11th July 2005, 8:11 PM
11th July 2005, 8:24 PM
Quote:There are too many buttons and sticks on controllers
Revo controller:
11th July 2005, 8:35 PM
Hmm...
11th July 2005, 10:20 PM
Well considering what they did with the GBA and the GCN...
Their idea of promoting innovation was to FORCE game designers to make do with less buttons. Did it work? I'm afraid that I have to conclude that no, it didn't. Behold the GBA, home of SNES ports. Remember that they actually didn't include an X and Y button specifically because they wanted to prevent a situation where nothing but SNES ports were released. The idea was, even if they did port old games, they would need to really think about how to make it work, and in the mean time might really make some big innovations in it so it's not really a port at all.
Too bad Nintendo themselves provided the evidence that it didn't work...
They just kept porting old SNES games THEMSELVES. Most of them had next to nothing added to them. Some of them actually had enough button settings in the original that they had to work to change it. Hence, we get LTTP working pretty much flawlessly (though the sword being on the lefter button was a bit awkward to get used to), but they didn't actually change the controls in such a way as to make it better. They added stuff (oh did they add stuff, Four Swords for example), but it was controller agnostic.
In the end, reducing the controller doesn't promote superior controls. Making superior controls promotes that. Survival of the fittest and all that rot.
On to the Gamecube. So, they decided on the amazing unique face button setup. Didn't take too long to recognize it for what it is, a 6 button layout minus two buttons. It's only unique if you think in terms of 4 button layouts, which you shouldn't, because we've moved on.
Now sure, companies don't always use, or need to use, all those buttons. That doesn't mean they shouldn't BE there though. I can communicate in a game like Phantasy Star Online without using a keyboard fairly well, but in the end typing allows much more accurate communication even if it is slower in some ways, and that accuracy provides, in the long run, FASTER communication.
All taking away some controls does, in the end, is reduce the complexity of games. Now, simple games aren't worse than complex ones, but neither are they inherently better (different than the standard engineering principle, but true, complicated game mechanics can be fun too, BECAUSE of the complication, if you enjoy puzzlin' stuff). So, if Nintendo's main goal is making simpler games, that's fine. I'm sure I'll love them, and they may likely be some of the best games in the next gen. However, what they are doing is preventing other companies from making more complicated games that may actually need those extra controls due to a huge number of instantly needed functions, like in an FPS for example, where EVERY button is completely needed and can't be reduced to "hold this and press this at the same time" and expect to be simpler. So, they are reducing the possible 3rd party games, at LEAST, if they go this route.
What's the harm in adding extra buttons? If they really have an all important goal of reducing the controls to force creativeness, just put that in the mission goal! Say, right there from the start, "okay, you can only use these buttons and these sticks for controls". There shouldn't be an issue there. It's not like nonfunctional buttons somehow get in the WAY. Has an abundance of controller buttons ever actually got in the way when playing a game? Well, okay those terrible controllers that have buttons raised far too high come to mind, but aside from those...
Moving on, Kirby and the Canvas Curse only used the touch screen (and the start button to pause, since that's quicker than any touch button on screen could hope to be, and pausing needs to be quick), and it was GREAT! However, you will note that at no point were they hindered by EXTRA buttons on the DS. No, they reduced the button requirements without actually reducing the buttons on the system just fine. It's... it's not hard.
By the way, I couldn't read that article ABF...
You see, sometimes when you go to an article at IGN, you get this big ad and you have to click to skip it. Every now and then, you click on the skip and get to ANOTHER ad box you have to skip.
I got roughly 40, FORTY, of those things in a ROW. So, I said "screw it". They must have altered the probabilities or something. That's just unlikely... Though, the law of truly large numbers does allow for it... still....
Okay I finally got through (what is the deal with IGN these days?).
I saw the entire quote regarding simplification. From what I can see, they are doing it because people not into games, according to their insane hypothesis, aren't playing because too many buttons are too confusing.
Shades of Apple?
Seriously, that's the argument the Apple apologists use when people say "hey, that mouse doesn't have enough buttons to be useful, support for multibutton mice is nice, but, why don't they include one like that with the system?". They say, "well, two mouse buttons can be confusing to a computer novice". That... is stupid. There are things I have trouble explaining to people who don't know how to use a computer yet, but two buttons having two functions has NEVER been one of them. I've never had a person panic about multi button mice before. Heck, even if they use the mouse for a while before I explain anything, they get the hang of it and figure out pretty intuitively that if there are two buttons, they must do different things, and after using them, oh, yeah they do do different things.
That whole line is bull, and until they do the proper testing to shut me up and prove that hypo right, I'll stick by that.
Their idea of promoting innovation was to FORCE game designers to make do with less buttons. Did it work? I'm afraid that I have to conclude that no, it didn't. Behold the GBA, home of SNES ports. Remember that they actually didn't include an X and Y button specifically because they wanted to prevent a situation where nothing but SNES ports were released. The idea was, even if they did port old games, they would need to really think about how to make it work, and in the mean time might really make some big innovations in it so it's not really a port at all.
Too bad Nintendo themselves provided the evidence that it didn't work...
They just kept porting old SNES games THEMSELVES. Most of them had next to nothing added to them. Some of them actually had enough button settings in the original that they had to work to change it. Hence, we get LTTP working pretty much flawlessly (though the sword being on the lefter button was a bit awkward to get used to), but they didn't actually change the controls in such a way as to make it better. They added stuff (oh did they add stuff, Four Swords for example), but it was controller agnostic.
In the end, reducing the controller doesn't promote superior controls. Making superior controls promotes that. Survival of the fittest and all that rot.
On to the Gamecube. So, they decided on the amazing unique face button setup. Didn't take too long to recognize it for what it is, a 6 button layout minus two buttons. It's only unique if you think in terms of 4 button layouts, which you shouldn't, because we've moved on.
Now sure, companies don't always use, or need to use, all those buttons. That doesn't mean they shouldn't BE there though. I can communicate in a game like Phantasy Star Online without using a keyboard fairly well, but in the end typing allows much more accurate communication even if it is slower in some ways, and that accuracy provides, in the long run, FASTER communication.
All taking away some controls does, in the end, is reduce the complexity of games. Now, simple games aren't worse than complex ones, but neither are they inherently better (different than the standard engineering principle, but true, complicated game mechanics can be fun too, BECAUSE of the complication, if you enjoy puzzlin' stuff). So, if Nintendo's main goal is making simpler games, that's fine. I'm sure I'll love them, and they may likely be some of the best games in the next gen. However, what they are doing is preventing other companies from making more complicated games that may actually need those extra controls due to a huge number of instantly needed functions, like in an FPS for example, where EVERY button is completely needed and can't be reduced to "hold this and press this at the same time" and expect to be simpler. So, they are reducing the possible 3rd party games, at LEAST, if they go this route.
