Tendo City

Yeah, it's a few years old now but it's an awesome game, a fact which it took till the end for me to fully realize. So, has anyone else here beat it?

Sorry, haven't played it yet. What sort of game is it anyway?

It plays a lot like Zelda, but with automatic targetting...and hovercrafts...and voice-acting...and some other stuff that's cool. Plus, it has a great story that only gets better the farther you go.

Probably one of the top three multiplatform games of this generations and one of the top ten games PERIOD this generation.

I quit playing when I couldn't progress in this area (not required, but one of the places with the tickets you can go to to get some (the big pit under the police headquarters which you need to go down to get some pearls)) because I couldn't get around this corner with the stupid semi-broken PC controls... it's not exactly a great port.

As for the game... I've talked about it before. I was dissapointed, and I don't think I need to go over the reasons again... it does have a good side, but it just did not live up to my expectations.

I don't know what you're talking about. Beyond Good and Evil is a great game and a platformer that does not rely overly on fetch-quests to progress the story. Well, unless you consider fighting or sneaking your way past enemy guards in well-crafted and diverse levels to get pictures of evil deeds. And for the most part getting pearls is fairly easy.

Wait, so is it a platformer or more of an adventure? Is it a mix of the two?

No matter, from how you describe it it's certainly worth a look.

Which version would you say is the best?

Quote:Wait, so is it a platformer or more of an adventure? Is it a mix of the two?

I guess I shouldn't have called it a platformer really, since it's a lot like a Zelda game: sort of an action-adventure game with no jump button.

Quote:Which version would you say is the best?

The Xbox version is probably the best, though they're probably not really that different. Except that I accidentally encountered a crippling glitch in the PS2 version so stay away from that one unless a PS2 is all you have.

Quote:I don't know what you're talking about. Beyond Good and Evil is a great game and a platformer that does not rely overly on fetch-quests to progress the story. Well, unless you consider fighting or sneaking your way past enemy guards in well-crafted and diverse levels to get pictures of evil deeds. And for the most part getting pearls is fairly easy.

Playing to get money, or pearls, or whatever, is called "collecting"... this game doesn't have it as bad as Star Fox adventures, sure, but that isn't really a game you want to be comparing yourself to... thinking to myself 'this combat is more fun than combat in SFA' isn't really a good thing.

Why was I dissapointed? Okay, again...

-Too easy (virtually no penalty for death (actually, quite the opposite. In some circumstances, the only way to win IS to die... such as a hard battle. Since when you die you start with one full health thing, sometimes if your health is really low the best way to progess is to get killed and try again with more health... yeah, not exactly the best gameplay design there. There's also the usually not particularly difficult combat, etc...)
-Simple combat (not awful, but simplistic)
-Linear, puzzle-room level design (NOT stealth, but puzzles like Blackthorne or something... stealth is Theif. This is nothing like that. "If you mess up you just run around the corner, hide in the pipe, wait ten seconds, go back, and start the puzzle over" isn't stealth. )
-Console adventure feel in a game that had potential to be more (if I want a linear 3d console platfomer, I'll play Rayman 2... this doesn't go as far beyond that as I would have liked, so say the least.)
-the bad controls and poor porting job of the PC version (doesn't run as well as it should either...)
-the setting -- it just isn't believable! I know if you play RPGs you get used to the "the world is small" or "the world is made up of tiny villages" thing, because full-size towns would be impossible to navigate or do anything in, but this goes beyond just scale... I find the concept of this rebellion hard to believe (they have a direct link to the planet governor's office? The rebels, despite their weak security, haven't been infiltrated (they said something about "seperate cells" and all, but if you're tied to the Governor's office... yeah.)? The supposedly oppressive, propagandistic government does nothing to stop protesters when people start to realize how bad their rule is (I know some people said that the increasing numbers of people protesting as you did better was a good feature, but I thought it was yet another symptom of the game being a console game before it was anything approaching realistic, or even believable within its own rules...)? Etc.), and the actions of the government (the evil one run by the aliens) hard to believe, etc...

Oh, and that newsreel clip that plays whenever you're in the lighthouse gets really annoying, really fast. :)

And it got such great press too... I was expecting a really good game. It's just a good one, with significant flaws. So I was fairly dissapointed.

Quote:Which version would you say is the best?

Anything that isn't the PC version.

the gamecube version is the best because the graphics are essentially identical to the XBox version and the controller is a million times more awesome.

this is probably my favorite game of this generation so everyone go out and play it right now.

Quote:-the bad controls and poor porting job of the PC version (doesn't run as well as it should either...)

And that's why you get Gamecube version!

Quote:Since when you die you start with one full health thing

No, it only give you four full hearts.

Quote:(NOT stealth, but puzzles like Blackthorne or something... stealth is Theif. This is nothing like that. "If you mess up you just run around the corner, hide in the pipe, wait ten seconds, go back, and start the puzzle over" isn't stealth.)

