

I agree, the S-Type is a controller that should have launched with the system instead of the Duke which is a Dreamcast controller without a jump pak or VMU slot. remember when they first showed the X-Box? It was that giant silver X; The controller they showed at the time to let people play the first XBox games was a N64 controller. They said they felt that the N64 controller style would work the best. Nintendo didn't agree. :D So they stole Sega's pad. Then after months of complaining, we finally get a controller (taken from a PC controller) that isn't the size of the system itself.

I was really impressed when MS showed off the 360 controller, I think it's completely original. Both Nintendo and MS controllers will now offer the ability to turn the system on or off remotely... hooray for laziness :D

I've never heard of any developers complaining about the N64 controller. I can see some companies complaining towards its twlight when they went to port a 2-stick PS2 game and ran in to issues but it was the only analog controller on the market for almost a year. Saturn had one but it only worked on a few games. Developers were, at first anyway, extremely happy with Nintendo's design.

The GC controller, I remember reading some developers getting irked with the button layout. But the developers that were complaining were people like EA and LuxoFlux or whatever they're called. Not exactly the pinnacle of authority in matters of controller mechanics, these were companies that wanted to quickly and sloppily port their games with no thought past making it run on each console. They didn't want to actually apply any time (money) in to R&D.

However, remember when Luigi's Mansion was the talk of the town and everyone complained because you have to hold the controller in that weird config (middle finger on R, index curled up around to B) so you could quickly light a ghost and then suck em up (while still using both sticks)?

Miyamoto commented on it and said something like "You're not supposed to play the game that way, but it does work alot better!". So yeah, definitely some issues between what Nintendo (and other devs) want to accomplish in control schemes and the actual hardware.

I think Nintendo got frustrated with overhauling the same button layout over and over to make it unique while working around both thumbs and both indexes being occupied, I think that was the major straw that pushed Nintendo in to totally throwing out traditional ideas of controllers.

But it's a bitch to play a game (on any current gen console) where two sticks are used for movement AND face buttons are being used; In those cases, you have to give up an entire degree of movement, to hit another button... or hold it Luigi Style. :D Needless to say the N64 controller is still the best FPS (Turok style) controller on the market and the most like a mouse/keyboard setup but you still have to take your thumb off the camera buttons to open a door, change weapons, etc, it's just alot more fluid than current gen. This will all change with Revolution.

Quote:The GC controller... is decent as in it works, but it's not ideal for fighters as one example.

You're right, Super Smash Bros. Melee is a horrible game to control, as is Soul Calibur 3. The GC controller does not work at all with those games, despite the fact that the Game Cube version of SC3 sold more than any other version and that SSB:M has sold somewhere around 1 furkzillion copies. Okay enough sarcasm, traditional arena fighters NEED d-pad, that's a fact. The GC d-pad is tiny - I have little finger tips from playing piano but I have huge hands, so the GC d-pad is almost worthless to me.

I can imagine alot people feel that way. But I played SC3 with the control stick... and it worked great, better than the X-Box version with the full-sized d-pad imo. I was pulling off combos and moves with ease on the anal stick. I know ALOT of Dreamcasters who play SC with the stick (and can whoop my ass hard)

So I think what it all comes down to is that arena fighters need to phase out the d-pad and move in to anal sticks so we can stop putting d-pads on controllers, 80% of the games on the market dont use them. SSB:M is a joy to play, it's probably one of the most perfect games of it's type (you can argue it's the only game of its type) that showcases how awesome a stick can be as compared to D-Pads in a fighting/brawler. Using the GC controller playing SSB:M you FEEL like you're fighting - not inputting commands which is often the case with 'd-pad fighters'.

However, the best is neither of those devices. The best is an arcade stick. :D

Quote:How good it could be for the industry? Dear lord, Nintendo has brainwashed you into thinking there is a problem with the industry. It's thriving in case you didn't know, and it's expected to grow. I'm sure you'll try to sell me some doomsday prediction, but, please, spare me. I'm enjoying the current generation and I'm pleased with what I've seen of the next generation.

EDIT: I realize that, if successful, Nintendo could help the industry grow in a new direction.

ABF was specifically making two valid points: 1.) the market is currently stagnant.

