Tendo City

I can't wait to get my hands on this system. And to think that a Sony game system launch would have so many high-quality games available at launch. Compare that to the DS which in so many months has barely a handful of games worth paying $30-40 for. I really hope Nintendo doesn't fall too far behind Sony, I really do.

Anyway, on to the screens!

Wipeout Pure




TRON GET!



Twisted Metal: Head-On





I think I'll be getting Wipeout, MG Acid, and Lumines at launch. If I can afford them.

Not quite PS2 quality, but it still looks pretty good. I won't be getting a PSP at launch, because the price is too high. I'd like to get one eventually though.

Yeah, those initial statements that the PSP graphics are between DC and PS2 quality look to be correct. Those aren't as good looking as current games. It is the best looking portable, though, so it's still got that... but it doesn't match the current gen major consoles.

These are definitely PS2-quality graphics. Have you guys forgotten how crappy the first batch of PS2 games looked?


RR V:






Tekken Tag Tournament:






Those games were ugly as hell. Worse than DC-quality graphics. Look at those Ridge Racer PS2 launch screens, and now look at the PSP launch version:






Doesn't look amazing, but it's certainly prettier than the PS2 launch version.


And look at Twisted Metal PSP vs. the PS2's Twisted Metal Black, which was a second generation PS2 title.


PSP:




PS2:






So yeah, the PSP definitely delivers PS2-quality graphics. Second-gen, at least.

Ahh, but how many FPS are these games running at? If it's 60 then no problem. The beauty of those games (Wipeout, Twisted Metal) lied in the absolute fluidity whilst playing them. Just going by the 'screen' I'd say that the PSP's Twisted Metal didn't look on par to the PS2's Twisted Metal, but that's based off my memory of the game in motion. Those pictures may not actually represent accurately the final beauty of the games, in a way similar to my next point..

btw, did you ever play Tekken Tag Tournament? Those screens you posted were terrible.. The game in motion looked, and still does to this day look absolutely gorgeous.

The only one I'd certainly say looks better than the PS2 version is Ridge Racer. I mean, come on, they didn't even implement anti-aliasing in the PS2 game, even though they did in another launch PS2 game (TTT).

On a side note, it's good to see Wipeout's art style is a beautiful as ever. Fusion was a massively underrated game this generation. Probably my second favourite racing game behind Burnout 2/3.

PSP will be a worthwhile investment. :)

I was hoping someone would say that.

Yes, those PS2 games look better in motion... buuuut so do the PSP games! Like, duh. Both games run at a nice framerate. Definitely not under 30.

Quote:Yes, those PS2 games look better in motion... buuuut so do the PSP games!

Well yah, I figured that.

Quote:Definitely not under 30.

But are they 60? :)

Well, effectively, yes it is that simple. When you double the frames per second, you're doubling the polygons per second, you're doubling the textures per second, doubling the particles per second. That is of course, unless you halve the total polygon count, etc. :)

Regardless (for all I know, they may well be 60fps..), they are amazing looking screens and I can't wait to play the games. :) I'd love to see what all those particles flying about in the TM screens look like in motion. :)

........PSP SUCKS!

*nude dancing*

Indeed. 250 clams is more than I'd pay for a console, let alone a portable. Even negating the price difference, I see more innovative uses for the DS than with the PSP. The PSP is a fancy, souped up Game Boy, while the DS can offer so much more than that, and anyone who's played Wario Ware: Touched can attest to the wide range of abilities the DS hardware gives the player.

Grabbing at straws. $250 for that bundle is quite a good deal. The power of the machine is comparable to any home console, and it has a nice range of games.

Quote:The PSP is a fancy, souped up Game Boy, while the DS can offer so much more than that, and anyone who's played Wario Ware: Touched can attest to the wide range of abilities the DS hardware gives the player.

The wide-range of the abilities of the DS hardware is limited entirely to the developers use of that hardware. If it's not put good use it ends up as a failed gimmick, with the DS ending up like a souped (is that even the right spelling? It just doesn't seem right..) Game Boy.