It's usually easier to sneak through, since those guys have shields and can take out two full hearts if they hit you.

Quote:-the setting -- it just isn't believable! I know if you play RPGs you get used to the "the world is small" or "the world is made up of tiny villages" thing, because full-size towns would be impossible to navigate or do anything in, but this goes beyond just scale... I find the concept of this rebellion hard to believe (they have a direct link to the planet governor's office? The rebels, despite their weak security, haven't been infiltrated (they said something about "seperate cells" and all, but if you're tied to the Governor's office... yeah.)? The supposedly oppressive, propagandistic government does nothing to stop protesters when people start to realize how bad their rule is (I know some people said that the increasing numbers of people protesting as you did better was a good feature, but I thought it was yet another symptom of the game being a console game before it was anything approaching realistic, or even believable within its own rules...)? Etc.), and the actions of the government (the evil one run by the aliens) hard to believe, etc...

It's a stylized fantasy sci-fi world, so it's not really supposed to be that believable. Also, after the final revalation you get the sense that quite a lot of people were used in order to set things up a certain way.

Quote:It's just a good one, with significant flaws. So I was fairly dissapointed.

You really need to play to the end. Really.

I saw the XBox version and I can tell you that the game looks identicle on GC and XBox.

I read on a message board on Gamefaqs that the GC version has more animals to take pictures of but dont bet on it. Like Big Guy said, the GC controller beats the piss out of the XBox controller(s) but the GC one is really hard to find. Ryan had to pick it up for me in his homeland.

Here's a mini review to give you an idea of the game: *ahem*

Take Starfox Adventures, make it not rushed with boring parts. Add the ability to use a camera in gameplay and for liesure. Give it some awesome puzzles and riddles to solve and have an 'Overworld/underworld' topography where you use a hovercraft to traverse a vast planet. Tons of mini games, high exploration, great story (and presentation) with very little replay value once you've completed the 100% run. Sound effects are usually well designed and well placed (5.1 too), music is some of the best quality you have ever heard in a game (lots of vocal, orchestra, MIDI and samples) with A+ voice acting (which is sometimes cut-off if you trigger the 'loading' screen when entering a new area, gets annoying but feh, it's still top-notch stuff).

Shooting, racing, fighting, flying, puzzle solving, exploration character-driven plot with purdy graphics to boot. Beyond Good and Evil is the biggest sleeper of this gen; definitely worth your time.

Well I do believe I'll check it out then.

At any rate, I have no issues with the smaller XBox Controller or anything. What I'm getting to is that, well, I like to save memory card space whenever possible so if for no other reason, I tend to pick the XBox version of games on all 3 systems.

Of course next gen, assuming they all have a nice massive storage medium, I'll need to find some other way to decide on various game versions. Most likely, random selection.

Quote:It's a stylized fantasy sci-fi world, so it's not really supposed to be that believable. Also, after the final revalation you get the sense that quite a lot of people were used in order to set things up a certain way.

Ooh, a "twist"? You mean there actually is one, like I've been expecting for a long time now! I should go play it right away then! I'm sure it'll be a complete surprise, just like the rest of this utterly original and hard to predict plot...

Quote:No, it only give you four full hearts.

That's what I meant -- it's quite a prize, when you had one or two! You're not supposed to make things EASIER for people when they die... you restart right where you died with the bonus of additional health. There is such a thing as "too forgiving"...

Quote:It's usually easier to sneak through, since those guys have shields and can take out two full hearts if they hit you.

Oh, yes, sure it is. But there is a big difference between the setup room-puzzles in this game and real stealth (like Theif, or even Metal Gear Solid in comparison...). As I said, these aren't stealth areas, they're a succession of rooms which you do one at a time (always in a completely linear fashion.), making it feel Zelda-like, except with trying to avoid the enemies instead of fight them. Except it's not as good as Zelda. And I don't see why people call it stealth.

Quote:It's a stylized fantasy sci-fi world, so it's not really supposed to be that believable.

That doesn't even begin to excuse it.

Quote:And that's why you get Gamecube version!

When I got it I don't think they had any copies of the GC version in... or perhaps they were $30 (or more?) while the PC one was $20... and I knew that lots of games are ported quite well to PC. How would I know that unlike most of my other PC games that are console ports (and I have a bunch), this one would be shoddy?

Anyway, I do wish that sometime they make a sequel, so that they can improve on the numerous problems in this game and bring the game a lot closer to realizing its potential...

Quote:Ooh, a "twist"? You mean there actually is one, like I've been expecting for a long time now! I should go play it right away then! I'm sure it'll be a complete surprise, just like the rest of this utterly original and hard to predict plot...