Not that the games are bad, not at all, i'm not saying we're all going to explode or how th seas will boil; Sony, MS and Nintendo are doing beautifully. But there's too much of the same thing (producers dont want to risk anything, its happening in film too). I played a demo of Hulk in blockbuster and rented Ultimate Spiderman, which is Spiderman 2... with the Hulk engine for Venom, I shit you not. In the PS2 section, the entire wall was nothing but FPS and GTA clones with the occasional third person shooter that's either espionage-based or fantasy based. The only original game I saw in the PS2 section was a sign that said "Coming soon, Colossus" which is being touted as "Sony's answer to Zelda: TP". heh... back in the day they would have called it a 'Zelda killer'. They called Brave Fencer Musashi a Zelda Killer. :D

2.) *oh boy I get to repeat myself again! bare with me!* ahem, the Revolution controller will be the first controller that will allow players to interact in 3-D. A 3-D controller, for 3-D games. EVEN IF the nunchuck two handed design doesn't fit well, the shell design is definitely going to take hold. How do I know this? I guess I cant put it in to words... oh wait, you did it for me.

Quote:I suspect only because Nintendo is behind it, but please feel free to correct me.

The oldest most successful company who forged the industry out of ashes and consistantly generates industry standards with each generation? I think you hit it right on the head. :D Dont get me wrong; all one has to do is point to the Virtual Boy to show a total failure on Nintendo's part, or as you said the high royalty costs, choosing carts over CD's, etc. All mistakes definitely, but mistakes that Nintendo learned from.

Does it really bother you, ABF, to think that Nintendo isn't perfect?

Would it bother you if we thought they are? Maybe perfect isn't the right word, let's replace "perfect" with "the best." There, that about sums it up. :D

Quote:You're taking it for granted that everyone, or a majority, will want to download old games.

Are.... are you... joking? :D Have you been watching this industry for the past 5 years? :D Nintendo unveils a GBA SP that looks like an NES along with the 'Classic' Series. Full priced 20 year old games that many of which, for a month or two, were in the top ten sales in America, Europe and especially Japan.

NES game hunting in Animal Crossing causes such a mass panic that Nintendo is forced to release codes on their website to give people the NES games; in the words of many people who signed such petitions to have the codes released "I got Animal Crossing JUST FOR the NES games!"

Go to *any* department store, look in the toy section, not the game's section; Retro gamingpalooza, Atari, Intellivision, Master System, Genesis, old arcade, shit I even saw Pong :D Spyhunter on PS2 and Xbox outsold the GC version simply because it had the unlockable of the original Spyhunter and "the GC disk didn't allow for us to put a 1 kb game on it because Sony and MS are fingering our male g-spot" (i'm paraphrasing)

Nintendo isn't just masturbating themselves by proclaiming "D/l our old shit!" They're doing it because consumers are begging for it. The other cool thing is, alot of players today sprouted up in either the PSX or PS2 days and never owned a N64. That's like 700 games that people never got to play. Same for SNES to a lesser extent towards it's twlight as people were drooling over the Ridge Racer and Tekken screenshots from Saturn and PSX. "The 800 dollar orgasm". :D

Retro is in, baby! Retrolution! *giant flying lava lamps and laser show, pet rocks invade Cuba - Bacon, Reagan, Palestine, terror on the airlines, marshall law the color wars, i cant take it anymore, we didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning*

Sorry, I thought Mischief Makers was this game:

http://www.nintendoland.com/home2.htm?re...emon_2.htm

Quote:The only original game I saw in the PS2 section was a sign that said "Coming soon, Colossus" which is being touted as "Sony's answer to Zelda: TP".

That's doesn't really make any sense. Colossus has SOME similiarites with Twilight Princess, but they're hardly THAT similar. I'll be getting both of course.

Quote:Have you been watching this industry for the past 5 years?

Heck, just look at the Japanese charts for the last two weeks. The RE-release of Super Mario Brothers on the GBA was the top selling game both weeks.

I understand the digital click is a seperate signal, but that's irrelevent when you need to press all the way past the analog to get to it.