I don't know. I just can't see how many revolutionary concepts and games will be made due to the touch screen. Then again, I haven't exactly been keeping up to date on the machine, anyone care to enlighten me?

I don't know if you care for Wario Ware games, but the latest installment, Touched, for the DS offers up over 150 unique ways of implementing the touch screen (not to mention the microphone as well). Things like rolling up a snowball, turning a large ball to find Warios face, moving a hand around the screen trying to catch falling rings, throwing a bowling ball at pins, and steering Earth through a scrolling space-shooter kind of scenario similar to R-Type, except the screne moves vertically are all excellent uses for the touch screen and make a game like Wario Ware great. I can see more great things in the future too, Nintendo's last bastion of hope is it's handheld market, and it won't let it go down without a hell of a fight.

You don't know that. For all you know they might go down with as much utter indifference and probable delusion that they seemed to suffer on the home market. ;) Not that they're completely down in that market, yet. But they DO have a fight on their hands.

A lot of those things you mentioned really don't sound so appealing. My girlfriend plays a touch-screen game at the arcade with lots of little games like that while I whittle my time away playing Tekken.. I'd hardly call that exciting use of the touch screen, but whatever..

Wario Ware and Feel the Magic are some of the craziest games ever made and I attribute at least some of that to the touch screen. So far though we haven't gotten anything that's made such a great use of the touch screen that it's blown me away, but I'm sure we'll get something like that eventually.

Wario Ware was done before though. It's essentially unchanged. It does make good use of the touch screen, but not to the extent that a DS game should. It doesn't show why the dual, touch screen setup is so great. I believe there's great potential, but we've yet to see it.

Quote:Well, effectively, yes it is that simple. When you double the frames per second, you're doubling the polygons per second, you're doubling the textures per second, doubling the particles per second. That is of course, unless you halve the total polygon count, etc.

It's not nearly that simple. Metroid Prime, for instance, would not look twice as good in every respect as it currently does if it got its framerate chopped in half. If it were that simple and straight-forward then all games would run at 30fps since they would look so much better that way. It makes a difference, certainly, but programming games doesn't come close to being that simple.

Well, essentially, if Metroid Prime was downgraded to 30fps then yes, they could double the polygon count (etc.).

Which is why a lot of games DO run soley at 30fps and don't attempt higher than that, as they'd prefer to look pretty in screenshots than fluid in motion. It's something that (in most cases) just represents to me a poor attitude of videogame developers. IMO, all games should run at 60fps, regardless of how much the static screenshots might suffer because of it.

There are some exceptions of course. A game like Splinter Cell would be quite difficult to run at 60fps (on current hardware..) due to it's advanced lighting techniques. But with that possible exception, I would GLADLY take a drop in textures and polygons to have a much more fluid framerate.

30fps is pretty fluid... yeah, 60 is better, but 30 is fine. It's when it starts actually getting low... below 20, for sure... that the framerate becomes a problem. Or when it frequently goes up and down dramatically.

As for Wario Ware, that's a crazy and awesome series... great fun, definitely.

Quote:Well, essentially, if Metroid Prime was downgraded to 30fps then yes, they could double the polygon count (etc.).

Which is why a lot of games DO run soley at 30fps and don't attempt higher than that, as they'd prefer to look pretty in screenshots than fluid in motion. It's something that (in most cases) just represents to me a poor attitude of videogame developers. IMO, all games should run at 60fps, regardless of how much the static screenshots might suffer because of it.

There are some exceptions of course. A game like Splinter Cell would be quite difficult to run at 60fps (on current hardware..) due to it's advanced lighting techniques. But with that possible exception, I would GLADLY take a drop in textures and polygons to have a much more fluid framerate.