What's the harm in adding extra buttons? If they really have an all important goal of reducing the controls to force creativeness, just put that in the mission goal! Say, right there from the start, "okay, you can only use these buttons and these sticks for controls". There shouldn't be an issue there. It's not like nonfunctional buttons somehow get in the WAY. Has an abundance of controller buttons ever actually got in the way when playing a game? Well, okay those terrible controllers that have buttons raised far too high come to mind, but aside from those...
Moving on, Kirby and the Canvas Curse only used the touch screen (and the start button to pause, since that's quicker than any touch button on screen could hope to be, and pausing needs to be quick), and it was GREAT! However, you will note that at no point were they hindered by EXTRA buttons on the DS. No, they reduced the button requirements without actually reducing the buttons on the system just fine. It's... it's not hard.
By the way, I couldn't read that article ABF...
You see, sometimes when you go to an article at IGN, you get this big ad and you have to click to skip it. Every now and then, you click on the skip and get to ANOTHER ad box you have to skip.
I got roughly 40, FORTY, of those things in a ROW. So, I said "screw it". They must have altered the probabilities or something. That's just unlikely... Though, the law of truly large numbers does allow for it... still....
Okay I finally got through (what is the deal with IGN these days?).
I saw the entire quote regarding simplification. From what I can see, they are doing it because people not into games, according to their insane hypothesis, aren't playing because too many buttons are too confusing.
Shades of Apple?
Seriously, that's the argument the Apple apologists use when people say "hey, that mouse doesn't have enough buttons to be useful, support for multibutton mice is nice, but, why don't they include one like that with the system?". They say, "well, two mouse buttons can be confusing to a computer novice". That... is stupid. There are things I have trouble explaining to people who don't know how to use a computer yet, but two buttons having two functions has NEVER been one of them. I've never had a person panic about multi button mice before. Heck, even if they use the mouse for a while before I explain anything, they get the hang of it and figure out pretty intuitively that if there are two buttons, they must do different things, and after using them, oh, yeah they do do different things.
That whole line is bull, and until they do the proper testing to shut me up and prove that hypo right, I'll stick by that.
11th July 2005, 11:17 PM
Oh, I completely agree... I think this is ridiculous and does not work. People don't not get consoles because they're intimidated by 12-button, three-control-pad controllers. If anything that seems to have helped, if you go by how much the PSX and PS2 have expanded the videogaming market... so Nintendo is definitely in the wrong here (the Apple analogy is a good one, Apple continues to insist its stupid one-button mice are good, but does anyone actually believe them? Yeah, though so...). Let's hope that the result isn't quite as bad as this suggests... the Cube is already at the bare minimum of the requirements for buttons and analog sticks and stuff, and it'd be incredibly stupid to cut it back from there. And it won't help expand their market either, obviously. It'll just hurt.
Quote:Nintendo on Revolution Controller
Fewer buttons and analog sticks than the norm are a near certainty, according to new comments.
by Matt Casamassina
July 11, 2005 - Nintendo pulled back the curtain on the design of its next-generation console, codenamed Revolution, at the Electronics Entertainment Expo 2005 last May in Los Angeles. However, the publisher chose not to reveal the self-described revolutionary aspect of the new platform, which is its still top-secret controller. Nintendo executives at the event offered vague hints about the device, saying that it would need to be compatible with several generations of Nintendo systems, and then promised more details before the end of the year.
In a recent article published by London's The Guardian, Nintendo president Satoru Iwata offered further hints that Revolution's controller -- like the console itself -- may be simplified in order to appeal to consumers traditionally uninterested in complex, male-dominated videogames.
"There are too many buttons and sticks on controllers for novice players, which is likely to discourage them from ever playing games at all," Iwata told The Guardian. "We want the Revolution's controller to be relevant to everybody and we really want people to feel like they want to touch and play with it."
Although both Microsoft and Sony announced specs and games for their next-generation systems at E3 2005, Nintendo decided against doing the same. As a result, it is not yet known how powerful the Revolution is or how well it stacks up against its competitors. The Big N has indicated that it doesn't want to be lumped into the same category as the competition, preferring to explore "another planet" of videogame opportunities with its new console.
"Nintendo is very good at creating games that can appeal to the whole family," Iwata reiterated to the London paper. "There have been a lot of games created around excessive violence in the past few years and it seems to be escalating. From the business point of view, it doesn't make sense for us to follow suit. We cherish our hardcore gamers, but we always try to attract as many people as possible and expand the existing gaming population."
More as it develops.
12th July 2005, 3:34 AM
Obviously Nintendo doesn't like the Sony/Microsoft-created world of video games, and they want to do something else. I'm just not sure they know *what* that something else is.
12th July 2005, 9:03 AM
Indeed. Unique games are great, I love something original like Canvas Curse. It's just that, well, these things don't promote a unique experience.
Now then, maybe we've read this all wrong. Maybe the new controller really is a touch sensitive surface that's shaped like a controller, and that's how they will reduce buttons and sticks (though in such a case they should add a lot of bumps and grooves so you can still recognize where your fingers are by touch). However, you have to wonder...
If Nintendo's new innovation is just some reduced (though I'm sure... comfy) controller, I'll be upset... Designers may all end up saying "um, yeah, we're using the Gamecube controller, because it's actually SUPERIOR to this 3 button wonder...".
Now then, maybe we've read this all wrong. Maybe the new controller really is a touch sensitive surface that's shaped like a controller, and that's how they will reduce buttons and sticks (though in such a case they should add a lot of bumps and grooves so you can still recognize where your fingers are by touch). However, you have to wonder...
If Nintendo's new innovation is just some reduced (though I'm sure... comfy) controller, I'll be upset... Designers may all end up saying "um, yeah, we're using the Gamecube controller, because it's actually SUPERIOR to this 3 button wonder...".
12th July 2005, 2:18 PM
Quote:If Nintendo's new innovation is just some reduced (though I'm sure... comfy) controller, I'll be upset... Designers may all end up saying "um, yeah, we're using the Gamecube controller, because it's actually SUPERIOR to this 3 button wonder...".
If it's really that weird, that might happen for some games if it's allowed... it really depends on how 'out there' this design is and how serious they are about comments lke these (and how much they actually believe them like they seem to...)...
Quote:Now then, maybe we've read this all wrong. Maybe the new controller really is a touch sensitive surface that's shaped like a controller, and that's how they will reduce buttons and sticks (though in such a case they should add a lot of bumps and grooves so you can still recognize where your fingers are by touch). However, you have to wonder...
Let's hope it's something cool like that. :) But we just don't know, and comments like these do not exactly make me optimistic about what they'll come up with.
12th July 2005, 8:04 PM
Nah, even that was too many buttons.
Behold.
Behold.
12th July 2005, 8:22 PM
Haha I love it.