In the end, it's exactly the same as just assigning the maximum pressure of a normal trigger to be the target function. Yes, they can do that. One can easily design a small app that sets it so that if the mouse is moved above a certain speed, the buttons all turn pink and the arrow turns into a bunny that eats the buttons, doing so automatically without being tied to the mouse's speed any longer. It doesn't matter if it's a seperate function inside the controller. The program can do anything it wants with any input data. That analog stick can move Mario left until you press past the halfway mark, at which point it makes Mario jump directly up into the air. So yes, your Metroid Prime example COULD be done on a dreamcast controller. You could press all the way down to target, then release a little, then press all the way down again to switch targets. It would be an easy enough program to set up. In fact, the code would look pretty much the same only instead of using the digital click signal as the key, all instances of that would just be replaced with analog trigger pressed to maximum. It's just that easy! Call now!

But as I said, the tactile feedback is the main thing. It takes just a bit of extra force to do a digital click, and that prevents all sorts of accidentle mode switching that would happen with a normal analog trigger.

lazyfatbum Wrote:I was really impressed when MS showed off the 360 controller, I think it's completely original. Both Nintendo and MS controllers will now offer the ability to turn the system on or off remotely... hooray for laziness :D

Are you joking? The 360 controller looks like the sidewinder to me, and that's been around for a while. There are some new functions, but I wouldn't say it's original.

Quote:I've never heard of any developers complaining about the N64 controller. I can see some companies complaining towards its twlight when they went to port a 2-stick PS2 game and ran in to issues but it was the only analog controller on the market for almost a year. Saturn had one but it only worked on a few games. Developers were, at first anyway, extremely happy with Nintendo's design.

I never said when they complained, only that they did.

Quote:The GC controller, I remember reading some developers getting irked with the button layout. But the developers that were complaining were people like EA and LuxoFlux or whatever they're called. Not exactly the pinnacle of authority in matters of controller mechanics, these were companies that wanted to quickly and sloppily port their games with no thought past making it run on each console. They didn't want to actually apply any time (money) in to R&D.

Well you just reinforced my point that Nintendo isn't thinking of everyone else, or everyone else who matters. Third parties matter, which brings me to my next point...

Don't be so quick to write off 'EA and LuxoFlux or whatever', those are the third party developers that Nintendo is losing and no matter how you want to spin it that's bad news.

Quote:But it's a bitch to play a game (on any current gen console) where two sticks are used for movement AND face buttons are being used; In those cases, you have to give up an entire degree of movement, to hit another button... or hold it Luigi Style. :D Needless to say the N64 controller is still the best FPS (Turok style) controller on the market and the most like a mouse/keyboard setup but you still have to take your thumb off the camera buttons to open a door, change weapons, etc, it's just alot more fluid than current gen. This will all change with Revolution.

Halo is not a bitch to play, and it uses both analog sticks, the face buttons, and the shoulder buttons. It's probably one of the easiest games to pick up and get a hold of. FPS are a joy to play on the Xbox because of the controller.

Take a poll on some other web forum and I'll bet you that the majority would say they would never want to revert back to one analog stick. I wouldn't, and when I pick up games like Turok, Descent, Goldeneye, etc these days I have to retrain myself to play on the N64 controller...then I thank god someone came up with dual analog. Perhaps the Revolution controller will be better than the largely regarded current controller standard for console FPS (S-Controller), but on that same token it could very well be inferior when it comes to playing that type of game.

Quote:You're right, Super Smash Bros. Melee is a horrible game to control, as is Soul Calibur 3. The GC controller does not work at all with those games, despite the fact that the Game Cube version of SC3 sold more than any other version and that SSB:M has sold somewhere around 1 furkzillion copies. Okay enough sarcasm, traditional arena fighters NEED d-pad, that's a fact. The GC d-pad is tiny - I have little finger tips from playing piano but I have huge hands, so the GC d-pad is almost worthless to me.

I can imagine alot people feel that way. But I played SC3 with the control stick... and it worked great, better than the X-Box version with the full-sized d-pad imo. I was pulling off combos and moves with ease on the anal stick. I know ALOT of Dreamcasters who play SC with the stick (and can whoop my ass hard)

SSB:M is not a 3D fighter. It's one-of-a-kind, unlike most fighters released today.

I always use the d-pad on fighting games. I've never been very good at a joystick or analog stick when it comes to fighters.