If game engines were as flexible as you are suggesting then there would be no need for talented programmers in the industry. All you'd have to do is double everything over and over, optimizing things for each new hardware. If a game pushes 5 million poylgons per second at 60 fps, you are not going to be able to double the poly count at a steady 30 fps. Now I'm not a programmer myself but I work closely with one on the games that we're making and I know a number of programmers who are either working on getting a job in the industry or are already making games for people like Rockstar. For instance, we're using a simple 3d engine for our upcoming platformer (though you won't be able to tell that it's 3D, much like Four Swords Adventures), and my friend (who built the engine from scratch) has shown me some tests that he's done so far that gives me an indication of what kind of limitations we're working with, and how it all works. He gave me a realistic poly and texture "count" and I actually asked him if it could all be doubled with the framerate halved, because I thought as you do. His answer was of course "NO". It's not nearly that simple, though we wish it were. If you want me to get into more detail I could ask him to write up an explanation for you. :)

Hudson you dwarf. 250 bucks for a portable is reasonable? The graphics aren't leaps and bounds over the DS, in fact it's probably right around the same ballpark in terms of effects and polys on screen with consistent fps. But regardless, both systems can create a portable 3-D gaming experience one of them has the added bonus of being a PDA like device along with wireless networking and multiplayer, a rumored cell phone attachment and the touch screen which allows virtually limitless options to the designers but also to the game players. The idea of two screens means you can have limitless scenarios. it's already apparent that the fundamental idea of the touch screen with a second independent screen is just damn cool and its something that will be busted wide open in the coming titles.

In castlevania DS you have to draw different pentagram types on the screen in order to finish off a boss to 'seal' it away. I've read about RPG's where the entire menu interface is drag and drop and point and click making it super smooth. it's intuitive and that phrase gets passed around alot, but this is a really good idea.

And to top it all off, the system with more ability costs about 100 bucks less. I've seen places around here selling DS bundles for 145 and just the DS with first hunt for 100 flat. Plus I know you've seen the 3-D games for DS in dev, they look as good as anything the PSP is doing.

Sony hit the market with the ps1 for 350 bucks, in some places it was 400 (so was the sega saturn). The ps2 hit the market at a 250 price point, sometimes 300. All sony's doing is following trend, if they became number one by selling systems at outragous prices for atleast two years before taking it down, they'll apply it to anything they're selling. Including a portable, they're just waiting to see if people will bite on; if they dont, that price will hit the 150 range faster than you can say quarterly demographics presentations convention.

You show me where that extra 100-150 bucks comes in to play and shows its worth with the psp. as far as I see it the 150 DS is the better deal. Unless nintendo drops it and fucks us with the gba2 bullshit. I mean ultimately with the ds you have the ability to port over n64 games with higher frame rates and added multiplayer and make original games with higher poly counts, more detailed coding etc. so what's the point in having a portable system that goes beyond that? do we need a 1080i progressive scan high res 128 bit system that can display photoreal graphics on a four inch screen? am I the only one that thinks that's stupid? I played perfect dark on a high res 3 inch screen 'watchman' which is a small portable tv you can wear around your neck and i couldn't see shit, I couldnd't even read the text on the screen without shoving the watchman in to my eyeball. holy shit i'm ranting my ass off

imma go back to work now (drinking)

Private Hudson Wrote:You don't know that. For all you know they might go down with as much utter indifference and probable delusion that they seemed to suffer on the home market. Not that they're completely down in that market, yet. But they DO have a fight on their hands.

Nintendo (worldwide) has more earnings per year than sony's computer entertainment (worldwide) or microsoft's home console market (again worldwide). But it doesn't come from gamecube, it comes from their portable market... which is the entire market. Nintendo didnt think they had a fight with:

Gamegear
Turbografix 16
Game.com
Wonderswan
Neogeo pocket/color
Nomad

So i doubt they're shaking in their boots with the psp. It is after all, to nintendo, just 'another portable trying to gain space on the market'.

all of those systems were swallowed whole by nintendo. In japan, in europe and the states. They never had a chance in hell really, even when the wonderswan announced that it had exclusive rights to portable final fantasy games, nintendo still ate it alive. sony's portable is going in to a market that has never been shared by any other company for more than 2 years before being forced to retire because nintendo released a new game for a portable and drove hardware and software sales up 70% in a week before it drops back down to the same rate as ps2's being sold in japan, many times going over that number.

