Quote:Sony relies on third parties for most of its PSP lineup. Are third parties fully there yet? Will the PSP be as strongly supported as past Sony consoles? The jury is not back in yet, you know. Don't pretend like it is.
What an incredibly ignorant thing to say. Just about every third-party out there is signed up for PSP development, and the launch lineup shows how great it is. Your logic baffles me.
Quote:And the DS just doesn't have quite as bad a released lineup as you say... I'm sure more than two games are worth buying.
The only other game that's
almost worth buying is Feel the Magic. That's it.
Quote:But as I said... it's spring! You shouldn't be expecting more than a few decent games per month for ANY platform. The PSP is just an exception because it's launching. After launch it should get a bit more normal.
Hey guess what? The system launched in the
fall!
Quote:The GB had plenty of good games. Just ones that often weren't quite as great as their NES cousins. But still, that doesn't make them bad games! Definitely not! And anyway, it meant that instead of ports we got new games... always nice (nicer than ports), even if they are only 80 or 90% as good as the NES titles were.
Did I say "bad"? No. I said "very few good games".
Quote:At least older tech forces different games. Ones more designed for that platform. And in this current generation, I also like how the DS actually has some 2d games... as opposed to PSP which I'm sure will be 99% 3D. 2d works very well on handhelds. 3d has more problems, given the small images... and I like 2d gaming and don't want it to totally go away. It's been great to see Nintendo support the DS with a bunch of 2d titles.
Correction: 3D games look
terrific on the PSP. The screen is fucking HUGE. Just wait until you see one in person. The DS is more welcoming to 2D because of the unique hardware, and because it doesn't do 3D nearly as well as the PSP.
Quote:As for DS games... Yoshi's Touch n Go looks cool, for another (new) title.
Yeah, it's gotten some good reviews. I'll get it... eventually.
Quote:What an incredibly ignorant thing to say. Just about every third-party out there is signed up for PSP development, and the launch lineup shows how great it is. Your logic baffles me.
Based solely on number of titles, how does the DS actually compare to the PSP right now? Not your propaganda, the actual numbers.
Quote:The only other game that's almost worth buying is Feel the Magic. That's it.
WarioWare and Yoshi don't count?
Quote:Hey guess what? The system launched in the fall!
I am, obviously, talking about the US...
Quote:Did I say "bad"? No. I said "very few good games".
And I said that that's not true.
Quote:Correction: 3D games look terrific on the PSP. The screen is fucking HUGE. Just wait until you see one in person. The DS is more welcoming to 2D because of the unique hardware, and because it doesn't do 3D nearly as well as the PSP.
It's still a LOT smaller than a TV and that requires adjustments ingame. You can't just take a TV-sized game, shrink it to a small screen, and call it good. Especially with 3D, you've got to make changes to make it easier on the player... small-screen 3D can be tricky, no matter how comparitively large the graphics are. So you've got to optimize it for the platform and that means not just ports, but changing the game... like an article I read about a racing game for PSP (Need for Speed?) and how to make it easier to play on a small screen (compared to PS2) they had to do things like lights along the sides of the turns (different on the left and right I believe), a smaller cityscape, no lights above a few floors above the road on the buildings, etc... otherwise all the detail just confused the player on a small screen.
Quote:Based solely on number of titles, how does the DS actually compare to the PSP right now? Not your propaganda, the actual numbers.
"Propaganda"?
Why don't you make a list of all of the awesome DS titles then? I have a system, so it's not like I
don't want there to be any more good games. Haha, what a tool.
Here's a list for you:
All DS titles released up until now:
Robots
Wario Ware Touched!
Zoo Keeper
Tiger Woods PGA Tour Golf 2005
Ping Pals
Sprung
Ridge Racer DS
Mr. Driller Drill Spirits
Madden NFL 2005
The Urbz: Sims in the City
Super Mario 64 DS
Asphalt: Urban GT
Feel the Magic: XY/XX
Spider-Man 2
Pokemon Dash
Yoshi's Touch & Go (comes out this week)
And
just the PSP launch lineup (note: some titles are expected to be released within a couple of weeks of launch):
# Ape Escape®: On the Loose, Sony Computer Entertainment America
# ATV Offroad Fury®: Blazin' Trails, Sony Computer Entertainment America
# Darkstalkers Chronicle™: The Chaos Tower, Capcom
# Dynasty Warriors®, KOEI
# FIFA 2005, Electronic Arts
# Gretzky™ NHL ®, Sony Computer Entertainment America
# Lumines™, Ubisoft
# Metal Gear Acid™, Konami
# MLB™, Sony Computer Entertainment America
# MVP Baseball, Electronic Arts
# NBA, Sony Computer Entertainment America
# NBA Street Showdown, Electronic Arts
# Need for Speed™ Rivals, Electronic Arts
# NFL Street 2 Unleashed, Electronic Arts
# Rengoku™: Tower of Purgatory, Konami
# Ridge Racer™, Namco
# Smartbomb, Eidos Interactive
# Spider-Man 2™, Activision
# Tiger Woods PGA TOUR®, Electronic Arts
# Tony Hawk's Underground 2 Remix , Activision
# Twisted Metal: Head On™, Sony Computer Entertainment America
# Untold Legends: Brotherhood of the Blade , Sony Online Entertainment
# Wipeout® Pure, Sony Computer Entertainment America
# World Tour Soccer, Sony Computer Entertainment America
You can proceed to eat crow now.
Quote:WarioWare and Yoshi don't count?
I already said Wario Ware. That's the other game I have aside from Mario 64. Feel the Magic is cute, but definitely not worth $30. Yoshi isn't out yet. It's coming out tomorrow. Not a AAA title though.
Quote:I am, obviously, talking about the US...
The DS launched in the U.S. first, you know.
Quote:And I said that that's not true.
And you are wrong.
Quote:It's still a LOT smaller than a TV and that requires adjustments ingame. You can't just take a TV-sized game, shrink it to a small screen, and call it good. Especially with 3D, you've got to make changes to make it easier on the player... small-screen 3D can be tricky, no matter how comparitively large the graphics are. So you've got to optimize it for the platform and that means not just ports, but changing the game... like an article I read about a racing game for PSP (Need for Speed?) and how to make it easier to play on a small screen (compared to PS2) they had to do things like lights along the sides of the turns (different on the left and right I believe), a smaller cityscape, no lights above a few floors above the road on the buildings, etc... otherwise all the detail just confused the player on a small screen.
The difference is negligable. Wait until you see something like Wipeout on a PSP screen. You won't believe your eyes.
Quote:The difference is negligable. Wait until you see something like Wipeout on a PSP screen. You won't believe your eyes.
It was an interesting half-page article, with screenshots... the difference was obvious, and their reasons pretty good. Similar, yes, but it requires some changes.
Quote:And you are wrong.
Sorry, but no. The original GB has plenty of good games.
Quote:I already said Wario Ware. That's the other game I have aside from Mario 64. Feel the Magic is cute, but definitely not worth $30. Yoshi isn't out yet. It's coming out tomorrow. Not a AAA title though.
Not many AAA titles come out this time of year, so that's to be expected.
Quote:The DS launched in the U.S. first, you know.
... what I should have said was 'I'm talking about now'. As in, this time of year -- February through September. When you get just a thin trickle of good games, and lots more not so great stuff getting released at off times (that is, not christmastime). There aren't huge lineups of games being released for ANY platforms this time of year.
Games released: 16 so far for DS, 22 launch titles for the PSP. Obviously Sony has more third party support than Nintendo, though of course it will, with the much more conventional console and Sony's much greater interest in attracting third parties... but still, that isn't so bad. Sure, DS has been out a lot longer, but... you can only expect so much from Nintendo... they can't make enough games to make up for all the third parties not developing for them, and I don't want to see them just making conventional stuff ('just better than what came before, not innovative') like the PSP!
I like Megaman 5 (didn't play the first 4, but the 5th is easily one of the best games in the series), Donkey Kong Land (not just a remake of DKC like the other two "land" titles would be, it really was a unique title, and a fun one at that, basically Donkey Kong trying to prove his games can be just as fun on a less powerful system to the original Donkey Kong, Cranky), Zelda: LA (I think I like this better than LTTP), Metroid 2, Wario Land, the almighty first portable version of TETRIS (best... packin... ever), Pokémon (this was an age before the series evolved into the old game plus a few creatures, attacks, and a different setting), Final Fantasy Adventure (yes, the later games in the series are better, by far, but they didn't exist yet when this was released, and it was still a VERY fun game in it's own right, so such a comparison is pointless), Donkey Kong (not just the old arcade game, a 100 level amazement of puzzly proportions, Mario vs Donkey Kong is the sequel, it was good stuff), and oh yes, the first Kirby game (again, later games were better, but this was the first and still a great game on it's own so such a comparison is unfair). Those are just the games I've actually played mind you.
I enjoyed the two Mario Land games (the ones that actually had Mario) well enough I suppose...
Anyway, I must say that the original Gameboy had an AWESOME assortment of great games. Sure, the utter karp outweighs it heavily, but that can be said about EVERY system ever made.
Quote:It was an interesting half-page article, with screenshots... the difference was obvious, and their reasons pretty good. Similar, yes, but it requires some changes.
Yeah, negligable changes. Like film to dvd.
Quote:Sorry, but no. The original GB has plenty of good games.
Nice rebuttal.