I highly doubt you'll be expecting this one, Brian, unless you read about the ending on GameFAQs or something. It's explains a lot of your points that you raised about things not being realistic, such as the direct line to the governor, why they don't arrest protesters, and why the Alpha Sections seems to be incredibly incompetent. By the way, it's a great story that wraps up quite nicely at the end, well worth the short amount of time and effort it takes to get there.

Quote:Oh, yes, sure it is. But there is a big difference between the setup room-puzzles in this game and real stealth (like Theif, or even Metal Gear Solid in comparison...). As I said, these aren't stealth areas, they're a succession of rooms which you do one at a time (always in a completely linear fashion.), making it feel Zelda-like, except with trying to avoid the enemies instead of fight them. Except it's not as good as Zelda. And I don't see why people call it stealth.

I didn't mind it at all and besides this is an action-adventure game ala Zelda, not Thief, Metal Gear Solid, or Splinter Cell. It asks you to be stealthy without punishing you too much when you aren't. Maybe they could have beefed it up a little bit, but as I said, I never had a problem with the way they implemented it.

Quote:That's what I meant -- it's quite a prize, when you had one or two! You're not supposed to make things EASIER for people when they die... you restart right where you died with the bonus of additional health. There is such a thing as "too forgiving"...

It's a refreshing change from games that punish you mercilessy when you die, like throwing you back to the last save point wherever that is. Also, it keeps playing till the end from being a burden. When you want to tell a great story you don't make seeing the ending a chore so few people ever get to it and just become frustrated and give up. I liked that it was easy, too many times I've gotten stuck in a game because a certain part was just too hard and I eventually just throw the controller down and never play it again. I'm glad I never did that in BG&E and got to see the ending.

The game kind of feels like they started trying to make the game something more, but gave up and went back to a standard console action/adventure... the story, setting, gameplay, etc. all could have done so much more but they just don't. It's only an above-average console action/adventure... not something deserving of the huge amounts of praise it gets.

Quote:I didn't mind it at all and besides this is an action-adventure game ala Zelda, not Thief, Metal Gear Solid, or Splinter Cell. It asks you to be stealthy without punishing you too much when you aren't. Maybe they could have beefed it up a little bit, but as I said, I never had a problem with the way they implemented it.

It's fun, in its limited way, but I was expecting more.

Quote:I highly doubt you'll be expecting this one, Brian, unless you read about the ending on GameFAQs or something. It's explains a lot of your points that you raised about things not being realistic, such as the direct line to the governor, why they don't arrest protesters, and why the Alpha Sections seems to be incredibly incompetent. By the way, it's a great story that wraps up quite nicely at the end, well worth the short amount of time and effort it takes to get there.

There hasn't been anything surprising in the plot yet, that's for sure... and I doubt that that'll change.

Quote:It's a refreshing change from games that punish you mercilessy when you die, like throwing you back to the last save point wherever that is. Also, it keeps playing till the end from being a burden. When you want to tell a great story you don't make seeing the ending a chore so few people ever get to it and just become frustrated and give up. I liked that it was easy, too many times I've gotten stuck in a game because a certain part was just too hard and I eventually just throw the controller down and never play it again. I'm glad I never did that in BG&E and got to see the ending.

There are games that have great stories. This isn't one of them. It's a pretty standard console-game story, not told much better (or worse) than any others...

Yes, sometimes I quit games because they're too hard... but sometimes I quit because I get bored, or get tired of it, or something else. BG&E falls into one of the later categories.

Oh, something else annoying about the game... Money -- it's too hard to get it... there are so many things you need to buy and you just don't get enough at a reasonable pace to be able to buy them -- particularly if you actually expect to buy healing items in addition to the other stuff in town, which you should!

Things are back to normal!

Quote:The game kind of feels like they started trying to make the game something more, but gave up and went back to a standard console action/adventure... the story, setting, gameplay, etc. all could have done so much more but they just don't. It's only an above-average console action/adventure... not something deserving of the huge amounts of praise it gets.

I think you're wrong, it deserves every bit of praise it's gotten.

Quote:There hasn't been anything surprising in the plot yet, that's for sure... and I doubt that that'll change.

It's not like it's an opinion, Brian.

Quote:but sometimes I quit because I get bored, or get tired of it, or something else. BG&E falls into one of the later categories.

It took me roughly 9 hours to beat it. It's not like this is Saga Frontier or something.

Quote:Oh, something else annoying about the game... Money -- it's too hard to get it... there are so many things you need to buy and you just don't get enough at a reasonable pace to be able to buy them -- particularly if you actually expect to buy healing items in addition to the other stuff in town, which you should

At any point in the game I would have between 5000 and 10000 monies [or whatever] and at the end of the game I had about 12 K-Bups stored up for the last battle [it took all of them, by the way]. I also would regularly by pearls [3000-4000] at the two shops in the game. Were you taking pictures of rare animals and bosses? Shooting at the boxed that float in the water in numerous locations? Breaking the purple crystals? Money is EVERYWHERE and quite easy to get.