Personally I refuse to play any game that demands the use of more than one (1) joystick so I'm not particularly dismayed. I remember playing this FPS at my friend's place in which you moved with one joystick and aimed with the other. I think I went comatose for a day trying to understand the concept.
Personally I refuse to play any game that demands the use of more than one (1) joystick so I'm not particularly dismayed. I remember playing this FPS at my friend's place in which you moved with one joystick and aimed with the other. I think I went comatose for a day trying to understand the concept.
12th July 2005, 10:44 PM
I'm almost positive you are being ironic here :D.
You know what I love about that picture Weltall? They kept the Z button! :D
You know what I love about that picture Weltall? They kept the Z button! :D
12th July 2005, 11:21 PM
Quote:You know what I love about that picture Weltall? They kept the Z button!
Heh... so they did... L and R are gone, but there Z is... :)
13th July 2005, 8:12 AM
Actually, I believe that's just a mishappen lump of plastic that protrudes from the top of the controller and cuts your fingers whenever they happen to attempt to press it.
13th July 2005, 4:35 PM
From IGN:
Iwata explains 'new business model'
The future of Nintendo?
by Matt Casamassina
July 13, 2005 - Early today we received a press release from Nintendo that went out to all stock holders explaining a "new business model" for the company. Here's an excerpt of the release.
"Also I am much being lesbian without my mother. Iwata STRONG, Iwata FAST, too many types of pancakes (Nintendo) for Iwata to enjoy. Now one Monday morning I got up late and there were these monkies outside the gate the guard tried to stop them but he had no luck the monkies got free and they ran amok. I dunno what to say the monkies wont do. Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. (ed=I dunno what to say the monkies wont do.) Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. My office was run by the studio nurse I came down stairs and what could be worse? the monkies was doing a crazy dance they put buggies in my underpants. I Dunno what to say the monkies wont do (Matt interrupted, Dunno what to say the monkies wont do), Monkies dance and I dance too, Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. I ran outside to get a stick but I’m telling you friends those monkies was quick cuz when I returned, but to my disgrace, those monkies had the nurse in a mad embrace. I dunno what to say the monkies wont do for a nickel I’ll give you a clue (I didn't know your eyes were blue) I dunno what to say the monkies wont do."
"Shigeru Miyamoto-san envites you to his bikini... for many hours. Executive producer of pubic hair, that's good. Have you seen my bush? Call it El Presidente! Vomit, Prime Minister? Yes, (Xbox360 is for non-game players). I saw women naked once (no A and B button, no control stick). Reggie has clam face, I call him Clam Face. I hit him hard because of his clam face. (Gameboy Advance Micro)"
"...I went to me bath for a shower and shave the monkies gonna put me in to my grave the entire bathroom was laid to waste and they shaved my head with minty toothpaste. I dunno what to say the monkies wont do (Dunno what to say the monkies wont do) They is crazy-nutso I’m telling you. Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. Then by this time I was feeling dread, they was using a shoe brush to shine me head, I asked them to leave but they stayed around - they pulled the chain and WEE! I went down. I dunno what to say the monkies wont do. Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. Call my lawyer, I’m ready to sue. Dunno what to say the monkies wont do."
"Nintendogs has four testicle(s). Square will add more dogs connectivity CONFUSE. But it is market share.... Chrono Trigger."
"...nudity and camera, kids to adults. Mario will use black people, Wizard is about to die No-No Densu Yuji-Naki Grandmother Rape Sim at launch...."
"...When me patience ran out and I’m telling you sure; Tomorrow I show those monkies the door and if they dont leave I’m inviting you to my house for dumplings and monkey stew. I Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. Now I’m in the stew... oh poo. Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. Watch out for monkies I’m telling you! (dunno what to say the monkies wont do)"
Flowers Love other Flowers
I Want to be a New Flower
Angel Kiss… Flower Die
My Lunch is Gone
Where is my Flower?
Where is my Lunch?
The Angel Knows
~Iwata
Iwata explains 'new business model'
The future of Nintendo?
by Matt Casamassina
July 13, 2005 - Early today we received a press release from Nintendo that went out to all stock holders explaining a "new business model" for the company. Here's an excerpt of the release.
"Also I am much being lesbian without my mother. Iwata STRONG, Iwata FAST, too many types of pancakes (Nintendo) for Iwata to enjoy. Now one Monday morning I got up late and there were these monkies outside the gate the guard tried to stop them but he had no luck the monkies got free and they ran amok. I dunno what to say the monkies wont do. Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. (ed=I dunno what to say the monkies wont do.) Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. My office was run by the studio nurse I came down stairs and what could be worse? the monkies was doing a crazy dance they put buggies in my underpants. I Dunno what to say the monkies wont do (Matt interrupted, Dunno what to say the monkies wont do), Monkies dance and I dance too, Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. I ran outside to get a stick but I’m telling you friends those monkies was quick cuz when I returned, but to my disgrace, those monkies had the nurse in a mad embrace. I dunno what to say the monkies wont do for a nickel I’ll give you a clue (I didn't know your eyes were blue) I dunno what to say the monkies wont do."
"Shigeru Miyamoto-san envites you to his bikini... for many hours. Executive producer of pubic hair, that's good. Have you seen my bush? Call it El Presidente! Vomit, Prime Minister? Yes, (Xbox360 is for non-game players). I saw women naked once (no A and B button, no control stick). Reggie has clam face, I call him Clam Face. I hit him hard because of his clam face. (Gameboy Advance Micro)"
"...I went to me bath for a shower and shave the monkies gonna put me in to my grave the entire bathroom was laid to waste and they shaved my head with minty toothpaste. I dunno what to say the monkies wont do (Dunno what to say the monkies wont do) They is crazy-nutso I’m telling you. Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. Then by this time I was feeling dread, they was using a shoe brush to shine me head, I asked them to leave but they stayed around - they pulled the chain and WEE! I went down. I dunno what to say the monkies wont do. Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. Call my lawyer, I’m ready to sue. Dunno what to say the monkies wont do."
"Nintendogs has four testicle(s). Square will add more dogs connectivity CONFUSE. But it is market share.... Chrono Trigger."
"...nudity and camera, kids to adults. Mario will use black people, Wizard is about to die No-No Densu Yuji-Naki Grandmother Rape Sim at launch...."
"...When me patience ran out and I’m telling you sure; Tomorrow I show those monkies the door and if they dont leave I’m inviting you to my house for dumplings and monkey stew. I Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. Now I’m in the stew... oh poo. Dunno what to say the monkies wont do. Watch out for monkies I’m telling you! (dunno what to say the monkies wont do)"
Flowers Love other Flowers
I Want to be a New Flower
Angel Kiss… Flower Die
My Lunch is Gone
Where is my Flower?
Where is my Lunch?
The Angel Knows
~Iwata
13th July 2005, 5:06 PM
That was incredible!
Later I might have the mental capacity and stamina to make an addendum to that.