Quote:Not many AAA titles come out this time of year, so that's to be expected.
Quote:... what I should have said was 'I'm talking about now'. As in, this time of year -- February through September. When you get just a thin trickle of good games, and lots more not so great stuff getting released at off times (that is, not christmastime). There aren't huge lineups of games being released for ANY platforms this time of year.
Really? Huh. I guess Gran Turismo 4, Devil May Cry 3, Jade Empire, the PSP and its slew of great titles, and Donkey Kong Jungle Beat are all crappy games. Whaddya know. You learn new things everyday!
Quote:Games released: 16 so far for DS, 22 launch titles for the PSP. Obviously Sony has more third party support than Nintendo, though of course it will, with the much more conventional console and Sony's much greater interest in attracting third parties... but still, that isn't so bad. Sure, DS has been out a lot longer, but... you can only expect so much from Nintendo... they can't make enough games to make up for all the third parties not developing for them, and I don't want to see them just making conventional stuff ('just better than what came before, not innovative') like the PSP!
Please list out all of the conventional PSP games and all of the unconventional DS games. Please, do so.
Dark Jaguar Wrote:I like Megaman 5 (didn't play the first 4, but the 5th is easily one of the best games in the series), Donkey Kong Land (not just a remake of DKC like the other two "land" titles would be, it really was a unique title, and a fun one at that, basically Donkey Kong trying to prove his games can be just as fun on a less powerful system to the original Donkey Kong, Cranky), Zelda: LA (I think I like this better than LTTP), Metroid 2, Wario Land, the almighty first portable version of TETRIS (best... packin... ever), Pokémon (this was an age before the series evolved into the old game plus a few creatures, attacks, and a different setting), Final Fantasy Adventure (yes, the later games in the series are better, by far, but they didn't exist yet when this was released, and it was still a VERY fun game in it's own right, so such a comparison is pointless), Donkey Kong (not just the old arcade game, a 100 level amazement of puzzly proportions, Mario vs Donkey Kong is the sequel, it was good stuff), and oh yes, the first Kirby game (again, later games were better, but this was the first and still a great game on it's own so such a comparison is unfair). Those are just the games I've actually played mind you.
I enjoyed the two Mario Land games (the ones that actually had Mario) well enough I suppose...
Anyway, I must say that the original Gameboy had an AWESOME assortment of great games. Sure, the utter karp outweighs it heavily, but that can be said about EVERY system ever made.
So like a dozen or so good games in a system's lifetime of a decade is considered an "AWESOME assortment of great games"? The original Gameboy had a
pitiful lineup compared to every other Nintendo system save the Virtual Boy.
Well okay if that's not enough for you then you could check out the games I didn't list. I only listed the ones I've actually played because I thought that would be enough to remind you of why that system was so succesful. I mean, it didn't sell because of popularity alone right? If that's all there was to it, the GG would have totally beaten it due to how popular that was... at first...
First off, I should say I really wasn't trying to insult you, so no need to be sarcastic to me. I know you are in a fight with ABF but I'm just trying to offer my opinion here based on what I've played, and I liked what I played.
What other games have I heard of that were reasons to own the GB... Hmm... There was the Final Fantasy Legends series of games, which was a nice RPG series so I've heard (never played it), and the first 4 Megaman games were apparently pretty good too (though apparently the 5th, the only one I've played, is the best of the lot).
Thing is, for every system I've played, there are only about 20 or so over the course of the system I really think are "must haves". At least, that's the pattern I've seen. It's been broken this generation I think though... There's been an explosion in the past two or three years of awesome games the likes of which I never saw before. I mean, I can only really list about 20 or so games that defined the Super Nintendo experience. About 8 are RPGs (Final Fantasy, Earthbound, Breath of Fire...). Outside of that core experience, most SNES games just aren't worth owning, to me anyway. Again, I'm very picky. I didn't list modestly fun games like Bugs Bunny's Crazy Castle because, well, it's just moderatly fun, something that's fun to play but I really wouldn't pay full price for it... ever...
So yeah, I would say the GB had an awesome assortment of great games. Should that assortment have been bigger given it's lifespan from 1989 to 1999-ish? Yeah, it probably should have, but it was still definitly a system worth having. Certainly, I'd say that anyone who didn't get it missed out on a large number of great games. I really think that games like Link's Awakening, Tetris, Wario Land, and Donkey Kong are ones that people should play.
That's all... I mean, if you don't think those were very good games or anything, that's okay, but I loved them.
Now, if you want to bring up the disappointing lineup of Gameboy Color games, go for it! That had... well honestly only 4 games.. TOTAL... were worth my money. Those being, Super Mario Bros DX (A remake of an awesome game, including a neutered version of another awesome game, hard to call it an exclusive...), the Oracle games (good and original games, but honestly, not as good as the Zelda games before it, still, they are the crown jewels of the GBC), and finally, Zelda LA DX, which isn't really a GBC game so much as a GBC enabled GB game. Honestly, the improvements are nice, but an extra dungeon and a photo hunt, the latter of which can still be done on the original Gameboy, is not exactly a good reason to get a GBC. Oh, there's a 5th game I guess. There's Pokemon Crystal, a part of the "Metal" game series that, for reasons unexplained, can only be played on a GBC (while Gold and Silver were only GBC enabled and could still be played on the original GB, meaning they are part of the GB line of games), but um... that's not worth getting a GBC over. Yes, I would call the GBC a failure, except that it sold so inexplicably WELL, namely due to the system's existing popularity in the orignal GB.
I gotta say, ABF (and to a lesser extent GR..) I usually really enjoy your arguements with OB1, and think usually you put up a better fight than OB1 likes to make out.. but in this case, I think you're way off the mark here.
You're putting a lot of focus on Nintendo being only one developer/publisher, and Sony having the advantage purely because of third parties, but looking at those two lists.. it seems to me that Sony's in-house offering is also far superior to what Nintendo itself already has out.
And I never thought I'd see the day that a machine would be bashed for having too much power. PSP offering only standard console fair? Only ports of PS2 games?? What exactly is the biggest game on DS right now? An N64 port? Why do I even need a PSP, when I can go out and play Lumines and Metal Gear Acid on my PS2 today! Great!!
DS has
potential to offer unique experiences. Well, until this idea comes into fruition (I mean, ABF himself said that Nintendo can only do so much itself..) it's really a moot point. The PSP's more powerful hardware can also offer so much more than what the DS can offer. But wait, that's a bad thing.
I've only skimmed the whole thing... is that really what they've been doing, bashing the system for having too much power? Yeah, that is silly... In this case, I think that ABF has gotten so used to arguing with OB1 that he actually is doing, for the very first time, the things that OB1 has always accused him of. It's like some weird psychology stuff only lazy could explain to us.
The PSP has a lot of potential right now. I've said from the very beginning that I had my doubts namely because I didn't think that a very expensive handheld could succeed. When the DS was later announced, pretty quickly really, I said that if Nintendo's DS did well then I could easily see the PSP at least competing with them, though I didn't think they would dominate Nintendo in the least. Still, my own thoughts were that people wouldn't want to buy something that expensive. It wasn'treally a Nintendo vs Sony thing in my mind, but rather a cheap but weak vs expensive but powerful thing. When the DS actually sold by huge amounts, then I realized that peopel were willing to pay more for a more powerful system, and so I realized the PSP could do well, assuming it wasn't TOO expensive. I haven't read much about it, so I don't know the price, but so long as it isn't too much more than the price of a PS2, and the battery life is decent, then it'll do pretty well. Oh yes, I forgot that I said some things about the battery life, namely that I didn't think that it would be very long at all. Turned out it isn't very long, and predictably, Nintendo is attacking it. No matter, at the time I also thought that poor battery life might impact sales of the system if people today care about it as much as people cared about battery life with the Game Gear. OB1 pointed out that hey, this has rechargeble batteries. True enough, though my main fear was in them dying between opportunities to charge them back up. It's still something I don't like about it, but oh well, sales tell me that Japan, a country that cares more about battery life than us, doesn't care enough that they won't buy it.
Anyway, summery, the DS is doing VERY well, and the PSP, while not doing as well as the DS, is holding it's own very well indeed, as I thought might happen if people actually wanted to dish out that money. All in all, hopefully the PSP will sell well enough that Nintendo has some real competition that forces them to do more than release what are literally ports of old NES games, just as an example.
Quote:Really? Huh. I guess Gran Turismo 4, Devil May Cry 3, Jade Empire, the PSP and its slew of great titles, and Donkey Kong Jungle Beat are all crappy games. Whaddya know. You learn new things everyday!
PSP is different, it's a system launch... and it's been delayed. I'm sure Sony didn't choose to release it in spring!
As for other games, Jungle Beat isn't a AAA title. Others? As I said, a few a month. Your list there doesn't contradict it. Honestly, don't argue this. It's impossible, as it is a very well known fact that the highest quantity of good games comes out around chistmas. Oh, others come in around the year, but not in large numbers and not consistently. It's a sad fact brought on by how dominant the christmas season is on the year's game sales. And that's why Nintendo, as always, is backloading its schedule so the best stuff comes out around then. For the DS as well as the GC.
Quote:Yeah, negligable changes. Like film to dvd.
Film to DVD is just cleaning up the picture, though... home console to portable is more than that.
Quote:Please list out all of the conventional PSP games and all of the unconventional DS games. Please, do so.
