Quote:These are called "adventure games", GR. And they're great.
You don't know who your fooling with! I've only been playing adventure games for *checks calender* the last 10 years! At least.
My stance is, and will continue to be, that random encounters are not a major annoyance and are rarely even a minor annoyance except in rare cases with I'm either in a hurry to get somewhere or the encounters happen too often [though this doesn't happen as much as it used to].
Quote:You don't know who your fooling with! I've only been playing adventure games for *checks calender* the last 10 years! At least.
Then you would agree that they are essentially RPGs without the random battles... or perhaps, that RPGs are a fusion of digital story and wargaming-inspired combat, while adventure games are straight digital stories?
Quote:My stance is, and will continue to be, that random encounters are not a major annoyance and are rarely even a minor annoyance except in rare cases with I'm either in a hurry to get somewhere or the encounters happen too often [though this doesn't happen as much as it used to].
The more I play them the higher my tolerance for the things gets, but that doesn't mean that I like the concept any better...
EM, I wasn't aware that this was getting old. Sorry about that.
Actually, I've found this to be a very interesting conversation. We've all aired our positions on this, or to put it more aptly, our personal opinions on random battles.
The only real debate is, even if you don't mind random battles at all, would you agree that it may be best if it was possible for them to make them not so random. Is there as positive aspect that warrents them remaining? I can think of one, developer time. Developers spend more and more time on games, and if the majority of players don't have a problem with random battles, and it saves a lot of time on level design, then they will keep it in. It's enough for them to warrent it remaining.
However, given infinite resources and time, would you prefer the game to have random battles, or fully designed encounter monsters cleverly placed walking about in certain paths on the field?
You know, FFX spoiled you. Looking for tonberry may have been tough, but check this out. Try looking for pink puffs in FFIV. At least there, there's an item that instantly nets you the rarest encounter in any field.
But really, the main thing that got me angry at random hunts for monsters was the Veldt in FFVI, and I love that game. I basically spent weeks on end just trying to find all of Gau's rages. Problem is, with so very many monsters, the odds were stacked against me to an all too high degree. I had a few on my list that would just never show up. Fortunatly, someone cracked the algorythm, showing the random encounters weren't so random, and using their algorythm I managed to easily net the last few rages in about an hour.
Had there been a complicated minigame on the veldt where I actually had to stalk the monsters and they all hung out in specific places (or could be lured out in a definite way), even if it STILL took weeks, it would be weeks of fun, not utter boredom.
FF6 is one of my favorite games, but I'm not blind to the idea of improvements. That would be an area that would improve the game. It's the only part of the game where I actually got mad at the random encounters system actually, but still, it's things like that, where you actually have a goal in mind in which success or failure is entirely out of your control (which makes for a fine book or movie, but not a good game), where I get annoyed. Random elements tend to annoy me when they deprive me of challenge rather than present it.
Your thoughts?
Quote:Then you would agree that they are essentially RPGs without the random battles... or perhaps, that RPGs are a fusion of digital story and wargaming-inspired combat, while adventure games are straight digital stories?
Adventure games aren't simply straight digital stories because of the problem-solving element that's not really present in RPGs.
Okay, I corrected my last post to say minor battles, not random battles.
Anywho, I don't usually get tired of random battles until later in the game when I'm all leveled up and I can beat all the random enemies easily and so it becomes a waste of time and MP, but it's usually around that time that I find an anti-random battle item. (Like the Moogle Charm that you equip to Mog in FF6.) At this point, though, the random battles are just a minor annoyance to me. A well-written storyline, a nicely developed cast of characters, some challenging and fun boss battles, and a good ending are more than enough to make up for any minor inconveniences such as random battles when I don't want them.
Quote:EM, I wasn't aware that this was getting old. Sorry about that.
It's not. :)
Quote:The only real debate is, even if you don't mind random battles at all, would you agree that it may be best if it was possible for them to make them not so random. Is there as positive aspect that warrents them remaining? I can think of one, developer time. Developers spend more and more time on games, and if the majority of players don't have a problem with random battles, and it saves a lot of time on level design, then they will keep it in. It's enough for them to warrent it remaining.
This is probably why random battles still exist. It's easier. But at least some developers realize that things should change...