Quote:There are games that have great stories. This isn't one of them. It's a pretty standard console-game story, not told much better (or worse) than any others...

It has a great story and the ending is even better. I suppose though I might have been better if the story had been told through tons of incredibly long and lifeless scrolls and all the conversations where you static images where everyone's dialogue was just written text. :D *ahem* Anyway, moving on...

Quote:The game kind of feels like they started trying to make the game something more, but gave up and went back to a standard console action/adventure... the story, setting, gameplay, etc. all could have done so much more but they just don't.

Play the rest of it and tell me that.

Quote:I think you're wrong, it deserves every bit of praise it's gotten.

Well, we disagree. :)

Quote:It's not like it's an opinion, Brian.

What do you mean?

Quote:At any point in the game I would have between 5000 and 10000 monies [or whatever] and at the end of the game I had about 12 K-Bups stored up for the last battle [it took all of them, by the way]. I also would regularly by pearls [3000-4000] at the two shops in the game. Were you taking pictures of rare animals and bosses? Shooting at the boxed that float in the water in numerous locations? Breaking the purple crystals? Money is EVERYWHERE and quite easy to get.

What game are you playing and where can I find it, because that doesn't sound much like the BG&E I played... I did buy like one pearl and eventually managed to afford the pearl detector, but I don't think I have the people detector yet (or if I do it was recently hours-wise), and certainly haven't been buying any more pearls... there just isn't much money and there are far too many things to uy, unless you run around in circles collecting money or something...

Quote:It has a great story and the ending is even better. I suppose though I might have been better if the story had been told through tons of incredibly long and lifeless scrolls and all the conversations where you static images where everyone's dialogue was just written text. *ahem* Anyway, moving on...

If that would mean a better story, then yes, it would.

Quote:What game are you playing and where can I find it, because that doesn't sound much like the BG&E I played... I did buy like one pearl and eventually managed to afford the pearl detector, but I don't think I have the people detector yet (or if I do it was recently hours-wise), and certainly haven't been buying any more pearls... there just isn't much money and there are far too many things to uy, unless you run around in circles collecting money or something...

What the heck game are you playing? Not BG&E, I can tell you that.

What methods are you using to get money?

Quote:What do you mean?

I said there was a surprise twist in the plot, you said there weren't any so far and that that wasn't go to change. It's not an opinion, there IS a surprise twist at the end.

Quote:I said there was a surprise twist in the plot, you said there weren't any so far and that that wasn't go to change. It's not an opinion, there IS a surprise twist at the end.

From the IGN review. (I know, they really liked it overall, but this is partially a criticism I also have...)

Quote:While Michel Ancel's story may teeter on the edge of heavy-handedness, it manages to be both less profound and more successful than the premise suggested. The themes of military and media corruption are surprisingly sophisticated and relevant, especially for a videogame, but the story doesn't offer quite as many ambiguities as you might expect. It does ultimately work, however, with unexpected developments and plot twists popping up at just the right times to keep you interested right through the end.

Quote:What the heck game are you playing? Not BG&E, I can tell you that.

What methods are you using to get money?

It took a long time before I was able to afford that stupid pearl detector...

Quote:From the IGN review.

I don't care what IGN said, there's a twist at the end that you won't be expecting. I can all but guarantee it. Not that it matters, because you don't seem to want to play it anymore anyway. It is there though for those who want to see it. Now that I think about it there's another one about an hour and half before the end, it's not as big though as the other one. So there's at least two that I can think of that you haven't gotten to yet.

Quote:It took a long time before I was able to afford that stupid pearl detector...

What methods are you using to get MONEY? Pearls don't get you money, ya know.

that IGN review says that there ARE in fact twists and enough to keep the story interesting. so i don't know why ABF is quoting it to defend his argument as it shoots it right in the head.

i think what blew me away was the WAY in which the story is told. the integration of cinematics into the gameplay. the amazing voice acting and music. it's onr\e of the best fusions of story and gameplay i've ever seen. i loved hearing radio broadcasts and newsreels slowly become audible as i approached and fade away as i walked away from the speaker. i liked to be able to sit at the radio and listen to what was happening in the world and that those things would change as i progressed in the game.

i also never viewed the "stealth" segments of the game as being "stealth segments" the sneaking was always a puzzle. i thought the game played a lot like the original oddworld (which i loved) but was also tons better in a lot of ways. mainly in terms of storytelling.

also. i never had a shortage of money so i have no idea what you're talking about there ABF.

essentially, everything GR has said about this game so far is 100% correct and anything anyone else has said is a complete lie.