Later I might have the mental capacity and stamina to make an addendum to that.
13th July 2005, 5:16 PM
All the makings for the best console ever?
13th July 2005, 6:02 PM
Oh you know it!
14th July 2005, 2:13 PM
It seems to me like Nintendo is conceding defeat to Sony in a way. At this point to compete with Sony requires losing billions of dollars on hardware. MS are willing to do that, Nintendo aren't. So instead they're going to do their own thing and not try and compete when it comes to hardware specs. They're also not going to try and go after the traditional gamer who demands cutting edge hardware. They want to attract "non gamers" with simpler controls and nostalgia. If the Revolutions controller does have only one analog stick and fewer buttons does anyone think it will be getting ANY ports from other consoles? It'll have to survive on exclusive titles alone which means it'll probably have far, far fewer games than either Sony or MS. I'm starting to wish Nintendo had been bought out by one of the other hardware companies.
14th July 2005, 2:27 PM
Nintendo has always done their own thing though, even against the PSX.
14th July 2005, 3:44 PM
Here's my thing.
With some regularity, we'll get a press statement from one of the higher-ups within the Nintendo Corporate, giving us a jingoistic statement of lament on how great video games were when Nintendo ruled the world, how great life was when there were no FMVs or GTAs, how much more fun games were when controllers had fewer buttons than my car's keyless entry device, how people didn't want to think about complex stories, they just wanted some mindless fun.
It's like listening to a load of Luddite bullshit. Nintendo let the industry pass them by, and yet even now they stubbornly refuse to try and catch up. They are content with dropping a new Pokemon every six months, reminiscing about the good old days, and refusing to see the stupidity in thinking people would rather new peripherals instead of a first-class, top-grade machine.
With some regularity, we'll get a press statement from one of the higher-ups within the Nintendo Corporate, giving us a jingoistic statement of lament on how great video games were when Nintendo ruled the world, how great life was when there were no FMVs or GTAs, how much more fun games were when controllers had fewer buttons than my car's keyless entry device, how people didn't want to think about complex stories, they just wanted some mindless fun.
It's like listening to a load of Luddite bullshit. Nintendo let the industry pass them by, and yet even now they stubbornly refuse to try and catch up. They are content with dropping a new Pokemon every six months, reminiscing about the good old days, and refusing to see the stupidity in thinking people would rather new peripherals instead of a first-class, top-grade machine.
14th July 2005, 4:06 PM
I'll wait until I actually see the controller.
14th July 2005, 8:48 PM
I'll wait till I see it before I lose all hope but from what Iwata has said it doesn't sound too good.
14th July 2005, 9:21 PM
Quote:They're also not going to try and go after the traditional gamer who demands cutting edge hardware. They want to attract "non gamers" with simpler controls and nostalgia. bla bla bla etc
I don't buy that "traditional gamer" stuff. Nintendo's audience has never been the same as MS and Sony's target audience - "nü-gamers" who wear basketball jerseys, listen to Eminem and play Counterstrike. That's why no matter how odd Nintendo's decisions seem to be I tend to agree with them, because I just felt disconnected from video games when that generation of gamers took over. The bred-on-FFVII generation that always asks for dark/angsty contents and grandiosity and intensity (and let's put it simply, XTREMEness) in their games has always creeped me out and turned me off video games. That side of video games was apparent from the time Sega started up the Genesis and its "cool" attitude, but Nintendo had always managed to keep the upper hand thanks to 1) a headstart and 2) creativity - the same creativity they're championing right now. The only thing is that creativity's been sputtering out for the past couple of years, and there's cause to be apprehensive that they've totally ran out for Revo and that they're just becoming a Pokemon factory like Rtbang said.
On the other hand, call me a nostalgic but I've just been waiting for Nintendo to get even further away from the "nu-gamer" model, so that's why all these new ideas still give me an inkling of hope that they can come up with something good. I realize you can't just invent Donkey Kong and SMB 2 again, so that's why I'm not sure how far creativity will take them, but I'm glad they're giving it a shot.
Shit you know even this use of the word "gamer" makes me queasy. I'm not a "gamer", I just play video games sometimes. Like I also read books and watch TV sometimes, yet don't call myself a READER or TV WATCHER.
14th July 2005, 10:19 PM
i dunno. i don't think that nintendo has ever whole heartedly believed in this "do something different" attitude. i think that they're smart enough to realize that they can't get by without 3rd parties an are not willing to completely shun them. i also don't think that they completely ignore the public and it's wishes. and i thin kthat the new zelda is a testament to that. i don't think that the new controller will disallow for ports and such but will rather allow opportunities for innovation and simpler conrols.
i think that nintendo are idealists and don't particularly want to concede to the mainstream. but all the while they realize that they need to subscribe to mainstream ideals to exist. i don't think the revolution is going to be so radical that "traditional" games won't be able to be played on it. but i do think that it will have all the necessary equipment in place to allow for innovation in control and game design.
i am a FFVII generation gamer. i enjoy dark "angsty" games. but i also enjoy quirky games. and i prefer a game that makes me look at videogames differently than what the masses throw at me. examples of such games include FFVII (which was crazy different for its time but has since become the mainstream), beyond good and evil, Majoras Mask, and i think above all else DK jungle beat. which is easly one of the most fun games i've ever played.
i'm kind of drunk and as a result i'm rambling, but i think nintendo's on the right track with this whole "do something different" mentality. DK jungle beat is such an oddball game that is played in sucj a peculiar way but at the same time it's amazingly fun and really better than any game i've played by microsoft or sony this generation. and it's really a lot better than most games that have been released by nintendo this generation.
i don't even know what i'm talking about anymore. but DK jungle beat rocks.
i think that nintendo are idealists and don't particularly want to concede to the mainstream. but all the while they realize that they need to subscribe to mainstream ideals to exist. i don't think the revolution is going to be so radical that "traditional" games won't be able to be played on it. but i do think that it will have all the necessary equipment in place to allow for innovation in control and game design.
i am a FFVII generation gamer. i enjoy dark "angsty" games. but i also enjoy quirky games. and i prefer a game that makes me look at videogames differently than what the masses throw at me. examples of such games include FFVII (which was crazy different for its time but has since become the mainstream), beyond good and evil, Majoras Mask, and i think above all else DK jungle beat. which is easly one of the most fun games i've ever played.
i'm kind of drunk and as a result i'm rambling, but i think nintendo's on the right track with this whole "do something different" mentality. DK jungle beat is such an oddball game that is played in sucj a peculiar way but at the same time it's amazingly fun and really better than any game i've played by microsoft or sony this generation. and it's really a lot better than most games that have been released by nintendo this generation.
i don't even know what i'm talking about anymore. but DK jungle beat rocks.
14th July 2005, 11:15 PM
I like when Nintendo does something different with their games. It's refreshing. That doesn't worry me. But I am worried that they'll be too different with their hardware.