PSP: buttons, controls, screen. DS: touchscreen and microphone. And games that use it. That means more innovative control systems and more innovative games. It'll take some time for the best uses of them to come out, but we already see some with stuff like WarioWare and Yoshi...
Quote:So like a dozen or so good games in a system's lifetime of a decade is considered an "AWESOME assortment of great games"? The original Gameboy had a pitiful lineup compared to every other Nintendo system save the Virtual Boy.
Virtual Boy had twelve games, period. GB has a huge library.
Okay, want a list of good to great GB games?
-Super Mario Land
-Super Mario Land II: Six Golden Coins
-Wario Land: Super Mario Land II
-Wario Land II (the B&W version)
-Kirby's Dream Land
-Kirby's Dream Land II
-Kirby's Pinball Land
-Kirby's Block Ball
-The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening
-Metroid II: Return of Samus
-Kid Icarus: Of Myths and Monsters
-Revenge of the Gator
-Bomberman GB
-Nemesis (GB adaptation of Gradius I)
-Micro Machines (GB port of Micro Machines, pretty similar to the other versions.)
-Micro Machines II (same as the first.)
-R-Type
-R-Type II
-Gradius: The Interstellar Assualt
-Final Fantasy Adventure
-Final Fantasy Legend I
-Final Fantasy Legend II
-Final Fantasy Legend III
-Mega Man - Dr. Wily's Revenge (yes, the first four have old bosses and remixed levels, but they aren't exact ports.)
-Mega Man II
-Mega Man III
-Mega Man IV
-Mega Man V
-Mole Mania
-Tetris
-Bionic Commando (Not a port! It's a new game!)
-Pokemon
-Donkey Kong
-Donkey Kong Land I (original game)
-Donkey Kong Land II (SNES port)
-Donkey Kong Land III (SNES port)
-Super Return of the Jedi
-NBA Jam TE
-TMNT (three games, each better than the one before it. Sidescrollers.)
-Great Greed
-Harvest Moon GB
-Super RC Pro-Am
-Gargoyle's Quest
-Castlevania II
-Operation C
-Contra: The Alien Wars
-Faceball 2000
That's a good start, but obviously I'm sure I missed some good ones.
Here's one you forgot ABF. Wario vs Bomberman! I totally forgot about that one! Like all Bomberman games, it was awesome. For some reason, probably because Wario is in there, it's a favorite in the series for me. Also, it's fun to kick bombs while riding a motorcycle. It had SGB support meaning when you played it on an SGB, you could play multiplayer without using a link cable using a single cart. It even supported the SNES multitap via the Super Gameboy. That's like, duel layer accessory support! Well, the official multitap for SNES was made by Hudson... I guess it makes sense they, of all people, would include that sort of support.
Oh and, yeah the Castlevania games on that system were unique, not remakes or ports. There's also the first one and the 3rd one. The 3rd one had the original Belmont, well, until Lament of Innocence was released... They were the "old style" before Symphony of the Night, but the old style Castlevania games were still fun.
Donkey Kong Land 2 and 3 weren't exactly ports so much as ground up remakes, as they had to be, but yeah I get what you mean.
Yeah, I know the first 4 Megaman games aren't exact ports. Heck, they aren't even ports. The only thing they have in common from what I've read and been told is that the NES game bosses have been put in there. The stories aren't even the same. I think you even get some different powers from them. I know the bosses are actually mixed selections from across a few NES Megaman games, so like, I guess you could use Metal Blades against Elecman? I know I am getting impatient regarding the GB collection for GBA.
Oh yeah, from what I've read, Kid Icarus for GB is actually an exact port of the NES game EXCEPT for the last boss, which is totally different. Hard to say if that makes it a unique game or not... I don't know, I haven't actually played it.
...Revenge of the Gator? Never heard of it I'm afraid... But um... What sort of game could that be?
That's Wario Blast, DJ. :) Haven't played it. But I have played Bomberman GB, so I listed that one.
Bomberman GB is why I wanted a Super Game Boy... you can only play multiplayer in that game on SGB. Yeah, no link-cable multi, ONLY SGB... but it supports 4 players there...
Revenge of the Gator... I haven't played it either, but it's a pinball game. Got good reviews, said to be like the fantastic Kirby Pinball.
I tried to note when a game was a port or otherwise not completely original. And left out games I thought of but I wouldn't call 'good'. For instance, some people would say
-Ken Griffey Jr. Presents Major League Baseball
should be on the list, but it annoyed me and I didn't like it much, so I didn't put it there despite good reviews.
Quote:Oh and, yeah the Castlevania games on that system were unique, not remakes or ports. There's also the first one and the 3rd one. The 3rd one had the original Belmont, well, until Lament of Innocence was released... They were the "old style" before Symphony of the Night, but the old style Castlevania games were still fun.
I listed the second one because Castlevania: The Adventure (I) is said to be awful and the third one, Castlevania Legends, not as good as II. II is the best. Though the only one of the three I've played is Castlevania: The Adventure... but I probably should have listed Castlevania Legends too, at least.
Quote:Donkey Kong Land 2 and 3 weren't exactly ports so much as ground up remakes, as they had to be, but yeah I get what you mean.
I was a completely new game. II and III were conversions of the SNES titles, not original titles. Easy distinction.
Quote:Yeah, I know the first 4 Megaman games aren't exact ports. Heck, they aren't even ports. The only thing they have in common from what I've read and been told is that the NES game bosses have been put in there. The stories aren't even the same. I think you even get some different powers from them. I know the bosses are actually mixed selections from across a few NES Megaman games, so like, I guess you could use Metal Blades against Elecman? I know I am getting impatient regarding the GB collection for GBA.
A bunch of the levels are essentially ports of the original levels... some aren't, like all of the levels in Mega Man I, but others are clearly converted NES levels... so I said that. The bosses are like that too -- same enemies, same weapons, but all redone for the small screen, with the large sprites, so there's a lot less room to dodge the bosses... changes boss fights. And of course you fight them in different orders and only fight four at a time.
MMV of course has all-new bosses, but in the first four all the robot masters are old. Only the Wily-level bosses are new.
As for mixing... MMI has four from 1 (NES) and four from 2, II has the other 4 from 2 and four from 3, III has four from 3 and four from 4, IV has four from 4 and four from 5... II and III don't have much new. Just redone stages and stuff. It's IV that really changes things, with the P-chips and store, Beat, etc. And then V of course was really different. But anyway, I've played I, II, and IV and all three are great... though II is way too easy and I is a bit frusterating. IV is just right, and has new features too! :)
MMI has levels that are all new. It only has six levels, but all six are new designs. MMII and MMIV, though, don't have that... the castles and Wily levels are new, but the Robot Master stages are either clearly based on the NES levels or are just the NES levels redesigned to fit onto a small screen. Less originality than the first game, perhaps... but more total stages, so it's not so bad. They still have changes with the four-at-a-time and different orders. For instance, in MMI the first four are Fire Man, Elec Man, Ice Man, and Cut Man. The best order to take them in is probably Fire, Ice, Elec, and finally Cut... or maybe that was Fire, Elec, Ice, and Cut... I can't quite remember. ... yeah, I think it was Ice third... :) Really, you could do Elec or Ice first too, but they were probably tougher than Fire Man to take with the Mega Buster (though he wasn't super easy either, and has a weakness to the Ice weapon). Anyway, either way is different from the NES game for sure.
Quote:Oh yeah, from what I've read, Kid Icarus for GB is actually an exact port of the NES game EXCEPT for the last boss, which is totally different. Hard to say if that makes it a unique game or not... I don't know, I haven't actually played it.
I haven't played it either, but I didn't think it was only a port (other than the final boss)... I'm not certain, though, of course. But things like the different title (or rather, the added subtitle) hint at changes.
Ah yes, Wario Blast: Wario vs Bomberman (I guess I remembered the subtitle as the main title).
Edit: Got it wrong twice. The full name of the game is actually Wario Blast Featuring Bomberman! I guess I remember that name simply because "this guy vs that guy" type titles are pretty freakin' common... Oh well, mistake corrected.
Oh ABF, the story of Wario Blast is basically that Wario and Bomberman met, but thanks to Wario's greed, got off on the wrong foot and are now battling each other, but the reality is a much bigger threat is looming ahead they have to take care of. When you finally beat the final boss, the both of you race each other on your motorcycles in the ending, with a grudging respect. Fortunatly, this game has multiplayer in the normal GB way as well as via SGB. Never used it because I was the only one I knew with a copy of the game, but the instruction booklet made it clear it supported it.
The game is pretty fun. I don't recall a marathon boss battle on the last level, but the boss battles are still pretty fun. The enemies are failry intelligent too. Oh, in one level there is apparently a hidden easter egg, the game itself tells you it's in that world, but I don't think I ever actually found it... Since that game was stolen from me some time ago, I can't check up on that now...
I added some to that post.
Wario Blast... just a straight series of levels with no story or anything, right? Bomberman GB has a story, such as it is... eight worlds, etc. Never beat it, though. The eighth (and last) world is 'fight all the bosses in the game one after another', and they are HARD!
Holy karp! You guys posted a lot last night! Anyway, there's no way I'm going to try to sift through all that to try and find something to reply to. Besides I already said just about everything I want to say.
Quote:In this case, I think that ABF has gotten so used to arguing with OB1 that he actually is doing, for the very first time, the things that OB1 has always accused him of. It's like some weird psychology stuff only lazy could explain to us.