Quote:However, given infinite resources and time, would you prefer the game to have random battles, or fully designed encounter monsters cleverly placed walking about in certain paths on the field?
It definitely would take more time to fit in a fully working puzzle instead of a random-chance encounter for some rare enemy or item or whatever... and not all developers want to do that. So some would just make a weak puzzle. So which is better, a challenging-but-really-annoying random-chance thing or a not-great puzzle... I'm not sure. Both would annoy me, I think. :) ... the answer of course is "make a good puzzle"... but even the good developers aren't perfect all the time. Even so, it's better to try.
Quote:Adventure games aren't simply straight digital stories because of the problem-solving element that's not really present in RPGs.
Uh... what RPGs do you play? The ones I play, for the most part, have puzzles in them as a major gameplay element... the main exception is MMORPGs, but those are almost a different genre.
Dark Jaguar Wrote:You know, FFX spoiled you. Looking for tonberry may have been tough, but check this out. Try looking for pink puffs in FFIV. At least there, there's an item that instantly nets you the rarest encounter in any field.
Y'know I've never <i>legally</i> found myself a Pink Puff. I once used a Game Genie back in the SNES days when I didn't care about "playing games straight" like I do now, and got myself a Pink Tail. The Adamant Armor it nets you is obscene. Yes, I'm well aware of the rarity of the Pink Puff :D
Well, if nobody else is calling it quits on this argument then neither shall I. I thought it was becoming tiring for everyone, but if we're all still enjoying it, then let's continue! I'll read through some of the later posts and reply later.
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/09/14/...lashtop_bg
Well, not too much, but it seems that they will be adding new areas and playable characters (or "PC"s as the kids call them these days) to the game. Sounds interesting. And, I always say this when it comes to remakes but, I really do hope they add in a "classic" mode when you start a new game so you can play it in it's unaltered original form.
Quote:or "PC"s as the kids call them these days
That's just D&D speak, DJ... :) (and since D&D created the fantasy rpg genre and inspired all rpgs, it's understandable that its terms would be used...)
I'm sure I said it before in the post, but for the record, I do prefer being able to see the enemies, like in SMRPG and CT, over random encounters like in the FF games and various other RPGs, but it doesn't really have that big an effect on the worth of the game. As for the puzzle factor, it works well in RPGs, but I find it more crucial in adventure games like Zelda. That's what I love about adventure games: plenty of room for story and top notch gameplay. The advantage of RPGs is that you have control over more characters. In the Zelda games, you just control Link. (Except at a few parts, like in Wind Waker, where you control Medli or Makar.) In Kingdom Hearts, you only control Sora while the CPU controls Donald, Goofy, and any other allies you may acquire along the way. Perhaps an adventure game where you switch scenarios and use a different character in each scenario would be ideal. I just like having different characters with different personalities and development, as well as different skills. Adds depth to both gameplay and storyline.
New characters...?
I dunno that I like the sound of that. It's like saying the Mona Lisa needs new colors. You just don't mess with perfection. New areas, items and stuff is all well and good, but when you dig so far into the core of the game as the playable characters and start tinkering around in there, the potential is there to make the game worse instead of better.
True, Majora's Mask did provide us with multiple characters. Even though those characters technically died and Link merely took on their forms, you're still pretty much continuing their lives and their stories. That was a pretty neat element on MM.
Man, MM was an awesome game, it just had one huge flaw, and because of that flaw, a lot of people look down on it as the worst game in the series.
And the thing is, I don't really consider the save system a flaw. You could save the game at ANY time, it's just that you should make sure you actually intend to PLAY the game before you turn it on. So long as you accomplish any task that nets you an item, and just about anything of merit in that game does, you can save and quit and when you come back you don't have to do it again. It's that simple. I really don't see what the problem is. Sure there are a few annoying things like getting out of town every time, but that's solved the second you get the song of wind.
I've found another way around that, in case you mess up and want to return to a previous save point: copy your saved game file onto the other file slot. Boom. Problem solved.
The "one huge flaw" I was referring to was actually the three-day time limit thing. Even with the backwards Song of Time, it just seems to pass too quickly, and it gets annoying having to do a lot of things all over again. Because of this, people say that MM is a disgrace to the series, but it's just one flaw. Just about everything else about the game rules. I mean c'mon, those masks were freakin' sweet!