Iwata Wrote:"There are too many buttons and sticks on controllers for novice players, which is likely to discourage them from ever playing games at all,"Think about that. There are only two sticks on the GameCube controller. Unless he's bullshitting say goodbye to dual analog.
15th July 2005, 12:18 AM
Does he really want to do something like just give us a Dreamcast controller and call it innovative? Oh dear... Please let the innovation not be putting a screen in the controller... It's not that private info that other players on the same system can't access isn't a good thing, but it's not that innovative and that doesn't count as an amazing new addition!
15th July 2005, 1:05 AM
Quote:Think about that. There are only two sticks on the GameCube controller. Unless he's bullshitting say goodbye to dual analog.
Yeah, it's comments like that one that make me seriously doubt this... well, either seriously doubt how accurate it will ultimately be, or get pretty worried about what in the world Nintendo is doing...
15th July 2005, 5:23 AM
Knowing the disjointed (and only coherent in retrospect) comments that Nintendo has always made I came to the conclusion that he was talking about all controllers in general having buttons and sticks as a means to control the game.
I might be totally off but imagine the Revolution having two core game styles. On one side you have games that will use the GC controllers for its next gen, GC and download content, on the other you have 'Revolution' controllers that will be totally unlike anything else on the market and built specifically for Nintendo first and second party games.
This would tie in to several of Nintendo's comments from the past year. If this theory is true than Nintendo would have a huge upper hand. Unfortunately, it will take a while before third parties would even attempt to create software that is 'Revolution only' and take advantage of the special controller and/or system but third parties could port a game over to Rev and use the GC controller (or just as Sony and MS did, release an updated GC controller for it's next gen. Maybe that's what the 'Wavebird 2' is).
Nintendo would never do something as to close out third parties or make it difficult for them to develop software for their system. Unless it's involuntary like the CD switch over from carts but that certainly didn't stop third parties from creating content for the N64. So i think it's a pretty far-off chance that Nintendo is solely talking about dual analog sticks or reverting back to one, this is more of a 'salesman' comment to get your interest in the Revolution.
And rynbgas you're totally wrong that Nintendo let the industry pass them by. I know what you see at Walmart but these are, with few exceptions, people from the south and heartlands. In other words a mass of semi-retarded mouth breathers who have more off-spring than teeth. In Orlando the GC is in as high demand as the PS2 or XBox.
Nintendo created the game industry for the young and the young at heart and then Sony (and time) made it mainstream. Nintendo has consistently released AAA games over it's major 7+ consoles and handhelds and has tailored itself to a niche audience - the people who want to buy a game they can play for the next ten years or more and rent everything else. Nintendo remains the only company that has a following for an actual purpose; Not for it's ability to make you cool or to be accepted by peers but a following in the millions who know what a Nintendo game is and is there on the release date cash in hand.
Nintendo didn't let the industry pass it buy, it quietly stayed its course while other companies tried to reinvent it in to another Nike except where Nike tells you that your social status is dictated by what's on your feet, Sony (and now MS) want you to believe that it's what's under your TV (or in your pocket) that establishes your status. watch the 15 year olds wake up in cold sweats because they dont have a Razor phone, a PSP or an IPod which are all on the same level of importance as having street cred with your homies so you got J and be pimpin your hos as a playa.
Sony and MS live and cater to a Bizarro universe where people still buy games based on their cover art alone or what type of weapon the main character is holding. I know a lot of people who own just a PS2 and they have around 15 games, usually no more than that. With people who own just an XBox, an even smaller library for them. Then you have people who own GC (and usually with it an assortment of other systems); People who really care about how they play, with stacks upon stacks of games - all of them highly rated and considered 'must-haves'.
I've realized that Nintendo's comments about 'smaller' games or 'Non-games' are directly talking about GBA and DS because, well, those are the games we've been buying for our handhelds since Gameboy was released so it makes sense. But these comments about Revolution have been so... out-there and weird… and unfortunately it's only going to make sense once we finally see the thing in action.
All Nintendo is doing right now is occasionally dropping a comment and watching us buzz around and discuss its purpose. It's a hype generator and no matter how brilliant Sony's campaigns have been no one, and I mean no one company on this earth have ever been able to achieve the level of hype that Nintendo can and we're watching that in progress right now.
I might be totally off but imagine the Revolution having two core game styles. On one side you have games that will use the GC controllers for its next gen, GC and download content, on the other you have 'Revolution' controllers that will be totally unlike anything else on the market and built specifically for Nintendo first and second party games.
This would tie in to several of Nintendo's comments from the past year. If this theory is true than Nintendo would have a huge upper hand. Unfortunately, it will take a while before third parties would even attempt to create software that is 'Revolution only' and take advantage of the special controller and/or system but third parties could port a game over to Rev and use the GC controller (or just as Sony and MS did, release an updated GC controller for it's next gen. Maybe that's what the 'Wavebird 2' is).
Nintendo would never do something as to close out third parties or make it difficult for them to develop software for their system. Unless it's involuntary like the CD switch over from carts but that certainly didn't stop third parties from creating content for the N64. So i think it's a pretty far-off chance that Nintendo is solely talking about dual analog sticks or reverting back to one, this is more of a 'salesman' comment to get your interest in the Revolution.
And rynbgas you're totally wrong that Nintendo let the industry pass them by. I know what you see at Walmart but these are, with few exceptions, people from the south and heartlands. In other words a mass of semi-retarded mouth breathers who have more off-spring than teeth. In Orlando the GC is in as high demand as the PS2 or XBox.
Nintendo created the game industry for the young and the young at heart and then Sony (and time) made it mainstream. Nintendo has consistently released AAA games over it's major 7+ consoles and handhelds and has tailored itself to a niche audience - the people who want to buy a game they can play for the next ten years or more and rent everything else. Nintendo remains the only company that has a following for an actual purpose; Not for it's ability to make you cool or to be accepted by peers but a following in the millions who know what a Nintendo game is and is there on the release date cash in hand.
Nintendo didn't let the industry pass it buy, it quietly stayed its course while other companies tried to reinvent it in to another Nike except where Nike tells you that your social status is dictated by what's on your feet, Sony (and now MS) want you to believe that it's what's under your TV (or in your pocket) that establishes your status. watch the 15 year olds wake up in cold sweats because they dont have a Razor phone, a PSP or an IPod which are all on the same level of importance as having street cred with your homies so you got J and be pimpin your hos as a playa.
Sony and MS live and cater to a Bizarro universe where people still buy games based on their cover art alone or what type of weapon the main character is holding. I know a lot of people who own just a PS2 and they have around 15 games, usually no more than that. With people who own just an XBox, an even smaller library for them. Then you have people who own GC (and usually with it an assortment of other systems); People who really care about how they play, with stacks upon stacks of games - all of them highly rated and considered 'must-haves'.