Oh believe me, this is
far from the first time he's done this. FAR from it.
Quote:Well okay if that's not enough for you then you could check out the games I didn't list. I only listed the ones I've actually played because I thought that would be enough to remind you of why that system was so succesful. I mean, it didn't sell because of popularity alone right? If that's all there was to it, the GG would have totally beaten it due to how popular that was... at first...
First off, I should say I really wasn't trying to insult you, so no need to be sarcastic to me. I know you are in a fight with ABF but I'm just trying to offer my opinion here based on what I've played, and I liked what I played.
What other games have I heard of that were reasons to own the GB... Hmm... There was the Final Fantasy Legends series of games, which was a nice RPG series so I've heard (never played it), and the first 4 Megaman games were apparently pretty good too (though apparently the 5th, the only one I've played, is the best of the lot).
Thing is, for every system I've played, there are only about 20 or so over the course of the system I really think are "must haves". At least, that's the pattern I've seen. It's been broken this generation I think though... There's been an explosion in the past two or three years of awesome games the likes of which I never saw before. I mean, I can only really list about 20 or so games that defined the Super Nintendo experience. About 8 are RPGs (Final Fantasy, Earthbound, Breath of Fire...). Outside of that core experience, most SNES games just aren't worth owning, to me anyway. Again, I'm very picky. I didn't list modestly fun games like Bugs Bunny's Crazy Castle because, well, it's just moderatly fun, something that's fun to play but I really wouldn't pay full price for it... ever...
So yeah, I would say the GB had an awesome assortment of great games. Should that assortment have been bigger given it's lifespan from 1989 to 1999-ish? Yeah, it probably should have, but it was still definitly a system worth having. Certainly, I'd say that anyone who didn't get it missed out on a large number of great games. I really think that games like Link's Awakening, Tetris, Wario Land, and Donkey Kong are ones that people should play.
That's all... I mean, if you don't think those were very good games or anything, that's okay, but I loved them.
Now, if you want to bring up the disappointing lineup of Gameboy Color games, go for it! That had... well honestly only 4 games.. TOTAL... were worth my money. Those being, Super Mario Bros DX (A remake of an awesome game, including a neutered version of another awesome game, hard to call it an exclusive...), the Oracle games (good and original games, but honestly, not as good as the Zelda games before it, still, they are the crown jewels of the GBC), and finally, Zelda LA DX, which isn't really a GBC game so much as a GBC enabled GB game. Honestly, the improvements are nice, but an extra dungeon and a photo hunt, the latter of which can still be done on the original Gameboy, is not exactly a good reason to get a GBC. Oh, there's a 5th game I guess. There's Pokemon Crystal, a part of the "Metal" game series that, for reasons unexplained, can only be played on a GBC (while Gold and Silver were only GBC enabled and could still be played on the original GB, meaning they are part of the GB line of games), but um... that's not worth getting a GBC over. Yes, I would call the GBC a failure, except that it sold so inexplicably WELL, namely due to the system's existing popularity in the orignal GB.
DJ, I respect your opinion, but can you
really say that most of these Gameboy games were anything but pale imitations of their big console brethren? Aside from Zelda and DK (and maybe one or two more), just about every single "great" GB game is only great when you look at the horrible quality of the average GB title. Mario Land is by far the worst 2D Mario sidescroller ever. Mario Land 2, while being much better than 1, was still just a pale imitation of Mario 3/World. Mario Land 3 is probably the best of the bunch, but still... pale imitation. Other pale imitations? Donkey Kong Land... check. The Final Fantasies... oh man CHECK. Even Metroid II was by far the worst Metroid game out there. You can do this with just about every single so-called "great" GB game. Compare that with the Gameboy Advance which
is full of SNES ports, but still, stuff like the Castlevanias, Advance Wars, Fire Emblem FF Tactics, Sonic, etc., are all great original titles. The GBC had a good lineup for how long it lasted.
Quote:PSP is different, it's a system launch... and it's been delayed. I'm sure Sony didn't choose to release it in spring!
As for other games, Jungle Beat isn't a AAA title. Others? As I said, a few a month. Your list there doesn't contradict it. Honestly, don't argue this. It's impossible, as it is a very well known fact that the highest quantity of good games comes out around chistmas. Oh, others come in around the year, but not in large numbers and not consistently. It's a sad fact brought on by how dominant the christmas season is on the year's game sales. And that's why Nintendo, as always, is backloading its schedule so the best stuff comes out around then. For the DS as well as the GC.
Jungle Beat is a terrific game. Maybe not AAA, but it's a GOOD game. And GT4 and DMC3 were just a few titles I chose. Let me continue:
Mercenaries, RE4, Oddworld Stranger, Tekken 5, Project Snowblind, Republic Commando, Minish Cap, and Star Fox Assault. Lots of great games that got pushed to early 2005 because hoiliday 2004 was too full.
Quote:Film to DVD is just cleaning up the picture, though... home console to portable is more than that.
Muh? You have no idea how the process works, do you? Film has infinitely greater "resolution" than dvd can handle, so a LOT of picture information is lost when it gets tranfered to that medium. A LOT. If you didn't notice it on dvd you won't notice it with PS2 to PSP.
Quote:PSP: buttons, controls, screen. DS: touchscreen and microphone. And games that use it. That means more innovative control systems and more innovative games. It'll take some time for the best uses of them to come out, but we already see some with stuff like WarioWare and Yoshi...
Yeah thanks for not paying attention to what I said. Please list conventional and unconventional
GAMES for the PSP and DS.
Quote:Virtual Boy had twelve games, period. GB has a huge library.
Again, thanks for not paying attention. I said "save the VB", which means EXCEPT for the VB.
Quote:Okay, want a list of good to great GB games?
The fact that you included such mediocre titles as Mario Land, Final Fantasy Legend, and Contra kind of ruins your list there, guy. Mario Land was the first mediocre Mario platformer ever, the FF Legends were half-assed versions of the homeconsole games, and the same goes for Castlevania (even though II was pretty good for a GB game, it still paled in compared to the NES games), Contra, and almost any other "great" GB game you can mention. The only good GB games that I can think of that
didn't pale in comparison to the home console versions are Link's Awakening, Donkey Kong, and the Kirby titles. That's pretty much it.
Actually Final Fantasy Legends weren't ports of the console games at all. Actually, they weren't even Final Fantasy titles in all honesty. Square thought they would sell better in America with Final Fantasy slapped on the title. They were actually a whole different series, a series which would later have such titles as Frontier Saga and such.
Final Fantasy Adventure was a pretty fun game for the time. Sure the later games in the series were better, but at the time it was fun whether you were comparing it to existing portable games or console games.
Mario Land 3 wasn't actually a Mario game. It was Wario Land 1, the very first Wario game. I actually loved it as it introduced all the classic Wario gameplay. I wouldn't call it a pale imitation, it was something new and I for one enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed Mario World.
I really did like Donkey Kong Land. Donkey Kong Country was the first and is still my favorite of the series, but Donkey Kong Land was as good as any of the sequels they made in the series, to me anyway.
Metroid 2 is a game that I think was misjudged as much as Zelda 2 was... It was different but honestly, as I've said before, I really loved that game. I wouldn't call it the worst of the Metroid games. Metroid Fusion maybe, but even that one's pretty good and if that's the worst, then that says something for how good the series is. Megaman 5 is certainly not a pale imitation, except in the sense that every Megaman game recycles the old gameplay. It's one of my favorite Megaman games ever.
So in answer to your question, yes I can honestly say that most of the games I listed were not pale imitations of their console counterparts. The only thing I can add is that there is a reason that system sold so well, and a lot of the games we listed can be found in the libraries of pretty much everyone who owned that system. Most people would agree the Gameboy was a great system to own. I know, majority doesn't mean correct, but I mean, it's not like I'm trying to defend the N-Gage here, I really DO think that the Gameboy was popular because of the games available for it, the best reason for something to sell well. Oh yes, Tetris was actually better than the console version, because it had multiplayer. (For some reason Dance of the Suger Plum Fairies was taken off the song list though... that's still my favorite Tetris song, but oh well it still had good russian classical music, which needs to RETURN to the Tetris series!)
Quote:Actually Final Fantasy Legends weren't ports of the console games at all. Actually, they weren't even Final Fantasy titles in all honesty. Square thought they would sell better in America with Final Fantasy slapped on the title. They were actually a whole different series, a series which would later have such titles as Frontier Saga and such.
I never said they were ports, just that they sucked in comparison to the home console FFs.
Quote:Final Fantasy Adventure was a pretty fun game for the time. Sure the later games in the series were better, but at the time it was fun whether you were comparing it to existing portable games or console games.
Adventure was definitely better than the Legend games, I'll give you that.
Quote:Mario Land 3 wasn't actually a Mario game. It was Wario Land 1, the very first Wario game. I actually loved it as it introduced all the classic Wario gameplay. I wouldn't call it a pale imitation, it was something new and I for one enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed Mario World.
It's as much a Mario game as Yoshi's Island is. It still counts. And you
really liked it as much as Mario World?
Well okay...
Quote:I really did like Donkey Kong Land. Donkey Kong Country was the first and is still my favorite of the series, but Donkey Kong Land was as good as any of the sequels they made in the series, to me anyway.