I've only had a time issue on a few quests. The thing is, I KNOW better than to enter the dungeons in the game if I'm already on the 3rd day. Once I get that all important "song of dungeon summoning", I reset time and then go there. The dungeons were tough, and fun, but they weren't so hard that I had trouble beating them in time. I could at least always get as far as the important progress deciding hidden item, which basically let me skip by a lot of dungeon puzzles if I had to reset. I really don't see why the time limit was such a bad thing. The rush was fun.
And, what would copying my saved file do? There's nothing I ever do when I reset time that I actually want to undo, because resetting time DOES undo mistakes :D. Or are you talking about those owl statues for "memo saves"? I never used those...
Let's say you were in the middle of a side quest and you saved about halfway through. Then you continued it, and you messed up somewhere but didn't want to restart the whole thing. If you have the file copied to their other file slot, you can continue from your last save point halfway through the side quest. You may not run into this little problem, but if you do, there's your way around it.
Okay, yeah I can see how that might work. Ipretty much got that after thinking about the owl statues. I just never bothered even using the owl statues except once to test it out. I really think I would have preferred a 3rd save slot to them. As it is, I really couldn't do that trick anyway because there happens to be someone else using the only available save slot.
Yeah, that's the one problem: if someone else is using the other save slot, then you can't do the above trick without erasing their file, and I don't think they'd be very happy about that. ;)
I found the owl statues useful for a couple of reasons: 1) you could save your game without turning back time and starting everything all over again, in case you're in the middle of a quest or something, and 2) teleportation, need I say more?
Oh yes, I did use them for teleportation, constantly.
Excuses are just that, excuses. So "you just need to play until you get an item"... so? That doesn't change the fact that the fact that when you go back everything you did (with the exception of the contents of some of your inventory and, magically, the bank) is erased... I like it when when I do something that thing actually matters, but when I do it and then just afterwards all memory of it is erased as if I'd never done it, it just isn't the same... (this is a problem with normal MMORPGs too I'd say... all those quests that can't be truly completed, just stopped when you've gotten enough of object type X...) Of course, that's just one of the problems, but it's definitely a factor.
As for saving, I think everyone knows my opinion on that in MM. :)
Twilight Princess is probably going to blow both MM and WW out of the water though. (Ha ha, that's kind of a pun... it'll blow MM out of the water... that's like, WW is about the wind blowing you across the water, right? Yeah, that's like... that's like a pun! An unintentional pun. Funny how that works out.)
But anyway... MM and WW, while they were both fun, were nowhere near the greatness of OoT, but I have confidence in TP. It just might be the most worthy successor to OoT. We shall see come 2006.
Um, but you DO complete all those quests. Something actually does happen to the world and it changes. I can see how you may still be annoyed, but this is NOT like some MMORPG. You aren't just gathering X amount of item, you are going on a real and actually fun quest. So what if when you reset the effect is "undone". Everything you needed to get from it, you still have. You can go on as if it still is in place. I really don't get how you are viewing this.
And, for some reason I don't really get, by the end of the game, somehow everything you did manifests itself in that instance of the timeline and comes to pass.
Oh and, don't lie to yourself. The bank isn't keeping your cash, you are stealing it :D. That stamp of yours tells him exactly how much money you have in the bank. If you reset time, all the money you put in the bank is gone, but that stamp you took with you isn't. He never thought anyone would forge the thing :D, so he gives you all the money he thinks you have in the bank. Basically, you stole someone else's deposits.
Ahhhh, Termina, how primitive your economic system is. :D
Dark Jaguar Wrote:Oh and, don't lie to yourself. The bank isn't keeping your cash, you are stealing it :D. That stamp of yours tells him exactly how much money you have in the bank. If you reset time, all the money you put in the bank is gone, but that stamp you took with you isn't. He never thought anyone would forge the thing :D, so he gives you all the money he thinks you have in the bank. Basically, you stole someone else's deposits.
That doesn't make sense though, since you have to open the account the first time you meet the guy.
Nah, that stamp tells him all he needs to know. It's just that the guy doesn't trust his own memory when the stamp, the STAMP! The almighty authority of the stamp! And the first time you meet him your hand isn't stamped.