I've realized that Nintendo's comments about 'smaller' games or 'Non-games' are directly talking about GBA and DS because, well, those are the games we've been buying for our handhelds since Gameboy was released so it makes sense. But these comments about Revolution have been so... out-there and weird… and unfortunately it's only going to make sense once we finally see the thing in action.
All Nintendo is doing right now is occasionally dropping a comment and watching us buzz around and discuss its purpose. It's a hype generator and no matter how brilliant Sony's campaigns have been no one, and I mean no one company on this earth have ever been able to achieve the level of hype that Nintendo can and we're watching that in progress right now.
15th July 2005, 9:16 AM
If the Revolution is the console equivalent of the DS, I'll be more than satisfied to spend my hard earned money on it.
15th July 2005, 5:41 PM
I'm interested to see what Nintendo actually does. I'm hoping it'll be good and they can replicate something on the success level of the DS, except on home consoles, but ... with all of the comments we've gotten from them, I'm just not optimistic about that happening... but we really can't say much until we know what it is. We know so little about the real details of Revolution that I'm not even sure if we can really speculate about it...
15th July 2005, 6:45 PM
That's about the most accurate thing anyone's said so far on this.
In the end, all we can say is Nintendo promises something amazing but doubt is warrented.
In the end, all we can say is Nintendo promises something amazing but doubt is warrented.
17th July 2005, 6:39 AM
I just thought of something. There's one way Nintendo could drop one of the analog sticks. That's if the second analog stick is replaced by a gyro function.
17th July 2005, 7:41 AM
I think it's a pretty fair bet that the Rev controller will use the tilt mechanisms seen in some GB games and PC controllers.
17th July 2005, 12:14 PM
If done right it would work well for controlling the camera in a Mario game or FPS.
17th July 2005, 3:56 PM
You know, the gyro concept was a neat thing to think about, but what you are suggesting really does have some major potential and you see further than I did just imagining the gyro idea on it's own. It's not without flaws worth discussing, as will follow, but I think they can be overcome by those with insight greater than my own.
Truly, a gyro sensor that senses movement in all 3 dimensions would be superior to the analog stick; though in order to get two individual sets of input one would indeed still need the stick, or else create a setup as such that one holds two seperate one handed controller PARTS which work together for input. As such, I would submit that such an arrangment of an analog stick on the left in the traditional setup combined with a gyro sensor in place of the right would allow for better control. Indeed, it would allow for better control in other ways than just an additional axis.
What I mean is that instead of one pressing the right stick at all times, that thumb would now not be so hindered and would be at a great liberty to indulge itself in pressing any face button it so pleases while the wrists busy themselves with the task at hand of tilting the gyro about.
Now as to the problems that I see as upcoming regarding such as suggestion, I believe range of motion and stress are the two chief concerns. Indeed, I see the two coinciding. I would state it's one problem but the English language prevents me to identify it as such.
Permit me in this example. Say the player in this case was playing such a game in that they had to strafe about from side to side repeatedly. Say that it was important in this case that the player know exactly at what degree the sensor is tilted so as to get the proper response in the game. What method would be employed to allow the player to know this? I would submit perhaps that a short rumble (the rumble being something pretty much overlooked and underused for anything else in gaming today) would suffice. Indeed, in this way the player might be allerted when they reached the maximum range in any direction. There are problems with this as well I believe, though at present I am not of a mind to go into them. Further though, there is the issue of a situation wherein the player wishes to cross a very narrow path. In such a situation the player would want to know for certain if they were only pushing along one axis or if they were pushing along another. I think perhaps a very small "dead zone" should be employed in all the dimensions so as to allow slight shifts in other dimensions when a player really only means to shift in one.
To elaborate on the second part of the problem, it all comes down to wrist strain. Namely, normally when one plays a game they can hold their wrists in whatever manner pleases them at the time. In a gyro game, they are now forced to, perhaps, hold their hands in what might be an uncomfortable position for many seconds at a time. This could put undo stress on the hands. I am however imagining a scenario in which the range of motion is physically rather great, much like a steering wheel. However, should the physical range of motion be as such that only a very slight motion is needed to get to the furthest range of a dimension, this is solved. Another matter, that of how small a movement the wrist is capable of, immediatly comes to attention, but I think one such as that is easier to handle.
At any rate I must say this is a very impressive idea you have come up with. I can only hope those at Nintendo are in fact talking about this when it comes to a control innovation.
Truly, a gyro sensor that senses movement in all 3 dimensions would be superior to the analog stick; though in order to get two individual sets of input one would indeed still need the stick, or else create a setup as such that one holds two seperate one handed controller PARTS which work together for input. As such, I would submit that such an arrangment of an analog stick on the left in the traditional setup combined with a gyro sensor in place of the right would allow for better control. Indeed, it would allow for better control in other ways than just an additional axis.
What I mean is that instead of one pressing the right stick at all times, that thumb would now not be so hindered and would be at a great liberty to indulge itself in pressing any face button it so pleases while the wrists busy themselves with the task at hand of tilting the gyro about.
Now as to the problems that I see as upcoming regarding such as suggestion, I believe range of motion and stress are the two chief concerns. Indeed, I see the two coinciding. I would state it's one problem but the English language prevents me to identify it as such.
Permit me in this example. Say the player in this case was playing such a game in that they had to strafe about from side to side repeatedly. Say that it was important in this case that the player know exactly at what degree the sensor is tilted so as to get the proper response in the game. What method would be employed to allow the player to know this? I would submit perhaps that a short rumble (the rumble being something pretty much overlooked and underused for anything else in gaming today) would suffice. Indeed, in this way the player might be allerted when they reached the maximum range in any direction. There are problems with this as well I believe, though at present I am not of a mind to go into them. Further though, there is the issue of a situation wherein the player wishes to cross a very narrow path. In such a situation the player would want to know for certain if they were only pushing along one axis or if they were pushing along another. I think perhaps a very small "dead zone" should be employed in all the dimensions so as to allow slight shifts in other dimensions when a player really only means to shift in one.
To elaborate on the second part of the problem, it all comes down to wrist strain. Namely, normally when one plays a game they can hold their wrists in whatever manner pleases them at the time. In a gyro game, they are now forced to, perhaps, hold their hands in what might be an uncomfortable position for many seconds at a time. This could put undo stress on the hands. I am however imagining a scenario in which the range of motion is physically rather great, much like a steering wheel. However, should the physical range of motion be as such that only a very slight motion is needed to get to the furthest range of a dimension, this is solved. Another matter, that of how small a movement the wrist is capable of, immediatly comes to attention, but I think one such as that is easier to handle.
At any rate I must say this is a very impressive idea you have come up with. I can only hope those at Nintendo are in fact talking about this when it comes to a control innovation.
7th August 2005, 9:36 AM
Those are good ideas DJ and i'll add that what or how it's done will be produced in such a way that it's still affordable and in the 25-35 range when purchasing new controllers. The one thing I know is that it will be vastly different.