Well that's your opinion... no matter how strongly I disagree with it...
Quote:Metroid 2 is a game that I think was misjudged as much as Zelda 2 was... It was different but honestly, as I've said before, I really loved that game. I wouldn't call it the worst of the Metroid games. Metroid Fusion maybe, but even that one's pretty good and if that's the worst, then that says something for how good the series is.
I never said it was bad, just the worst in the series. Fusion at least did something very different. Metroid 2 was Metroid 1 without a map.
Quote:Megaman 5 is certainly not a pale imitation, except in the sense that every Megaman game recycles the old gameplay. It's one of my favorite Megaman games ever.
I don't believe I included Mega Man 5 in my list.
Quote:So in answer to your question, yes I can honestly say that most of the games I listed were not pale imitations of their console counterparts. The only thing I can add is that there is a reason that system sold so well, and a lot of the games we listed can be found in the libraries of pretty much everyone who owned that system. Most people would agree the Gameboy was a great system to own. I know, majority doesn't mean correct, but I mean, it's not like I'm trying to defend the N-Gage here, I really DO think that the Gameboy was popular because of the games available for it, the best reason for something to sell well. Oh yes, Tetris was actually better than the console version, because it had multiplayer. (For some reason Dance of the Suger Plum Fairies was taken off the song list though... that's still my favorite Tetris song, but oh well it still had good russian classical music, which needs to RETURN to the Tetris series!)
I never said that it was a bad system, just that compared to every other Nintendo system ('cept the VB, of course) it had a very poor selection of games, considering how long the system's lifespan was. And that was largely because the system had very little real competition. Nintendo didn't have to make stellar titles for it. The games were
good enough by portable standards and that's all that mattered. I honestly think that people give the Gameboy far too much credit and rate their games so highly simply because they were
portable. The GBA, on the other hand, actually stood up to the big consoles. Some of the best games released in 2003 were GBA games. That says a lot.
But you know, if you
really love those Gameboy games so much then I won't debate that. I'll just have to strongly disagree with you. Really,
really strongly disagree with you. ;)
I'm just surprised you rate the GBC higher than the GB. It lasted for like 2 years but even so it only had 4 TOTAL games worth getting for it. Everything else was like Dexter's Lab or Tarzan, some cheap platformer made in about a week. Where's the criticism of that thing?
Oh and, Metroid 1 didn't have a map either. That was first added in Metroid 3. They put one in for Zero Mission though, which was great.
But yeah, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Quote:I'm just surprised you rate the GBC higher than the GB. It lasted for like 2 years but even so it only had 4 TOTAL games worth getting for it. Everything else was like Dexter's Lab or Tarzan, some cheap platformer made in about a week. Where's the criticism of that thing?
For its lifespan it had some good games. Like you said, it lasted for like two years. But in those two years we got plenty of good games, far more than just four. Take a look at this list:
http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings...atings.asp
Quote:Oh and, Metroid 1 didn't have a map either. That was first added in Metroid 3. They put one in for Zero Mission though, which was great.
Ah yes, you are correct. Let me rephrase that then: Metroid II was Metroid I with
the most confusing game world ever, because everything looked the same. I do like Metroid II quite a lot, but not as much as any of the other ones.
You've got a point there, Metroid 2 was incredibly confusing. I remember running around for hours [well, maybe it wasn't that long] in the same area because I couldn't figure out how to get to anywhere else.
Huh, really? Honestly I found the game pretty easy to know where I was in. The game had a pretty linear setup compaired to Metroid 1.
Metroid 1, now THERE'S a game that I got completely lost in. For me, THAT was the game where every single room looked exactly like the one before it, namely because they recycled room archetypes so often in it. Eventually, I mapped it out, but to me that was the Metroid game to get lost in. Keep in mind I played that game AFTER I played 2 and 3.
Wow, there were a bunch of posts made while I was writing that long one...
Quote:Well okay if that's not enough for you then you could check out the games I didn't list. I only listed the ones I've actually played because I thought that would be enough to remind you of why that system was so succesful. I mean, it didn't sell because of popularity alone right? If that's all there was to it, the GG would have totally beaten it due to how popular that was... at first...
I don't think the GG was ever as popular as the GB. Its battery life really killed it... that and the much better game selection on the Game Boy.
Quote:Thing is, for every system I've played, there are only about 20 or so over the course of the system I really think are "must haves". At least, that's the pattern I've seen. It's been broken this generation I think though... There's been an explosion in the past two or three years of awesome games the likes of which I never saw before. I mean, I can only really list about 20 or so games that defined the Super Nintendo experience. About 8 are RPGs (Final Fantasy, Earthbound, Breath of Fire...). Outside of that core experience, most SNES games just aren't worth owning, to me anyway. Again, I'm very picky. I didn't list modestly fun games like Bugs Bunny's Crazy Castle because, well, it's just moderatly fun, something that's fun to play but I really wouldn't pay full price for it... ever...
SNES does have more great games than GB, though. So does the NES. That's because it was second fiddle for its whole life... it was never the focus. And it spent three or four years in no so great shape... before Pokemon saved it, it was definitely struggling for a while except for a few great games. But still... GB managed a solid lineup of titles more than large enough for anyone to have a great, and reasonably large, collection.
Quote:So yeah, I would say the GB had an awesome assortment of great games. Should that assortment have been bigger given it's lifespan from 1989 to 1999-ish? Yeah, it probably should have, but it was still definitly a system worth having. Certainly, I'd say that anyone who didn't get it missed out on a large number of great games. I really think that games like Link's Awakening, Tetris, Wario Land, and Donkey Kong are ones that people should play.
GBC came out in time for christmas of 1998, actually. But as I said, yes, it should have had more games but spent several years with only a few bright lights popping up every so often. And the good games are good enough so that few people, I'm sure, regretted getting one.
Quote:Now, if you want to bring up the disappointing lineup of Gameboy Color games, go for it! That had... well honestly only 4 games.. TOTAL... were worth my money. Those being, Super Mario Bros DX (A remake of an awesome game, including a neutered version of another awesome game, hard to call it an exclusive...), the Oracle games (good and original games, but honestly, not as good as the Zelda games before it, still, they are the crown jewels of the GBC), and finally, Zelda LA DX, which isn't really a GBC game so much as a GBC enabled GB game. Honestly, the improvements are nice, but an extra dungeon and a photo hunt, the latter of which can still be done on the original Gameboy, is not exactly a good reason to get a GBC. Oh, there's a 5th game I guess. There's Pokemon Crystal, a part of the "Metal" game series that, for reasons unexplained, can only be played on a GBC (while Gold and Silver were only GBC enabled and could still be played on the original GB, meaning they are part of the GB line of games), but um... that's not worth getting a GBC over. Yes, I would call the GBC a failure, except that it sold so inexplicably WELL, namely due to the system's existing popularity in the orignal GB.
GBC, in 2 1/2 years, came close to having as many great games as GB, really... and maybe has as many worth buying overall. It actually had good support for its lifespan, compared to the GB which spent so long with so little...
That said, I only bought 14 GBC games, and some of those are only decent, compared with 25 GB games. But there are a lot of good GBC games I didn't get... even so though GB probably has more But it lasted so much longer that I'd sure hope so!
Quote:I gotta say, ABF (and to a lesser extent GR..) I usually really enjoy your arguements with OB1, and think usually you put up a better fight than OB1 likes to make out.. but in this case, I think you're way off the mark here.
You're putting a lot of focus on Nintendo being only one developer/publisher, and Sony having the advantage purely because of third parties, but looking at those two lists.. it seems to me that Sony's in-house offering is also far superior to what Nintendo itself already has out.
It's a LOT easier to develop for PSP than it is for DS. You just make something like you've made before. DS is new, so it's tougher... so it's expected that even the first-party titles show signs of being not as good as they could be.
Quote:And I never thought I'd see the day that a machine would be bashed for having too much power. PSP offering only standard console fair? Only ports of PS2 games?? What exactly is the biggest game on DS right now? An N64 port? Why do I even need a PSP, when I can go out and play Lumines and Metal Gear Acid on my PS2 today! Great!!
DS has potential to offer unique experiences. Well, until this idea comes into fruition (I mean, ABF himself said that Nintendo can only do so much itself..) it's really a moot point. The PSP's more powerful hardware can also offer so much more than what the DS can offer. But wait, that's a bad thing.
In some ways, yes... I don't want the final death of 2d, or handheld games which are just straight console ports! As for ports, both consoles have them, true. And yes, it's quite possible on DS too. But I am sure that Nintendo will be more diligent about getting people to make new games than Sony will be... 'just more power' is alright, but unique sfeatures are great too, and for the handheld market I like Nintendo's approach better than Sony's. For top-notch 3d games there's always the PC and major consoles. The handheld market is (and should be) somewhat different...
The PSP of course has a different philosophy, and is aiming at a somewhat different market.
Quote:I've only skimmed the whole thing... is that really what they've been doing, bashing the system for having too much power? Yeah, that is silly... In this case, I think that ABF has gotten so used to arguing with OB1 that he actually is doing, for the very first time, the things that OB1 has always accused him of. It's like some weird psychology stuff only lazy could explain to us.
I'm defending 2d games, that's what I'm doing. :) Oh, and the '3d doesn't work as well on handhelds' thing isn't just my invention, it's something I've heard before. It definitely can be made to work, though. For some game types 3d is obviously better on handhelds too... but with the small screens, some of the benefits of 3d are lessened and some of the problems made greater...