I've played Soul Cally on both the Xbox (I own that version) and the GC (my friend owns that version). I prefer the Xbox version with an S-Controller, and my friend even admitted he thought the S-Controller felt better for Soul Cally but not due to the analog stick or d-pad, but the face buttons.

Quote:So I think what it all comes down to is that arena fighters need to phase out the d-pad and move in to anal sticks so we can stop putting d-pads on controllers, 80% of the games on the market dont use them. SSB:M is a joy to play, it's probably one of the most perfect games of it's type (you can argue it's the only game of its type) that showcases how awesome a stick can be as compared to D-Pads in a fighting/brawler. Using the GC controller playing SSB:M you FEEL like you're fighting - not inputting commands which is often the case with 'd-pad fighters'.

No, they shouldn't phase out the d-pad, imo. They allow for more commands and provide for more dynamic gameplay. Think Metroid Prime and switching your vision. I'm surprised more developers don't think how to use it.

Quote:However, the best is neither of those devices. The best is an arcade stick. :D

I don't agree, not that it or your point matters. We are talking about console gaming.

Quote:ABF was specifically making two valid points: 1.) the market is currently stagnant.

Not that the games are bad, not at all, i'm not saying we're all going to explode or how th seas will boil; Sony, MS and Nintendo are doing beautifully. But there's too much of the same thing (producers dont want to risk anything, its happening in film too). I played a demo of Hulk in blockbuster and rented Ultimate Spiderman, which is Spiderman 2... with the Hulk engine for Venom, I shit you not. In the PS2 section, the entire wall was nothing but FPS and GTA clones with the occasional third person shooter that's either espionage-based or fantasy based. The only original game I saw in the PS2 section was a sign that said "Coming soon, Colossus" which is being touted as "Sony's answer to Zelda: TP". heh... back in the day they would have called it a 'Zelda killer'. They called Brave Fencer Musashi a Zelda Killer. :D

I forgot, we don't know what we want. That's bullshit. I buy what I want, and I happen to think my gaming library for this gen is very diverse. I can go out and buy/rent racing, fps, puzzle, adventure, third-person, action, survival-horror, rpg...yeah, the market is really stagnant[rolleyes]. Maybe you're able to keep up with releases unlike me. I only just got around to Chronicles of Riddick and Prince of Persia Sands of Time this year, and there are at least a dozen other new games spanning three consoles that look interesting to me.

We are reaching the end of this current generation, it should be of no surprise to you to see alot of me-too games. Developers have been building their library assets over the last 4 years and are now going to ride them out while they start gearing up for next-gen.

What's wrong with developers capitalizing on the current trend of FPS and GTA-style games? They're hot right now as indicated by the millions of copies sold of Halo and GTA. Nintendo has no one to blame but themselves for ignoring the trend. I'm not suggesting that they drop what they're doing to adhere to trends, but it wouldn't hurt them to pay attention every now and then. Can you imagine how much fun a Nintendo made FPS would be that had the pick up and play ability of Halo? Would it hurt them to make one in between Mario Strikers and Mario DDR? Why haven't they?

Remember back to the 8-bit and 16-bit days when platformers were the shiznit? Everyone wanted to make the next Mario Bros. or Sonic; present day, gamers' attention has shifted to Halo and Grand Theft Auto. It's not the consumers' fault that Nintendo doesn't provide them with the games they(the masses) want.

Quote:2.) *oh boy I get to repeat myself again! bare with me!* ahem, the Revolution controller will be the first controller that will allow players to interact in 3-D. A 3-D controller, for 3-D games. EVEN IF the nunchuck two handed design doesn't fit well, the shell design is definitely going to take hold. How do I know this? I guess I cant put it in to words... oh wait, you did it for me.



The oldest most successful company who forged the industry out of ashes and consistantly generates industry standards with each generation? I think you hit it right on the head. :D Dont get me wrong; all one has to do is point to the Virtual Boy to show a total failure on Nintendo's part, or as you said the high royalty costs, choosing carts over CD's, etc. All mistakes definitely, but mistakes that Nintendo learned from.

We haven't answered yet whether or not the shell will come with the Revolution. If it's an accessory then it's my opinion that Nintendo could be at a disadvantage because we all know that accessories generally don't do well. Not to mention it limits the audience the developer is able to reach.