But the reason i'm bringing this thread back up is because we've reached the yellow alert stage. Companies are dropping screen grabs and trailers for 360 and PS3 launch games and we're slowly approaching 360's launch date... which I have a feeling is going to be attacked by a slew of images and videos from Nintendo.
At this stage in the game, we can expect the bomb to be dropped anytime between now to the 360 launch.
Nintendo needs to start the concrete hype machine and to do that they have to show pictures and videos and if any company that is making any piece of software or hardware for the Revolution shows their hand than Nintendo will show theirs and whoosh, the biological internally manufactured waste biproduct will collide with the oscillating air directional rotational device.
But the reason i'm bringing this thread back up is because we've reached the yellow alert stage. Companies are dropping screen grabs and trailers for 360 and PS3 launch games and we're slowly approaching 360's launch date... which I have a feeling is going to be attacked by a slew of images and videos from Nintendo.
At this stage in the game, we can expect the bomb to be dropped anytime between now to the 360 launch.
Nintendo needs to start the concrete hype machine and to do that they have to show pictures and videos and if any company that is making any piece of software or hardware for the Revolution shows their hand than Nintendo will show theirs and whoosh, the biological internally manufactured waste biproduct will collide with the oscillating air directional rotational device.
7th August 2005, 11:34 AM
Quote:which I have a feeling is going to be attacked by a slew of images and videos from Nintendo.
Which I wonder about... I wonder if instead we're going to be treated to another helping of "we don't want to show much because in this new un-named medieval-style action game, the main character will use two swords!!!!!!!!!!!, and we don't want the competition to steal such an innovative new gameplay concept that no one has ever even formed a basic concept of until we came along. Like the Water pack in SMS. I mean, it's a rocket pack that uses water instead of rocket fuel. It was so completely innovative, so brash and outside-the-box that I built a shrine to my genius and children pay homage to me by rubbing their shaven genitalia on this icon."
9th August 2005, 11:57 AM
I would definitely like to think that the Revolution's secret is a good one and Mario Sunshine's "secret" was just a sad mistake... (acting like it was special, I mean)... :) Because Nintendo can do it, and should be able to do it, so why not assume that they're going to make a interesting and unique console (even if if it really is unique it will have to get past the Gimmick Test... I mean, connectivity was slightly unique. This does not mean that it passed the Gimmick Test. :))...
9th August 2005, 1:54 PM
Let's just not forget that the physics engine in SMS and the idea of using a water cannon to fly, hover, 'clean' etc was never done before. That does deserve credit.
But I have a feeling that SMS was the Wind Waker of Marios. As in, the larger scale game is still in production and was pushed to Revolution while SMS was formed quickly out of the WW engine (which was in production for some time shortly after OoT along with the story and art for tTP).
The way Nintendo, more so than other companies engineers their games is that they make different variations of the same game. A different style and flavor and then decide on which version to release. Miyamoto has been quoted as saying that at any given time there are over 10 versions of a Mario game floating around the offices. I think SMS was one of the stronger versions but not "the sequel to Mario 64" has been in development since Mario 64 was released.
I think Nintendo saw that with the GC they weren't going to reclaim any lost ground with third parties and popularity and while strong first party titles will bring up sales it wont push a console in to say, Playstation levels.
So I think Nintendo decided early on to leave the larger guns for the next platform which we can already see is going to do it's best to gain popularity but how it handles third parties remains to be seen. In fact, the only third party I know for certain on the Revolution as of right now is Square who was quoted as saying that a FF:CC game is scheduled for it and the Metroid 3 info from Retro. Other than that, everything's in the air.
One of two things will happen, Nintendo will announce a shit ton of third parties signed on or Nintendo will fall flat with third parties again and focus on first and second which I doubt will happen as that business model has been proven to be effective but not beneficial to the company (still struggling with #2 in the industry with consoles).
But I have a feeling that SMS was the Wind Waker of Marios. As in, the larger scale game is still in production and was pushed to Revolution while SMS was formed quickly out of the WW engine (which was in production for some time shortly after OoT along with the story and art for tTP).
The way Nintendo, more so than other companies engineers their games is that they make different variations of the same game. A different style and flavor and then decide on which version to release. Miyamoto has been quoted as saying that at any given time there are over 10 versions of a Mario game floating around the offices. I think SMS was one of the stronger versions but not "the sequel to Mario 64" has been in development since Mario 64 was released.
I think Nintendo saw that with the GC they weren't going to reclaim any lost ground with third parties and popularity and while strong first party titles will bring up sales it wont push a console in to say, Playstation levels.
So I think Nintendo decided early on to leave the larger guns for the next platform which we can already see is going to do it's best to gain popularity but how it handles third parties remains to be seen. In fact, the only third party I know for certain on the Revolution as of right now is Square who was quoted as saying that a FF:CC game is scheduled for it and the Metroid 3 info from Retro. Other than that, everything's in the air.
One of two things will happen, Nintendo will announce a shit ton of third parties signed on or Nintendo will fall flat with third parties again and focus on first and second which I doubt will happen as that business model has been proven to be effective but not beneficial to the company (still struggling with #2 in the industry with consoles).
9th August 2005, 4:18 PM
That's all good points, but I have to say that even if using a water cannon to hover or boost really high into the air or run around the water is, in the artistic sense, original, in the gameplay sense it's nothing new. The fact that it was water really didn't add anything to it. Boosting into the air has been done, so has turboing around and hovering for small amounts of time at the height of a jump. The only really unique gameplay thing was the actual squirting of the water to wash things. That really wasn't the most fun thing in the world though. It had it's moments though, and it was original, so it was something at least...
9th August 2005, 5:46 PM
That's true but what really tied it together was the physics engine. I've never seen a gaming engine so perfectly adapted to it's physics.
9th August 2005, 6:05 PM
It would seem you know more about this than I do. So, what exactly do you know as regards to this? I will extract all data I do not possess! I am a mind leech!
9th August 2005, 7:43 PM
Yunno how when you play most platformers (or any game really) how the character moves in the environment can be vastly different from game to game? It's how a character or object feels to have weight and mass and even the surfaces of the level will interact with your character.
In SMS, in the programing, Mario always knew and understood where he is and how should act and react depending on
What he's standing on
The angle of the object he is standing on
What direction he's facing
Now introduce a Jump:
The angle of the jump, how long you pressed the button, the surface you were standing on and what direction you were facing when you performed the jump were all taken in to consideration at the moment you pressed the button. You'll jump higher on a stone floor than you will on wet grass, etc.
Now add a movement. Ever tried a backwards long jump in Mario 64? The game didn't care what direction you were facing it only cared about what direction you were pressing, so if you executed a long jump and then held back on the stick Mario would long jump backwards at the same speed and height he would if moving forward, but the distance would get cut short until you could move the camera in front of Mario.