Quote:The PSP has a lot of potential right now. I've said from the very beginning that I had my doubts namely because I didn't think that a very expensive handheld could succeed. When the DS was later announced, pretty quickly really, I said that if Nintendo's DS did well then I could easily see the PSP at least competing with them, though I didn't think they would dominate Nintendo in the least. Still, my own thoughts were that people wouldn't want to buy something that expensive. It wasn'treally a Nintendo vs Sony thing in my mind, but rather a cheap but weak vs expensive but powerful thing. When the DS actually sold by huge amounts, then I realized that peopel were willing to pay more for a more powerful system, and so I realized the PSP could do well, assuming it wasn't TOO expensive. I haven't read much about it, so I don't know the price, but so long as it isn't too much more than the price of a PS2, and the battery life is decent, then it'll do pretty well. Oh yes, I forgot that I said some things about the battery life, namely that I didn't think that it would be very long at all. Turned out it isn't very long, and predictably, Nintendo is attacking it. No matter, at the time I also thought that poor battery life might impact sales of the system if people today care about it as much as people cared about battery life with the Game Gear. OB1 pointed out that hey, this has rechargeble batteries. True enough, though my main fear was in them dying between opportunities to charge them back up. It's still something I don't like about it, but oh well, sales tell me that Japan, a country that cares more about battery life than us, doesn't care enough that they won't buy it.
Anyway, summery, the DS is doing VERY well, and the PSP, while not doing as well as the DS, is holding it's own very well indeed, as I thought might happen if people actually wanted to dish out that money. All in all, hopefully the PSP will sell well enough that Nintendo has some real competition that forces them to do more than release what are literally ports of old NES games, just as an example.
The PSP should do well within the market it creates. I'm just not sure how much that cooresponds with the majority of the current handheld gaming market... oh, it'll definitely hurt Nintendo. And in time it'll grow its market share. But is the PSP the machine that will defeat Nintendo in the handheld arena? Given its drawbacks (price, battery life, game price, fragility, etc), I'm not so sure.
Of course, I also don't expect the DS to be the next Game Boy-level success in the handheld market. It'll do well, but won't become utterly dominant like GB has been.
Quote:DJ, I respect your opinion, but can you really say that most of these Gameboy games were anything but pale imitations of their big console brethren? Aside from Zelda and DK (and maybe one or two more), just about every single "great" GB game is only great when you look at the horrible quality of the average GB title. Mario Land is by far the worst 2D Mario sidescroller ever. Mario Land 2, while being much better than 1, was still just a pale imitation of Mario 3/World. Mario Land 3 is probably the best of the bunch, but still... pale imitation. Other pale imitations? Donkey Kong Land... check. The Final Fantasies... oh man CHECK. Even Metroid II was by far the worst Metroid game out there. You can do this with just about every single so-called "great" GB game. Compare that with the Gameboy Advance which is full of SNES ports, but still, stuff like the Castlevanias, Advance Wars, Fire Emblem FF Tactics, Sonic, etc., are all great original titles. The GBC had a good lineup for how long it lasted.
I absolutely disagree with this. You keep returning to this as your main point against the GB: Its games are awful when compared to Nintendo's REAL good games. Etc. You say it again in the same post, actually...
Quote:The fact that you included such mediocre titles as Mario Land, Final Fantasy Legend, and Contra kind of ruins your list there, guy. Mario Land was the first mediocre Mario platformer ever, the FF Legends were half-assed versions of the homeconsole games, and the same goes for Castlevania (even though II was pretty good for a GB game, it still paled in compared to the NES games), Contra, and almost any other "great" GB game you can mention. The only good GB games that I can think of that didn't pale in comparison to the home console versions are Link's Awakening, Donkey Kong, and the Kirby titles. That's pretty much it.
I just don't agree. Your premise is that because the games aren't quite as great as the major-console titles, they stink and the GB is a comparitively bad system. I definitely don't think that that is true at all. So they aren't quite as awesome. So? They're still awesome! And there are a lot more games than that that are just as good as major-console titles: Mega Man I, IV, and V, Mole Mania, Final Fantasy Adventure, the Micro Machines games, Tetris, Bionic Commando, Gradius, etc... it's just not as bad as you say and the quality difference, while there, is a small gap, not a huge gulf.
I address Mario Land later.
Quote:en. For the DS as well as the GC.
Jungle Beat is a terrific game. Maybe not AAA, but it's a GOOD game. And GT4 and DMC3 were just a few titles I chose. Let me continue:
Mercenaries, RE4, Oddworld Stranger, Tekken 5, Project Snowblind, Republic Commando, Minish Cap, and Star Fox Assault. Lots of great games that got pushed to early 2005 because hoiliday 2004 was too full.
Yeah, the holiday season definitely includes early January because of all the delayed good games that come out then. But by February or March, it's died down to what I said. Oh, and some of those are perfect 'release at an off time' games -- like Star Fox Assualt for instance. That just wouldn't hold up as well if it was released at a time with lots of stuff coming out.
Quote:Again, thanks for not paying attention. I said "save the VB", which means EXCEPT for the VB.
My point was that putting it anywhere near the level of the VB is incredibly insulting to a great console.
Quote:Yeah thanks for not paying attention to what I said. Please list conventional and unconventional GAMES for the PSP and DS.
We need to wait for the DS to show its true potential first...
Quote:Muh? You have no idea how the process works, do you? Film has infinitely greater "resolution" than dvd can handle, so a LOT of picture information is lost when it gets tranfered to that medium. A LOT. If you didn't notice it on dvd you won't notice it with PS2 to PSP.
The amount of work required well might be similar, but you're not actually changing the movie...
Quote:Adventure was definitely better than the Legend games, I'll give you that.
I actually had more fun with FF Adventure than Sword of Mana, despite how good the latter game is...
Quote:It's as much a Mario game as Yoshi's Island is. It still counts. And you really liked it as much as Mario World?
Well okay...
As for Mario Land: Fun game. It really is. So it's not as great as SMB... it's still a really good game that is a lot of fun to play! It's got variety too, with the side-scrolling levels... a bit short, but other than that a very good game.
As for Mario World (as opposed to SMB)... it's close to as good as Mario World (sorry, but the first Mario Bros. is better than SMB.)... not quite as good, especially because of the short length, but... it's a Mario game! Once you get past the bad graphics, the game is pretty good.
Quote:I never said they were ports, just that they sucked in comparison to the home console FFs.
But they aren't actually FF games, so you shouldn't expect them to be the same...
Quote:I really did like Donkey Kong Land. Donkey Kong Country was the first and is still my favorite of the series, but Donkey Kong Land was as good as any of the sequels they made in the series, to me anyway.
(then OB1 says he dislikes DKL)
I also liked it. Very good game. Sure, it doesn't have the minigames of the SNES title and has fewer levels. Oh well. It's tough, it's a lot of fun, and the levels are well designed, so who cares? I sure didn't! It's a worthy title in the series every bit as good as the other three. Why don't you agree, OB1? I don't see how it's so different from the other titles at all, other than the lack of color!
Or is it the sprite-blurring you dislike so much (how the characters blend into the backgrounds)? I mostly played it on my GBC, I'm pretty sure, so I didn't have that problem. :)
Quote:I don't believe I included Mega Man 5 in my list.
But nor did you put it on your good list. Of course, you forgot a whole lot of fantastic GB games on your good list, and that's just one of them...
Quote:I never said that it was a bad system, just that compared to every other Nintendo system ('cept the VB, of course) it had a very poor selection of games, considering how long the system's lifespan was. And that was largely because the system had very little real competition. Nintendo didn't have to make stellar titles for it. The games were good enough by portable standards and that's all that mattered. I honestly think that people give the Gameboy far too much credit and rate their games so highly simply because they were portable. The GBA, on the other hand, actually stood up to the big consoles. Some of the best games released in 2003 were GBA games. That says a lot.
But you know, if you really love those Gameboy games so much then I won't debate that. I'll just have to strongly disagree with you. Really, really strongly disagree with you.
I have no idea why at some point you decided to hate the Game Boy, but it's just wrong. "I didn't say it's a bad system, I just said that it has a poor selection of games and I really, really strongly disagree with you if you want to say that you think it's a good system!" is ... well, let's just say that you really, really strongly contradict your initial statement that you don't think it's a bad system. :)
Nintendo DID make great games for it! It's the third parties that produced the bad stuff. Nintendo's games are great. So they're shorter. Portable games are meant to be shorter, so you can't consider that a huge bad thing. Complexity? Yes, GB games often lack there. That is true. But once you accept the kinds of games it does best, you see how good the console is... What you get is better than most major-console stuff and almost as good as the best. Indesputably.
Mole Mania, for instance, isn't just good by handheld standards. It's good by any standards and is a worthy follow-up to the gameplay you find in the Adventures of LoLo.
After finding out that was a list system OB1 pointed to, I checked it out. Honestly, it had a variety of games, but I only count a few as worth getting. The Pokemon Metal series, save Crystal, is two games that, as far as I'm concerned, are GB games with a GBC mode. As for the rest... Well they didn't really catch my interest... at all... Oh, except Metal Gear Solid. That's one I've heard really good things about. Again, I'm pretty picky, so I in fact do not have 15 GBC games, because for the most part I didn't see them as worth it. Perhaps I'm as overly critical of the GBC as OB1 is of the GB though...