"...not down in the market, yet"

it doesn't take a marketing genius to see that a system that jumps between 3rd and 2nd in the world surviving soley on first party software while completely owning an entire corner of the industry and while capatalizing on high profit margins each year to put themselves on a cash flow that no other company of their type can understand (much less implement) is the least likely of the three major brand name consoles to bow out of the industry. Microsoft is only now just starting to see any real profit margin with their home console devision and sony's really only seeing their top shelf profit line in japan. But nintendo continues come out smelling like roses in every part of the world and have the financial statements to show it.

There was just a cool article about it at ign... or cube europe. I forget. One of those places, go see if its still there.

You really think that the DS and PSP are about equal in terms of graphical prowess? You really believe that? Look, I'm more of a DS fan than most of the people here and I think the system has incredible potential (that has yet to be tapped), and if I worked for a big game design studio I would definitely prefer to make a DS game, but the PSP blows it out of the water in terms of graphical capabilities. The DS is roughly as powerful as the PS1, and the PSP is roughly as powerful as the PS2. And the large (it's friggin huge in person) screen size of the PSP makes that difference even greater.

If you can't notice the sizeable difference between these two versions of Ridge Racer then you need to get your eyes checked, bubba.


















The difference should be pretty clear. ;)

And before you go "well Ridge Racer DS is one of the uglier DS games", the same can be said about the PSP version as well. It's nowhere near the best-looking PSP launch title.


And you can't be serious if you think that the PSP is not going to be serious competition for Nintendo. The system has been selling toe-to-toe with the DS in Japan right now, and for the first time ever, Sony has the more impressive software lineup for a new system. There are very few DS games worth buying right now, and the NA PSP launch is already going to have a more impressive lineup than everything Nintendo has brought out since its launch last November. If Nintendo doesn't start releasing some AAA DS titles that do more than offer crappy analogue emulation then I have no doubt that Sony will destroy the DS and take the number one spot, at least until Nintendo releases a true GBA successor. For the sake of innovation and fun, I sincerely hope that we see a slew of awesome, innovative DS games that really put the capabilities of that hardware to use, and soon.

Comparing those screenshots... the PSP game definitely looks better, but not by as much as it probably should when you compare the hardware...

You're right, though (OB1) that this is probably Nintendo's greatest challenge since the Game Gear. None of the other ten or so failed handhelds did very well, but that one competed... even if it didn't take first. The PSP definitely will compete. It won't take first overall (vs. both the GBA and DS), but it should be able to survive... which means less profits for Nintendo but perhaps more innovation so it's not all bad... though with how great the GBA has been without competition I can't say Nintendo really has much room for improvement on the game quality front. :)

Game Gear? The Game Gear only shipped 1.78 million units in Japan during its entire lifespan, and as of February 20th roughly 1 million PSP units have shipped, and have been selling out like mad.

PSP hardware has been outselling DS hardware most weeks since its Japanese launch, and Sony has promised something over a million units shipped for the U.S. launch this month, which will most certainly sell out quickly. Just the combined U.S. and Japanese hardware figures within 18 months time will likely match the total units shipped wordwide of the Game Gear's entire run (about 8.65 million). So comparing the PSP to the Game Gear is like comparing the PS2 to the Dreamcast.

Anyone who stills thinks that the PSP is just another Game Gear or Wonderswan is completely ignorant of these numbers.

All sales figures should be compared to other contemporary figures too you know not just ones now. How many did the GB sell in those couple of years when the GG was competitive?

Anyway, the TurboExpress, Game.com, Nomad, and almost certainly N-Gage were total failures. The Wonderswan, NeoGeo Pocket/Pocket Color, and Game Gear, though, did better... didn't threaten the GB, but did better. Why not compare the PSP to that? Seems appropriate. Though there are significant differences, of course, in things like how the PSP is aiming at a noticably older audience than any previous portable.

Will the PSP do better than any of the previous challengers? It has a good chance to, yes. The Game Gear had too many drawbacks, the NGPC had Neo-Geo die on it while it was doing pretty well, and the others... well, they didn't matter much... :D Sony has the resources to keep it going and technology has advanced, making high-end handhelds much more viable...