Quote:that IGN review says that there ARE in fact twists and enough to keep the story interesting. so i don't know why ABF is quoting it to defend his argument as it shoots it right in the head.

Quote:While Michel Ancel's story may teeter on the edge of heavy-handedness, it manages to be both less profound and more successful than the premise suggested.

Heavy-handed it most certainly is... I'm not sure about the 'more successful' part, but 'less profound' is probably true too.

Quote:i also never viewed the "stealth" segments of the game as being "stealth segments" the sneaking was always a puzzle. i thought the game played a lot like the original oddworld (which i loved) but was also tons better in a lot of ways. mainly in terms of storytelling.

Yes, that is what they are, puzzles. Oddworld... not a bad comparison actually, because that's also got that 'solve the puzzle here and progress' level design...

Quote:i think what blew me away was the WAY in which the story is told. the integration of cinematics into the gameplay. the amazing voice acting and music. it's onr\e of the best fusions of story and gameplay i've ever seen. i loved hearing radio broadcasts and newsreels slowly become audible as i approached and fade away as i walked away from the speaker. i liked to be able to sit at the radio and listen to what was happening in the world and that those things would change as i progressed in the game.

IGN talks about this, and GR, and you, and others... but I just don't see it in anywhere near the same degree, as I've said in plenty of detail many times. There are just far too many things that hurt the illusion the game seems to have gone partway towards creating (and then abandoned and reverted back to a more normal console-game feel)... one of the reasons I stopped playing is that I just don't really care about the story enough to really want to finish it. Sure, it's mildly intresting, but there are lots of games out there with better stories, not to mention books or TV shows...

Quote:IGN talks about this, and GR, and you, and others... but I just don't see it in anywhere near the same degree

Because we've all beaten it, you haven't.

Quote:Sure, it's mildly intresting, but there are lots of games out there with better stories, not to mention books or TV shows...

BG&E has a better story than most videogames out there and its done better than most videogames.

Quote:Yes, that is what they are, puzzles. Oddworld... not a bad comparison actually, because that's also got that 'solve the puzzle here and progress' level design...

The original Oddworld was a fun game too.

Quote:i never had a shortage of money so i have no idea what you're talking about there ABF.

I don't either.

Quote:i think what blew me away was the WAY in which the story is told. the integration of cinematics into the gameplay. the amazing voice acting and music.

I'm with you 100% on that, everything blended together perfectly. And it only got better the closer you got to the ending.

I LOVE beyond good & evil, we just got the game recently and i've been completely addicted to it. I agree that the game gets better and better towards the end.
The music is really awesome, and I love the gameplay even though I would probably agree it is not as challenging as for instance zelda, but that also depends on how you play the game, because there is a lot of secret areas etc. that you can explore.

Oh and they're money freaking EVERYWHERE so if you're complaining about not having enough money you obviously haven't played the game very seriously.

Oh and lazy you suck for STILL not beating it! (freaking Final Fantasy - Gaystation addict)

hey hey hey, I am NOT a gaystation addict, it's Final Fantasy Tactics and it's awesome it's not my damn fault that the game came out on the gaystation... dammit. If I had my way it would be a N64 game and it would have been better for it with no loading times and the game only has two 20 second long CG cut scenes. I mean, "We cant do the kind of games we want to do on the N64" yeah, a whole MINUTE of CG cut scenes would have been cut out of the N64 version. Christ.

Yay! ThunderAngel is back! *has a party* *ThunderAngel leaves again* Aw man...:(

I started playing Beyond Good & Evil again because it's so awesome.

There's a big rumor that Ubi is looking in to a sequel specifically for Wii.

Sorry, but what I said about the game is deserved, GR... and anyway, the problems go beyond just the story.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=116875

I'm going to drop my views on opinions and say that since you haven't finished the game you have NO IDEA what you're talking about as far as the story is concerned. And you're absolutely wrong.

Stealth was always the weakest point of the game, I'll admit that, and making it better would have benefitted the game. But that aside, it's amazing in nearly every way.

Oh yeah, this game. Forgot about it's very existance because I mentally replaced all isntances of the name "beyond good and evil" with "black and white", and thought they were the same game. They are very similar names and if all you remember is "that a game" then it's an easy mistake to make.

Still getting the XBox version though.

Get the GC version or the Xbox version, steer clear of the PS2 version.

I was having great fun with it until I got stuck. It's excellent, and one day I'll finish it.

The later half of the game is even better than the first.

Quote:I'm going to drop my views on opinions and say that since you haven't finished the game you have NO IDEA what you're talking about as far as the story is concerned. And you're absolutely wrong.

I didn't finish it mainly because it didn't seem worth finishing. It's not awful, but it is hugely overrated and the performance and control problems with the PC version are serious.

A Black Falcon Wrote:I didn't finish it mainly because it didn't seem worth finishing. It's not awful, but it is hugely overrated and the performance and control problems with the PC version are serious.