I bet he hasn't even invented a chain to keep his pen stuck to his desk so people don't try to steal it. His bank is way behind the times! Of course, he doesn't even have a pen... or a desk.
Well he could use the chain to hit people showing him stamps for money he doesn't remember taking from them.
Yeah, if it were a big chain. Or he could tie up crooks who try to rob them and then turn them into the police... er... knights... whoever enforces the law around Termina.
Those guys that look like soldiers from that Reign anime.
Never heard of it. Makes sense that an idea that I thought I came up with had already been used before. I'm surprised The Simpsons didn't do it. Or did they?
What idea? Anyway Reign was the homoerotic adventures of Alexander the Great, only anime style. Basically philosophy took physical form and broke the universe while Alexander was trying to rule it. Also, the guards wore short pants and had thick purple lips.
Quote:Um, but you DO complete all those quests. Something actually does happen to the world and it changes. I can see how you may still be annoyed, but this is NOT like some MMORPG. You aren't just gathering X amount of item, you are going on a real and actually fun quest. So what if when you reset the effect is "undone". Everything you needed to get from it, you still have. You can go on as if it still is in place. I really don't get how you are viewing this.
You complete them, but then you go back tomorrow and the stupid rock is still on the path to the farm, the aliens are back, the Goron area is still snowy, the Zora band's problems are back to square one, Ikana is haunted again, etc, etc, etc... it's annoying... both for a 'satisfaction at a sense that you are achieving things' sense and a 'going back to do other quests' sense... yes, having to beat the snow boss every time you want to do a quest in thawed Goronland really isn't nice at all...
Quote:And, for some reason I don't really get, by the end of the game, somehow everything you did manifests itself in that instance of the timeline and comes to pass.
Huh, odd... I'm sure I'll finish MM sometime (though not with all the masks). Haven't gotten around to it yet though...
Quote:Oh and, don't lie to yourself. The bank isn't keeping your cash, you are stealing it . That stamp of yours tells him exactly how much money you have in the bank. If you reset time, all the money you put in the bank is gone, but that stamp you took with you isn't. He never thought anyone would forge the thing , so he gives you all the money he thinks you have in the bank. Basically, you stole someone else's deposits.
I don't know, I don't think the stamp says your bank balance on it, right... no, it's just a magic bank. :)
Of course! That's the most plausible explanation!
But anyway, I can see the frustration there. They do provide certain things to help you if you forgot something in the area, but I think the best thing would be if the remains of the four bosses could instantly "purify" the region they belong to once you get them. "Could" as in you have to actually use the item to do it. I say that because there are a number of quests you can only engage in when the land is still corrupted. That's part of why I actually like the time travel thing. It makes it VERY easy to do any quest you want whenever you want, with no "point of no return" ever.
Dark Jaguar Wrote:What idea?
Nevermind, I misunderstood what you said. I just went back and reread it and I understand it now. Just disregard my last post.
I understand ABF's frustration though. The fact that everything you've done becomes undone when you turn back time can be quite irritating. It takes away the satisfaction of knowing that you made this particular reigion a better place and now it's all peaceful and prosperous, UH OH IT'S THE THIRD NIGHT BETTER TURN BACK TIME! And everything comes undone. Though this does have its advantages, as DJ pointed out, if you need to do a mission when the region is in ruin, you can go back and do it, as there's no "point of no return."
It's a tough problem though, because the time thing is so integral to the game... "how do you make it fun while retaining the uniqueness of the time system?" I'm not sure what the answer to that question would be... if the argument for resetting the world each time is realism, well, it's not realistic to be able to keep the things you DO keep when you reset time... and it's just so unsatisfying to do things and have them erased in an hour, or to have to repeatedly redo things just to get the world to the point where it was last time you played yesterday... the graphics are spectacular, and the artistic and graphical design is possibly the best on the N64 (Ikana is still very impressive...), but... why do I need to get arrows again?? Why can't I just run to the farm?? Why do I need to do ten steps, eight of which I've done before (and in some cases not just once) to get a better sword? I like the idea of timing puzzles, but why are some of them so hard and frusterating that if you want to do them you're virtually required to use an FAQ... These things do not make me want to finish the game... and if I ever do, I highly doubt that I'll be making much effort to get all those masks.