But to really challenge Nintendo in handhelds Sony will have to answer questions like 'how large really is the adult market for portables?' and 'Is there any hope for a console as expensive (and with as short battery life as -- adults might be more used to short battery lives, but kids have Gameboys...) as the PSP to get very far with the children's market?'...

Just about every single gamestop and eb across the country is filled up with first and second shipment pre-orders of the PSP. So yeah, I think there's a pretty decent market for high-quality portable gaming systems.

If you still think the PSP isn't going to be more than just another failed challenger to the might Gameboy then you're in for a real surprise.

It's amazing how long some people can hold onto delusions...

These charts speak for themselves:

Quote:From: Feb 14 - 20, 2005

PlayStation 2 38,954 432,091
PlayStation Portable 38,314 400,669
Nintendo DS 22,363 328,042
GameBoy Advance SP 10,849 148,726
GameCube 3,256 55,428
GameBoy Advance 399 4,412
Xbox 295 3,595

Quote:From: Feb 7 - 13, 2005

PlayStation Portable 45,972 362,355
PlayStation 2 39,889 393,137
Nintendo DS 26,205 305,679
GameBoy Advance SP 10,372 137,877
GameCube 4,499 52,172
GameBoy Advance 573 4,022
Xbox 262 3,300

The PSP has been selling in many weeks better than the DS, GBA SP, and GBA combined. Game Gear my ass.

You might not remember it, but the Game Gear actually was a credible system for a while... it's not like it was a TurboGrafx to the GB's SNES or something. :)

Oh, the PSP does seem to be doing better than that. But saying 'like the GG' isn't saying 'total failure'. It's saying 'success for a while, but Nintendo wins out in the end'.

Which is, of course, what we should hope Nintendo does here too...

In case you forgot, the Dreamcast was also a credible system for a while. But that's Sega. The PSP is already doing much better than the GG ever did.

I don't think Nintendo is going to fail, I just think that they're going to lose the number one spot sooner than a lot of people here think. And just like the home console arena their main hope will be a niche market. Kinda like apple.

And don't think that's a bad thing. I would be perfectly content with Nintendo becoming the true "Nintendo Difference". Making games that can only be played on Nintendo systems so people that already have XBox 2's, PSPs, PS3s, and whatever will still want a Revolution or DS. That I could live with. But Nintendo as king of the market once again? Never gonna happen.

Quote:In case you forgot, the Dreamcast was also a credible system for a while. But that's Sega. The PSP is already doing much better than the GG ever did.

It's better to leave the sales analysis to AFTER the console comes out... :) Sure, it definitely has potential (and probably will) be the most successful challenger to Gameboy, but given that it isn't even out yet here...

Quote:I don't think Nintendo is going to fail, I just think that they're going to lose the number one spot sooner than a lot of people here think. And just like the home console arena their main hope will be a niche market. Kinda like apple.

And don't think that's a bad thing. I would be perfectly content with Nintendo becoming the true "Nintendo Difference". Making games that can only be played on Nintendo systems so people that already have XBox 2's, PSPs, PS3s, and whatever will still want a Revolution or DS. That I could live with. But Nintendo as king of the market once again? Never gonna happen.

Obviously, I don't agree about the handheld market. Oh, it's certainly possible, but will it actually happen? I'm not so sure. At least, not soon. I think on the handheld market Nintendo has a better chance with 'unique' consoles like the DS than they would on the home systems... and other factors going for them, like price and a focus on the younger age group that Sony does not have, assure them of long-term success at least.

Quote:It's better to leave the sales analysis to AFTER the console comes out... Sure, it definitely has potential (and probably will) be the most successful challenger to Gameboy, but given that it isn't even out yet here...

Wait until the March/April numbers come in.

Quote:Obviously, I don't agree about the handheld market. Oh, it's certainly possible, but will it actually happen? I'm not so sure. At least, not soon. I think on the handheld market Nintendo has a better chance with 'unique' consoles like the DS than they would on the home systems... and other factors going for them, like price and a focus on the younger age group that Sony does not have, assure them of long-term success at least.