You should have bought it for your GC.

Quote:You should have bought it for your GC.

The PC version was $20, the GC one unavailable and even if it had been would have cost quite a bit more, why would I get that one? I'd generally assume that the PC version is going to be best anyway... it ususally is. This kind of stuff is not normal...

It seems more appropriate to post this here, not there...

Quote:What you see as "flaws" in the story ARE NOT FLAWS. Not in the slighest are the majority of the things you've talked about before anywhere near being flaws. You don't know WHY they aren't flaws because you HAVEN'T FINISHED THE GAME. If you watch half of a movie and complain that the story doesn't make sense and has a lot of things that happen for bizarre reasons then I would tell you exactly the same thing.

You're annoying GR, OB1's gone yet you still have to act like him... we've been over this so many times before. It is, amazingly, actually possible to get impressions on how a game plays without beating it! Amazing! This stupid excuse has been so overused by you and OB1, and so obviously a dodge used when you can't think of anything that actually contradicts the actual points, that it's gotten real old...

Beating the game would only tell me the rest of the story. It wouldn't change how the world is presented, it wouldn't change the general game tone and presentation, it wouldn't change the combat model and puzzles, it wouldn't make me actually care much about the characters or suddenly make me say "wow that story isn't completely obvious and utterly predictable and bland after all!" because that wouldn't be true, it wouldn't change the complete lack of any reason to worry about being killed, it wouldn't change anything important I referenced in the main critique... why can't you just accept that not everyone thinks this game is as amazing as you do? My relatively mediocre opinions of the game were not built up over time -- right from the start, I knew that it wasn't anywhere near as good as I was hoping it would be... and that opinion didn't change.

(just remember, I DO think it's a good game! Just not a great one, and not some amazing, underappreciated jem. But it is good. The graphical design of the world is fantastic, the dungeons are often pretty fun, the overworld is nice (the hovercraft part, not so much the city, that's pretty average)... sure it has a lot of flaws too, but it's not like everything about it is bad.)

Well he was talking about the story, and he has a good point. You do sort of have to complete a story at least to make a judgement on it.

But ABF is talking about the gameplay right now, and apparently the PC controls are unbearable.

Here's the post in question.


(quoting myself from a while back, with a few edits made)
http://www.yakyak.org/viewtopic.php?t=48095&start=0

Quote:-Story -- simplistic, predictable, juvenile. They went a little bit of the way towards creating an interesting world, but beat you over the head with the message (yes, I get it, the government uses propaganda to control its people! ... if propaganda was really like that, it'd never be believed... it's a simple cartoon charicature of a government propaganda campaign...) and really put very little depth into the thing... once in a while the game tries to be more, and have true depth and an interesting, unique plot, but then it decends back into its normal simple conventions, and you realize that the potential the game has is not even close to being realized. The characters lack depth and are not very interesting, beyond the basic action/adventure kind of way (the praise this game gets leads you to believe that it is something more than just a typical action/adventure/RPG, but it really isn't, sadly...)... character development? Um, not much. Oh yes, and the Plot... Very simplistic and full of massive plot holes created by its very simplicity.

Really, it could have been great... with an interesting sci-fi story about aliens controlling a government and forcing policies bad for them on them by creating an other 'evil alien threat' that could have been done well... but the way it is done here, it simply does not achieve that. It needs less cartoony touches and more believable, complex plot... well, either that or it needs to drop all pretentions of depth and admit that it is the simple game that it is... one or the other. Being most of the way towards one end while making vague attempts at times to be on the other side does not work. (Such as the game's name... using the name of a Nietzsche book for a work so simplistic and utterly unrelated to anything he ever thought of is incredibly insulting to his work...)

-To be specific about my plot criticism. The simplicity of the scenario creates an impossible situation that I cannot ignore. One frequently-mentioned "good thing" about this game is the fact that as you progress in your campaign for the truth, people start to notice and protest... but... 1) That rebel cell base sure isn't hidden all that obtusely... 2) They have in it a line with direct contact to the planetary GOVERNOR'S office??? Huh??? This makes no sense... wouldn't the aliens have such options as as 'wiretapping' or 'monitoring what the puppet government is doing'? 3) If the bad guys were a real government that were as controlling as the game says they are, they would not allow protests like you see in the game to happen. The protestors would simply be squished as soon as they appeared. The way the game does it greatly hurts the game's realism and believability. Yes, I know that simple can be good, and complex might hurt the game's humor (which is mostly pretty good), but I'm sure they could make it work as a much better-realized game that has a much more cohesive, believable world than this one does... it really hurt the believability for me, even when I did know I should ignore it because the game is not trying to be complex.