Quote:SNES does have more great games than GB, though. So does the NES. That's because it was second fiddle for its whole life... it was never the focus. And it spent three or four years in no so great shape... before Pokemon saved it, it was definitely struggling for a while except for a few great games. But still... GB managed a solid lineup of titles more than large enough for anyone to have a great, and reasonably large, collection.
Wow, I'm glad you've finally admitted that. That's exactly my point: the GB did not have as good a selection of games as Nintendo's home consoles. Now as for how good you thought the games were, well, you can rate them however well you want.
Quote:GBC came out in time for christmas of 1998, actually. But as I said, yes, it should have had more games but spent several years with only a few bright lights popping up every so often. And the good games are good enough so that few people, I'm sure, regretted getting one.
Look at the list I posted. The GBC had plenty of good games. Look at the dozens of games that scored an average of 9's and 8's.
Quote:It's a LOT easier to develop for PSP than it is for DS. You just make something like you've made before. DS is new, so it's tougher... so it's expected that even the first-party titles show signs of being not as good as they could be.
The potential that the DS creates makes coming up with new ideas more difficult, yes. But actually developing games for the DS is several times easier and less expensive than it is for the PSP. And most developers would love to try something new and different.
Quote:I'm defending 2d games, that's what I'm doing. Oh, and the '3d doesn't work as well on handhelds' thing isn't just my invention, it's something I've heard before. It definitely can be made to work, though. For some game types 3d is obviously better on handhelds too... but with the small screens, some of the benefits of 3d are lessened and some of the problems made greater...
You're defending 2d gaming from
who?? I love 2D games, I want more 2D games to be made. But just because I know for a fact that 3D games look
terrific on a PSP doesn't mean that I'm "attacking" 2D gaming. The way you twist around whatever I say to fit your warped agenda is amazing.
Quote:I absolutely disagree with this. You keep returning to this as your main point against the GB: Its games are awful when compared to Nintendo's REAL good games. Etc. You say it again in the same post, actually...
Most of them, yes. And you even admitted that the GB didn't have as good a lineup as the NES and SNES!
Quote:I just don't agree. Your premise is that because the games aren't quite as great as the major-console titles, they stink and the GB is a comparitively bad system. I definitely don't think that that is true at all. So they aren't quite as awesome. So? They're still awesome! And there are a lot more games than that that are just as good as major-console titles: Mega Man I, IV, and V, Mole Mania, Final Fantasy Adventure, the Micro Machines games, Tetris, Bionic Commando, Gradius, etc... it's just not as bad as you say and the quality difference, while there, is a small gap, not a huge gulf.
Well fine, you don't think those games stink as
much as I do. Wee.
Quote:Yeah, the holiday season definitely includes early January because of all the delayed good games that come out then. But by February or March, it's died down to what I said. Oh, and some of those are perfect 'release at an off time' games -- like Star Fox Assualt for instance. That just wouldn't hold up as well if it was released at a time with lots of stuff coming out.
This entire argument right here is completely broken. Just admit it and give up already. Most of the games I listed came out in February and March, and the biggest ones JUST came out, like DMC3 and GT4, both HUGE titles. So you are VERY wrong.
Quote:My point was that putting it anywhere near the level of the VB is incredibly insulting to a great console.
What the fuck is the matter with you?? Saying "EXCEPT FOR THE VB" means that the VIRTUA BOY IS NOT INCLUDED, you WEIRD little man you! That's like someone saying "Well FDR wasn't evil like Hitler" and you replying with "How DARE you compare FDR to Hitler??!!"
You are seriously messed up in the head, you know that? I hope you know that.
Quote:We need to wait for the DS to show its true potential first...
Ah, yes. So basically what you're saying is that your point is complete bullshit and you have nothing to back it up except for "well in the FUTURE that might change!". Wonderful.
Quote:The amount of work required well might be similar, but you're not actually changing the movie...
In the sense that you are loosing a great percentage of the picture, yes, it IS changing the movie.
Quote:As for Mario Land: Fun game. It really is. So it's not as great as SMB... it's still a really good game that is a lot of fun to play! It's got variety too, with the side-scrolling levels ... a bit short, but other than that a very good game.
Yeah... those side scrolling levels were a great departure from the side scrolling levels.
...
Oh are you trying to say the
SHOOTER levels? Yeah maybe that would have made more sense.
Quote:As for Mario World (as opposed to SMB)... it's close to as good as Mario World (sorry, but the first Mario Bros. is better than SMB.)... not quite as good, especially because of the short length, but... it's a Mario game! Once you get past the bad graphics, the game is pretty good.
...
Was that post supposed to make sense?
Quote:But they aren't actually FF games, so you shouldn't expect them to be the same...
They have the name, they are RPGs. They are not as good as the console games. End of discussion.
Quote:(then OB1 says he dislikes DKL)
Yeah that's exactly what I said.
Quote:I also liked it. Very good game. Sure, it doesn't have the minigames of the SNES title and has fewer levels. Oh well. It's tough, it's a lot of fun, and the levels are well designed, so who cares? I sure didn't! It's a worthy title in the series every bit as good as the other three. Why don't you agree, OB1? I don't see how it's so different from the other titles at all, other than the lack of color!
Or is it the sprite-blurring you dislike so much (how the characters blend into the backgrounds)? I mostly played it on my GBC, I'm pretty sure, so I didn't have that problem.
What part of "DKL isn't as good as DKC" means "OMG DKL SUCKS!!"
L-E-A-R-N T-O R-E-A-D.
Quote:But nor did you put it on your good list. Of course, you forgot a whole lot of fantastic GB games on your good list, and that's just one of them...
I got sick of Mega Man by number four.
Quote:I have no idea why at some point you decided to hate the Game Boy, but it's just wrong. "I didn't say it's a bad system, I just said that it has a poor selection of games and I really, really strongly disagree with you if you want to say that you think it's a good system!" is ... well, let's just say that you really, really strongly contradict your initial statement that you don't think it's a bad system.
Nintendo DID make great games for it! It's the third parties that produced the bad stuff. Nintendo's games are great. So they're shorter. Portable games are meant to be shorter, so you can't consider that a huge bad thing. Complexity? Yes, GB games often lack there. That is true. But once you accept the kinds of games it does best, you see how good the console is... What you get is better than most major-console stuff and almost as good as the best. Indesputably.
Mole Mania, for instance, isn't just good by handheld standards. It's good by any standards and is a worthy follow-up to the gameplay you find in the Adventures of LoLo.
The system had a lineup of games that was crap compared to any of Nintendo's home console. That doesn't mean that the games were shit
on their own, but I never gave handhelds a handicap like you guys obviously did. Why the hell should I play Mario Land when I can play much better Mario games on my NES and SNES? Why, pray tell? Because I can play them wherever I want to? Well sure, that's correct. But that doesn't make them pale in comparison any less.
Dark Jaguar Wrote:After finding out that was a list system OB1 pointed to, I checked it out. Honestly, it had a variety of games, but I only count a few as worth getting. The Pokemon Metal series, save Crystal, is two games that, as far as I'm concerned, are GB games with a GBC mode. As for the rest... Well they didn't really catch my interest... at all... Oh, except Metal Gear Solid. That's one I've heard really good things about. Again, I'm pretty picky, so I in fact do not have 15 GBC games, because for the most part I didn't see them as worth it. Perhaps I'm as overly critical of the GBC as OB1 is of the GB though...
Mario Tennis, Mario Golf, MGS, SMB Deluxe, the two Zelda Oracle games, Dragon Warriors 1-3, and most of the others on the top of that list were worth getting.
For GBC, you should make a distinction between the dual-mode titles where the GBC has more features than the GB, the dual-mode titles where it's identical other than color, and the GBC-only games. It's messy, I know, but it's the best way... though I'm not sure, should I be able to list dual-mode titles in the GB list? Like, if I could, I'd list Survival Kids, anyway.
As I said, I have 14 GBC games. 10 are GBC-only and four are Dual-mode. The four dual-mode titles are R-Type DX, Survival Kids, Pocket Bomberman, and Wario Land II (the dualmode version of course). Of those, three are identical on both consoles (other than the color), but R-Type DX is different: In GB you get access to straight ports of R-Type and R-Type II from the GB, but on GBC you get those two (in B&W), colorized and improved versions of both titles, and a R-Type DX, fifth game that ties the two together into one long game. You also can unlock a bonus minigame thing after you beat DX mode.
Good GBC games... hmm, of what I own I'd list... Zelda: Oracle of Ages, Zelda: Oracle of Seasons, Super Mario Bros. Deluxe, Bionic Commando: Elite Forces, Kirby Tilt n Tumble, Survival Kids, Warlocked, Micro Machines V3, Heroes of Might & Magic (and a sequel)... there are a bunch of others, too (looking at the GameRankings list and remembering some of those games) -- Crystalis, Dragon Warrior 1 & 2, Metal Gear Solid, Wario Land 3, Dragon Warrior III, Mega Man Xtreme, Mega Man Xtreme 2, Shantae, Perfect Dark, etc.
Now, I don't think I'd say that GBC was as good as original GB and it certainly doesn't match up to the GBA, but it's not a bad console... I didn't play it as much as GB, true, and I didn't get as many games for it as I did for GB, but it was still a worthwhile console to own. Even if one of my favorite features with the thing was how it colorized and cleared up (removing motion blur!) original GB games. :)
Considering how many good games came out during the GBC's very short lifespan and how many came out during the entire DECADE of the GB's lifespan, it's pretty damn impressive.