Nintendo is trying to target the same people with the DS that Sony is with the PSP: Adults and non-gamers. We'll see which one wins out. I already know the answer to that, but I'll let the numbers do the talking...

Mostly, but Nintendo, being Nintendo, aims at the children's market strongly... the DS does so more than the PSP for sure.

Several people at Nintendo, inlcuding Reggie and Iwata, have stated that they're targeting the DS to an older and non-gamer crowd. Have you seen their European commercials? Holy crap!

But we've also got a low price point and stuff like Pokemon games coming up... Nintendo is marketing older, but the actual GAMES are classic Nintendo fare, it seems to me.

Nintendogs was made specifically for female non-gamers. That's one of their big upcoming releases. Nintendo asked Sega to make Feel the Magic for an older audience as well.

True... so there are some, but there are a few GC games for older gamers as well... the majority are the same as ever.

Nintendo disagrees with you.

I'm looking at the substance of what they are releasing... and it's pretty clear...

Sorry OB1, about the framerate thing, I was talking in ideals, and got carried away. Not taking into account engine constrains, RAM, cache, the whole kit n' kaboodle. Point still stands, as you agreed, that if two games were to look exactly the same in screenshots, but one ran at twice the framerate, then it would be smoother that would be far more impressive on a technical and aesthetic level.

lazyfatbum, I'd love to agree with you, but as OB1 pointed out, the PSP is outselling the DS and GBA in Japan right now, and is still sold out across the country with no signs of slowing up. And remember, that price point does come in a bundle, not just for the system.

I really think that that is perhaps going to be Sony's strategy for their next home console launch. Lord knows that they're going to be making a massive loss on each system sold, and with 2 other systems launching at the same time, it's hard to imagine them charging massive sums of money for the PS3.. I'd predict an accessory and/or game bundle. I would also expect MS and Nin to follow suit.

True, but the PSP is playing catch up right now. Look at the DS software sales Vs. PSP. Nintendo has a much higher installed base. Anything can happen, but looking at today's stats and not yesterday's aint gonna give you a clear idea of the whole picture yunno?

If the DS does well over the course of its life, then we can expect more portables to use double screens and touch screens. There's rumor of the Revolution using a touch screen built in to the controller... I dunno how in the hell that's going to work. :D And the GBA2... well, I just dont know how to feel about the GBA2, it isn't official yet, but to have another portable right behind one that was just released is just goofey.

Iwata has said over and over that the Revolution will not use any sort of touch screen technology, so for what that's worth...

And lazy, the DS hasn't been out that much longer than the PSP, so it's not nearly as far ahead as you think (in Japan, at least. in the US it'll take longer but I'm sure Sony will catch up within a year or less). As of February 27th, Sony has sold 442,536 PSPs in 2005 and Nintendo has sold 354,803 DS' in 2005. It's been outselling the DS for several weeks now, and the installed userbase is edging closer and closer.

I think the DS is still ahead of the PSP in Japan by over 500k, maybe as high as 1 million. It's been several days since the latest numbers came out so I don't remember exactly how much it is.

Even with PSP shortages in Japan (according to Sony), the PSP is selling better than both the DS and GBA. DS hardware sales have dropped drastically since the PSP came out.

Sony ALWAYS has a shortage, OB1. They've never NOT had a shortage.

That's because their systems sell like crack!

The DS sold like crazy the first month or two and Nintendo didn't have a shortage.

They were able to reuse some GBA parts, though. And Nintendo is simply better at this than Sony is.

Quote:Sorry OB1, about the framerate thing, I was talking in ideals, and got carried away. Not taking into account engine constrains, RAM, cache, the whole kit n' kaboodle. Point still stands, as you agreed, that if two games were to look exactly the same in screenshots, but one ran at twice the framerate, then it would be smoother that would be far more impressive on a technical and aesthetic level.

Of course. But Wipeout, at least, runs smoothly.

This is the thread you were thinking of, DJ.