-Gameplay (in the dungeons) -- this is not "stealth". Stealth is where you avoid things, or get punished. This is puzzle-rooms. Look at room. Solve puzzle in room. Go to next room. Solve puzzle in room. Yes, often that puzzle involves keeping away from enemies, but "stealth" it is not in anyone's wildest dreams... no game where all you have to do to escape from the guards is run back into the last hallway (in the linearly-laid-out dungeon), hide in the conveniently located dead-end drainage pipe in that hall between rooms, wait for the enemy to shoot at the wall for a few seconds, and try again, has "stealth". Just like with the story, the simplicity of this system makes it much less interesting than such things are in better games. Play Thief. Or even Lost Vikings, in the 'puzzle/adventure' category (if you ditch the ridiculous 'stealth' label)... now that was a great game...

-Combat. Very simple button-mashing.. hit attack. Do combo. Repeat. Sure, it's somewhat fun, and certainly vastly more entertaining than the tedium of the combat in Star Fox Adventures (that game makes BG&E look amazingly good...), but still, it's very simple. Not much here.

-Difficulty. The game is extremely lenient. Often, the best way to beat challenging enemies is to die, because you will start again in the same room (reset, but that's no penalty)... with MORE HEALTH THAN YOU STARTED WITH. Yeah, "difficult" this game is not. The health dispenser things are worthless since the best way to heal yourself is just to die...

-Money... I found myself without enough money (and with lots available to buy) a lot of the time. Maybe I just needed to return to old areas to farm monsters more often, but it was often annoying.

-Hype! Really, the massive hype for this game made me think that it'd be a great game, but I was extremely dissapointed... between the simple gameplay, simplistic story, basic message, lacking difficulty, etc. means that it just doesn't live up to it. This is the biggest problem with the game, really. If I'd gone in expecting a fun, but flawed, little game, perhaps I'd have enjoyed it, but after it'd been so massively hyped by so many people, finding it to be what it was was very dissapointing, even if it is overall a pretty good game...


Now... before it looks like I hate this game, I don't hate it. It's a decent game... B-range, I'd say. It has plenty of good things going for it, like a great sense of style and very nice graphical design. The graphics are great, and the artwork even better... The combat is a bit more fun than in some other games of this type (though that's not saying a whole lot). The story and characters are decent too, once you accept the game as the game it is and not the game that most people seem to claim it to be. Going around in the overworld with the hovercraft is fun, when the framerate isn't in single digits. The dungeons are well designed and almost always fun. The game has some clever puzzles, definitely. I'd like to finish it someday... oh yes, and really, the dungeons are the best part of the game -- most of the bad of the game goes away (all that is left is the pitifully simple difficulty level, really), and much of the good stands out... but on the whole? Beyond Good and Evil is a deeply flawed game. I do hope that a sequel is made, however. There are some good ideas here, and Michel Ancel can be amazingly good (Rayman 2 is astoundingly brilliant and is still one of the greatest 3d platformers ever made...) when he tries. This was clearly an attempt at a deep original property, and hopefully if they make another one they can realize it as such...

Quote:The real problem with this game probably was that it claimed to be trying to do more and be truly different from what had come before... and then it got all this hype that from people saying that it had succeeded... but, sadly, it just hadn't done that. Still, the basic idea was a good one. Like with most every aspect of the game, everything could have been done better than it was... it didn't really end up playing, or seeming, much different than what had come before. t is true though that the 'female journalist' thing was a bit different, and they did succeed at the 'female main character, but not a Lara Croft-style 'exists just for the sexuality' kind of character... and the pictures thing worked, as a collection element. It was certainly more fun than the frusterating task of collecting enough money to get all those stupid pearls with...

Really, probably a big part of my dissapointment was expectations. I'd read about the game, and thought it sounded amazing (a Zelda-ish game from the guy behind Rayman 2? I want that!)... a somewhat original game concept (female/journalist/etc), what seemed like the potential for some good storytelling, great artwork and art design (of course), etc... and then the reviews... and then it came out, and later I got it (for $20, so it wasn't too much, and not right at launch, but that doesn't really matter, what determines if a game was worth getting is how fun it is and how much you like it...)... and it just didn't live up to that. 'Accept that it's childish'? But that's the thing, IT doesn't completely accept that... it partially does, but it partially does not... it should have stuck to one or the other. Don't hint at a much more complex, deep storyline if you aren't actually following that plot... story is good, but not as much so when it's as simple and overdone as this. Really, though they don't necessarially have to make the story deep and complex, though I'd love to see that... they could just have it be at the level it is, but implemented better. Make the story more interesting and less predictable (as it is, there is nothing that you don't see coming ten steps ahead...). Make the conspiracy a bit more subtle. Have some less linear dungeons... and make it slightly harder, and make it a bit harder to escape the guards... in general, take what they had, but improve it. That's what I'd hope for from a sequel...