Hmm..
Remember that TimeSplitters 3 s about to come out, OB1. There's another big one for this time of the year.
I saw it... Honestly I didn't want Mario Tennis or Mario Golf. I never was a fan until the series got WACKY with crazy traps and stuff. WAAACKKKYYYYY! It's a ZAANY place where anything can Haaaapppeeeen! Dragon Warrior 1-3 eh? Didn't they bring those to Super Nintendo as well? Was a lot added to them like with SMBDX? Not sure I'd count those as must have exclusives... Yeah, I know they have like... high numbers next to them... Oh well.... I don't even know the people on that site. Never even heard of it before you posted that. Seems it's an average of like, gaming news site ratings and ratings of people who go to that site and give them... What does that tell me? It doesn't say anything about the majority of gamers who have never even heard of that place. No matter...
Anyway, checking out that list, nothing catches my eye except MGS. Sorry, I know, Tennis and Golf were apparently pretty good, but um, not for me. I only got interested when the Mario trademark of zany was added. I honestly don't like normal golf unless there are weird warps and floating acid puddles and stuff to make it interesting, and like a hopping hamburger over the hole.
So um, yeah, as for my tastes, I'd say the GBC really was just a placeholder system that didn't have much going for it. I'll leave it at that.
"Exclusive"? So all of the SNES ports don't add up to the GBA's lineup because they're not exclusives? That makes no sense at all. None. None whatsoever. Seriously.
Hudson: That's right! I forgot about Time Splitters.
DJ, do you have Bionic Commando for GB? Or GBC (Elite Forces is my easily in my top 5 GBC games. Its only competition is Zelda: OoA and SMBDX.)? Both of those are really great games... Mega Man? Warlocked (not a fantastic game, but it's the one RTS on the GB and I had fun, even if it is simple.)? Etc.
As for MGS, I heard it was good but never got it. Mario Tennis and Mario Golf? I don't care. :)
"For your tastes"? But the GBC has games in every genre... definitely more real RPGs than were on the original GB, for instance, and it actually had a couple of strategy games, in addition to the usual platformers and puzzlers... yes, the GB is better, but the GBC is by no means bad.
Well what I mean OB1 is games that are reasons to buy the system, the must have exclusives. Yeah, they add to the library, but if they aren't exclusive, then they aren't on my list of the system's defining games. Because, like, I may already have them, like Donkey Kong Country. I mean, sure Metal Gear Solid 2 adds to the library of XBox games, and those who only own one are certainly going to appreciate that, but if you don't have an XBox, then that game isn't a reason to get one because it's also on the PS2. That's what I was saying. Not that it doesn't add to the lineup, just that it doesn't add to it's list of exclusives, which is how I decide if I want to get a system. I still wouldn't have a GBA if it really didn't get anything but Super Nintendo ports. I couldn't justify spending so much money on games I already owned when I could spend it on games I didn't own. However, having already GOT a GBA, yes getting an occasional Super Nintendo port is something I do. Usually, when I don't own the original or if the game comes with another game I don't have, or if it's completely and totally redone to the point of not even being the same game any more.
My bad, I sorta thought that was part of the argument, the idea of what games the system EXCLUSIVELY has more than just what games the system ALSO has. Okay then, never mind. In that case, yes, DKC is a good part of the lineup.
Sorry ABF, I never played a Bionic Commando game, ever. Mega Man? There was a Megaman game for the GBC? Wait a sec, oh yeah, those special X games. Warlocked.... hmm... nope never heard of that one. I did play Kirby Tilt and Tumble, and at the time I was really basically just mad at Nintendo's trend to sheer gimics. Didn't enjoy it at all because I was set out to hate it from the start probably.
As I said, I tend to be pretty picky about the games I get. I only saw like a few games worth even getting for that system, and I really had no intention of getting games I already owned just because they were portable. I've never found the "it's a portable version of that old game you loved" a compelling selling point for a game. Sure, being portable is nice and all, but not $30 nice.
All in all, there are some games I apparently missed out on for the GBC I guess (though Turok is NOT one of them, that was the first I got and one of the few games I do NOT regret immediatly getting rid of, in that case taking it back to the store misteriously shrinkwrapped... in a sandwitch bag over a stove... to exchange for a good game, the only one I even wanted being... LA DX. I looked around the stores at the time, and what I saw were games that just didn't interest me at all, and seemed cheesy. Playing Tetris DX was a bit of a letdown. Sure, it added a lot, but nothing... "real" I guess but it was the start of removing classical music from the Tetris series, a move I really hate that they ever did. Also, after playing Perfect Dark for it, I really just sorta gave up on it. That game was a pretty big let down to me.
But, perhaps I just consigned it to being a let down too soon. I'll check out the GBC library at some used game stores some time and see if there's something I want. Sure, I'll give it another shot.
I think they count as exclusives simply because you can play them on the go. After all, why re-buy Mario World, etc. for the GBA if you already have them for the SNES? Because you want to be able to play them on the go. Or in the bathroom. :D
Quote:Well what I mean OB1 is games that are reasons to buy the system, the must have exclusives. Yeah, they add to the library, but if they aren't exclusive, then they aren't on my list of the system's defining games. Because, like, I may already have them, like Donkey Kong Country. I mean, sure Metal Gear Solid 2 adds to the library of XBox games, and those who only own one are certainly going to appreciate that, but if you don't have an XBox, then that game isn't a reason to get one because it's also on the PS2. That's what I was saying. Not that it doesn't add to the lineup, just that it doesn't add to it's list of exclusives, which is how I decide if I want to get a system. I still wouldn't have a GBA if it really didn't get anything but Super Nintendo ports. I couldn't justify spending so much money on games I already owned when I could spend it on games I didn't own. However, having already GOT a GBA, yes getting an occasional Super Nintendo port is something I do. Usually, when I don't own the original or if the game comes with another game I don't have, or if it's completely and totally redone to the point of not even being the same game any more.
The GBC did have some ports, especially from the NES, that is true... but there are a lot of GBC games that aren't ports. Metal Gear Solid isn't a port. The Zelda games aren't ports. Bionic Commando isn't. Stuff like DKC, Dragon Warrior, Crystalis, etc. are ports, true, but hey... GBA also has a lot of ports, except from SNES, and it's a great console...
Quote:My bad, I sorta thought that was part of the argument, the idea of what games the system EXCLUSIVELY has more than just what games the system ALSO has. Okay then, never mind. In that case, yes, DKC is a good part of the lineup.
Exclusives count for more than original titles, but ports count too.
Quote:Sorry ABF, I never played a Bionic Commando game, ever. Mega Man? There was a Megaman game for the GBC? Wait a sec, oh yeah, those special X games. Warlocked.... hmm... nope never heard of that one. I did play Kirby Tilt and Tumble, and at the time I was really basically just mad at Nintendo's trend to sheer gimics. Didn't enjoy it at all because I was set out to hate it from the start probably.
If you ever see either Bionic Commando for NES, Bionic Commando for GB (it's unfortunate that they used the same name for the GB game, as it IS a new game), or Bionic Commando: Elite Forces for GBC, GET THEM! Awesome games. Somewhat misunderstood, but awesome... (What I mean by that is things like IGN's review of BC: EF -- they complained that there is no jump button! But that's the POINT: There isn't a jump button and a jump button would have no place in Bionic Commando. It's all about the bionic arm and letting you jump would mess that up. If you hate the bionic arm, of course, you won't like the series, but I like that control a lot, so...)
Anyway... the GBC Mega Man titles are a lot like the first four GB Mega Man games: Old bosses rehashed into a new package with new boss levels and stuff. Except with X instead of normal Mega Man. I always wanted one of those two games, but never got one... :(
Warlocked: Extremely simplistic, as I said, but hey... it's the only one like it and it's competent, so I won't complain too much...
Tilt n Tumble: Why would you start out wanting to hate it? I don't get that... gimmick? Slightly, but not really. It's just a different method of controls and it makes the game noticably different from any other console games I know of (I said 'console' because there have been PC tilt controllers and games designed to work with them... but mostly for racing games, not platformers like this...). I liked the game a lot. The only problem with the game is that it's too short and easy, but it's fun enough along the way that I didn't mind TOO much about that. But really, if it's a gimmick game this is the best kind of 'gimmick'.
Quote:As I said, I tend to be pretty picky about the games I get. I only saw like a few games worth even getting for that system, and I really had no intention of getting games I already owned just because they were portable. I've never found the "it's a portable version of that old game you loved" a compelling selling point for a game. Sure, being portable is nice and all, but not $30 nice.
I agree... I wouldn't re-buy a game I already own just because it's got some new feature. That's why I didn't get Link's Awakening DX. But the GBC has far more than just that... as for being picky, that's fine, but don't keep it from letting you try some new things... (like Warlocked, Tilt n Tumble, or Bionic Commando...) I got Bionic Commando: EF kind of by accident, as I wanted a GBC game to play on the trip we were about to take and they didn't have anything I REALLY wanted, so I got this one... but it's one of the best accidental purchases I ever made, for sure! I immediately loved it, and still do. Which is why when I saw Bionic Commando GB used last December I got it immediately. :)