Nintendo learns from some of their mistakes. They're still losing third party support and console market share last I checked. They must be doing something wrong, no? I think it's that they ignore trends, but please tell me again that it's really the consumers fault. The consumers fault for not wanting Nintendo products. I do know what I want.

Quote:Does it really bother you, ABF, to think that Nintendo isn't perfect?

Would it bother you if we thought they are? Maybe perfect isn't the right word, let's replace "perfect" with "the best." There, that about sums it up. :D

If they were perfect, or the best, then they wouldn't be in the position of losing developers and market share. If they were perfect I would only own a Gamecube, GBA, and DS, but I had to buy a PS2 and Xbox to get the kinds of games that Nintendo just won't offer.

Quote:Are.... are you... joking? :D Have you been watching this industry for the past 5 years? :D Nintendo unveils a GBA SP that looks like an NES along with the 'Classic' Series. Full priced 20 year old games that many of which, for a month or two, were in the top ten sales in America, Europe and especially Japan.

It's like backwards compatability, not everyone cares for it. I buy new consoles to play new games, my NES->GC library isn't going to magically stop working the day I buy a Revolution. It's an appealing idea to have all my games in one place but if I'm not replaying my old games now I can't gather much reason to buy/download for free/whatever just because it's available on a new Nintendo console. Maybe that's just me.

Also, you're talking about bringing old games that you used to have to play at home that you can now play on the go...on a Nintendo portable/handheld. I like the idea of going through Final Fantasy III again while I ride the bus or have time to kill sitting in the hallway between classes even though I still have a perfectly working copy at home on my SNES. I don't care, however, to play through it again in the same manner I did some 10 years ago. If I did feel like playing them on my tv I'd simply get out my Nintendo system and go for it. Again, maybe that's just me.

Quote:NES game hunting in Animal Crossing causes such a mass panic that Nintendo is forced to release codes on their website to give people the NES games; in the words of many people who signed such petitions to have the codes released "I got Animal Crossing JUST FOR the NES games!"

Mass panic? How many copies did Animal Crossing sell again?

Quote:Go to *any* department store, look in the toy section, not the game's section; Retro gamingpalooza, Atari, Intellivision, Master System, Genesis, old arcade, shit I even saw Pong :D Spyhunter on PS2 and Xbox outsold the GC version simply because it had the unlockable of the original Spyhunter and "the GC disk didn't allow for us to put a 1 kb game on it because Sony and MS are fingering our male g-spot" (i'm paraphrasing)

Nintendo isn't just masturbating themselves by proclaiming "D/l our old shit!" They're doing it because consumers are begging for it. The other cool thing is, alot of players today sprouted up in either the PSX or PS2 days and never owned a N64. That's like 700 games that people never got to play. Same for SNES to a lesser extent towards it's twlight as people were drooling over the Ridge Racer and Tekken screenshots from Saturn and PSX. "The 800 dollar orgasm". :D

Retro is in, baby! Retrolution! *giant flying lava lamps and laser show, pet rocks invade Cuba - Bacon, Reagan, Palestine, terror on the airlines, marshall law the color wars, i cant take it anymore, we didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been turning*

Wait, do all these new Playstation gamers even care about Nintendo?

How many Playstation 2 players use the backwards compatability feature in the PS2? I've read it's a very small demographic, but I won't contend that it's an audience worth considering (why else would Sony and MS be bothering?).

These posts are getting too long, and you've not convinced me from my orginal position that Nintendo could lose more market share (what the thread was all about in the first place) with the Revolution. AND I WANT TO REMIND YOU FOR THE 4TH TIME THAT I DID NOT, DID NOT, DID NOT SAY THEY WILL LOSE MARKET SHARE AND CONTINUE IN A DOWNWARD SPIRAL, ONLY THAT IT'S A POSSIBILITY!!!!1!!

I've grown tired of speculating, and I haven't been able to see things from yours and ABF's point of view that everything is just gravy. Nothing is certain, and that's the only thing I'll stand by. When there is some more information such as if we have to buy old Nintendo games, the shell being included with the system, third party games and comments on the new hardware (more than we have now, show me something), some gameplay impressions with the new Mario or Metroid...in otherwords, something...then I'll come back to this thread or start a new one to further speculate. I look forward to the next debate we have.