Part of this just seems to be opinion, though, like the 'how much do you like the characters' thing... how I just could not get past the hurdles and say 'it's great anyway' like I can with some games... there were too many of them, and they were too serious. But though I had issues with it, I kept going because I was having fun... money problems excepted... until I ran into that can't-get-past-it bug in that level that kept me from progressing, and I quit. Since I doubt that trying again would magically get me past the point, I'm not sure if going back would be worth it... especially given how much money I need, and how getting it isn't that fun... I probably will someday, but not that soon I expect. I would if I knew that the game would actually work... but the controls of this PC version are just so awful... I have a dual analog joystick! LET ME USE IT! Lazy, lazy port.

Oh yeah, I also think they maybe should have kept Jade's original design... they changed her to look a bit older and more experienced... (ignoring the obvious improvement of 'the final version used more polys') -- see IGN's early screenshots for Jade's original design.

Quote:You're annoying GR, OB1's gone yet you still have to act like him... we've been over this so many times before. It is, amazingly, actually possible to get impressions on how a game plays without beating it! Amazing! This stupid excuse has been so overused by you and OB1, and so obviously a dodge used when you can't think of anything that actually contradicts the actual points, that it's gotten real old...

I touched on that part because that was by far the weakest point in your post. Believe me, your notion that the story has "flaws" is based on a partial viewing of the game story and not the game story as whole. If you beat Beyond Good & Evil it will make a great deal of sense of the things you consider to be implausible. The last two hours mean EVERYTHING to the story.

Quote:Beating the game would only tell me the rest of the story. It wouldn't change how the world is presented, it wouldn't change the general game tone and presentation, it wouldn't change the combat model and puzzles, it wouldn't make me actually care much about the characters or suddenly make me say "wow that story isn't completely obvious and utterly predictable and bland after all!" because that wouldn't be true, it wouldn't change the complete lack of any reason to worry about being killed, it wouldn't change anything important I referenced in the main critique... why can't you just accept that not everyone thinks this game is as amazing as you do? My relatively mediocre opinions of the game were not built up over time -- right from the start, I knew that it wasn't anywhere near as good as I was hoping it would be... and that opinion didn't change.

Why can't you accept that the story means a lot more to the game than you give it credit for?

And if you don't care about the characters, will there's not much I can do about that and there's probably no point in finishing the game because it likely won't mean much to you anyway. Just don't try to argue with me about the whole story in the game.

By the way, the stealth aspect of the game was much more fun the second time through when I wasn't trying to rush everything.

Quote:But ABF is talking about the gameplay right now, and apparently the PC controls are unbearable.

Okay, so it's a sloppy port. That's got very little to do with the game in general.

Well, I'm not one to let harsh criticism ruin my favorite things and Beyond Good & Evil is no exception to that. The amazing music [some of the best this generation], the stunning locations [and there are quite a few], the story [yes, the story], the characters [complete with a healthy does of above average voice-acting and decent writing], and the absolutely this-will-blow-you-away ending [in more ways than one I think]. After finishing it, I got a really peaceful feeling like I'd just finished a wonderful movie and all I felt like doing was sitting there for a few minutes and watching the credits go by.

And I'm not mad at ABF anymore for not appreciating this game, and really it's one that you need to beat to fully appreciate. After such an amazing ending really the only thing I feel towards ABF is pity. Pity that he'll never be able to experience the game that way I have. I feel sorry for you, guy, I really do.

Quote:And I'm not mad at ABF anymore for not appreciating this game, and really it's one that you need to beat to fully appreciate. After such an amazing ending really the only thing I feel towards ABF is pity. Pity that he'll never be able to experience the game that way I have. I feel sorry for you, guy, I really do.

You shouldn't, it's only a decent game at best... though I'm sure that there are plenty of games which I feel that way about you about... :)

Quote:the story [yes, the story]

I truly cannot understand why anyone would say that the story is a draw for the game...

Quote:After finishing it, I got a really peaceful feeling like I'd just finished a wonderful movie and all I felt like doing was sitting there for a few minutes and watching the credits go by.

I felt that way when I finished Illusion of Gaia yesterday. Great game... short (I just got it a month ago or something and actually stuck with it, which says something when I've only managed to beat a couple of SNES/Genesis games...), but a lot of fun, and the ending was very satisfying. Sure, there was some awful, broken english (or "too direct a translation, losing the meaning" perhaps?) along the way that made parts of the plot impossible to understand, but you expect that from 16-bit RPGs, so that's okay. :) Just a good game with a nice ending.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you anymore because I don't care to. I've already said everything I wanted to say about it.

I love almost everything about it, including the story and even, to an extent, the stealth section [which really is much more fun when you're not trying to rush things, just relax and take it in stride].

Quote:You shouldn't, it's only a decent game at best...

Oh how I wish you could see the things that I have seen.