Then it would make sense to the physics engine that Mario is moving forward so you would achieve full momentum. Pulling back on the control stick the game think's you're trying to aim a jump by over compensating before landing so it hinders your movement range.
Now in SMS perform a simple jump and then move in any direction. You dont have to wait for momentum, it imeadiately catches up to you and the character moves as you would want it to,
Now try running in a circle, if you did this Mario 64 he does just that, runs in a circle. Do it in SMS and you can actually see his body shift as weight is displaced. The animation isn't moving his body, it's the physics engine that says there's X mass under Y weight under Z stress (in movement) and Mario starts to lean in to his turns. Notice the different in the control? It becomes faster to turn because his weight and center of gravity is now towards his head and not his middle. Jump and let go of the control stick, and you cancel the weight displacement but you still have all the momentum. So when you jump you will move at the same speed in the direction your were last in before the jump happened.
Try falling in Mario 64. He never speeds up. In SMS the speed of which you fall is doubled every 3 seconds unless you perform another action (a 'recovery move') or butt-stomping which causes you to descend at a constant rate.
If you jump at full sprint and hit a fall after performing a jump Mario will grab the wall and begin to slide. The slide is a canceling move that destroys any momentum you recieved while running but it's possible to run at full sprint and jump kick the wall and retain all momentum while in the air, land, and continue your full sprint without having to recover any momentum. The inverse of that applies to, if you fall from a high place and land on a slope you can continue the rate of speed you gained while falling (which is based on mass and weight) so that you're running faster than what the game normally allows
Now apply these physics to every ground, wall, prop, enemy etc. that Mario can interact with and the world you traverse in SMS becomes an awesome experience. Couple that with the water cannon that has similar effects but work on completely fabricated truths. In a standing position activate the hover nozzle, you'll slowly ascend (the pressure of the water strinking the surface beneath you could in theory, given enough psi from the cannon, lift you off the ground, but now move towards a bottomless pit and you retain the same amount of lift which would mean the water cannon is propelling water at a rate that is greater than Mario's mass and weight times gravity but that makes sense because if it didn't do that you would fail in your hover everytime you got too far from the ground. There are occasions where Mario could be falling down at an extreme rate where the water cannon can no longer hold up the pressure of Mario's descent, when this happens you slow your fall but eventualy hit the ground and sustain the same amount of damage you would have recieved had you not slowed down. The game says you failed to recover in your fall so plop you get hurt. But if you do recover to a dead zone where you no longer have movement in mass then it cancels your previous fall and starts recording your current position as the new height.
In Mario 64 you could fall from any height and but stomp before hitting the ground and the game will record the height of your butt stomp as the height from which you fell.
I mean Mario 64 had a cheating way of pulling it off but SMS is using the 'real' computing power to pull it off in-game. It's really amazing and there's no game out there that gives you that kind of expression of physics.
In SMS, in the programing, Mario always knew and understood where he is and how should act and react depending on
What he's standing on
The angle of the object he is standing on
What direction he's facing
Now introduce a Jump:
The angle of the jump, how long you pressed the button, the surface you were standing on and what direction you were facing when you performed the jump were all taken in to consideration at the moment you pressed the button. You'll jump higher on a stone floor than you will on wet grass, etc.
Now add a movement. Ever tried a backwards long jump in Mario 64? The game didn't care what direction you were facing it only cared about what direction you were pressing, so if you executed a long jump and then held back on the stick Mario would long jump backwards at the same speed and height he would if moving forward, but the distance would get cut short until you could move the camera in front of Mario.
Then it would make sense to the physics engine that Mario is moving forward so you would achieve full momentum. Pulling back on the control stick the game think's you're trying to aim a jump by over compensating before landing so it hinders your movement range.
Now in SMS perform a simple jump and then move in any direction. You dont have to wait for momentum, it imeadiately catches up to you and the character moves as you would want it to,
Now try running in a circle, if you did this Mario 64 he does just that, runs in a circle. Do it in SMS and you can actually see his body shift as weight is displaced. The animation isn't moving his body, it's the physics engine that says there's X mass under Y weight under Z stress (in movement) and Mario starts to lean in to his turns. Notice the different in the control? It becomes faster to turn because his weight and center of gravity is now towards his head and not his middle. Jump and let go of the control stick, and you cancel the weight displacement but you still have all the momentum. So when you jump you will move at the same speed in the direction your were last in before the jump happened.
Try falling in Mario 64. He never speeds up. In SMS the speed of which you fall is doubled every 3 seconds unless you perform another action (a 'recovery move') or butt-stomping which causes you to descend at a constant rate.
If you jump at full sprint and hit a fall after performing a jump Mario will grab the wall and begin to slide. The slide is a canceling move that destroys any momentum you recieved while running but it's possible to run at full sprint and jump kick the wall and retain all momentum while in the air, land, and continue your full sprint without having to recover any momentum. The inverse of that applies to, if you fall from a high place and land on a slope you can continue the rate of speed you gained while falling (which is based on mass and weight) so that you're running faster than what the game normally allows
Now apply these physics to every ground, wall, prop, enemy etc. that Mario can interact with and the world you traverse in SMS becomes an awesome experience. Couple that with the water cannon that has similar effects but work on completely fabricated truths. In a standing position activate the hover nozzle, you'll slowly ascend (the pressure of the water strinking the surface beneath you could in theory, given enough psi from the cannon, lift you off the ground, but now move towards a bottomless pit and you retain the same amount of lift which would mean the water cannon is propelling water at a rate that is greater than Mario's mass and weight times gravity but that makes sense because if it didn't do that you would fail in your hover everytime you got too far from the ground. There are occasions where Mario could be falling down at an extreme rate where the water cannon can no longer hold up the pressure of Mario's descent, when this happens you slow your fall but eventualy hit the ground and sustain the same amount of damage you would have recieved had you not slowed down. The game says you failed to recover in your fall so plop you get hurt. But if you do recover to a dead zone where you no longer have movement in mass then it cancels your previous fall and starts recording your current position as the new height.
In Mario 64 you could fall from any height and but stomp before hitting the ground and the game will record the height of your butt stomp as the height from which you fell.
I mean Mario 64 had a cheating way of pulling it off but SMS is using the 'real' computing power to pull it off in-game. It's really amazing and there's no game out there that gives you that kind of expression of physics.
9th August 2005, 9:48 PM
While I did know about the physics system for Mario 64, I never actually payed enough attention to Mario Sunshine to notice all that. However, looking at it now, you are totally right. They really did go into a lot of detail in the physics, and he does react differently in ALL ways depending on surface and not just reduced running speed. I think I have grown too complacent in trying to figure out the physics of games to get an idea of how the programmers went about making the game.
Thanks for pointing all that out to me!
Thanks for pointing all that out to me!